Are there other people like me ? Amazed by their low cost system :)
Are there other people so much amazed by a relatively low cost system , they consider that is not a stopgap but instead a minimally satisfying ectasy... Each day i am amazed by my speakers and headphone... Am i deaf? Am i ignorant of high end ? Be assured that i know better system with higher acoustic experience and more refined exist ...
My point is an experienced and felt minimal threshold of acoustic qualities and well done and well realized and well manifested acoustic factors exist for me and are at play, for the price invested; so much so , i consider any upgrade way less tempting and if possible would be more, way more , costlier to appear as a real upgrade in quality... For sure an upgrade of part at low cost unbeknowst to me is possible but i must live with what i have for now but i feel no frustration at all. š
Am i the only one deluded in this way or enlightened in this way ? Pick your choice of word.... š
For sure what my Tannoy dual gold concentric could do , never my small active 4 inches woofer from M-audio even heavily modified as i did, can do it...š
But guess what ! š
Not knowing acoustics and nothing about audio at the times i owned the Tannoy , i enjoy more right now and i had more acoustics balanced factors experience with these very low cost M-Audio speakers compared to the better refined design of the mythical Tannoy which anyway i never learned to use at their optimum ( i was frustrated by the sound changing amp and never thinking about the Tannoy embeddings in the house/room). š
The main point of this thread is this : knowledge most of the time beat price tags and if it is not the case , basic electrical, mechanical and acoustical knowledge can anyway takes any system to his optimum workings and we can bodly go where no one had gone before with the same speakers... š
Thanks a lot for your informative postĀ which will add weight to the idea that money alone dont define audio experience ....
Ā
Op I have 2 main systems where I compare my low cost system, musicality and musical involvement is very close. But liveness and hearing more thatās where my main 2 systems shine. Low cost systems can only do so much not enough to beat my main systems. What the Andra and my KLH does the ELac canāt.
I am not amazed but I can appreciate a low cost system that sounds nice.Ā The decision comes when something really outperforms and then you have to consider spending a little more for that sound.
Usually i dont signal post and even in the past i had not signal the post of someone accusing me of killing people during covid discussion here in Audiogon...
Then i do not ask and never asked the audiogon person assigned to survey all thread to censor a post even one accusing me of murder...Then....
I can defend myself without signalling a post....
is this clear for all ?
Ā
Ā
But this idiot above instead of writing his opinion in one sentence : "The OP wrote too much and had a big ego", which is at least not completely false, š pollute the thread by idiotic repetition...š
I ask this hateful idiot to remove his post... And replace it by a one sentence insult...We can ignore one sentence insult coming from idiot...
If he do not remove his post himself , i signal his post in a public way to the Audiogon responsible person in charge to remove it instead of doing it covertly because this post is not only useless, but polluting the thread...I act here always openly and hate to signal people and never do it covertly ..
Thanks...
Ā
Ā The audiogon person in charge can after erasing the post above erase mine because it will not make any sense... Thanks in advanceĀ to the audiogon service person...
It is also my general attitude and we are not alone it seems...
Except i am amazed as some others people by their low cost system... Probably luck in synergy and better embeddings controls are Key for amazement ...
Thanks for your opinion...
I am not amazed but I can appreciate a low cost system that sounds nice. The decision comes when something really outperforms and then you have to consider spending a little more for that sound.
I have to say, @mahgisterĀ , that at times I wish I could take a puff of whatever it is that youāre smoking, in hopes to be able to 1) go thru your posts and 2) understand what youāre trying to say. But we already had this conversation and I failed miserably. Lol
I don't have a low cost system BUT one of my most outstanding pieces of gear is also my least expensive. After excessive building of high rise's in my neighborhoodĀ made FM reception impossible I stuck my toe in the water and bought an Ocean Digital WR 10 internet 'Tuner'Ā ($179) I bought a good either-net cable, upgraded the power supply to an IFI wall wart ($50) and bought a used Monarchy DIP re-clocker ($199)
Hooked up to my Kora DAC it sounds AMAZING!Ā
Sometimes, with a few low cost upgrades, you can take a humble piece of kit and turn it into a giant killer!Ā Ā Ā
Ā And take a poll, and if most people here dont understand any of my point as you claim you dont, then i amĀ an idiot...
