Gratitude and appreciation is a wonderful place to be. Enjoy the journey.
Are there other people like me ? Amazed by their low cost system :)
Are there other people so much amazed by a relatively low cost system , they consider that is not a stopgap but instead a minimally satisfying ectasy... Each day i am amazed by my speakers and headphone... Am i deaf? Am i ignorant of high end ? Be assured that i know better system with higher acoustic experience and more refined exist ...
My point is an experienced and felt minimal threshold of acoustic qualities and well done and well realized and well manifested acoustic factors exist for me and are at play, for the price invested; so much so , i consider any upgrade way less tempting and if possible would be more, way more , costlier to appear as a real upgrade in quality... For sure an upgrade of part at low cost unbeknowst to me is possible but i must live with what i have for now but i feel no frustration at all. 😊
Am i the only one deluded in this way or enlightened in this way ? Pick your choice of word.... 😎
186 responses Add your response
You know how to read then it is written :
Now if you are Bill Gates you already know that "relatively low cost" can be 1000, bucks or 5,000 bucks because it is an expression relating to the usual American income or average one around 60,000 bucks... From all that i deduce for evident reason that not knowing that you are not Bill Gates...😊
|
Sorry but you are deluded by marketing audiophilia... No acoustician need the opinion of a crowd of audiophiles, they need their ears and basic knowledge... I am not an acoustician but i know some basic and tuned my own room... ( with 100 Helmholtz resonators tuned mechanically and i modified the porthole of my speakers and their waveguide and i modified my headphone then... I dont need your opinion about my system limits and qualities i already know them ... Guess how ? 😁 You know enough about me now to know the right answer, but i wll write it to spare you heavy thinking : acoustic experiments... And i will add that a good sound is not the result of an audiophilia marketing contest , it could be yes, but i dont need to participate... A minimal acoustic satisfaction threshold exist where all factors in spite of their measured and audible limitations exhibit a very high S.Q. experience with a relatively low price tag... A maximum acoustic satisfaction threshold exist too and you need a dedicated acoustic room anyway to reach this target also... The gear price tags if synergy is there matter less in the two case : minimal or maximal satisfaction threshold.. Guess why ? 😊 In conclusion my system is not amazing for all in the absolute, it is amazing taken into account the ratio between cost and S.Q. and taking into account the resulting balance between each acoustics experienced concepts describing the experience . ( Timbre and immersiveness if we pick the two most general one)
|
The goal of this hobby, the journey is first knowledge and fun mechanical and electrical and acoustic experiments , then when the minimal satisfaction acoustic threshold is reached , it is music listening in sound ectasy... Upgrading race without budget limit is reserved to those who dont have the time for experiments nor the room and with unlimited pocket... They do not captivate me nor the reviewers speaking to them... I prefer reading about acoustics... Not mere room acoustic but now acoustics with an "s" ... Try Dr. Edegar Choueiri and Toole Books...Try discussion and controversies between acoustician in discussion... Etc... |
Most people who claim that dont know what is acoustics... They had never experimented before with acoustics co0ncepts in a dedicated room and they have never modify their speakers or headphone by experiments... To prove this fact , take the reviewer Jay , he just give a video, in the last month about a very high end possible speakers, and speaking about buying it or not as possibility he confessed that recently he created an acoustic dedicated room , after years of buying high end gear pieces, and he confessed sincerely , he is honest guy, that NOW the speakers must be picked for his room because now he had learned and understood how the room acoustic impact the system and he love his actual dedicated room ... In my experience the dedicated room acoustic impact as much as the choice of gear... Jay will not contradict me here...😊
Most audiophilia marketing of any piece of gear given as the solution conditioned the mind in this narrow road where purchasing money is primary over acoustic and even mechanical and basic electrical knowledge and can replace it...Most speakers sellers dont advise their customers to study acoustics before buying their piece and rarely will advise the customer after selling it ... guess why ? Many dont have the room nor the time to learn and experiment with this, and anyway why devalorizing the "miraculous" power of their purchase by advising a not so easy task of learning curve ?
|
In the opposite... If i had the money, i will had a dedicated room as i had and as i have now ( a smaller one though this time ) and a system with no cost limit... But i am not at all frustrated and i am in bliss with what i have... Why ? Because i know nevermind the cost of the system how to use acoustic, mechanical and electrical basic to reach the minimal acoustic satisfaction threshold, where i am now or if the money were unlimited i will target the maximal acoustical satisfaction threshold... These two thresholds had one thing in common : a rightfull experienced acoustic balance between all measurable acoustics factors...
