Why should audiophile deniers be allowed on an audiophile forum?
Why should we be subjected to audiophile deniers, on a site dedicated to audio?
It’s antithetical to the hobby and adds nothing to the pursuit. I want to quote something from another thread.
@djones51 wrote "exposing bull products like "audiophile switches, cables, fuses " and other highly questionable devices that serve no purpose"
What then, is the purpose of people with this agenda being on this site? To “expose bull products.” It’s fine for someone to post they tried a product and it didn’t work for them, but to dismiss entire product categories is not a discussion that belongs on an enthusiast forum.
Would a car enthusiast site stand for this type of post?
Try going on a Porsche forum, just for example, and posting that your Mustang is just as fast 0-60 and that others poster’s claims about their driving experience is “dubious.” See how long that will be tolerated
There are plenty of sites to poke fun at audiophile’s obsession with cables, power conditioners etc. Why does it belong here, especially when we can’t mute specific posters?
What’s next? Arguing that speakers that measure the same must sound the same and that we are all suckers for buying expensive speakers? I thought we got rid of trolling?
Isn’t it obvious with all the ASR related posts here lately we are being trolled?
A couple of months back I read a post here about someone that ordered a new cat8 cable from China. I tried it and posted back my fantastic results for others to benefit.
Personally that’s the kind of forum I’m interested in, not to come here to be challenged about what I hear and that since it can’t be measured so it must be “dubious.”
Until audiophiles allow or at least accept blind testing, they'll likely never be taken very seriously.
Back in the late sixties a guy named Amar Bose did some research. He got students to listen to sections of music where some frequencies were removed. His sample group was fairly large and he concluded that you could remove some frequencies and the majority would not notice. That was part of the development for the Bose 901 loudspeaker.
So his blind testing was flawed in that just because a lot of people could not recognize a difference doesn't mean a difference didn't exist. And let me emphasize this, an audible difference did exist. After reading his thesis, it became clear to me that blind testing is a flawed concept.
Audiophile (as with any ...phile" just means people who are ’emotional’ about a subject, and beyond (measurable) reason. Since there is no objective way to, the door is wide open for ’opinions’.
Other examples are discussions about GOAT (any), cars, etc.
So, the ’audiphile’ "denier" is just as ’right’ as the ’audiophile’ who stipulates that the powerline going or one brand of wall outlet has a big impact on the sound.
If it were a true science, there wouldn’t be any ....phile out there. Just data.
While these kinds of audiophiles exist, an audiophile is actually someone who likes music and music reproduction purest to the source as possible. You are an audiophile and so am I. Just like any other group, we are not as monolithic as we would like to be. We have our fools and our savants. There is no test for membership, it’s quite a large tent 😀 and that’s how I like it.
I think what it boils down to is that a whole lot of people like to criticize the items other people spend their money on. You have the right to criticize. I have the right to ignore.
I think in some cases in is like The Emperor's New Clothes. If you were to do a blind test, how many people would hear a significant difference? I do think if you buy expensive speaker's you should pair them with an expensive amplifier, as they work together to reveal more detail.
Let's remember that "free speech" refers to freedom from GOVERNMENT censorship. Private forums can censor, or refuse to censor, anything or anybody, for any reason or no reason. Doing so may be wise, or it may be stupid, but it's within their legitimate power.
There's an online forum called English Language Police. The moderator is a hardcore descriptivist. Call them out for endorsing deplorable usage, and they delete your critique as contrary to the house ideology. Well, that pisses me off. But it's a private forum and they can censor whatever they wish, thereby creating an echo chamber whose sole virtue is shielding the moderator's emotional investment in the truth of his dogma.
If you banned "audiphile deniers" where would you draw the line - and who would be tasked to come up with the categories of denial to allow that line to be drawn?
BTW, if I deny that I am an audiophile, does that make me an audiophile denier?
The quotation of questionable source that advocates "never learning from people that always agree with you" springs to mind.
IMHO audiofoolery and audio myths permeate the industry, but scammers and conmen/women across all walks of life have existed since time immemorial. That said; I don’t support berating anyone for their beliefs. Obviously any intent to cause harm is excluded.
If a friend discussed buying "audio rocks" or something equally inane, I’d gently caution them, but if they persisted; I’d back off immediately, as it’s their money to spend as they wish.