If many people canĀ understand my pointĀ then you are the one...
And why writing here that you understand a dude who spam a thread instead of writing a sentence ?
No need to answer... Your post will be understood as void of meaning... Sorry...
Ā
I have to say, @mahgisterĀ , that at times I wish I could take a puff of whatever it is that youāre smoking, in hopes to be able to 1) go thru your posts and 2) understand what youāre trying to say. But we already had this conversation and I failed miserably. Lol
Interesting point nobody had make in this thread till now...
I also was surprized by a peanuts cost tube preamplifier and an headphone peanuts cost one...
Ā
I really think that we live interesting time for audiophiles...
Thanks for your post ... It can be interesting for people looking for a tuner for sure... I will look at it by curiosity ...
I donāt have a low cost system BUT one of my most outstanding pieces of gear is also my least expensive. After excessive building of high riseās in my neighborhood made FM reception impossible I stuck my toe in the water and bought an Ocean Digital WR 10 internet āTunerā ($179) I bought a good either-net cable, upgraded the power supply to an IFI wall wart ($50) and bought a used Monarchy DIP re-clocker ($199)
Hooked up to my Kora DAC it sounds AMAZING!
Sometimes, with a few low cost upgrades, you can take a humble piece of kit and turn it into a giant killer!
If you understand acoustics and what human hearing is capable of hearing and what it isn't, it's not difficult to set up an exemplary low-cost (sub-$2000) system. Especially if you buy used and/or build your own speakers and acoustic treatments.
I concur with the three posters above ... Thanks...
But it will be interesting to read their more detailed experience with their relatively low cost system versus a more costlier part or more costlier system...
It is sure that acoustics knowledge teach us how to separate straw and grain in audio marketing... No need to many showroom visits if you had learned how to make your system- room better and even magical... Your ears will taught you so...
This thread is one of the rare claiming that less may be more ...If knowledge is acquired and creativity developed a bit ...
The more we learn the less upgrades we may need...
So I am dedicated to buying almost everything second hand - yesterdayās upper end. I donāt mind having to wait to live in luxury. I buy off of Craigslist, from Saturday Audio Exchange (Andy is the best), occasionally Audiogon and Ebay.
So the retail cost equivalent of the system I listen to is about $20K-25K. Paid about $6500. Thatās not to say that is all I spent to get there because it IS a journey and what I like about my approach is auditions are very long term, in my listening room, with my gear. Things I donāt use are traded in, traded, or sold for near or at the price I paid.
[Numbers assume Iām listening to digital front end. I also have an analog setup that would increase the above numbers, but still bought used other than the cartridge, and the boys over at Music Direct did me a huge favor when they got me their demo Avid phono preamp on the extra cheap]
Plus I have a lot of alternative gear of equivalent quality and I shuffle the deck pretty often. Thatās helpful when auditioning a recent acquisition since I can try different combinations to see what sounds best with it.
There is a lot of work in that - I donāt have the space to do all the acoustical stuff that Mahgister has been able to do, but I do have thick carpet and a vaulted ceiling with decent natural acoustics. I do move gear around, swap connections, angle and toe, use a swarm of subs, etc., and that all takes work to configure well and also keep running. Plus you have to be glued to all the used markets and be opportunistic on purchase - buy whatās available rather than some targeted piece.
I enjoy the sound tremendously. It is magic to me. And one of my favorite things to do is test synergy among components by shuffling the deck - I have a NOS DAC and a SABRE-based DAC and they have different qualities. Levinson SS pre sounds different from the BAT tube pre. 5.1 SACD or DVDA adds another dimension (literally!). Sure, I could combine all that value and have components with 2x-3x the retail price but IMHO itās more about synergy and learning and I am happy with what Iāve got (not that I wouldnāt jump at a $10K piece I saw sitting at Goodwill or something).
