Why I'm not adding a sub to my 2-way monitors for music

@rauliruegas 

JL really IS too expensive, it also has some of the best room integration software out there, so it's a mixed bag.  I mean, I'm too cheap, but room integration software matters and if the cost was the same I'd trade distortion for proper integration.

@erik_squires,

Yes, I was kind of hoping that I could find one like Nano in the used market but no luck with it. Good news is that MiniDSP just announces (3 days ago) they are going to release MiniDSP Flex/digit which is basically a stripped down of SHD (without streamer) for sub $500 and allows you to process up to four channels with digital out. Still expensive relative to Nano but much cheaper than SHD.

Dear @hshifi  : I understand your need too and I know very well the well regarded JL and Rel subs that hmore marketing that realities. What am I saying with realities?, example the JL THD is over 5% against the 0.5% in the Velodyne and Rel is not way better than JL in that very critical regards. So you have land down there to improve MUSIC and HT enjoyment the better.

R.

Dear @erik_squires  : I understand your point. Now the side advantage of subs is not only to go deeper in the bass range but with a better quality levels. Anyway your needs do to that 5.1 makes the subs a hard call but I think you will solve it.

R.

Hello,

I use two of the  JL Audio F110 subs with the JL Audio CR1 crossover. My speakers are rated down to 25hz at -3db.  I am one of those goofballs who use their two channel system as part of the surround system. Both my two channel system and the CR1 crossover have home theater bypass so I can use the JL Audio subs with both systems. In my room which is 24’x13.8’x8’. I have two REL T9 subs which I will add later. I mostly listen to 2 channel split between tt and my DAC. It all sounds really, really good. I have found that the subs make everything sound more real because bass adds dimension and space because it enhances or lets you realize time. I sometimes like to listen at low volume. By adding the subs it lets me get great dynamic range. I know subs are heavy and you don’t want to pay shipping to try them out. If you live in the Chicagoland area this store lets you try before you buy. 
holmaudio.com

This is a great way to see if subs can make a difference. I know everyone has their preferences. By demoing in your home you can make up

your own mind. I hope this helps. 

@rauliruegas

You are absolutely correct. More cone excursion = more IM distortion and more Doppler effects. Taking that demand from the main amp and main speakers is a really wonderful thing.

I do think my system would sound better with a subwoofer for music, I just got it to sound so good already I wasn't willing to add the subwoofer.  In my case it's a complex undertaking because of the way my 5.1 and music systems are merged together I had a choice of using the sub for movies or music and movies won.

I will probably still attempt this later this year. :)

Dear @erik_squires : I’m not against what you already achieved because at the end is what you like and what you think.

I added subs to my really full range speakers for one main reason that name is: lower IMD. My ADS per sé goes down to 16hz but you have to pay a very high price for that: high IMD.

You have a 2-way speaker designs and this could means that you crossover 2.5khz to 3.5khz ( more or less ) from the woofer to the tweeter.

In any two way speaker design the IMD is rally high and this is the reason why you in reality need a pair of subs: to lower dramatically the IMD and when you do that the " ligth " comes out and your room/system will shines as ever before and as a side advantage is that now you can go deeper and with better quality performance in your bass range that’s where the MUSIC foundation lives and obviously that the electronics of your main speakers will works with out any kind of distress and with higher headroom and you don't need to measure anything because the best " measure " to that IMD are the IMD comparison you make trhough listening tests before and after. You can tame the IMD but you can't disappeared by room treatment or any other way because the IMD is developed by the speaker 2-way woofer.

Imagine your today IMD levels in your speakers when the movements on the woofer reproducing 35hz-40hz at the same time needs to reproduce frequency range above to at least 1khz ! ! ? ? ?

Tha’s my take for subs In any passive speakers.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,

R.

@nymarty

Paradigm DSP 3100. And hey -- glad there's another NOLA Boxer user out there!

• @millercarbon

You are hilarious. You completely ignore the specific claim of you pushing DBA like a cult (only we can fix it) and jump into something that was not about you, and allegorical.

You are very selective in your outrage.

@edcyn  what sub are you using with your Nola Boxers?  I’m looking to buy a sub for mine and curious about your setup.  I’ve been looking at smaller sub like SVS SB3000 and REL t7x.  As to OP post, I think it’s great that he was able to tune his room to the point where he doesn’t feel he needs the sub.  That clearly took some effort and gave me some pointers on what I can do in my room to improve it.  Thanks, OP.

if you are adding a sub, you are adding a tone control. That’s just facts. You are already outside of the pure, well disciplined land of hifi purity and the goddess of music and all things holy will no longer show you her face. We are already damned.

People accuse me of all kinds of over the top exaggeration and insult, but I've never even come close to vilifying anything as unholy and damned. G-d Eric the stuff you get away with. Tsushima and his little crew of familiars would be all over me in a nanosecond if I said you are impure and damned to hell for your choice of speaker. Can't fathom even a shred of it but I must admit, you got your act down son. That you do.

You go, girl.

Hey @ozzy62  Thanks for being the only person who missed me. :)  I have learned with discussions like this that they come to more satisfying endings if A'goners contribute and have their say instead of me trying to reply to every post.

