Anybody having trouble getting near-your-asking-price for used gear ? (Plz. no hype)
I buy and sell gear "on a whim" and have done so for 40 years. Mostly high-end tube stuff that I get an itch to move from my rig to make room for other high-end stuff that I have been dreaming of. It's fun and gives me a fresh faces to fall in and out of love with.
Lately I am having a really hard time getting any serious offers above 1/4 to 1/3 of retail- actually zero offers over that. And winter is the time of year gear sells. Once the sun comes out things get really quiet. Not terribly long ago I could ask 50% of retail and get serious offers pretty close to the ask.
I am especially having trouble selling ARC gear. It's prices are steadily collapsing. On HiFi Shark that stuff sits for close to a year (or more) before it moves. For example SP 15s are under 2K now. They were selling (not asking) at 3K a year ago. It took me almost a year to sell a new-in--box I/50 for $3000 (!) Ref 75s are moving under $3000 and TMR will only offer 2K for one of them. The older stuff is selling in the hundreds not the thousands. Top-Of the-line stuff like Reference 10 preamps are moving under 12K (asking is around 17K)
I recently sold a Bryston BR-20 brand new in the box and it took me 7 months to get 48% of MSRP. This is NEW stuff- not somebody's junk.
My guy at Magnepan told me their stuff is really moving slowly as well. He blamed it on the political environment. ARC is pretending all is well but I have a little birdie inside there that tells me their stuff is stagnant as and dealers are actually cancelling orders.
Now, assuming you are being honest and not "fluffing the market" with bullbleep because you have something for sale and hoping for the greater fool, are you seeing/experiencing the same thing I am experiencing?
NO RETAILERS PLESASE- you guys tend to "exaggerate" to put it kindly- plus most of us here at AG know who you are and your 1000s of posts are a big clue.
OCD Mike is selling good gear so the market is still there. A sample of one only.
I have lots of gear I want to sell. Cables, for example. I’ll be lucky to get 10-20% of the purchase price.
Selling to the USA - the largest market - from Australia is a genuine challenge. My USA gear is 120V but it’s the best gear I’ve got. For example, I have two Marantz MM8077 upgraded (EMI RFI shield), to sell in Australia I need to supply the works, power cables, adapter plugs, transformer and the amps. Price is less than half, 30% of them retail and the other kit is included. It’s a blood bath. But it’s what it takes to sell this gear into this market. Too bad. I’ll be glad to see someone using the gear.
Since retirement, and even prior to retirement, I have been buying and selling my way to audio heaven. The fact that I am talking to you now, is proof that I haven't made it there yet.
That being said, there are a few things I keep in mind when buying and selling gear.
Given a choice, always buy gear that is desirable to others and has a proven performance history.
Know the value of what you have and price it accordingly. I try to be around the medium price because getting even moderately greedy only means it won't sell quickly, or at all.
Clean the gear meticulously, take good pictures from every angle and call attention to any imperfections.
Don't modify gear that you don't plan to keep forever. I think modifications of any kind scare people enough to look elsewhere. Point in case. I was looking for an Aurender N100 streamer and it took quite awhile to find one. Despite their scarcity at the time, there was one unit that remained available for months. I can only assume that this was due to the owner putting in aftermarket fuses.
I always sell locally. I don't like paying fees for ads & selling on sites that want a piece of my money. Recently I've had two ads up for nice speakers for a fair price, and no bites - save for the #@!&% that generously offered to pick them up & take them off my hands, for free.
I enjoy conversations like this because they're real and raw. I work in the industry marketing/PR and also buy, sell, collect and flip gear.
The Manufacturers
These guys keep raising prices beyond what's reasonable. There's quality gear from China at a fraction of the cost. I have been given discount from manufacturers I work with up to 60% discount off MSRP That is not all the time but I know they can give out 40% discounts like candy. They still make money. The markup is huge.
The Dealers
Dealers are in weird situation. Some of them are really greedy and can't be trusted. And on the other hand some of them are just fighting to make money and that little bit of profit they make has to go to paying their entire operation and their employees and business costs. And they're probably not selling as much as you and I would like to believe. They also get squeezed between internet competition and manufacturer price controls. Many manufacturers strictly enforce minimum pricing, even in the secondary market. It's a rough business for these guys but they don't get a lot of sympathy because there are guys who are just greedy in the industry.