I almost hesitated to put in numbers because I think itās obnoxious to talk about spend, but did in order to provide some context. Please forgive me if I broke my own rule...at least Iām not talking about my 6 figure system and how it enhances my manhood...
For sure when i spoke about low cost system being acoustically "magical" the exact price scale level had not much importance... We are all different, with different needs, different possibilities(room) and different budget...
my point is about "relatively low cost system".... From 1,000 bucks to 50,000 bucks if Bill Gates discover downsizing and the joy of experimenting with less and more creativity ( he has no time for that i guess š If i was him i will buy the best plug it and call it a day in audio) ...
High end is not synonymus with audiophile experience, knowledge and creativity are... Acoustics beat price tags very often ...Synergy is starting point ...
The goal is listening musicĀ at the minimal acousticalĀ satisfaction threshold with the best S.Q. for the least money invested ...
I think there are different ways to enjoy music. Ā I enjoy listening to my car radio while driving, which certainly isnāt anywhere near āaudiophileā. Ā When Iām out on the deck or patio, I enjoy listening to my inexpensive Bluetooth speakers. Ā I can be in a sports bar and enjoy music played on a jukebox. Ā Itās all pleasant to me ā I donāt always have to, or want to, be attending to every single nuance. Ā And my set-up for āseriousā listening is rather meager but still better than that of anyone I know. Ā I like it ā Iām good. Ā š
Great example of how an honest question becomes a disconnected discussion that would discourage most from wanting to engage the community again.Ā Great job folks.
Your cryptic opinion must be explained in more details...š
I dont understand how people expressing their experience in varied situations with relatively low cost systems in a positive wayĀ will discourage people to engage...
Save for oneĀ childish post, all posts were adding more perspectives to the thread question.
Then your one sentence judgement read like a riddle coming from a sphinx judging from above...š
Explain or stay mute...Thanks in advance ...
Great example of how an honest question becomes a disconnected discussion that would discourage most from wanting to engage the community again. Great job folks.
Ā And i must say that i had not thought about this argument when i spoke and advocate aboutĀ relatively low cost system :
Ā«This $500 audiophile system is important because itĀ opens the door to a young generation of audiophilesĀ who typically have a tough financial road ahead of them Ā»
@mahgisterĀ how do you define a relatively low cost system? I didnāt go thru the entire discussion and possibly missed it but is there a cap on a total to consider a system low cost?Ā
Compared to some other systems Iāve seen, mine is relatively low cost.Ā
With that said, I usually enjoy my main system a lot until I āupgradeā something and disrupt the synergy between components/cables/room/ears in the process. Then it becomes an obsession and a source of frustration until the synergy is restored. Iāve done it too many times too.
But whatās interesting is when I listen to music on my lower cost system we use to watch movies and play background music on, (Marantz AVR, Focal Aria 906, Apple TV streaming Tidal), I can honestly say that I enjoy music just as much as I do when listening to my main rig. I just enjoy the sound of my main rig more. Ā
But Guttenberg as most audiophiles will insist on the gear choice and synergy...
We must start with good synergetical pieces of gear then it is Ok...
But my main argument concerning the reason why a relatively low cost system can gave an audiophile very good if not magical experience is based on the electrical,mechanical and acoustical factors and controls as much as important as synergy and gear choices to reach the potential peak of any system at any price in a room ...
currently running a $62 Fosi integrated, $149 WiiM streamer, pair of Avalon Ascendants - quite surprised at how good it sounds...and no attention given to placement, acoustics etc ...
As i said relatively low cost can vary a lot in function of each one of us different needs and budget limit...
My main point is about the way and the meansĀ to enjoy a "relatively low cost system" not so much about a fixed amount of money...
The back tought behind this question is that mechanical and electrical and acoustical knowlwedge define audiophile experience more than mere price tags...
the other point is then that acoustic satisfaction is possible at relatively low cost...