Jay is the most known high end reviewer of audiogon... An honest person in my opinion ... Then not knowing the difference between these two acoustic threshold of satisfaction i spoke about and not knowing the necessary SAME BASIC KNOWLEDGE which will be necessary to reach them , which is the same exact knowledge , you accused me, without any malicious intent for sure, but by ignorance of despising High end products... Which only a fool can do , because even if pricing is debatable about high end , we must pay for qualitative superior deesign, period... But qualitative high end design need the same basic knowledge as low cost system to be installed and implemented the right way to reach the maximum acoustical satisfaction threshold anyway... Thank you for your kindness toward me... i love discussion though...😁😊 I am a retired old fool ...Then i had the time to learn since my retirement doing it full time...My dream was listening music with no sound frustration but not much money to invest only homemade solutions and time and a free room to use for experiments... I succeeded. And my post are here to motivate people creativity, nevermind their system price or quality level...If i could do it anyone can... But it is impossible without learning basic acoustics concepts... Sometimes many years ago now i understood why i was frustrated: the reason is our journey is about studying and experimenting , not a race to purchase to forgot and erase our frustrations about our system actual acoustic state ... I was right , i am no more frustrated... 😊 the minimal satisfaction acoustic threshold is not a stopgap by the way compared to the maximal one... The reason is simple . The maximal threshold and the minimal one are an acoustically balanced experience between all factors in their own compared acoustic ratio, even if the maximal one exceed in refinement the minimal one for sure...You cannot rival a Revel speakers set well embedded in his room with my modified small cost speakers so good they are and they are ...Only an idiot can claim that and i am not one... I dont even need to listen to Revel speakers to know that... I know how to embed ANY speakers... Understanding what is the relative balance between all acoustic factors at play as they can be experienced in a room dedicated to the speakers and specific ears is key here ...
|
It has to do with what your goals are. If you just want a system that gives you good sound and conveys the emotional content of the music, then you don't really need to spend that much money. If you want a system that gives you great sound, impresses you every time you listen, BLOWS AWAY other listeners and looks impressive, then you'll have to spend larger amounts of money. Even here the definition of large money is relative. |
You are completely right here....That was my goal....To be more precise i wanted a system/room able to give me the acoustic experience of each recording space of any album as it was in three dimensions as if the speakers never existed... I succeeded in my first acoustic room completely ... In my second acoustic smaller corner in my second home i succeeded partially because of the speakers size, but nevermind, it is good enough to reach almost ectasy , i compensated by creating a satisfying headphone system too this time to add too it... My headphone system is TOP and gave me an out of the head speakers experience with deep bass and natural timbre ( i always disliked headphones by the way then to pick the right one at low cost and learn how to modify it and optimize it is not easy at all , it takes me years and 9 headphones trials ) ... 😊
But you are not completely right here, the few people who listened my system were if not blown away because of the crazyness of my first acoustic room (100 tuned resonators and many other homemade devices) were impressed by the sound experience and the low cost of my system... knowledge and experiments takes us a long way it seems... |
The main reason I go to audio shows is so I can have a reference to compare my system to. You get to listen to expensive and professionally tuned systems and determine where your system stands. If you don't listen to other systems how could you possibly know? Highly recommended. One other point... In many cases there seems to be a belief that "if it costs more it must be better". This is completely false. This is where the imagination takes over and people will swear they hear great "jaw dropping" improvements just because it's expensive. The best example of this is a blind test in Spain where they had 30 audiophiles do a blind listening test of a $500 front end. A dirt cheap $200 Crown, class D amp, using the cheapest cables vs. a $12,000 front end. Conclusion of the test: 1/3 picked the cheap system...1/3 picked the expensive system ...1/3 couldn't tell a difference.
|
For sure in my 72 years of life i attend few showrooms and listend to some very good system...
