OP… @bruce19
Thanks for your comment. Really interesting question.
You know, at this point in the evolution of technology there is not a solution.
Originally, when I got into this I was a practicing scientist, and quickly I realized there were too many variables to even begin to solve this as a scientific problem… to optimize some stuff and provide an answer. You have to listen. Which, by the way is what science is all about… first observe… this is the foundation. Human hearing is truely amazing and values are highly varied and change over time.
I am fascinated with the pursuit because of a real attraction to music… but remained glued to it because of the positive feedback I received by my decisions that provided improvements in sound quality. I am fascinated by really complex and ambiguous problems… my career follows highly ambiguous complex stuff.
I remember driving at 60 mph across the Black Rock Desert a couple decades before Burning Man rocking out with the highest end Sony Walkman and high end headphones… returning to my motel room in the middle of Nevada (Winnemucca… love the town) and getting immersed in Miles Davis with my 100 wpc stereo with speakers 8 feet apart and incredible imaging. Or hanging my head out the window in Atsugi Japan listening to the best headphone system imaginable (CD player, huge portable head amp) listening to ERA. The rewards, from such effort and commitment unraveling such a complicated problem.
‘Some day I suspect technology will mature and you will buy something that can provide any sound you like. But I don’t think we are close. Fifty year? One hundred? I guess it will happen. But for now… we have to work for what we get. Some folks like the challenge, most think it is a waste of time.
|
@holmz nothing wrong with a stout power cable to accompany a stout power supply.
Correct @jerryg123 - but the question is ”does anything become more right with a stout cable?”
In terms of front end gear we have nothing shown so far to suggest that it is “more right” to run a different cable.
Going from a 16ga to a 10ga on an amp seems more right. But iut would be nice to see it.
Nor is there anything wrong with a interconnect and speaker cables built to a higher standard than lamp cord.
Also true.
We have measurement specs for ICs, and also for some speaker cables.
I am not sure from the OPs post whether they are talking about power cables, speaker cables, or ICs.
The speaker cables and ICs have more of an impact than a power cord, and especially on equipment that is running a centralised power supply.
|
“our hobby occasionally is criticized for being elitist and snobby and that is also something worth thinking about.”
@bruce19
I had a feeling that you would misconstrued my response. I wasn’t trying to show off but make a subtle point to pick gear not based on that nice ‘freebie’ included with a component that the manufacturer deemed fit to ‘up’ his odds to sell the gear.
I hate to make assumptions but you seem to lobby for guys who are,
1) Too lazy to take the time to compare power cords,
2) Too cheap to pony up money for a decent power cord
If you are serious about seeking help with cable selection, just list your system & budget, Agon community will be more than happy to provide guidance.
|
there are a lot of cable deniers here.
I disagree. Just a few (in the true sense of definition). But very, very vocal. As usual
|
@holmz nothing wrong with a stout power cable to accompany a stout power supply. Nor is there anything wrong with a interconnect and speaker cables built to a higher standard than lamp cord. @thyname there are a lot of cable deniers here.
|
“Cable denier “ is a term attached to people who declare (and for some reason pollute all audio forums) cables do NOT matter without even trying them. I hope this helps. Best regards
But “Cable denier” is a term applied by cable believers. And in a degrading fashion.
It is really the responsibility of the person spruicking this stuff to prove it makes any difference, and not devolve into some “emperors new clothes” arguement. I mean we do have measurement equipment to show that a power supply supplies power, and at a constant voltage.
In a rational world we would have evidence that some cable helps, or does not help.
And then if it helps, does it help systems A and B, but not systems C and D?
I can imagine that some cables could help some systems, but systems that are designed with good power supplies would not likely need a multi thousand dollar cable.
|
|
Which Cardas or Kimber cables did you try Sherlock Holmes that did not make any difference? And on what?
@thyname
My dear @Watson)
The tone of your post makes it look like you are invested in the idea of power cables, and I trust the manufacturers to make their power supplies robust enough not to require special power cables.
I have not tried either of those power cables on the Nagra front end gear, nor on the Audible Illusions Modulus preamp.
If I found one to try I would be open to that, but I am pretty happy with the sound.
And in reality there is no way that the power cord is going to make it sing. If I was going to piss away that kind of money, I would be more likely to just go for the Nagra battery pack and not run any power cord into the Nagra gear.