I’m also a firm believer in diminishing returns and cannot personally discern sound quality improvements (differences maybe) in equipment after a certain price point. BUT: That’s me. If others wish to chase "perfection" so be it. I will probably benefit indirectly, via trickle down technology anyway.
Exclusivity and cliques are also a big turnoff for me. Can't stand that gibberish. It's synonymous with inbreeding.
I don't see why trolls should be given an equal footing in a forum dedicated to music enjoyment and the gear that gets us there. F*ck free speech. That's been the rallying call of trolls, naysayers and provocateurs since, forever.
This place is not a confessional, a psychiatrist's office or some bastard form of a rappers duel. Nor is it a place to proselytize or strut around with one's sandwich board.
If you have an agenda to disrupt, annoy and troll, take a hike. You're not welcome here. So stop with the "I've got a right to free speech BS". No. You don't. You're just a few rungs down the ladder from yelling "fire!" in a crowded theater and need to grow up. Go get your kicks playing on the freeway yelling at the cars that you have the right to be there, or go swimming in a lake full of gators and tell them it's a free country and you can swim wherever you want. I need the laugh.
or is being a troll is being a provocator times to times to stir the pot??
Some here are born with truth, armed with truth, and decide who is and who is not a troll...like some pope...
In my experience here trolls are not so common, most people here are people with a strong bias, we all have our own biases, i dont want to ban people save in exceptional case...
I prefer discussion with ARGUMENTS....
no one is able to PROVOKE ME why?
Because i can have arguments...and i can recognize if i am wrong with someone for some reason...
i dont want and will not call anybody here a "troll"...
I dont see that often...
What i see is sometimes some people time to time troll some discussion... But for godsake it is EASY to answer without insulting people...myself i certainly stir the pot sometimes... Am i a troll?
Why qualify someone of troll so easily?
Guess why?
Dividing people more is stupid...The good and the bad really? Some like to clothe themselves in "truth"...
I prefer clear and rational discussions...
i hate censorship... I dont hate any alleged "trolls" qualified so by a "pope"...
I like people of ANY kind, from any opinions, and from any ideology...
But i want to discuss not banning people... I even like the pope here... 😁😊
And who has the innate right to proclaim this save a "pope" :
«I don’t see why trolls should be given an equal footing in a forum dedicated to music enjoyment and the gear that gets us there. F*ck free speech. That’s been the rallying call of trolls, naysayers and provocateurs since, forever.»
Sorry i like free speech more than your proclaimed self rightfulness ...
Why not loving people who are not in accordance with our own "truth"?
I love millercarbon and nonoise alike... why?
Because they have strong character... And i am nor republican nor democrat this help a lot !
But i have also a strong character...And i am not perfect this is why i may apologize time to time...
😁😊
About free speech: the great Voltaire involved in all injustices combats of his time once said:
«Father, I hate what you write, but I will give
my life so that you can continue to write.»
These words are the sign of greatness...
Who will dare to contradict that?
The fathers of America constitution perfectly know Voltaire greatness, guess what comes from this fact ?
Ok, I have to agree with the OP here. This is an "audiophile" forum where like-minded individuals come to discuss and debate. This does not mean that any j***a** can just come in and beak off because they don't have anything better to do. There are forums for a reason. It would be like me going into a food forum and saying "All you b**ches suck at cooking!" That would probably be it for any future posting there. So a whole thread gets deleted because of 1 or more individuals? It's really a kick in the nuts (or groin) for all the people who invested their time and effort. Who really gets hurt here? Exactly, the the backbone of the forum. It's about time to get some nads and do the right thing. If you can't relate and/or debate politely and constructively, then maybe your energy can be used someplace else.
A cooking forum is way more in a thin focus about world matter than an audiophile forum...
Here we speak about commercial, geopolitical, philosophical, scientific , and many others matter IMPLICATED in the business and in the hobby...
No cooking forum debate about inflated price of wheat...
Look at the vast varieties of audio threads and their opening question...
Then i agree with the politeness and constructive part,but it is impossible for all to agree on all matters RELATED to audio...
Try to make a list of matters related to audio... good luck, you will review all matters who exist even zoology...For example the different reactions of animals to sound and music...Even mathematics are related to audio by acoustic and digitral Fourier analysis...What a bat can hear? and what is listening is a neurology problem also...
Then will you ban some mathematician contesting the use of Fourier analysis in the definition of what a sound is?