The way a system is embedded matter more most of the times than the price tag of the system... And most people had no idea what is "timbre" or listener envelopment and sound source width and immersiveness conditions as experienced in a room where you can control the multidimensional parameters related to this acoustic concept and their experience... You cannot recognize or identify something, being it an acoustic factors among many other one, if you dont have the concept related to the phenomenon you must distinguish and act upon ... Then a crowd of average people will not do as crowd of acousticians... We must learn how to hear... We dont know how to hear.... It is an illusion created by marketing piece of gear and assuring the future customers that his choice of the brand was right to begin with because it was " his taste" ... We dont learn how to hear by purchasing 40 amplifiers, dacs and speakers... Sorry... I discovered that by accident years ago before studying and experimenting with acoustics because i had no money to buy my dreamed high cost gear system then i started experimenting with some acoustic concepts... To reach satisfaction i learned by these accidental and planned experiments and acoustic reading how to hear and what to hear and how to modify it varying some parameters in the room or in the system pieces... There is no other way.... purchasing will give you a possible better design but not necessarily a better experience on all counts... By the way as suggested by this video, i dont accept the idea that all audiophile claims are placebos and illusions as the objectivist test obsessed crowd claim... System design differences matter too ... We must pay for better design... it is a common place fact... But we must learn how to hear and what to hear... Most audiophiles as i was dont...It is necessary to experiment with the SAME PIECES OF GEAR for a long time if the gear synergy is there to begin with for sure and we must learn how to optimize it mechanically, electrically and acoustically to do this... If you change gear each 6 months it is impossible to learn ...😁 Learning about the difference between two amplifiers is not "learning acoustic experience" it is learning about design branded name ...Sellers must learn that, acoustician has no need to learn about 100 different amplifiers... 😊 I dont either... If i wanted to upgrade i will analyse the litterature concerning a better possible pieces of gear...I did that for my pieces of gear with success...
|
In my opinion you are completely right ... 😊 The pride and joy we must have as the experienced result of our own creativity exceed in duration by far most costlier upgrades... And sometimes as in my case the ultimate upgrade will exceed 15 times my actual 1000 bucks system value ... I dont need it even if it will be better for sure... Minimal acoustical satisfaction goes a long way... 😊 But many people dont understand what i spoke about... Because their system is too faulty and a stopgap they cannot know about the minimal and maximal satisfaction threshold differences.. We dont learn that by going to showroom where the room is never optimized , we learn that by learning in our own room experiments...
|
| Post removed |
I'm constantly delighted with the sound of my system, and quite proud of it's low cost compared to ....... I have nearly all restored vintage, as my virtual systems show: https://forum.audiogon.com/users/elliottbnewcombjr?_gl=1*x51yz6*_ga*ODgyNzE5NDc3LjE2OTg1MjM1MDg.*_ga_SR0PMVVEN1*MTcwOTY2MTg0MS4xMTcuMS4xNzA5NjY0NDg5LjIyLjAuMA.. Other types of Investments do come into play: Lucky with inheritances and gifts; asking and applying advice from members here or elsewhere; researching; 45 years experience; mr. fix it tools and skills; loving a 'great deal', i.e. working to recognize, find, pounce on a great deal for me or a friend; just dumb luck. I believe you ought to like something each time you look at it, whether in use or just there. I'm most proud of my Turntable with 3 Tonearms. Not only do I love using/hearing it, I marvel at the fact that I put it together for a total of $5,500.
JVC TT81 Quartz Direct Drive Spinner; JVC seven layer Plinth (with dust cover!); 12.5" tonearm (new, from Russia); Acos Lustre GST-801 Tonearm; Mission 774LC; Fidelity Research FRT-4 SUT; 3 Cartridges: MC,MM, Mono; Two New Phono Cables. Restored/Maintained Vintage Equipment in my office and garage/shop systems are also a source of joy and great memories of each piece acquired. |
Marvellous system great creativity,.... Thanks for posting elliottbnewcombjr I feel less alone.... 😊 Interesting virtual page : |
Shows/hotel rooms are terrible places to audit what some equipment is capable of. It is best that such audits happen in the houses of audiophiles with treated tweaked rooms.