The power supply supplies 12V, so unless I can see some smoother 12V, I am not likely to be swayed by well crafted creative writing.
But I would be open to trying it if it were readily available.
I would be even more likely to try these things if they showed the power supply voltage being more stable with their special cable than without it. But without some evidence, it devolves into the world of prose.
|
“Cable denier “ is a term attached to people who declare (and for some reason pollute all audio forums) cables do NOT matter without even trying them. I hope this helps. Best regards
|
If I may @ghdprentice you commented earlier on that this problem had occurred to you as well. You have spent a lot more time and money than me in the pursuit of sonic excellence and I think you said in another thread that you had been in the tech industry. Given your experience, doesn't it seem to you there could be a better way to help people shop for cables than our current situation? It is very daunting to any newcomer or even those more experienced but time and budget limited. Industry pundits bemoan the lack of new blood entering hi-fi. Certainly the cable market is a part of the impediments to feeling like you know what you are doing.
@lalitk and @soix Perfectly fine to disagree, honestly. I don't think anybody would force you to buy cables you don't want and I don't think this thread was aimed at those with your extensive knowledge of the subject. It is for people like me who struggle with the whole cable thing and would like some help or who want to make the system better. However, our hobby occasionally is criticized for being elitist and snobby and that is also something worth thinking about.
And lastly, "Cable denier" is an interesting term @thyname , I assume you weren't referring to me because I indicated earlier I am agnostic at this point. I would accept the label of "cable rationalist" however because I would dearly like a reasoned way to find the best most affordable cables for my systems without having to bump around at random wasting time and money.
|
1) AQUA includes a decent power cable with Hubbell style terminations.
2) The dealer channel would prefer manufacturers not include upmarket power cords as that is a significant profit center for the dealer.
|
Which Cardas or Kimber cables did you try Sherlock Holmes that did not make any difference? And on what?
|
@holmz
I was talking about the components not the cord!
Well others are mentioning power cords.
My old gear had a detached power supply, and my newer (old gear) also has a detached power supply… so maybe it was designed not to need an ex[enive power cable?
I use mostly Mogami and Neutrik ends for DIY ICs, but I am also trying some silver IC cable and ETI ends.
Mogami (and Cardas, etc.) do at least publish the capacitance and inductance specs of the raw IC cable, as well as their speaker cable. Kimber also publishes those specs. The ones that do not publish those specs, I assume have no real R&D, nor the equipment to measure things… And they also fall mostly into what I call “the creative writing group.”
I would like to hear the difference, but I really have a hard time convincing myself that one low capacitance and low inductance cable sounds different than another.
When I basically cannot tell them apart, I conclude it is because they mostly make no difference.
|
I completely disagree with ‘deserve your attention’ notion. When I am shopping for electronics, I am considering its features, design, implementation and how it’s going to sound in my system. I didn’t buy my $25K EMM Labs DAC because they included $200 Kimber Power Cable which I did not care to use, instead I used a $5K PC.
@lalitk Bingo! A perfect example and case in point.
|
This is definitely “argument” #1 cable deniers make. The truth is pretty simple: why would a manufacturer add to the cost of their gear by including a good / pricey power cord, when the user will use their own preferred power cable anyways. A basic power is included for convenience purposes.
Besides:
1) Some manufacturers do not even include a power cord
2) Some manufacturers do in fact include sufficiently good / solid power cords, not the usual $2 junk. Example: my T+A PA 3100 HV does come with a decent 20A power cord. I often use it when I am in between cables, and it sounds sufficiently good.
|
“I hope you feel as I do that manufacturers who are affirmatively addressing this issue deserve your attention.”
I completely disagree with ‘deserve your attention’ notion. When I am shopping for electronics, I am considering its features, design, implementation and how it’s going to sound in my system. I didn’t buy my $25K EMM Labs DAC because they included $200 Kimber Power Cable which I did not care to use, instead I used a $5K PC.
|
tump350,
you should try OCC single Crystal copper which is even better than pure copper because there's no Crystal barriers in the wire at all, pure copper is not the same as OCC single Crystal it can still be ofc wire which is very inferior to OCC single Crystal.
|
I am happy if the manufacture provides a power cord at all. I wow at a dvd that comes with those red, white and yellow cables and batteries for the remote!
However, I feel High End products should NOT come with any cables at all. Many manufactures Recommends them. Spectral Audio twists your arm for one speaker cable brand. Power, interconnect and speaker cables should be left to the customer for the fine tweak. An audiophile who has experienced the benefits, already has a few of their choice.