I dont define a "cost" because when you know what to do to improve an audio system, his cost matter way lessĀ for a musical and sound quality experience...
Even Bill gates then can come and participate and ex-plain to us how he had as much pleasure with his "low cost" system of 80,000 bucks than the other one he own of one millon dolars becauseĀ he learned how to install and embed each pieces in the right electrical, mechanical and acoustical working dimensions...
then here relatively low costĀ is defined by the specfic history os each one and his needs and budget...
My thread and question are not dogmatic opinion about pricing but inviation about thinking how to improve what we have or how to experiment for improvement BEFORE a costlier upgrades which can become useless or less useful when we learn more ...
@mahgisterĀ how do you define a relatively low cost system? I didnāt go thru the entire discussion and possibly missed it but is there a cap on a total to consider a system low cost?Ā
Compared to some other systems Iāve seen, mine is relatively low cost.
And you are right about synergy... It is really the starting point and can become a problem when we buy a new piece as so called upgrade...
It is why i recommend experiments with what we have before upgrading if the synergy is good to begin with for sure...
Ā
Ā Thanks for your interesting observations bro...
With that said, I usually enjoy my main system a lot until I āupgradeā something and disrupt the synergy between components/cables/room/ears in the process. Then it becomes an obsession and a source of frustration until the synergy is restored. Iāve done it too many times too.
But whatās interesting is when I listen to music on my lower cost system we use to watch movies and play background music on, (Marantz AVR, Focal Aria 906, Apple TV streaming Tidal), I can honestly say that I enjoy music just as much as I do when listening to my main rig. I just enjoy the sound of my main rig more.
currently running a $62 Fosi integrated, $149 WiiM streamer, pair of Avalon Ascendants - quite surprised at how good it sounds...and no attention given to placement, acoustics etc ...
Interesting!
I own a Fosi SK01 headphone amplifier with the AKG sextett ...( for my computer use it is not my main headphone amp) I used a Douk P2 tube preamplifierfor the Fosi headphone amp and as pre for my active speakers.. Price 60 bucks too ...
It is so good for peanuts price that i will never upgrade it save with a very high end design headphone amplifier .. Why ?
Because i will be afraid to buy one at 500 bucks compared to this one i paid 60 bucks so good it is...Who want to pay 500 bucks for a marginal upgrade or just changing 4x 25 cents for a dollar...
Here i will upgrade it only with something very high end at more than 1000 bucks..š
And anyway in upgrade process all gear pieces must pertain to the same quality design/price scale generally speaking... No one use generally a 200 bucks tube in a 25 dollars tube amp...
But there is exception to this rule as your short interesting post reveal : the Avalon ascendant driven by a 62 bucks amp with success it seems ... š
Arenāt you from a rich country called Canada man? You should be able to afford 3k or 4k every few years, at the least? If you are from Sudan or Guatemala and said you canāt afford much, Iād believe you.
Are you from an arrogant country where you take the right to lecture people about their goal, needs and budget and about what they like to do in life?š
Have you read my question ?
Or your pleasure instead of answering it clearly is just to throw a veiled insult to all people happy with a relatively low cost system ?
My basic system is a TOP amplifier from Sansui one of their best model and the best headphone ever designed by AKG ...
Perhaps price tag can give you an audiophile erection but not me, i prefer my own way...
And you came and think that you can patronize me about my room acoustics, my modified speakers and my system because it is homemade at peanuts cost ?
Ā I am not alone here happy for such or such reasons, guess what type of people will patronize them speaking as you just did ?
š Yes you make me smile ....
I wish you pleasure ...
Ā
Arenāt you from a rich country called Canada man? You should be able to afford 3k or 4k every few years, at the least? If you are from Sudan or Guatemala and said you canāt afford much, Iād believe you.