The buffoon in the white coat getting high n mighty on the linked vid doesn’t seem to understand that there is a big difference in the test subject pool. For example, i have 5 violins, an instrument i’ve been closely associated with for 40+ years. I could play something on two of them and no one in the room would hear a difference between the 2 instruments. But, i sure as hell can...If you played some violin solos on different equipment, it is fairly easy for me to pin point which is which. Play something else like....some twangy country or Diana Krall squealing away and i could give a rats behind on what i heard or not, failed a blind test or not. It would be silly to say that every test subject out there is trained the same way, has the same ears. The typical "audiophile" is maybe not the best test subject if you wanna get hardcore with the blind test (play it to the bone). |
For sure you are right in my book... 😊 Discarding all audiophiles with blind test is as silly as approving all of them ... We must learn how to hear and how to listen all our life...Especially if we are not acousticians or maestros or skilled musicians...
|
There is a certain caliber of professional out there, i.e., their entire livelihoods on a daily basis are dependent on how trained and astute their ears are. Here is an example of an individual who would make for a good test subject...if vocals are being tested perhaps (would translate to equipment just fine). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MH6_Lk9E7gE&t=616s I am merely a hobbyist musician w.r.t one specific instrument, i.e., my livelihood is not dependent on it. I know many other professional musicians (golden eared dudes) who are extremely skilled at what they do. When a list of such test subjects are compiled, the ASR white coat buffoon running blind tests with some agenda will be put in his place. Do you really think a group of 70+ year old audiophiles/gear tweakers have the same ability to participate in blind tests like pro musicians and the like? It is simply not possible. The late Ken Ishiswata could pass blind tests on high enough hires sample rates that no one could discern. Does every forum audiophile have that type of training/hearing? No, he doesn't. |
It is what i said above and my opinion too... Hearing imply a training musical as well as acoustical... Buying 40 amplifiers means nothing ...
|
It is my point exactly... I will only add that many people with no acoustics training save few ready made panels had no idea about the impact of dedicated acoustics...
|
Good point that will be useful for low budget people as me ...Thanks 😊
|
My complete setup as is - e.i.: with main speakers, power amps and DAC/preamp bought used - has set me back about the same as the retail price of my DAC/preamp when new, which is to say around $12k. If all components had been acquired new the price would have sat in the $30-35k range, so effectively I paid about 1/3 of that. My subs are DIY (cabs built by a cabinet maker), and would've been significantly more expensive if preassembled and all. For what my system does sonically at $12k I dare say it's a bargain. With a Danish-developed reference DAC and great sounding british studio amps, both of which few if no audiophiles know about (or cares to), it's a below-radar component approach that serve both the pro cinema-segment main speakers and horn-based subs very well - all actively configured at that, and that are quite unorthodox in audiophilia as well. Coming down to it it's fun seeking out gear and design approaches that nobody really expects to perform well in domestic environments, and not least gratifying seeing their faces when they're proved wrong. However the goal was never to surprise anyone, but rather to simply follow the paths that lead to great sound reproduction - irrespective of conventions. |
What means a Rhetorical question for you ? I asked other people impressions about their own relatively low cost system and their potential satisfaction ... Some answered to my question which was not rhetorical at all and i thank them for their testimonies ... when i wrote :
It was sarcasm directed toward people like you it seems, whom i know will not like my sincere question and will take it negatively as a claim against their own opinion about what means " high end " and his relation to price and acoustics evaluation and experience ... It seems i was right ...😁 You came with this post i guess will come ... Some had taken my questions as sincere one and answered rightfully and i had thank them ...It is always conforting not being alone even if your are a free spirit... But it seems you take my questions ONLY as a provocation... You are not even wrong because my claim could be upsetting then i add : am i deaf or am i ignorant of high end ? as a sarcasm...😊 You took the bait... If you had read me sincerely you will have read the important distinction i made between my low cost system minimal acoustic satisfaction level and threshold and maximal one ... Then there is no pretense in me , only the underlining fact i surmissed and underlined about the importance of electrical, mechanical and acoustical controls of any system/room AT ANY PRICE ... Then take your rhetorical accusation and keep them with you in the refrigerator ... We can enjoy relatively good audiophile experience with a relatively low cost system if we know what we do...Even sonic ectasy as i enjoy ...
Is it forbidden to ask for other people confirmation about our own experience only because it does not suit your unfounded opinion ?😊 my own opinion is grounded in basic knowledge , it is not a claim throw to the wind , a rhetorical question; it is a question asking also and mainly for what is other people experience ...
