'Hot tweeter'?? Sounds like a really good looking sparrow.
Actually I've heard the term a few times. I believe it can refer to a tweeter that is brash and sibilant or prone to fricative consonant sounds.
Would I be wasting my money to get a turntable?
I am thinking about getting a turntable but I have a Class D amplifier (Nad M33) which digitizes all the analog inputs. If the amplifier is just digitizing the source is there going to be any difference between the vinyl and just listening to lossless digital streaming sources? Is there any benefit to me, given my current amplifier with has no analog pass through capability, to adding a turntable to my system?
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Mixed signals, @grislybutter . . . are you saying that you are there?
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I am not there yet @thecarpathian but I am evolving :) |
thanks @thecarpathian - I will add "unmolestedly analog" to my audiophile dictionary |
Yes, in another thread I asked why it is that an LP made from a digital source often sounds good. Frequently better than what might have started out years ago as an analog master tape. The answer is all in how the mastering engineer works his or her magic. I have many examples of digital master tapes as the source used to make Redbook CDs, LPs, high res files and DSD. The end result can be satisfactory in any format. |
@grislybutter , et al.- Here is the lowdown on how this thing works. It only digitizes an analog input signal if you’re running something like BluOS and want to send it to another system that can receive it which obviously requires a digital signal. If you’re not doing that and just using it for straight up 2 channel by itself, analog inputs are not digitized and they stay unmolestedly analog. Can't speak for any other amp, but that's the scuttlebutt around the barbershop on this one. So, with that knowledgeable information in hand (if it is indeed accurate), we can safely conclude that yes, you can enjoy that sweet analog turntable sound through it. Now, someone riddle me this; if the album you just bought was pressed from a digital source, is there even a point in playing it? |
Some of the responses on this thread are wild. $50-100K to build a good vinyl collection?! That's 1000 albums at $50 each! That certainly could be an enviable collection (depending on the music) but is not required to enjoy having a turntable. I just got back into analog and am greatly enjoying myself. I certainly have not spent anywhere near $100K on my vinyl collection. Even though, IMO, I think a turntable analog system almost universally sounds better than digital, that's only half of the joy for me. Collecting the vinyl, enjoying the album art, the tactility of playing the album, all add to the experience for me in a positive way. I stopped listening to music often in my system and was basically just using it for videogames or movies for a long time when streaming was my only source. Analog has me excited again to listen and enjoy. I would say, with your amplifier, while you may or may not experience a jump in SQ, the connection to the physical media and music might be worth the money. There's something special for me when removing a favorite album off the shelf for a listen. YMMV. |
garbage in = garbage out no matter the source. Just like there are garbage LP's, there are garbage streams as well. Sometimes they are the same thing. So your m33 converts everything to digital, so what? Vinyl will sound like vinyl, just with a digital edge? Don't know until you try it. Might be awesome. Vinyl is what got me back into audio a couple years ago. Have always had a stereo, but it turned into HT a couple decades ago, was always ok with music. My girl is into records, we decided to get a dedicated 2ch setup. Got the standard $500 TT, upgraded that all the way, including a $400 cartridge. Then splurged on a $2000 TT with a $700 cartridge. It's been blissful. Except for when I destroyed the new cartridge needle after getting it caught on a towel after cleaning the TT, that was a $500 ouch. My point is, TT is all analog, it requires a lot of maintenance, attention and setup. Now we move on to records, yes, they are expensive and going up! 2 years ago, new records were $20-25, used would be $10-30 (on average) Now all new records are $30-35, used start over $20. They take up a LOT of space. Now you got all these records, you got to keep them clean (lots of time and money) get a ultrasonic cleaner $1000, then get new sleeves for the outer and inner record, you are not going to put clean records in dirty selves. expect to spend about $2 per record for that. Records are a labor of love, they take a lot of time, effort, and dedication. They change how you listen to music. As you tend to spin a record, and listen to the entire album. Oh, you get up every 20min to change it. We haven't even touched on sound quality, on my system vinyl sounds better over streaming, but I have a vintage setup, with a lower end streamer. Feel you got to spend at least the same or a little more on the TT setup to get the same level as your digital.
