Some people in this forum need to get out of their residence and interact with real people for a while.
Why should audiophile deniers be allowed on an audiophile forum?
Why should we be subjected to audiophile deniers, on a site dedicated to audio?
It’s antithetical to the hobby and adds nothing to the pursuit. I want to quote something from another thread.
@djones51 wrote "exposing bull products like "audiophile switches, cables, fuses " and other highly questionable devices that serve no purpose"
What then, is the purpose of people with this agenda being on this site? To “expose bull products.” It’s fine for someone to post they tried a product and it didn’t work for them, but to dismiss entire product categories is not a discussion that belongs on an enthusiast forum.
Would a car enthusiast site stand for this type of post?
Try going on a Porsche forum, just for example, and posting that your Mustang is just as fast 0-60 and that others poster’s claims about their driving experience is “dubious.” See how long that will be tolerated
There are plenty of sites to poke fun at audiophile’s obsession with cables, power conditioners etc. Why does it belong here, especially when we can’t mute specific posters?
What’s next? Arguing that speakers that measure the same must sound the same and that we are all suckers for buying expensive speakers? I thought we got rid of trolling?
Isn’t it obvious with all the ASR related posts here lately we are being trolled?
A couple of months back I read a post here about someone that ordered a new cat8 cable from China. I tried it and posted back my fantastic results for others to benefit.
Personally that’s the kind of forum I’m interested in, not to come here to be challenged about what I hear and that since it can’t be measured so it must be “dubious.”
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It is interesting that the threads that get the most participation are ones that deal with free speech. Either someone complains there is too much of it—“I shouldn’t have to read other people that mock me”—or complain that they have been censored by the site. The first group strikes me as a bit to fragile. No, being mocked, frequently by people who can be reasonably classified as idiots, isn’t fun. Ultimately the way to deal with them is to ignore them , like our mothers taught us. You ask a question about a fuse, 10 people answer, 8 are meanies and two are people with whom you wish to interact, ignore the eight. Free speech doesn’t mean that you are required to interact with every jerk out there. The second group gets more sympathy from me, but usually when they have been censored they have violated TOS . We may not agree with the TOS, but this is a private site so our “rights” here are not unlimited. |
It seems most people don't understand Free Speech in the constitutional sense. It doesn't apply on this forum, this is a private group, you have to become a member in order to participate. It's no different than Augusta National not allowing women to be members at least up until a few years ago. Like them this place can discriminate till their hearts content. Most no more look into the reality of how the law works than how a fuse or cable works. Enjoy your ignorance. |
Everybody knows it is a private site with rule... Even the dumbest here... The question about free speech is the question relative to our attitude toward others... Listening others, for example people who disagree with many audiophiles subjective approach , or listening those impressions is practising civilized free speech ATTITUDE .. Similarly listening those who are skilled in objective measuremnentsand could teach us something .... Censoring or asking for censororing or attacking people with no politeness is an attack on free speech consensual attitude here even in a private regulated site... It is not so much the matter discussed here which attract the moderators action , i observed it, but most of the times agtressive action between us, especially insults, agressivity and degenative discussion branding IMPOLITE name, labelling opinion one against the other, political one being the worst... Then free speech is not only a constitution principle limited rightfully or not by the owner will or by the miderators here it is ESPECIALLY a consensual attitude and habit between us discussing...And this attitude had the same importance than the constitutional principle itself... It is the same difference and the same relation which exist between ethic and moral and laws and rules... Correct me if i am wrong... it is my opinion and feeling... 😁😊
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To understand the philosophy, that’s taken over a certain segment of our society: one need look no further than Marcuse’s brief enchiridion, on how to marginalize others, 'Repressive Tolerance'. https://www.marcuse.org/herbert/publications/1960s/1965-repressive-tolerance-fulltext.html Orwellian/Machiavellian to the core and being followed to a tee!