Will you ban someone who discuss geopolitic and postal fees and all problems linked to world wide audio industry?
I think we must BAN NO ONE....
It seems the fashion in Canada and in America now is to BAN everything we dont like...
Difficult and insane job...By insane people sorry....
The issue is not "denial" or even "affirmation" -- it's claims without evidence or reasoning.
That's why calls for "free speech" are really misplaced. They're like asking mom and dad to settle a fight that the kids should settle themselves.
The issue the OP described is not something to adjudicate with rules but with shared norms. The best way for a group to reprimand baseless claims -- affirming or denying -- is to push back, counter-argue, shame, or ignore. Not call for rules from above. Because after all, all a conversation really has are the norms it creates for itself.
Some purists here just don't seem to get it. This is not a book one can choose not to read and lay down (or toss in the garbage). This type of venue relies on good intentions and honesty, above all else. All of this is done remotely so all the pontificating on what transpires in a public (not virtual) space really can't be applied here, so we rely on people behaving civilly.
When they fail to behave civilly and refuse to stay on topic, we are now stuck with them and they know it. Remote as we are, we're all part of a larger, captive audience and it seems that some take great joy in disrupting, so what I said above still applies. That freeway and lake are beckoning...heed their siren call.
people get to come here, say what they want - if it is out of line, mods may intervene, or other users can call b-s, as it is also their right to do so
The cooking forum was just an example, it doesn't matter what topic. The bottom line is having a mature, respectful atmosphere. Of course people aren't going to agree on everything but there will be somethings...that isn't the issue here. The issue is how people interact with one another.
I am ok hilde45 with what you just said because the only common norm i see is politeness and logical arguments...
We cannot like someone else just said define rigousrously the topic of many thread in advance to be PURE AUDIO MATTER, if we want so it will be necessary to arbitrarily condemn some thread questions... i dont like that... I prefer some chaos to the lost of freedom...
Anyway what means staying on pure audio matter? 😁😊
For example: the discussion we have right now seems civil to me in this thread...And it is not pure audio matter at all...
To be frank i love too much people here to enjoy ONLY PURE AUDIO MATTER subject...
Anyway i know what the important matter in audio better than most: acoustic/psycho-acoustic...
I joke here for sure,
but i am also serious... Who is perfect? Not me... 😁😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊
Please dont ban me...
Thanks....
«The best rule is one rule: love each other like yourself... is it not the best rule?»-Anonymus Smith
«The best rule are the most difficult to apply»- anonymus ruler
Friends, we are getting far afield from the original post which was about people who's seeming agenda is to be disruptive rather than helpful to the group. Yes, individual rights are important. We should be allowed to criticize. But criticism of something you have NO experience is invalid. It becomes even more invalid when you imply that someone is a liar, based solely of some idea you have without any experience with that item or others based on the same principle of operation. Then it becomes more ridiculous when you imply that science backs up your assertion, all the while not having done one second of observation yourself. The same applies when you base an opinion on scientific inquiry which has never addressed the validity of said product. But it gets even more ridiculous when the skeptic is backed into a corner where science cannot rescue him/her who then says that science is ever changing. Well duh! You cannot have it both ways. But they try because its not about finding truth. Its about submission to their rigid rules Scientism where they have deemed truth to align with their thinking only. Then they call on free speech when they are called out as if they do NOT attempt to shut down every opinion which they disagree with.!!
So the problem again comes down to who's ox is being gored. This is where the double standard comes in. Many will willfully gore someone's ox because they disagree with the owner of the ox who like the color of his ox. . Yet they often cry the loudest when their ox gets gored by the other in a defensive move. Kinda like they are crying due to the OP.
Free speech CANNOT be sustained where double standards become the norm. We see this in our society at large and of course that has spilled over into everyday life. This is the offense which the OP, myself and others are pointing to. Its NOT the Opinion which needs to be silenced. It’s the childish double standard in which the opinion is expressed. A child may be broken of such offensive mannerisms and taught better. But it is reprehensible coming from grown people. And the offense is further exacerbated when those who are offensive, try to justify their treachery and act as if they are the victim, when in fact, they are the aggressor.. So again, Share your opinion, but do so without being offensive
FWIW I don’t need to agree with someone to respect them. If you teach me something you have helped me. That is a friendly move. But when you slander me and call me a liar, when you have no proof is far from being helpful to anyone. And is against forum rules.