Great music does not have to be expensive. Price to me, is a silly metric to use for reference. Heart & ears does a much better job :-) Here is a video made to inspire:
Are you from an arrogant country where you take the right to lecture people about their goal, needs and budget and about what they like to do in life?š
We aināt arrogant, we just have some scary thugs like the CIA who operate beyond our democratic reach and can target the immense riches of stingy rich countries. š
On a different note, youāve been at this forever... long before this thread started. Itās OK to enjoy barrel bottom speakers and convince yourself psychologically that nothing else is better, but, cmon man, atleast get a subwoofer...Next thing iāll hear is that itās somehow more nirvana without it. ...But, on that same note, youāve been praising BACCH for ages now on all kinds of threads. Did you buy it eventually? Or still theorycrafting? Is Trudeau asking the Canadians to claim theyāre poor again, as they stash away their immense riches whilst living in fear of big daddy by the border? Bwaaaahahaha
You know that i disliked headphones but i MODIFIED my AKG K340 , which is even if you dont know it one of the most interesting design and the only one hybrid with an internal acoustic grid of tuned resonators .. With it i enjoy an "out of the head" speakers like effect already and i experience all spatial qualities which will be enhanced by the BACCH system in his relative way for reasons i will not explained here ...
I am not poor having no debts by the way... I am not rich either ...
But my goal in life dont concern you...
I prefer listening music since i was creative enough to reach this minimal acoustic satisfaction threshold and i am no more frustrated by sound factors lacking or unbalanced...
I cannot afford 10,000 albums of music and many thousand of books as i did and bought your so called plug and play high end system ...šBwaaaahahaha...
Acoustics knowledge is the key.... Go on buying gear ....my creativity is enough for me and for others...
As you wisely said :
Bwaaaahahaha
š
it is previsible that owners of high end will attack someone who can be too much satisfied and express it especially if many others do it here , with relatively low cost system without too much loss in the acoustic factors balance and knowing why and how to do it at minimal cost...
I am not alone it seems reading my thread , some others enjoy relatively low cost system with their own room and synergy ...
š
Now as you articulate it well , Bwaaaahahaha...
Ā
By the way the BACCH filters i recommended it to inform ourselves as audiophiles is not a costly "tweaks" or a new high end piece of gear, a fad, it is an acoustic revolution in understanding not a toy... Then i encouraged not so much people to buy these filters as to read Choueiri articles and inform themselves BEFORE about crosstalk destructive effect on any stereo system.
Why did i do that ?
It is because i devised my own mechanical ways and experiments to decrease crosstalk and verify acoustic principle at play...š Bwaaaahahaha...
Ā
Perhaps you walked in life buying...I prefer understanding... And my creativity ... my fun was learning some acoustics not buying ... I modified my speakers porthole and waveguide now they are audiophile stuff with many others tweaks of my own ...Bwaaaahahaha
Ā
And last but not least i listen music now, not the sound of my gear frustrated, i listenedĀ the sound of my system/room in the years i devised my acoustics experiments... I listen music few hours each day now happy ... it is behind me because i learned how to do it...Music is enough for me now... Read my commentaries in the classical threads and in the jazz thread or read the one about chinese and japan music... You will see that music was and is my hobby... Acoustics interest meĀ again and again till nowĀ for philosophical reason related to the relation between qualities perception and consciousness ...
You know that i disliked headphones but i MODIFIED my AKG K340 , which is even if you dont know it one of the most interesting design and the only one hybrid with an internal acoustic grid of tuned resonators .. With it i enjoy an "out of the head" speakers like effect already and i experience all spatial qualities which will be enhanced by the BACCH system in his relative way for reasons i will not explained here ...
I am not poor having no debts by the way... I am not rich either ...
But my goal in life dont concern you...
I prefer listening music since i was creative enough to reach this minimal acoustic satisfaction and i am no more frustrated by sound factors lacking or unbalanced...
I cannot afford 10,000 albums of music and many thousand of books and bought so your called high end system ...š
Acoustics knowledge is the key.... Go on buying gear ....my creativity is enough for me and for others...
Headphones can sound good because they can cut the roomās confoundance out. But, they are very restricted. You canāt feel the music in the entirety of your physicality with headphones (ear huggers), like you can with a hifi system.