Anybody know that a high end design is better... It is a common place fact... Not much people know that we can go toward high satisfaction levels with a relatively low cost system... This is not common place fact as the other one is ... Then your innuendos and accusation toward my thread are rhetorical , my answers and claims are not ...
|
It makes no difference for sure what you will claim about my experience... As what i will claim about my experience will not change anything about yours either .. We are grown adult and the thread matter is not a technical information question about a piece of specific gear... But is this means that we cannot discuss about the question i asked because i am being curious about others opinion ? 😊 😊 Are you the arbiter and censor of acceptable thread rhetoric ? Is any thread here must exist only if the question asked will modify our own experience ? is it not a bit excessive as demand ?
Sorry dude but i like people opinions and experiences and some already answered ... And i thank them... You dont like that?
😊 Sorry ....but each one lives here ... Stay rhetorical... or explain yourself ...
|
It seems the fact that someone is happy and know why he is happy with a low cost well embedded system hurt some people feeling... Happily i am not alone in this situation ... It seems ..😊 I invite any other people happy with a relatively low cost system to testify and explain why it is so , if they can do it for the benefit of others... This will be called a useful and interesting audio rhetoric .... Each case will be different for sure...We are all different... And this is not a rhetorical fact... 😊 |
I love my low cost office system. I repurposed speaker boxes, installed seas dual concentric drivers with recommended crossovers powered by a used Hegel H160 integrated amp and stream via a blue sound node. I recently added a small sealed REL subwoofer for a little deeper bass. I look at my computer screen, 12 O'clock with speakers behind me, 4 feet back, one at 4 O'clock and one at 8 O'clock.I have some egg crate sound deadening foam mounted on the wall behind my computer screen. The room is only 9' X 13' giving it a cozy, comfy feel. This system gives me so much enjoyment that It's hard to pry myself away to go to work. Part of it may be a clear head in the AM, really good dark roast coffee and cream. I have a much higher-end system in my living room, but part of the enjoyment of the office system is knowing I didn't spend much to achieve such a level of enjoyment. Of course many would not be impressed and some would scorn my setup which is A-okay with me!
|
We will like a bit more details...if you could ... 😊
interesting post by 61falcon thanks... As you i discovered that a low cost system can be very good for enjoying music , especially if much of our creativity is invested in it... I modified completely my low cost speakers, i disliked them a lot after purchase for 10 years as i put them almost in a bin trash or relegated them on a second computer work; now i can live with them without any frustration this is really audiophile for the poor, acoustics basic knowledge helped me a lot here in modifying the rear porthole design completely and the tweeter waveguide + others "tin foil" hat tricks... My Tannoy gold dual concentric which i owned 40 years with a way more refined design never gave me the same enjoyment. Why ? Because nevermind the price and quality, any speakers must be used in an acoustically optimized way in a room ... Alas! when i had the Tannoy i was knowing nothing about acoustic... My actual 100 bucks small speakers gave me more right now even with a less refine design because of this knowledge... Even if the design of the Tannoy were superior in all acoustic factors on paper... Then owning high end speakers is not enough , we must learn how to embed the speakers mechanically, electrically and acoustically ... And this is my main point ...😊 |
I have a couple of cheap systems that cost around $5000 each. They sound good, but they don’t come close in sound quality to my dedicated system where my cables alone cost more than my own her systems. IMO, the op created this post only to hear him talk. We all know you have a $500 system that betters $500k systems, just like older posts from MC claiming his $2000 speakers bettered Wilson $800k speakers. |
Wow, lots of brow beating and chest thumping here. Here’s the deal, it doesn’t matter what is spent on a system. If you enjoy it, then it’s all good. No explanation or justification required. But don’t judge someone who might spend more (however much) as a person sold on hype and ignorance. Our systems are individual things to make us happy. That’s all. |
Went through a few posts here and the only conclusion I came to is that you are offended by whatever words others choose. This contradicts the following statement you make:
If you are content with your system, you should really not care for what others think about it. I checked your current system and it does not show a specific room or audio equipment setup. I love my system as much as you like yours. You enjoy your system and let me enjoy mine. Have fun! |
