@fritzenheimer
There is conversion of the analogue signal to digital in my system. I don’t find that to be a problem. In fact, it can be a big advantage due to a reduction in noise, distortion and interference.
Only you can tell if vinyl is for you. Some of us think it is glorious. I tried to live without it for a few years, but found streaming and CD rips just didn’t give me the same pleasure. As you have seen, others have quite jaundiced views of vinyl. In reality, there are both pros and cons. It’s a matter of personal taste and judgement.
There’s no getting away from the fact that it can get very expensive both in terms of gear and discs. However, it is possible to dip your toe in the water at fairly modest cost with a ProJect turntable for example. My two sons and daughter have done just that with great success.
You don’t need a huge collection of discs. How often do you think someone with over a thousand plays every disc in their collection? Better to enjoy a few discs. I started out with just a dozen a year ago. Of course, I have many more now, but I am still a listener not a collector.
I find vinyl is a different sort of listening. I still have streaming alongside it to explore new music. I buy the vinyl version of albums that I particular like for a deeper dive into them and a more immersive experience.
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Unless you have vinyl to play and WANT to play it. OR… you want to collect vinyl and WANT to play it, get a turntable, but only if you are concerned with the nostalgia you feel by playing vinyl and you enjoy the ritual of handling and playing vinyl. If not, unless your vinyl rig costs $100K, your sound quality will be better playing digital or streaming. That’s my 2 cents.
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Go for it. It’s just better. Stay up late at night better. And don’t buy the BS about building an album collection. A lot of my faves came at $15-$25. Discogs is your friend.Forget about the ritual of handling the records, reading the inserts etc. Vinyl sounds better and in most cases a lot better.
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only if you do not want to play records....
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@mulveling is spot on.
1. the lp collector's price advantage over digital long ago disappeared decades ago. Even more important, the LP has become a fetish/ fad item driving up the price further.
2. digital playback has improved a lot
3. Driven by point 1, the world supply of original and analog represses from the era has diminished so much, except for classical. The jury is out on new LP reissues, many of which are mastered at 16-bit, 44 kHz. The AAA recordings are 50-200$ each.
3. here is the critical point: it depends on what type of music you listen to and when it was made
- If the music was born digital, play it back on digital equipment. I agree that 70s new wave sound awesome and better on LP, because point 3. If you think analog production of born-digital sounds better, just EQ it.
- Some music/recordings benefit from analog playback, which more pleasingly reveals the sound of the decay of instruments in the reverberant room in which they were recorded, so most classical, jazz, or folk from the 1950s - 70s. The complexity of the sound waves of massed instruments, acoustic instruments, voices, again, in a physical space, in my opinion, still isn't captured by digital recording or remastering (not arguing that the technology cannot capture it, but perhaps some other decisions are being made that produce less-pleasing recordings). Per New Wave and soul, I also love the way analog represents the artifacts of studio recordings. This is not a music snobbery argument, just a "right tool for the job" thing. If those recordings of those types of music are not important to you...
Finally, if you don't have a collection already, for all the reasons above, I would not start.
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Somewhere the term 'emotional' was used ("friends are emotional about their vinyl). That pretty much says it all. There is nothing wrong to 'like' vinyl. But terms like 'better' do not apply in this context.
I swore off vinyl some 40 years ago, and still have a hard time imagining how a (even small) mass (needle with coils/magnet, etc) gets 'shoved around' (accelerated, decelerated) say 15,000 times per second trying to follow the hills and valleys pressed into a tiny channel of a plastic disc, then modifying the analog output to be amplified and resemble the 'sound' of a violin for example.
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OP...If you ask the question "Would I be wasting my money to get a turntable?"....The answer is indeed YES
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rhg3 and ozzy62, thanks for the thoughts, I appreciate it. Not trying to hijack this thread at all. It’s been a tough couple of months. To the OP. I had been thinking to myself, as many of us do, where should my money go? For any audiophiles out there with pressing issues and needed to put money on necessities for the family or oneself, I would not buy a turntable. For anyone battling inner demons and possibly a drug or alcohol problem I would not place throwing money at albums or a turntable before counseling or just tackling those issues first. I have often heard the word “fun” associated with record albums and playing them. More often than with any other audio device. It’s probably true that many young people were instrumental and factored into the vinyl revival movement. So there is a part of me that says, if my issues are not too serious maybe I should through caution to the wind and get into vinyl a second time in my life. Just for the fun of it. It’s something that often we overlook… maybe because we take care of granny, or put our kids schooling first, soccer games and other people. In some cases, not all, it’s ok I think to treat ourselves and relax and enjoy our indulgences. Just a thought …
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A lot of good advice here - which pretty much adds up to "The Cartoon" above - "Don’t Waste Your Money" - unless:
1. You have a pretty decent collection of vinyl albums... and/or...
2. Lots of money to invest in acquiring such a collection of "high quality" vinyl... and... the time and patience / tolerance for frustrating detail (cleaning and de-ionizing your vinyl, filtering the pops and scratches without loss of signal quality,, never-ending upgrades of all the turntable, turntable components, and phono pre-amp, etc., etc.)......
3. Are single, without children and other family obligations...
4. Have such a bad case of OCD, that you are compelled to read threads like this... and... to invest lots of your money, time and patience into very, very small refinements in your sound quality... regardless of family obligations...
and...
5. Are prepared to extend your OCD case to SET tube amps, tubes and high efficiency OB speakers to accommodate the tube amps (ala DecWare, etc.)...
Did I mention... "LOT"S OF MONEY!"
Prolly less expensive to find a good analyst to help you recover from your OCD!
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Whether to buy a turntable or not depends on the value you put on "the analog magic". The simple answer is no, but that doesn't mean you should not buy a turntable, it is more complicated than that. In my personal set-up, I have about $25,000 in my turntable, arm, cartridge and phono section and that doesn't include buying records. To have a decent amount of records is another $25,000. If you get enjoyment and you have the disposable income and you are not depriving your family or the charitable causes you support, then go ahead.
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I had an fairly inexpensive audio setup when I decided to get rid of my 100 or so albums and inexpensive turntable. An article by Michael Fraemer made me decide to take another look at analogue. The first thing I did was buy a better cable from the turntable to the preamp. It helped a bit, but I'd be lying if I said it sounded better than CD. Then I bought a used Rega 3 for about $500. (This was mid-nineties.) Also a Sumiko Blue Point Special. I began to hear a bit of difference, especially in the Rega's speed as a result of its glass platter.
Fast forward through buying about a thousand albums and upgrading eventually to a VPI Prime Signature and Audio Research PH-7 with an EMT HD 006 cartridge, about $2,500 worth of gear. Now the main difference I hear with records is air. Even digital through my streamer at 192 resolution, which is damned good, lacks the air and warmth of a good analogue setup.
My main point is whether you feel committed to investing in analogue even though it might take a long while to upgrade your system, and even when you have upgraded, to be able to hear the difference. I guess my suggestion would be to visit an audio store or a friend who could demo a good streaming system versus a decent analogue rig. See what your ears tell you. Can you hear enough difference to invest time and money?
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I agree with "grislybutter" BUT I would ammend that with at least $3,000.00 and definitely put more emphasis on fiddling or tweaking. It's definitely not a sit and press the remote thing.
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@2psyop
Sorry for your loss. There is not much that compares to losing ones mother. I hope your new venture down the vinyl rabbit hole brings you the peace and closure you seek.
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The M33 is a nice piece of equipment.
Get a turntable if you want one, especially if you already have records or are interested in buying some. Playing and collecting records is fun. The cover art is fascinating and the liner notes are interesting (and big enough) to read. The sound will be fine (and probably improved by the digital trickery).
For your system I would recommend a Rega or Technics turntable (there are others that are just as good but this is a good starting place). The advantage to the Technics is the changeable head shell, allowing you to easily experiment with different cartridges.
Go for it!
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Hello Frit, your question is, should you get a turntable even though the signal will be going through a class “D” design. So it passes through digital. 1st thing you note, even thought the analog signal will pass through a digital format, you will still hear the difference of the sound of a turntable. Of course, if you could keep the signal 100% analog, that would be the best way but if it does pass through a digital format, you will still hear much of what the sound of a turntable does. I think the biggest question to ask is if it’s worth getting a turntable setup. I owned some of the most desirable items in hifi and I have 2 vinyl setups. Do I really appreciate their sound? Yes I do. Do I listen to them a lot? Not really because digital is faster and easier to get going. I would recommend to anyone that if they want to hear great music, they don’t need a turntable setup. But if someone is looking to expand their system and try to get even higher quality playback, then they could explore vinyl. But vinyl is also a totally different and very complex setup to get correct.