^---- This. "FWIW I don’t need to agree with someone to respect them. If you teach me something you have helped me. That is a friendly move. But when you slander me and call me a liar, when you have no proof is far from being helpful to anyone. And is against forum rules."
Gotta love it when people put words in your mouth and go on to elaborate on a lie. Something tells me they've faced complaints of them in other venues (and in real life) and they've gotten good at not dealing directly but going off on tangents with their filibusters. They used to call it blinding one with BS.
Try going on a Porsche forum, just for example, and posting that your Mustang is just as fast 0-60
The Mustang might be faster than the Porsche. The way to find out is put them on the track and measure their times, but you know that goes against the orthodoxy, "It looks like it should go faster."
They way to find out is not by looking or listening to
bull products like "audiophile switches, cables, fuses " and other highly questionable devices that serve no purpose"
but by measuring and testing them.
What's tolerated here is obvious ignorance about science and common sense. No on is "trolling you" sweetheart just trying to add a touch of reality in a world subjected to believing everything one is told.
This has nothing to do with free speech, feel free to flag the post.
I totally get what you mean, you can stand up for yourself. But when someone comes in swearing and being totally disrespectful, this creates a negative atmosphere, and when let to fester gets out of control. It's best to deal with it right away.
I had only two real "heavy" discussions here for the last 7 years...
One i will pass over...No relation to audio matters...
But the second one was also with someone i disagree with and it was about audio matter... . Our discussion last 2 months daily here...
The man was a very knowledgeable man in audio, way more than most here, me included ( I know this for a fact trust me)...
But no one is perfect...
I realized discussing "heavily" with him that he was not right about something important in audio : the timbre perception...
To make a story short i am indebdted to him so much , i wrote to him to thank him at the end in spite of the "heavy" sometimes hard discussion, because without him i would had never made my most important personal discovery in acoustic/psycho-acoustic...
Then you will understand why i try to appreciate all people, even if i heavily disagree with some, and why discussion based on arguments are so important...
My search to answer him because his knowledge was more than mine in all audio aspects , teach me a lot... At the end i made my most important discovery and i am greatly thankful to him... And he was perceived as a "troll" and act sometimes like one and he provoked some reaction in me not always positive because i am not perfect either...
Imagine now that this dude has been banned from here or cancelled because some described him as a troll?
i will have never made my search in acoustic to answer him and i will had never made my discovery...
Than my most precious moment here were with someone i disagree completely about something...I thank him till today...
Our best adviser are sometimes some we call our foes...
I dont want censorship of any kind... Save restricting the amount of insults someone can give to another one for sure...Politeness and arguments only....
For sure you are right about this kind of behaviour...What differentiate us is the amount of tolerance perhaps and the way we can judge circonstance ...But you are right about the principle... I dont want to disagree with you on this at all...
But when someone comes in swearing and being totally disrespectful, this creates a negative atmosphere, and when let to fester gets out of control. It’s best to deal with it right away.
For sure you are right about this kind of behaviour...What differentiate us is the amount of tolerance perhaps and circonstance ...But you are right about the principle... I dont want to disagree with you on this...
I understand where you are coming from here. You are willing to put up with so much BS because in the end it's worth it. I get it. But for others participating in the thread or others looking in, it's an ugly situation.
I am perhaps guilty of loving to discuss too much... 😁😊
But it is better too much tolerance than less...
The only thing i cannot admit is insults with no logical arguments...i can accept insults against me IF WITH logical arguments...My back is enough solid... 😊 Anyway i will answer...Politely is the better...
And a thread is not a "jail" were some are in captivity... If you dont like the "cellmates" you go to another thread no?
I understand where you are coming from here. You are willing to put up with so much BS because in the end it’s worth it. I get it. But for others participating in the thread or others looking in, it’s an ugly situation.
@immatthewj The "far left" eh? You mean the ones that invaded Iraq, separated parents from their children at the border, and stormed the Capitol? Oh, yeah, I'm really really afraid of them. Turn off Faux, please, or try to eat healthier. Something is not firing.
The 0-60 of a Mustang can be objectively tested. Almost all things claimed to improve a stereo's sound are done via "because I hear a difference and I know what I hear."
Until audiophiles allow or at least accept blind testing, they'll likely never be taken very seriously. Especially when some believe stuff like these things (literally magic crystals) make a difference in a system. https://walkeraudio.com/?product=black-diamond-room-treatment-crystals
Agreed.