The Market Reality
If you can get 50-60% of MSRP, consider yourself lucky and take the money. Equipment is only worth what someone will pay, not what you paid. High-end stuff sits because sellers want 50%+ but there aren't enough buyers willing to pay that for very expensive gear.
Some equipment I've had priced at 40% of MSRP sits for a year with no bites. Sometimes you need to cut losses and move on, or drop your price just enough to close a sale. Waiting for "the perfect buyer" creates a stagnant market.
Research Your Pricing
Check Hifishark or eBay for actual selling prices over the last couple years. The lowest recent sale is probably your new comparison point. With certain equipment (like Bryston), some brands just aren't as popular and will be harder to move regardless of price.
Economic Reality
This hobby's high-end is for the one percenters. Who can justify amplifiers costing as much as cars or cables as much as vacations? With today's cost of living, discretionary income is rare. The political climate makes people nervous and tightening their wallets.
I'm planning my own purchases carefully, looking for 40-50% or.more. We need to be flexible and realize this isn't an investment - like cars, you rarely get your money back.
Audio equipment is overpriced relative to manufacturing costs. The market is correcting itself. Seasonal factors and economic conditions always affect sales. If you want top dollar, be prepared to wait. If you want to sell, be realistic with pricing.
At the end of the day, this hobby is about enjoyment, not making money Or recouping your investment. It's the price of admission to play with the best equipment made and is not for people who are looking for returns on the price to play. Manufacturers and some dealers are greedy. The secondary market isn't - your wallet tells us when prices are too high.
OP...Maybe you have noticed or maybe you are just isolated...Many people, even hifi people are hurting for money and the current world situation makes many folks weary of taking financial chances.
I lost my grant from usaid because my krell evolution used less energy than my fpb 700. I'll have to come back to reality enjoy the music.this should get the party going.
I always research present market values and price accordingly, I also have pretty extensive 100% positive feedback. Can't recall a single time when I've not sold at asking price or near within a week or two.
I would say that the market was NOT slow from October through January. It was really quite strong.
I personally noticed some impact immediately after the election, but it was short lived, and late November through January was stellar.
Starting February, I started seeing a purchasing slowdown in my largest customer base, who I would classify as fairly affluent (but not in the top 1% per capita), while anyone I would consider a luxury / top 1% client is buying more than ever.
Part of this slowdown this month is normal. January through March tend to be a little slower in general due to recouping from the holidays and heading into tax season. But economic and political volatility is impacting purchase consideration as well, and I’ve heard concerns from a few of my clients.
Reale prices on the market, while relevant to all of the above, have also been affected by what others say based on how individual brands are doing in market, scarcity, and demand.
The market and supply / availability / saturation of products have also evolved. There are more brands/products now than ever before, especially in the digital domain, and vast improvement in products especially since 2020, which result in a slower rate of turnover of gear (e.g. DAC searches/cycles were likely more frequent than they are today because the baseline has improved significantly).
And yes, I believe too many people are asking too much for some of their used gear. So it’s very multidimensional.
FWIW, given the chatter on Audio Research, I just sold an ARC REF 75 SE at full asking price within days of it being listed. And I’ve seen it listed for lower in the market in the past. I think there is still value in many of their products, but people are thinking twice about which products from respective brands deliver the value they seek. I can imaging a newer set of REF 160 monos may move slower due to escalating tube prices, and many other ARC components, especially vintage, are not moving like they used to simply because they can’t compete from a performance perspective to more modern products at lower price points on the market.
Recently sold tube monoblocks for asking price. Recently sold tube preamplifier for asking price. So no problem with selling used gear. Where are you advertising? I use USAudioMart.
About a year and a half ago had a friend with a lot of high end equipment pass away. His widow asked if I would help her try to sell it all off. I collected all the equipment, did research on it, and then proceeded to start to list it here and on other sights.
I guess I was realistic about pricing because most everything sold very close to the asking price. There were a few itrems that went for more, and a few that went for less (10-20% either way.
Some items sold as soon as they were listed, others took 4-6 weeks before they sold. I’m not sure if this is a normal time frame for those that frequent this site and buy and sell equipment, but I didn’t find it to be too bad. I personally have sold a bunch of “pro-sound” equipment, and that equipment takes a huge hit $$$ wise. Example would be a 4 year $10k mixer in pristine shape, high offer $1,400.00. I guess it just depends on your perspective.