Consider: What if the cord or cable the manufacture recommends (sounding the best) cost of $20,000, includes it with the product and passes the cost onto the customer? This tread would be "Should the manufacture force a power cable onto the customer?"
|
Pearl Acoustics makes Sibelius cables specifically for their well regarded Sibelius SG and CG speakers. The cables are said to be developed together with the speakers. See https://pearlacoustics.com/sibelius-cables/
|
@roxy54 i’m not sure which statement you are referring to.
|
Raven Audio includes their well made power cords with their amps.
|
@bruce19,
That is a ridiculous idea. How could they possibly make a statement like that about something that is a subjective preference?
|
Better cables do not produce better sound. Start over.
|
Schitt knows a majority of Schiit owners buy for cost first and many also believe in the "snake oil" mantra.
|
Schiit says you can buy an expensive pc for there preamp but it wont make a difference. They shouldn't make statements as such. Do you think they have actually tried to compare there gear using different pc's.
|
@chocaholic and @jasonbourne52 You both raise good points that make me think we should also include manufacturers on this list who affirmatively state that there will be no significant improvement in the performance of their product with anything beyond the stock power cord or interconnects they supply.
|
PS Audio recommends specific Audioquest cables and cords for their various products. But PS does not design manufacture and sell their own aftermarket cables and cords. They have not for many years now
|
It feels like we are gathering momentum here! Thanks for all the contributions. Here is a summary of what has been shared so far, just so future readers don't have to pick through the entire thread. I will do this periodically as a service. I hope you feel as I do that manufacturers who are affirmatively addressing this issue deserve your attention.
Audio manufacturers who include or recommend high end cables with their equipment
Burmester
Audio Note
PS Audio. They recommend AudioQuest but they also offer their own regenerators, power cords
Krell
Schiit
Musical Fidelity
Merrill Audio
Naim
Classe provides a pretty good cable from DR Acoustics with the delta amplifiers
Luxman, like the others mentioned, has their own interconnects as well.
Pass Labs regularly uses Silent Source cables and cords (fairly expensive) for their audio show demo rooms....(they do include a nice quality generic cord with their equipment).
AGD supplies high quality power cords with their amps. Don't know about their other products.
Rogers High Fidelity in North Adams, MA offers a house made high quality power cord for their amps.
|
The answer to your question is that most people in our opinion prefer their own power cords, ICs, tubes, etc., so why bother. Plus most people are buying components that are not reference level so to us it would be a waste of time. Buying better components has a greater sound improvement that cables, etc.
Happy Listening.
|
Rogers High Fidelity in North Adams, MA offers a house made high quality power cord for their amps. I use it with their EFH 200 Mark II integrated w/.excellent results.
|
AGD supplies high quality power cords with their amps. Don't know about their other products.
|
Tangentially, saw an interview with Nelson Pass, where he said Ray Kimber loaned him some speaker cables to try...he said they sounded great, but when he found out they were $54.000 a pair...
|
Though Pass Labs regularly uses Silent Source cables and cords (fairly expensive) for their audio show demo rooms....(they do include a nice quality generic cord with their equipment)...
|
Go ask Nelson Pass. We can hold a seance and ask the spirit of Sidney Smith (designed the classic Marantz tube gear of the Fifties) what he thinks about power cords. Ditto for Stewart Hegeman (designer of the classic HK Citation tube gear). I am sure these esteemed gentlemen would be appalled at the state of boutique wire today! To them a kettle cord was all that was required for their products! I would agree with them! After all, the power supply is where it all starts - not with the wire to the AC outlet!
|
Agree with @curiousjim about PS Audio. They recommend AudioQuest but they also offer their own regenerators, power cords and power conditioners. Luxman, like the others mentioned, has their own interconnects as well.
|
Classe provides a pretty good cable from DR Acoustics with the delta amplifiers
|
As a life long skeptic…manufacturers carefully select components and wiring to optimize the performance of their devices…and advertise as such. Considering the margins involved and just how competitive their markets are, if they felt their device would perform appreciably better vs the competition with a certain power cord rather than the generic one they include, than they would include it and bake it into the price.