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Freedom of speech for sure, no one wants to be muted but does not mute when necessary. For the fidelity of discussion better use facts coming from true experience! General views, rejection due to incopetence of understanding, inexperience, kind of stubbornness, are not credited and better ignored. Making fun of someone who does not know what can be achieved with good cabling (example) is the same as mocking those who have invested some money on them. Funny but most disputes are about cables, fuses, plugs, tweaking in general and not about room acoustics, resonance.....(not catchy subjects or deep waters). But we have to accept also that we people do not have the same education, understanding, and mostly sensitivity in hearing. What i have learned all these years being involved with this hobby is to experiment, be patient, and keep ears and mind open and listen in full working condition, ears, brain, heart, stomach, skin. Life does exist before and after measurements or laws. |
You are right on the spot... Marcuse is an inferior version of Marx who is himself an inferior version of Bernard Mandeville, the real thinker BEFORE Adam Smith of capitalism-neo-liberalism historical seeds at the time of industrial revolution... But the machiavellian genius of Mandevillle come from the abandonment of the classical education model coming from the Renaissance (Pico of La Mirandole) based on the spiritual value at the root of western civilization for an alleged more "lucid" education system based on individualism egocentrism and greed and ambition which are supposed to be the "normal" POSITIVE working of society and economy at the end (the "hiden hand" regulating the market is an idea borrowed and presented in a more "morally" neutral way, it comes directly from "the fable of the bees" in Mandeville Faustian bargain and deeper observation of mankind ).. Mandeville anticipated Freud by 2 centuries, not only Marx... Adam Smith ideas comes directly in an attenuated and less deep expression from Bernard Mandeville influence on him; the true Genius and "our master of us all "said Hayek in a famous conference in front of 8 future nobel prizes in economy in the beginning of the last century speaking of Mandeville... The radical cut from the original spiritual Greek ideal of renaissance for the egoistic model of man is at the origin of these 3 successive perversions: nazism, marxism and Stalinism, and neo liberalism... The three ideologies pretend to educate the masses not to be independent free thinker like the Renaissant man but individual at the service of the social Hive (Mandeville) because it is INEVITABLE...Like in Marcuse discourse discriminative tolerance ONLY is inevitable...The general idea of tolerance being an illusion of an hypocrital elite which must be destroyed... The actual crisis of the world is a spiritual war between forces who want to enslave humanity and UPROOT it complety from his cultural and spiritual history, for a mad dystopia of social engineering (transhumanism being his last mortal avatar) ... And some other cultural forces who reacted violently to this Occidental madness...Occident has forgotten his roots....His wisdom became madness...And this madness has provoked another mad violent reaction... This world is now a sleepwalking violent theater for three great wars... No civilization can forget his roots and survive...And no civilization can live without roots...
Like said John Cowper Powys describing a technocratic hell through de Sade mouth: they are all working on terrible experiments in "white robe clothes" but for the "common good" and only for the common good now... This technocratic hell is the children of the Mandeville ’s Hive... Even Orwell and Huxley geniuses are anticipasted centuries before by Mandeville underestimated genius...Machiavel himself appear a children scout before Mandeville indeed and beside him ... The work of Mandeville is thin but his thougth deep and his influence on the future thinkers who will counted in social and economic thinking will be without equal and lasting from Smith to admirative Hayek and all his disciples... And completely new...The self apponted "elite" will understand him and will derive the appropriate conclusions till this day...
i cannot go into details futher here...
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LOL! Apparently free speech exists on this site via private messages as I got some hate mail last night via Audiogon mail. |
More nonsense from those who don’t have the slightest idea. Good people on both sides is BS. There are no good Skinheads or Neonazis. To tolerate such is suicide to society.
Karl Popper |
How do you think to exterminate them or eliminating them ? censorship? labor boot camp? Militia anti fascist? listen to this dude , he know what he is talking about... One of the great american nowadays... Good people on both side is BS you said?.... For you all is black and white with no understanding necessary, the only way to answer will be the same as the extremist: violence and censorship ? Take a lesson here:
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@audition__audio no, I don't mind. I tried to share the title of the email last night, but evidently it was a word that the mods deemed to be obscene, although the word doesn't particularly bother me. The content of the email called me that word, and I would be happy to print it, but it appears that the mods don't like the word. |
@djones51 + 1 |
By the way there is a difference between unlimited naive tolerance denounced by Popper correctly so , and critical and selective tolerance a la Marcuse...Between these two there is, GUIDING tolerance, behind it and in front of it education and communication, because tolerance is not enough alone, an education toward communication and understanding which refuse abdication in front of agression and refuse censorship is the ONLY way... Listen to Daryl Davis...He know even more than Popper and Marcuse...He is more a renaissance man in his spirit than a conditioned unfree propagandist from the left or right propaganda.... Like i said in my post above speaking of Mandeville, The occident has forgot his roots...Man like Davis remind us of this....