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Whathifi rates the internal phono section highly, though it's not clear as to what deck and cartridge (MM/MC?) they used. They mention "Thorens" but when I clicked on their various test rooms/systems I could not find a Thorens listed. https://www.whathifi.com/reviews/nad-masters-m33
DeKay
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@thecarpathian Good point, if he had an external phono stage, would it be analog signal or the M33 would still convert it to digital? |
If you have a lot of vinyl or want to get into spinning records it’s worth it. IMO. I moved on from vinyl in the late 80s when CDs hit and now I’m streaming more than playing CDs. There’s something special to some about owning physical media especially albums besides cleaning out seeds and stems. It’s your hobby and musical journey. Go where your muse takes you. |
Adding on to what @thecarpathian stated, many of the comments also seem to revolve around the convenience factor of digital, which it certainly is, but that’s not the underlying reason not to get into vinyl. I mean it can be and is a valid reason for sure, but would think anyone considering vinyl is already aware, vinyl is not convenient and not the point |
This spanned the widths and depths of logic and reasoning ranging from the metaphysical to the ultra-technical. He he...I'd say it's really just a matter of two things: Do you want to? Can you afford it? Do it. Even small budgets can get into a system that will reveal whether or not you'd be into it going forward. And we love to upgrade so if it sticks you can do that later. If it doesn't work out, sell it. The net would be worth it, I think, to have tried it. |
@OP If you don't already have a large record collection the answer is absolutely not. It's not just a question of whether the TT will be as good as your existing streaming system but also the opportunity coast. For what you will spend on the analogue playback you can make a substantial upgrade to your existing system. |
That is a pretty accurate diagram!! It’s not a shot at the analog group nor digital. It’s been said a million times, to get really good analog to match a well sorted dig rig, it costs $$. It’s about goals I think, do you want a top shelf analog rig that sounds really good, or something good that one can still enjoy (not shooting for best SQ) > because it WILL cost you. Being I’m in a similar situation deciding whether to pursue this, in my limited time and experience (TT) thus far building an analog rig, it takes a lot of work and setup to even come close to dig and can see how accurate the statement regarding analog cost is 100% true. i have hardly any vinyl, starting from basically scratch, and have a learned a ton thus far. Purchased a RCM, new albums, learning about pressings etc…I’m still in early stages of trying diff components out and am still kinda on the fence whether or not to do this as I can see first hand what it takes => $$ However it’s really more about the physical aspect, the interaction and ownership of music. SQ alone will cost a lot, so it’s a balance of getting good sound that’s enjoyable (good enough without an insane outlay). At least I think that’s a fairly accurate perspective. SQ, cost, goals etc…are all very subjective so one has to find their own “balance” and perspective. |
Vinyl isn't the money pit that many would have you believe, depending on your wants/needs. For many people, myself included, the fact that a rock being dragged through a piece of plastic can sound so amazing is kind of magical. There is a ritual to playing a record that appeals to me (and again, many others) that cannot be replicated by pushing a play button or tapping an ipad. Of course, I love the range of options and choices I have with streaming but it doesn't connect with me in the same way as my records do. Awesome for music in my car, at my desk at work, turned up so I can hear it while I bop around the house, etc, but when I sit down in the old sweet spot I don't even consider putting on a streaming source. I've said it before, black licorice is the best candy. Don't agree? No problem! It doesn't affect my enjoyment one whit. When I started down this road I hadn't heard the term "audiophile" and wouldn't hear it for years (decades?). All I knew was that I spent many pleasurable hours lying on the floor in front of a pair of my parents' Thorens turntable connected to a Marantz integrated amp driving a pair of Sansui speakers (you know, the ones with the grills that looked like carved wood). Of course, back then I had no clue whatsoever that these were "high quality" audio brands, but I believe I would have still caught the bug if it was a Realistic rack system. Long story short - get a turntable. Get a few of your favorite records. If you don't feel like you made the right decision, you can sell the lot for a little less than you paid and call it a day. The rabbit hole is only as big as we indivually make it. |