The high end is not about pinching pennies. Whether an amp is $22k or $23.5k would make little difference in sales volume if the $23.5k version clearly outperformed their competitors thanks to be paired with the perfect power cord. So, it would be my contention that if the power cord made the device sound better, it would be in the box. Just my opinion, of course.
|
+1 @mrskeptic
Oh but they spent over 1000 dollars on that power cord so it must've improved the sound of their amplifier. Yeah....
|
Naim Audio offers both optional power cord upgrades, as well as interconnect upgrades.
|
What's this "consensus" I keep reading about? Maybe here, but there are many, many other people who know think that power cables produce no difference in the sound of your audio system.
There, I fixed that for you.
All the best,
Nonoise
|
Why? Also, in the OP’s way of thinking, why stop at power cords? How about the interconnects, speaker, usb, Ethernet, and any other type of cable that might be connected to this device? Now you see the problem. Any of these cables can have a small to large impact on the sq of the system, so let the buyer decide with their own ears what sounds best
|
What's this "consensus" I keep reading about? Maybe here, but there are many, many other people who know that power cables produce no difference in the sound of your audio system.
|
@roxy54 I know. You are correct, some provide more than others but as was said in another thread it is the wild west. I don't even have language to intelligently discuss cables because there seems to be no agreed upon language to describe what matters and what not. I am agnostic about cables. I buy them but I can't say with certainty what any individual cable has added or detracted from my systems. I have thought I have heard improvements but then on another day I may feel otherwise. The reason is it takes a long time to switch a cable and the changes, if any are subtle. Can't speak for others but my aural memory is just not that strong. I can hear differences in components but cables generally elude me. I bet I am not the only one who could say this if we were honest. This is further aggravated by my own tendency for confirmation bias. When something costs a lot that knowledge affects me, sometimes in favor of the item and sometimes against it. Have not figured out how to do blind testing on myself.
I have learned a lot about hi-fi in the past 5 years since I retired and am pretty satisfied I have at least a fair notion of what is going on in most areas, bought a lot of stuff, built some amps, built some speakers, etc. but cables are like trying to study alchemy.
And I bet I am not alone.
|
@bruce19
Well, now you're starting in on a whole different subject, and what you're saying here is not wholly true either. Many manufacturers go into considerable detail about the construction of their power cords, and their reasons for making them the way they do. Whether we choose to believe what they say, or whether those techniques and materials actually make a difference is for the end user to decide.
Again, this is a different subject than asking why component manufacturers don't include fancy power cords of their own manufacture.
|
You know, I think I would fully agree with you @roxy54 if most of the cables we are talking about cost less than $50 and very few more than $100 AND if we spoke of them mainly in terms of the materials, designs and workmanship employed. In other words if they were treated like normal wires. However we are talking about products that can cost as much or more than everything else in a system. These products are also treated as proprietary black box systems that reveal as little as possible about how they are made and what they are made of and what distinguishes one product from another, except for very general and vague market speak. They publish no test results, little or nothing about their physical make-up and often no rationale why we should even expect them to work.
We all know how much time and effort we put into researching and comparing products in the rest of our system. Many of us like to get under the hood and,usually, quality shows there as well as in the music made. Reviewers do the same for us, often including objective testing along with subjective impressions. Why do we tolerate less from cable manufacturers? Why excuse this category of product for making us play blind man's bluff? For these reasons I do not consider cable shopping part of the fun and am calling on equipment manufacturers to help us poor consumers make sense of all this. I believe they have the knowledge to do so and that the market would reward them for behaving like a no-nonsense square shooter. I like companies like that and bet you do too.
|
|
Paul McGowan of PS Audio loves the Audioquest top of the line power cords, but he Realizes that people have different tastes, so he doesn’t put them in with their equipment. At least that’s what he says.
|
no more than theyre in the best position to design the best transistors, fets, tubes, interconnects, feet, jacks, knobs...
|
It’s also tricky to recommend cables and cords and not alienate your dealers that don’t carry that brand
|
Great and valid answers above. Merrill Audio provided Cardas PC’s and IC’s with the Thor monoblocks I purchased. Even though these cords were branded Merrill Audio, they were Cardas cables. I used them with great sucess with the Thors. I still use the PCs with the Merrill Veritas monoblocs I have now. I upgraded to Cardas Golden Reference XLRs for the Veritas monblocs. Mostly for length, but stayed with the type of cable selected by Merrill. I believe Merrill recomended very high quality pure copper IC’s to maximize the very detailed, but realistic microdynamics these monoblocs produce.
|