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@immatthewj it's not about money! On this coming Monday we will all be sooo rich anyway!
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"I spent 90% of my money on wine and women, the other 10% I wasted". Get a turntable and be happy! Joe
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Well, @grislybutter , if you are going to twist my arm and insist that I use your credit card(s) and/or debit card I guess I can see my way clear and consider myself up for our shopping trip. Are you going to also front me a few k so I can stock up on some vintage LPs?
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@immatthewj I can't stand how anti-vinyl you are, we are going to turntable shopping tomorrow weirdo
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Thanks for the info on that, @sls883 . I had no idea that there was that much to it. I just kind of thought that you popped one cartridge out and then snapped the new one in.
As I typed previously, this thread is making me feel better about not doing vinyl.
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@immatthewj I have installed cartridges on my Music Hall turntable. I bought a little scale to measure tracking force. It wasn't terribly difficult, but I don't know if I had the tracking angle perfect, etc. I eyeballed it. When I bought my Hana cartridge, I had it installed by the dealer. They tweaked on it for quite a few minutes using special tools to get it to their liking. I'm sure with a little homework (YouTube videos) and some gauges, I could do it. It's not rocket science, but it has to be done properly to get the most out of your cartridge.
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@immatthewj I did not want to talk about it but if you had to ask...
I in fact tried to build one. I requested a Lego figure for trump but no at the factory accepted the request for mental health reasons.
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@2psyop very sorry for your loss. I think your Mom would want you to listen to your stereo. Maybe even play a record of one of her favorite singers.
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I’d get one with a cartridge unless you or a friend can install the cartridge.
@sls883 , is a cartridge that hard to install? This is a serious question, as I have not owned a TT and played LPs since '82.
(Following this thread is making me more and more happy that I have sold out to digital.)
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@thecarpathian , possibly because you have been watching Katie Turd or Anderson Pooper or Jake Crapper on the 24 hour news channels?
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@immatthewj ,
Why am I suddenly batting flashbacks of poop jokes??!
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@grislybutter , but seriously, was that mini golf course you built located at Mar a Lego?
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@thecarpathian
Thanks for the nice comment. You always have good advice. Much appreciated.
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@immatthewj
I have never done any golf except for miniature golf
I once built a miniature golf course from Lego. The ball kept getting stuck, never seen Lego figures cussing so much.
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@2psyop ,
Sorry about your mom, man.
Buying a turntable and playing those records is a great way to reminisce and stay connected with those good memories.
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The decision to get into vinyl is a personal choice like everything. I think a turntable setup is one the most time consuming and critical aspects of any piece of gear. This component takes up the audiophile’s time more than other pieces of gear…to sound right. BTW I just bought a turntable myself. Also, I bought a good cartridge, a good platform base, a good phono amp, a record cleaning system and a dustcover. It IS an investment. Why did I do it? Well my mother died last month and I have been grieving. I have not listened to my stereo since this happened. When I was young, we listened to record albums of her favorite singers. I thought it would make me feel like listening to music again if I bought a turntable.
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Get a turntable. Get some of your favorite albums. Then, if you’re like me, an obsessive audiophile, the rest will follow. See you in 1 year.
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@mswale this is bizarre. I browsed a few record stores in Boston and Minneapolis and the selection was always underwhelming and the prices high. In San Diego, where I live, it's hard to find a record over $20. Usually it's one version of a record that has other versions for under $10 in the same bin. Same in LA, reasonable prices. I think it has to do with the weather. (I can explain)
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Do I need a turntable? Probably not. Would it give me pleasure to have an attractive piece of kit to play with and look at and reacquaint myself with the 75 or so albums from the 60’s - 70’s that I have tucked away? Absolutely. Therein lies the benefit I guess.
So, your mind was already made and you were looking for confirmation?
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@mahler123 "You’ve self identified as one who places significant value on the aesthetics of vinyl, which renders sound quality issues as secondary "
Excuse me if I find that statement somewhat condescending. And you are not the first member on this site that has made disparaging comments about buying equipment for the aesthetics and the sheer joy many of us get from the ownership of beautiful equipment. I don't find that love of equipment and love of music are mutually exclusive. Just my opinion but one I'm sure is shared by many. Cheers.
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@kijanki "In class D amplifier "Voltage" is converted to "Duty Cycle", both analog - meaning there is no discrete steps (unlimited resolution)."
true, only if clock / sync “digital” signal is ignored. class D can be theoretically lossless, but design implementation is limited by jittery oscillator and not ideal output analog LPF.