If you know of costlier systems, heard costlier systems but come back to your own and still get goosebumps? That’s all that matters. It’s all relative, and it’s all a matter of experimentation and personal taste. Not to mention the psychoacoustic effect that can blend so much of the overall experience into serious and personal bliss. Tonal balance, great soundstage, impact, realism and true system synergy need not be hyper exorbitant nor unobtainable. And the journey can be fun if we let it be… enjoy the music 🙏🏼 |
I think some people miss my main points : Audiophile minimal satisfaction may be enough for most at least for me because of basic knowledge and creativity... it is not enough to own a 100,000 bucks system... We must learn how to embed it in our house/room for our ears and how to optimize it ... This is my point... This is valid even for a 1000 bucks system optimization as mine is... We need acoustic , electrical and mechanical basic and this matter as much for S.Q. as high quality design of the gear pieces ( this is my main personal discovery and this does not means that all gear design at all cost levels are equal with one another for sure)
I dont care about what people think about my system , if i would have care do you think i would had posted my first virtual pages where i received insults for my room acoustic disposition and my experiments or do you think i would had post my second system gear pieces which are low cost pieces anyway with pride after selling my first house/room ? Do you catch how and why your supposition are completely wrong about me ? 😊 But i care and i am curious about other people experience and opinions about their own low cost system here ... some had already given interesting answers... this was my goal... I never need any approval man... But i like others experience posts ... I have more pride of my two systems S.Q. ratio/price i myself created at low cost than any system at any cost ( which systems as we can see in others people virtual page for sure may or will be better potential S.Q. by design; only an idiot will claim that my low cost speakers are top of audio, i never claimed that stupidity; but only an idiot will claim that after my modification they are not way better than before as they were in the box ) ... Then take any opinion about my system as i take it myself ... Rain on my duck back ... 🦆
High end exist because higher design cost more... This is a common -place fact...Period. I never contested this fact... It will be relatively easy for me to upgrade my system tomorrow but i dont want to invest 15 times the money i had invested already... My actual system is audiophile level and satisfy me completely with his limitations for sure but no evident acoustic defect, it is a balanced design because of my creativity... ...I explained why above and what i means by that...
Why then my thread seems so disturbing for some ? 😊 if you dont have a satisfying low cost system to speak about in this thread stay mute instead of accusing me of being unsecure in myself... You are unsecure yourself attacking my motives and intention then dont project that attitude on me... Audiophile experience is grosso modo defined by acoustic knowledge more than just price tags sorry if you dont know that yet... Dont kill the messenger think twice...
|
@mahgister ,,,,*G*elbow nudge* Well, I suspected you were not alone...looking upforum. definitely not. ;) And...I'm happy to admonish that if you're delusional (or merely 'tripping'). you've got a 'fellow traveler' (or 'trip sitter') only as far as a keyboard and screen.... ;) @p05129 ....gently, sir....I was admonished OUAT that a small dogs' bite can be just as painful as that of a larger one.... ....and strangers can be more of a surprise that you expected. 🤔 I've a sneaking suspicion that many who populate A'gon would prefer...nay, Strive for 'better', if not beyond rationality and the agonized squeaks of a credcard.... There are no 'audio clubs' in my locale....I've looked about...one that was 4 hr. away doesn't seem to exist anymore, and I've better and more to attend to than punching my means through combat traffic to listen to Macs in a for-sh*t space where acoustics was ignored 'cuz the SO wanted the room to feature the furniture v. the audio qualities.... Surprised? Oh, F no... Mahg's thoughts and commentary is muzic to my mind , if not ears.... Yes, one can achieve the 'suburban' levels of Nirvana without Xcess,,,,yep, pun intended, and you should have heard it coming..... My 'pile' of this, that, and th; other would likely not impress. Few have seen it, less heard it, esp. 'philes with zilch interest at darkening my door. They're welcome, wine, brew (AVL has more than you will EVER imbibe without making the local PD happy to DWI you or worse...), or 'other', which You should supply.,,, NC still is in an idiot state.....mho.....longer story than I'll subject y'all to.... ...*sigh* Miserable acoustics....I can cope. DIY Walsh drivers that the few that have heard....prefer... I don't claim perfection. It doesn't exist. Dollars be damned. Make self happy, bottom line. Nothing else matters.
|
I believe far too many people worry about what others think about their equipment. Who cares? Does it sound good to YOU? Do YOU enjoy it? If so, enjoy it then. Goof around with it hear and there looking for improvements if you wish always making sure it's YOU who likes the results. Sure, ask questions and learn but just please yourself and that should suffice. |