Yes, back to the original question - "is vinyl worth it"? I listen to a lot of rock / metal / pop / new wave from 1970s through 1980s, and for this material the sound quality on vintage vinyl is often far more enjoyable compared to what’s available on digital formats - at least, that’s how I hear it. The overall mastering quality is what’s at play here; it’s not JUST the "loudness wars" thing, and usually the difference is large enough that it overrides other concerns like: extra ADC / DAC conversion, DAC quality, tubes vs SS, $400 vs $4000 cartridge, or Class D versus class A / AB. If I were focused mostly on music produced since the 1990s, new music, and reissues of older albums, then I’d honestly be hard pressed (haha) to recommend vinyl at all - some of the new music releases are superb on vinyl, but so is the digital side. And frankly, used vinyl prices have gone up so much in the last 10-15 years, that if I were starting out fresh today it would be a real bummer. The only silver lining is there’s a LOT of cool older analog gear available on the used markets - so if you like to experiment (like I do), the world is your analog sandbox. Like all things in this hobby, we can (and do) discuss the pros vs. cons all day long, but the only way to figure out which side you fall on is to dip your toe in. Sometimes I find the pundits right, sometimes wrong - and I’ve surely doled out plenty of advice that has fallen both ways too :-/ |
A good vinyl collection would take years to assemble and cost somewhere between $50,000 and $100,000. However, one definition of an audiophile is a person with $50,000 to $100,000 of audio equipment and a dozen LPs which he uses to listen to his equipment (not to the music). That definition comes from a man who owned a store for 40 years serving audiophiles. He was in the business because he loved, and was very knowledgeable about, music. He had a collection of many thousand LPs. We bonded over our mutual admiration of the transcendent voice of Elly Ameling. A music lover could be transported by her voice with one of her LPs played on a $2,000 system. |
This can be fun technics has reasonable turntables at great prices.best buy has some inexpensive you may be able to try it take it back by 15 days.you may have a pre amp with a moving magnet or moving coil stage.then you could go to yard sales ,good will salv army and hunt for vinyl.not the fence type but think of the fun you can have doing this on a budget.then when you think vinyl is art of your streaming,cd system cuz it's fun to change it up.my first turntable was best buy 150 with stylus plug and play now I have 6 all bought used.they hook up to pre amp with phono stage then out of preamp into splitters that take them into class a krell,class a/b michi class h, and multiple class d amps.they all sound great.enjoy the hunt. |
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This frequency, likely >0.5MHz limits amp's bandwidth. My older Icepower was limited to 60kHz, resulting in 20deg phase delay at 20kHz. It can affect summing of the highest harmonics (that I cannot hear anyway). Zobel network on the output leaves about 1% of the ripple, but the membranes at this frequency don't move. This 0.5MHz frequency is about 100 times higher than highest root frequency in music resulting in practically unlimited resolution. I agree, there are limitations of class D, like of any other class - I was just stressing, that the fact of switching output between two voltage values doesn't make it digital since these constant voltages are not the quantity of interest at this point (duty cycle is). |
@bigtwin much more concise :) |
@tomic601 😍 sent |
you are welcome @thecarpathian
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@fritzenheimer “Would I be wasting my money to get a turntable?" being audiophile IS about wasting money! :-) Sure! nice DD/heavy-BD TT with good cartridge is $$$$! I see you are looking to replace M33 with.. I would recommend to look class A amp if you don’t need more than 40W output power, AB class SS amps with high bias are cool when you need to shake the3 walls! Tube amps, sound extremely “analog” and are more “analog” than SS brothers, but pl be prepared for high maintenance cost, tube replacement etc. |