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Perhaps in order to understand just why censorship is bad we should take a look at its most ardent proponents, the extreme right and especially nowadays, the extreme left (some might argue the moderate left too).
Perhaps also a sense of perspective should prevail, no one is advocating mass murder, ethnic cleansing or racially based conspiracy theories. Look upon it how you will but you simply cannot put discussions about the efficacy of sample rates, cables, fuses and blind listening into the same category. In any, case I've never witnessed a fight breaking out a hi-fi show, although I did read that Quad's Peter Walker once got a little shirty with some over inquisitive imbecile. |
And how many Skinheads and Neo-Nazis do you believe actually exist in our country and elsewhere? I am sure if you took some time you could find an even more radical and obscure group to make your point. I assume that what many of you want is to shut down all free and open discourse. To date I would say you have been very successful with the public schools and the universities. I am done with this as so many of you simply dont understand the real dangers of what you propose.
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Have to go with audition_audio on this one. There are few Skinheads, nor Neo-Nazis. When one does not have a good argument, one may try to use an exception to prove a rule. It does not work that way. However, there is a good lesson to be learned. "Othering" and ignoring concerns, even of those you don't agree with, lends to radicalization. It is easy to label someone a racist, or Xenophobe or bigot, but just like raising concerns about "Skinheads" or other fringe elements, they may too have a concern that may not be at issue today, but could become one. I don't worry about Skinheads or Neonazis. The elements that drive them tend to be ignorance. However, I do worry about things that will "grow" within the framework of life today, i.e. what could happen from growing economic disparity, from demographics, etc. I will say one thing, censorship will always be bad, as it is and has always been a tool of oppression.
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Perhaps Audiogon has a chance at “free” speech unlike big tech?
Absolutely. Our predecessors fought many a long hard battle to overcome censorship for a certain freedom of expression and opinion. So why stand back and allow these precious rights to be taken away by those who would seek to rewrite history and to oppress, ostracise and silence all contradictory opinions? There are important questions facing us all now in this age of information. I would argue that intolerant fascism, from either end of the political spectrum, will always be an anathema to freedom. I think we all have a pretty good idea where such intolerance and smug self belief can eventually lead to, don't we? |
Absolute hogwash. You're intentionally conflating the concept of "free speech" as written in the Constitution with what can be said on a privately owned site. You don't fool anyone (with an IQ above room temperature) with your victim signaling. All the best, |
Like usual Mr. Always Right Nonoise, insult someone because this someone is out of the "party" line... Nowadays with internet the distinction inherited from some past civilization like Greece and rome between public real space (agora) and private space (home) is blurred because private and public are no more SEPARATED nor SEPARABLE in the virtual reality... One of the first consequence of censorship in tyrannical and dictatorial society is the externally imposed and conditioned self censorship related to a lost of confidence or a general defiance among neighbours... In virtual space everybody is your neighbours, then free speech in tweeter and other media must not be over regulated by an external instances nor completely controlled...Why? The muting of the ELECTED clown Donald Trump who was president by an UNELECTED corporate power decision is destruction of the souverainety of democracy or his nullification or subordination to arbitrary private corporate power... The only one who can object to that are the "wanna be leader of the opposition party " or some sleepwalking party member , because it is clear that those who control society are now unelected very powerful few corporates mammoth with few unelected technocrats...( unlected B.I.S. president, WHO. president, Bill Gates etc ) and not only leader of countries...Most country in the world command less power than only one big corporation...Any african country for example is at the mercy of this new imperial power...Gates can decide for example in which african country he will pick his lab rats for a new vaccine... At worst he may have some trouble with India who inherited British law and own a population over a billion... Anyway... It is the reason why these political left/right division whose debate are now wars insatead of debates in the US had less and less meaning save for gullible people or fanatics...And it is the same power behind these wrestling puppets: money and greed..,. The Constitution was written at a times where public space were not privately controlled and regulated at the scale where it is now... The distinction of the private home space of a citizen and the public agora where the public affair where discussed in ancient Greece , this clear distinction did not exist in virtual space ... Then free speech must be maximized in a civilized manner in virtual space and externally imposed self censorship must me minimized.. If not, the reverse dynamic will go hand in hand with this "marvellous" totalitarian global state where surveillance is "under the skin" of everyone was claimed and applaud to by the like of Yuval Noah Hariri and Klaus Schwab, the unlected Gurus of Trudeau for example and of Macron and many others around the globe... |