Audiophiles are already out on somewhat of a limb already but if we were to restrict debate and criticism we may just find ourselves hopelessly detached from the rest of humanity.
No doubt, some might even prefer it that way. Especially when they have a vested financial interest in promoting certain products.
However, the rest of us understand that this is a forum to discuss matters musical, and not a mere vehicle for untrammelled free advertising.
In any case, isn't it always better to allow the dear reader to take in the various arguments and ultimately make up their own mind?
It's all too easy to get sucked in by someone else's apparent enthusiasm, even if it seems to change month after month. In fact, this was the main lesson I learned after decades of reading hi-fi reviews.
Blind listening tests and comparison against long term reference products should be mandatory if reviews are to be anything other than mere flavour of the month opinions.
I understand that times are tough and it's important to support the audio industry. I love audio, and I want to see it thrive. Surely anyone who seeks to have access to higher performance playback equipment deserves the best chance to access it, don't they?
If so, then forums like this one can certainly do their part, but let's not kid ourselves that get rich quick fly-by-night scammers don't exist.
You can have your own opinions but you/we should never be allowed to cross the line of civilized discourse and take the 'I disagree with you as my experience was different' position into an attack on the intelligence of the poster disagreed with. That distinction is why many internet comments sections are gone now.
audio2design. He was one of the most irritating people on the forums and they let him disrupt every single person on this site for MONTHS.
Audio2design was just one of his many names. He must have come back here at least ten times I can recall. AtDavid, Dannad, Robertdid, Cindy(something),... I really lost track of them. Perhaps someone can come up with a more comprehensive list :-)
Oh.... I am pretty sure he is lurking around, and reading this (hello!)
What's happening on Twitter is not at all like what's happening here. Way to go out yourself for all to see. The whole motive behind Musk's move is to excite TFG's base so he can manipulate the stock (again) before he dumps it, just like he did with Dogecoin, fleecing the rubes who followed his tweets.
Further, playing music to someone that they are unfamiliar with on a system that either isn't theirs or doesn't sonically resemble theirs under the provisions of 'blind testing is absolute' is a waste of time. Their innate framework for identifying and analyzing the music as played with any changes made is far too different in most cases to allow for a true comparison. Guessing is not analysis.
And that's just for starters. Bring in system synergy (or the lack thereof), hearing ability (or the lack thereof), etc and the Holy Grail of blind testing really isn't an absolute at all.
This is just more us versus them mentality. Sick of that. Don’t fall for it.
My guy misbehaved and was punished now it’s all those evil people with minds of their own who got to go. It’s pretty petty and juvenile really. Act like an adult and obey the rules and all is fine.
If an opinion differs from one’s own so what? Just stick by your convictions. Bad audiophile naysayers can’t really hurt you. Don’t be a baby! See that’s not so difficult is it?
I'm a newbie here over the past few months as I've gotten back into audio, so I'm hardly qualified to give an opinion on the quality or utility of individual components. I'll just note that the OP's complaint could really cut both ways on these boards. For every skeptic who questions the ROI of dropping megabucks on cables and interconnects, there are just as many high enders who look down their noses at value priced components ("mid-fi, at best" seems to be the mantra). It seems like in both directions these judgments are passed without the benefit of actually hearing the component in question.
And I have to add, I have friends who have traded their Porsches for Mustang Cobras, and no knowledgeable auto enthusiast would overlook the capabilities of a performance-focused Mustang. The two cars have very different means of accomplishing the same results (going very fast around a track), but it really comes down to how you want to get there.
Try going on a Porsche forum, just for example, and posting that your Mustang is just as fast 0-60 and that others poster’s claims about their driving experience is “dubious.” See how long that will be tolerated
To the op, @emailists, that you made this part of your original posts seems to show lack of understanding of what an "audiophile" forum is. If this (or similar) forums was a Passlabs forum, and someone came on and said my "Pick you amp" was 10x better, than your example would apply. This is not a Passlabs forum.
You appear to want to be exposed to only one path to achieving acoustic nirvana. That is both boring, isolationist, and flawed. Both sides of the argument can have value to share with the other side. One side can share with the other how deviating from "perfect" can result in something that you like more, while the other side, can show them, once communicated, how to better achieve their goals.
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