If youāre running a pair of speakers without a sub, you are missing entire lower octaves of music contained in some of your recordings. No matter what acoustical interventions and positional eqāing you may have done, it is highly unlikely that youāre fully addressing room modes and so on without deploying subs. The acoustical satisfaction is sliding down a bit there, in light of all the above mentioned. š
On the same note, I am not a high end snob. I have gear at different price brackets including high end gear. But, i usually donāt buy high end gear at full price and take the big L on resale. I buy it used or at killer deals so i can cut even when i sell it. When i do find something at a lower price bracket that can keep up or beat it (due to trickle down, technological advancements, etc), i sell the newly sonically obsoleted high end gear and get my money back. Later on, if i find some high end again thatās mind blowing, iāll buy it and then iāll beat it over time with the lower priced gear (as things improve), get my money back, etc. Thatās the cycle i operate on.
There is rarely a thing called a poor product these days among competent gear. There is only a thing called the poor value for price product.
People making generalization miss always the point...
You cannot know what my modified K340 can do...
When i listened them with organ music from Bach by Marie Claire alain for example, i hear the church acoustic OUT OF MY HEAD, as if i was there... i felt the higher bass in my chest not in my ears... And i felt the bass notes till 20 hertz in my feet by bones resonance... The first time i even was so surprized i jump on my chair ...Bwaaaahahaha...
Ā
As usual with many audiophiles they bash others experience to promote their favorite fad fetish gear pieces as the ONLY solution... In your case subs grid...
You dont seems to be an exception to this rule...
And you are so oblivious of others needs that you cannot imagine that some own now a small acoustic room with no real need for many subs or even one for many other reasons too ....
Then in your ignorance you decreed that with no subs no system could be audiophile perceived experience...
Pathetically childish ...
Bwaaaahahaha...
Ā
Ā
Ā
Headphones can sound good because they can cut the roomās confoundance out. But, they are very restricted. You canāt feel the music in the entirety of your physicality with headphones (ear huggers), like you can with a hifi system.
If youāre running a pair of speakers without a sub, you are missing entire lower octaves of music contained in some of your recordings. No matter what acoustical interventions and positional eqāing you may have done, it is highly unlikely that youāre fully addressing room modes and so on without deploying subs. The acoustical satisfaction is sliding down a bit there, in light of all the above mentioned. š
What you just described is consumerism in audiophile products...
I had nothing against that.,..
But use your brain and think about others people looking for their own solution without this cycle of upgrades...
My cycle is learning how to install acoustically optimally and mechanically optimally and electrically optimally with my own devices what i already have if synergy was reach...
Bwaaaahahaha...
Later on, if i find some high end again thatās mind blowing, iāll buy it and then iāll beat it over time with the lower priced gear (as things improve), get my money back, etc. Thatās the cycle i operate on.
There is a price to pay if we neglect to study and experiment with acoustics... ( not to mention mechanical and electrical embeddings controls)
We will then focus only on gear upgrades instead of embedding rightfully in our room what we already have ( if the system synergy is there to start with for sure ) ...
it is a joke but it say something ... š
Ā
By the way i can very well hear any gear change impact in my systems, even cables...Then get my point right ...ššš
I am not a narrow objectivist ideologue enebriated with few measuring tools... š
But i am not a subjectivist tasting gear as he taste wine and changing them each month because he is bored and need a new flavor...
One factor that audiophile high end fanatic " the costlier the better", in their blind race to upgrades, forgot is that we are all of us someday because of retirement or age or simply as myself going in a smaller house, we then are all in the obligation to downsize our system and we want doing so with no downgrade in the S.Q.
The bad news is downsizing is inevitable for most of us...
The good news as i experienced it , it is possible without downgrading the sound quality...
Ā
Here some food for thought for those who think buying high end gear, instead of studying acoustics is the gist and the essence of audio experience :
It is a bit provocative but there is no thinking without disturbance in our mind set ...š
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