These days, both sides of the aisle are advocating censorship. It’s one thing to get it from one side, but now we’re getting from both sides. This is a disturbing trend, to say the least. I consider it quite fair that someone, in light of these trends, would be alarmed to see people willingly and eagerly advocating censorship, regardless of the venue and their policies. It’s one thing for the managers of a venue to implement restrictions on their patrons’ behavior, but it’s another thing to see the venue’s patrons REQUESTING a loss of freedom. It seems self-defeating, masochistic…I dunno…stupid? “I couldn’t help but notice there’s not enough censorship here, Mr. Director, may we please have some more?” I will challenge this kind of thinking regardless of the venue, because I think it is bad and indicative of an accepted mode of thinking in our population that is more than complicit in the erosion of our freedoms. |
And you are conflating a legal definition with a philosophical concept. There is nothing legally wrong with most cancel culture. Does that make it right? |
Exactly so...Thanks... What is legal (private control) is not necesarily legitimate... And the foundation of democracy is precisely which make possible to separate what is legitimate from what is legal, it is impossible to do this in a "legal" self legitimizing totalitarian system by definition... When the censorship is universal, the censorship is INTERNALIZED and become an automatic self censorship, and the citizen become robots...It is the matter in Huxley and Orwell prophetical books,,, Like said Klaus Schwab with the applauds of Harari "you will own nothing and you will be happy"... Many american citizen hypnotized by this left/right propaganda are now unable to think...They self destruct destroying the world with them.... They accuse others and there exist no mirror on their planet...
«It is way simple, all white sheep hate black sheep»-Groucho Marx🤓 |
It's really simple. Everyone on this site can post whatever they want. That doesn't mean the Owners of the site will allow it to remain. I have had posts removed for whatever reasons and while it might initially annoy me, it isn't my site. Depending upon the country where you reside, you might also have the right of free speech. In the US you are absolutely allowed to say whatever you want (except "fire" in a theater), you just have to live the consequences or repercussions of what you said. You might have the right to free speech, but that doesn't mean you won't suffer for it. |
This argument has been around since the beginning of time. We kind of got it right when it was decided that government has no role in censorship, which is what "free speech" is all about. Everything else is just whining, crying and bitching about what can be said on a private site. As for cancel culture, that's just the meme of the month and makes for clicks and eyeballs and is one of the stupidest memes ever. If one is really intent on getting out their message, go to nearest public square, stand on your soapbox and let loose. There is nothing legally wrong with stating vile, ugly, insulting and dangerous rhetoric. Does that make it acceptable? The law says no when it crosses the threshold into stochastic terrorism. All the best, |
For sure you are right...To this date here my problem is more with the members behaviour than with the moderators...Some members insults and act like a mob, want to ban people etc... this is the problem here.... And some fanatic want to import the way of Tweeter here and increase the control... This is the problem.... But remember that this private site is part of society and i dont want this site to imitate tweeter bannishing citizen Trump and bannishing here arbitrarily... |
We cannot decide by LAW the way we must spoke to people...Who will decide? From which community? Education is the key not law... "Stochastic terrorism " will increase in all society which increase his communautarism division over the citizen status or beside it...When the notion of citizen become less and less meaningful, violence increase in a society... Each community of any kind has his tabu matters and disctinctions... if all kind of community impose them by law it is chaos... The only way to decrease "stochastic terrorism" is to increase citizenship education and establishing the laical INDIVIDUAL citizen right over any cultural line of division... censorship is the opposite ...In canada censorship Trudeau want to include by law even the way we MUST adress to someone... Trudeau is already a robot... Like said Davis here, we must talk one another like friend and citizen, not as muslim first or black people first or trans sexual first etc For example it is not acceptable to say some words to someone else, Davis does not ask for a law to solve the problem, he ask for communication and education AS CITIZEN...Nevermind all other distinctions which are secondary...Freedom is for INDIVIDUAL citizen,not for any other groups of any kind, groups are not free and never will be, individual only can be free by definition... Militant communautarism, gettho-isation, become destructive without this citizenship education OVER it ...