One other quick story, and it is in reference to the response about different peoples budgets. A friend who use to work at one of the premier high end audio stores in the Chicagoland area back in the late 70’s/early 80’s told me that a guy came in the store, layed a invoice on the counter and said, I need to replace this equipment. The guy responded, did you get ripped off. The customer replied, “no, I lost it in a poker game last night”. The invoice totaled $48,000.
From my vantage point, if you are financially sound enough to be able to replace a system of that value (70’s/80’s dollars), you are probably not going to be purchasing used equipment.
Wonder if butter dude lied on his asylum/refugee application or somethin..One has to wonder otherwise why there is such constant buttery incessant paranoia on every thread that Donnie might deport his hiny back to wonderland....bwahahahaha
(Political paranoia on every thread..fear of losing his buttery fluffy couch....tis the way of the thread killing butter/ ’self proclaimed’ saint.)
It’s ok butter, if you want, i’ll pay an attorney for free to keep your hiny here, paranoia free.
Honestly I am equally sick of right wing and left wing posts. Believe me I am not one to shy away from discussing politics, but this is not the appropriate forum
All it does is get otherwise good informative threads deleted by moderators, and honestly I can’t blame them.
it's funny how sensitive some of you are now, but when it was constant "cables cause a fortune due to Bidenomics" it didn't bother anyone. And to answer the question, 9 out of 10 threads here have zero politics. Done, you won't hear a word from me :)
Honestly I am equally sick of right wing and left wing posts. Believe me I am not one to shy away from discussing politics, but this is not the appropriate forum
All it does is get otherwise good informative threads deleted by moderators, and honestly I can't blame them.
For what it's worth @grislybutterI always appreciate your non-political posts :)
I'd love to sell my Stingray and get mono Snappers or older Manley gear. I think $1,800 is a reasonable ask for my Stingray (it was sent into Manley and has new caps and new tubes) but I see other sellers asking up to $3,900. And on the other end, I would pay $2,600 for an old pair of 175's or $3,000 for Snappers, but the asking price is $6,000 to $7,500.
I think lots of sellers are trying to make money.
I, on the other hand, am looking for good deals, and am willing to give a good deal when I want a change.
it's funny how sensitive some of you are now, but when it was constant "cables cause a fortune due to Bidenomics" it didn't bother anyone. And to answer the question, 9 out of 10 threads here have zero politics. Done, you won't hear a word from me :)
Can there be a single thread on this audio-enthusiast site that does not get systematically dragged into politics? No one gives a sh t about your opinions (or mine, but I choose to keep mine to myself)
With used gear in an environment where new gear are having to have substantial markdowns for sales people notice. If velocity of used sales and prices have a downward trend, unless someone finds their dream piece and jumps on it, time will go by with perhaps other like equipment listed competing with your ad. People will notice that too.
So, if I see something that intrigues me enough to make an offer, I may offer a lower price, one which I feel is lower than what I would pay but I want to feel out the seller to see how much wiggle room they have. This way, If I really want the item I can at least get it at a lower price after some haggling.
If I place the ball in the seller's court and ask if they could do better, I might get a little discount but they will then know I am interested and the momentum may not be on my side.
If I see a seller is a bit more determined towards a sale, I will try to get them to move a little lower.
In my experience in buying, I usually only go after something I really want. So, if I can get it for a bit less, great. If they don;t move on price and its for me fair, I will still buy it. If as seller just flat out offers something at a lower than expected level I won't even ask if they could do a bit better, I will just buy it.
As a seller, I have sold speakers I had to come down on and still wait patiently for a sale. I believe I got the lower side of my expectations but all parties happy.
Now have listed some gear, nothing rare but good for their price points and figure I will have to wait it out and perhaps haggle a bit for a sale.
Your stuff is much more specialized. I would do the research on pricing and ease of moving a particular piece of gear, shipping. etc., to determine a reasonable expectation on both sides. Expecting nearly half of retail doesn't mean anything to me. It's what it's worth at the moment. If my expectation is too low for whatever reason, I don't list. If there's too much of a certain gear for sale, I will watch what happens first.