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@lewm I'm in Seattle, we have over a dozen good record stores in the area. A few more that are just ok, or really specialized.
I'm telling you, it's almost impossible to get a $10 record, unless it's trashed, or at a thrift store. Was just putting some new sleeves on a couple used ones, was myself surprised at what I paid for them. On Van Morrison was $32, Taj Mahal was $38.
On the flip side, I do have a few used records that were in the $10-15 range, One Van Hallen comes to mind, but the cover looks very used.
It really does not matter where I go they are all over $20. With that, they are also all in very good shape. A couple were still sealed, or likely never used.
here are 2 of my normal stores.
https://easystreetonline.com
https://hivoltagerecords.com
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I also recommend the new Rega P3 with the Nd5 cartridge. And I would have to think hard to find a record I own or yet to own that costs more than $15 on ebay or discogs
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To experience an old-fashioned style of entertainment occasionally— that's all. I grew up with LPs and Telefunken, but I don’t miss them anymore. The availability of decent LPs is a major issue. A full year of Qobuz subscription could only buy 4 LPs.
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Mswale, I don’t know where you’re buying your used LPs, but someone is gouging you on the prices. Yes, for certain jazz LPs that have gained iconic status, and for perfect condition, one can pay $20 and up, way up. But other works by the same artists are nearly always available for $10 and less. Here I’m referring to high quality sellers who’ve preselected the records they sell to eliminate junk. From lesser sources, you can pay much less. I think one can assemble an excellent collection of 1000 LPs for $10,000 or less and over the course of a few years. That’s buying one or several at a time.
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Music Direct has the P3 on sale with different options that include a premounted cartridge. I’d get one with a cartridge unless you or a friend can install the cartridge. Your amp has a phono stage for mm or moving coil if I’m not mistaken.
I would call Music Direct and get their advice.
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So go for it. You’ve self identified as one who places significant value on the aesthetics of vinyl, which renders sound quality issues as secondary
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Thank you all for the responses and a very entertaining conversation. This hobby can be an amazing rabbit hole and as I have started, innocently, to consider equipment I’ve begun to appreciate that I may have entered the rabbit hole of all rabbit holes.
Do I need a turntable? Probably not. Would it give me pleasure to have an attractive piece of kit to play with and look at and reacquaint myself with the 75 or so albums from the 60’s - 70’s that I have tucked away? Absolutely. Therein lies the benefit I guess. I don’t have a $100,000 system or thousands to spend on pursuing some holy grail, but the joy of adding something new to my system keeps drawing me in and that pretty red Rega P3 I have my eye on would look so nice. That and the memories of taking that new Beatles or Dylan out of the sleeve for the first time and setting the needle down on that spinning wax are still sweet.
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@bigtwin , I have never done any golf except for miniature golf, but wouldn't the distance one can hit a ball with a new club actually be measurable?
As far as the "hot tweeter," that was mentioned a couple of times on a thread in 'speakers' but no one defined it for me. I was thinking, however, of something along the lines of what @thecarpathian spelled out.
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@grislybutter I can say with some authority, that a golfers constant upgrading of equipment is not unlike this hobby. The endless pursuit of the smallest improvement. And the honeymoon period with a new club is much like the confirmation bias with that new cable. I'm sure I hear a difference, is just like I'm sure I'm hitting the ball further......... 🤣
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I thought about how to convince someone to start with vinyl. None of my arguments make much sense. I guess it's like an avid golfer trying to explain golf to me.
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My Anthem AVR converts analog to digital and then back. I did not realize this when I purchased it. I guess I assunemed that if I was using the analog in it would stay analog. I've learned that the reason this is, at least for Anthem, is their room correction. Although a bit disappointed to learn that , I'm still happy with the product. I run my fronts thoroug a separate 3 channel Anthem aml via pre outs on the AVR but the analog still gets converted to digital before getting turned back to digital. Knowing this i still bought a Rega TT and a good record sounds more "real" than it's digital counterpart. Just more dynamic. Ultimately i will completely separate my digital from analog via a switch and separate tube integrated. When I want to rock out to 60's or 70's classics or blues it'll be analog. When I want to shake the house with techno or metal it'll be digital.
Just my 2 cents from a new hobbies
Cheers!
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@immatthewj Are you sure you didn't mean Hot Tuna? Live at Berkeley '69? Smoke it if you got it. 🤣
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