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I generally find that people who constantly say there is no difference is not so much that they cannot hear the difference as they don't want to spend any money. Yet they want to believe that there system is better than yours because that makes them feel like big man on campus. That is my opinion. That being said the most expensive system is not necessarily the best system either. On a personal level I think we are all trying to paint a picture and the style of our painting might be different but that doesn't mean that one is wrong and one is right. For example are Picasso s painting good and Monet s not? Or vise versa? Great can be different keep that in mind but paint by Numbers is just that! |
.. and if people are going to adduce scientific support for why a $10k power cable is worth the money, the explanation should very clear, accurate, and unmystical. The products benefit’s s/b be scientifically confirmable with double-blind testing. You should not quote scientific theory and yet deny scientific method. |
A lot of what this guy has to say could be applied to audiophile factionalism and splintering. https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2022/05/social-media-democracy-trust-babel/629369/ |
@twoleftears while I don't agree with the interpretations of the story of Babel, I think the underlying issue is tribalism. The ops post is about tribalism. He would rather people adhere to a tribalist view of a a piece of the world (audio) as opposed to them expressing healthy skepticism. Ultimately I think that is what the Atlantic article is about. Both political sides are expected to accept a tribalistic view to all matters and not question the tribal point of view. The op wants to do the same thing with audio. That's not healthy. |
If people are unable to understand simple matter like the necessary correlation between subjective impressions and objective measured numbers not only in electronic design but in acoustic experience, if people are so tribal to ask for censorship of the other political side for security reason, i am a bit sad and pessimist about right now the newly proposed horrible international law fby those who want to place in the hand of unelected WHO the power control on earth in case of a pandemy; then after the erasing of doctors freedom WHO proposed the erasing of nation sovereignty ...No freedom for the sake of a false security impression...
Guess who is the big contributor in money to the WHO ? If you dont know you are lost forever... if you dont mind you are more than lost... 😁😊This is not a conspiracy at all this isin the light for all to see... This is only the trend of corporate power lobbys...There is no more any conspiracies, all is in the open... I am sad but not bored, because each day is more amazing than the last...
Freedom is the only great discovery for the last million years with language, they emerge together through play, and hunting synchronized play by men and children synchronized play by music with women... Perhaps i dont have the right to distinguish the sexes here no more ? 😁😊 Some anthropologist school just demonstrate how language came from more social freedom in first human hunter gatherers society like the pygmies today, by the play instinct and his extension in the symbolic kingdom by the virtue of a matriarchal impulse toward more freedom in the group and a general higher level of trust linked to play and music, guiding all the tribe to a more successful synchronized way to hunt with no stress, the opposite of primate society ... Interesting hypothesis about language origin....My favorite one... my best to all .......
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Nowhere in what I said did I mention "party" line. It is you who are injecting politics into this, not me. I've pointed that out to you repeatedly and yet you persist in lying. You're becoming quite the horses's ass, aren't you? That, and you're revealing a rather dark side of yourself that you're continually apologizing for when others correct or challenge you. Then you pretend to agree with them and go off topic, as usual, hoping they forget what you said. As for your insipid takedown of stochastic terrorism, it's nothing more than pseudo idealistic gobbledegook; random phrases and quotes like one would get out of a word/phrase generator run by AI. All the best,
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