Then there's the economy to consider. I feel that alot of people have their attention on other matters at the moment and that can detract from one's sale. I need food before I need gear. It's Spring and people focus on moving. Perhaps looking for a higher paying job is someone's focus. Then there's relationships, marriage, life changes often occur in the Spring, so there's that to detract attention away form used gear.
And there's the fact I already have all the gear I feel I need for this hobby, why buy more?
I find there are always low ballers who just dwell in the 'how low can I get something' world. Even with fair counter offers they seldom agree. But with patience and fair pricing things eventually sell. I find it best to just not respond to the low ballers.
Brand name cabling is still a pretty easy sell at 50% of new. I sold a bunch of tweaks …footers and vibration stuff at 50% in a few days. Loudspeakers seem to be the toughest. Couldnt get 40% for mint condition still current model Personas. Ended up trading them in at Next Level Hi Fi and the sold them for 2500 more that I was asking for 5 mos on the other selling site. They offer financing which a private seller cannot. Big difference with high ticket items.
@charlieetotally. I understand that's how you feel. Under today's rules you can't make someone go away (free speech and stuff) so you need to change the rules.
Pretty sure when people talk about making America great again its the 1950’s they are referring to except maybe reverse the rhetoric when it comes to Russia and any old USSR aspirations to be great again there.
AH the good old days of ducking under desks for air raid drills, measles, etc.....
Hey I was a naive kid then which (in hindsight) was pretty great and guess what: here I still am except a crankier old guy still yapping about hifis.....whoda thunk it?
Hey Ohm Walsh prices are highest ever and in scarce supply. So it’s not the end of the world. At least not yet. Pays to have a truly unique and somewhat affordable product that people value, I would assert. Not as affordable as used to be the case by a long shot though.
We are in a truly dark age similar to what my parents grew up in during the 50s in the darkest phase of Communism when you had to call a monster a beauty pageant.
The horse s**t you and others continue to post on this audio forum stinks up thread after thread. It would be great if you would just go away.
We are in a truly dark age similar to what my parents grew up in during the 50s in the darkest phase of Communism when you had to call a monster a beauty pageant.
Of course, it's big floorstanders. What else can realistically reproduce what was recorded? They are not dinosaurs, dinosaurs are those people who don't understand it.
btw it's incredible that we no longer can state facts even on this forum because it will be labeled political and will hurt people's feelings. Even if we say "price of x audio gear will increase due to tariffs." - the thread will be deleted.
We are in a truly dark age similar to what my parents grew up in during the 50s in the darkest phase of Communism when you had to call a monster a beauty pageant.
People are missing the obvious cause (besides unrealistic seller expectations). Young people aren't interested in HiFi. They listen on headphones. And you can get a decent experience listening experience with your iPhone/Android and a nice set of Bose wireless earphones. They already have the phone, so they spend $300 for a nice set of earbuds and they're done. They have spotify and they're set.
The community of people willing to spend thousands for really good sound is diminishing every day.
the silver lining I see, being a "data guy" is the market is telling us what make and models are really holding up and worth their price in every aspect.
For me, audio is a hobby, a means to escape the day's stress, As so, I know that when I make a purchase for this hobby that it is not an investment. An investment is something you do with expectations of making a positive return on. At least for me, audio is not that. Now, in today's geopolitical/economic environment, we are in a buyers market. Cash is king. This bodes well for me as in the next week or so I will be upgrading the digital side of my system. It will most likely be second hand gear and the sites are flush with great offerings. I learned a long time ago, there are times to buy and times to sell. You need to surf the right wave.
That's such a vague statement. It seems much more likely that prices are simply too high.
I assume any sort of consumer goods lose at least 50% of their assumed value once you take it home and use it. No doubt there are minor exceptions to this rule, but used stereo gear isn't an investment and it will drop significantly in price the instant you put it in you listening room.
You can watch eBay auctions to get a true idea of value. High end equipment (over £10k items new) tend to sell for 20%-40% of retail in Europe, depending on age. But over here cars depreciate by 60%+ over three years and the luxury cars depreciate higher still. It does not seem to be any worse than it ever was though. It had always been a thing to expect 50% depreciation as soon as you buy a high-end piece of kit in all spheres of electronics.
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