@hilde45 - Thanks for your eloquent synopsis of my work regarding subwoofers and music lovers.  It's true, in my mind, that getting a subwoofer is like getting a dog.  There's a lot to consider about it's food, mental happiness, exercise, etc. before committing to one, and yet dogs are wonderful.  Same for subs.

I have updated my posting with information about the room, and also the statement that frankly my results were surprising and not typical. 

FYI, added room data to the blog post.

Personally, I feel DSP and it’s ilk "spoils the cow’s milk". I would never think to alter the eq of what the producers in the studio intended.

I do tend to agree with the legendary Floyd tool though is that EQ in the mid and treble may spoil the entire reason you picked your speakers to begin with but if you are adding a sub, you are adding a tone control. That’s just facts. You are already outside of the pure, well disciplined land of hifi purity and the goddess of music and all things holy will no longer show you her face. We are already damned.

What EQ gives you, and DSP in particular, is the ability to control big room nodes which can add 20dB or more to the bass in narrow peaks. 20dB is 100x the power at those spots. In the example on my blog the room nodes are a lot less pronounced but when I had those issues they were awful and EQ was the difference between using a sub or not.

Having been spoiled by measurement equipment, and hearing and reading stories of audiophiles attempting to integrate a sub or speaker to a room without it, I simply cannot imagine attempting the process by ear. Life is too short.

Aw, c'mon Erik! You've been schooled by He Who Knows. LOL

Uh, @audioguy85, a statement like this indicates someone who’s never experienced a sub properly set up and hence is focusing on the wrong things.  You have no idea what you’re talking about.  Wilson Audio uses subs with their Alexandrias, which go gobs lower than your speakers could ever hope to.  What do you think you know that they don’t?  Ugh. 

Yay! A new contender for most annoying poster!

He knows full well the key to good bass is multiple bass sources, not a single sub

@millercarbon I would appreciate you not speaking for me, thank you.

Yes, from the literature DBA sounds like a fine idea. It is the number of devices and the religious zealotry which you have used to promote it, and this line is a perfect example. There are a number of solutions and DBA may be fine, but so is a good sub in a good room with proper integration can sound glorious.

DBA is by no means an exclusive solution but attempting to sell it as the one and only solution is akin to cultish methinks.

Like you have mentioned, the DSP method is another way to integrate a sub. However, the more affordable digital signal processor like MiniDSP does not have digitial OUT that allows users to connect it with the DAC

miniDSP has a number of DSP's with pure digital I/O, among them:

https://www.minidsp.com/products/minidsp-in-a-box/minidsp-4x10-hd

https://www.minidsp.com/products/dirac-series/ddrc-88d

Sadly the cheaper nano is now gone.

@pennpencil  Those symptoms are classic indicators that you have a room mode problem.  Narrow, tall peaks which certain music is hitting and preventing you from setting your subs to a more neutral position.

This is something fixable with EQ and measurement, really super easy.

Personally, I feel DSP and it's ilk "spoils the cow's milk". I would never think to alter the eq of what the producers in the studio intended

You never reproduce the intention unless your room and speakers match the mixing room. DSP no more spoils anything anymore than your Dunlavy speakers or listening room chair.

Kinda disappointing to start a thread then walk away for two days. 

Personally, I feel DSP and it's ilk "spoils the cow's milk". I would never think to alter the eq of what the producers in the studio intended. In fact, the goal for my source gear is to preserve that source as purely as possible to feed my phase and time coherent Dunlavy SM-1 monitors, which were designed to be used with a sub. An active analog crossover is key to setting up that sub properly as is room placement etc. I do like the idea of using a device like the omnimic, but only to tune the sub with analog circuits. 

I have KEF R3 bookshelf speakers. They are substantial for bookshelf speakers. After owning them a few months I decided to add a sub. I added a KEF R400B, It definitely added another dimension to the sound. Although better, I still felt like I was missing something, so I added a second R400B. It has taken a while to get it right, but the 2 subs really complimented the R3s and allow them to do what they do best and the subs take care of the rest. I don't know about all applications, but adding subs worked for me.

@soix I think @audioguy85 is referring to adding separate sub-woofers to speakers, but not to those that are already part of the speaker system. Not only Wilson, but Vandersteens Quatro have built-in sub-woofers. Those are fine. He is questioning the wisdom of adding sub-woofers by end-users which are not part of the speaker manufacturers recommendation. This is just a trial-and-error procedure hoping to get something in addition to what main speakers deliver.

Nothing against those that choose to use a sub, to each their own. To me, it is over kill and not necessary. Most music contains nothing below say 40 hz...most speakers with say a 40 hz rating actually go significantly lower when interacting with the room. Lastly, you will never get the timbre to match the 2 channel speakers. To me, you are ruining the sound of a well designed 2 channel speaker.

Uh, @audioguy85, a statement like this indicates someone who’s never experienced a sub properly set up and hence is focusing on the wrong things.  You have no idea what you’re talking about.  Wilson Audio uses subs with their Alexandrias, which go gobs lower than your speakers could ever hope to.  What do you think you know that they don’t?  Ugh. 

Due to my room and cabinet I am restricted to using bookshelf speakers with 8 inch drivers. 

Adding a sub makes a more full sound. You also muddy the midrange if you are asking your speakers to play a 50hz tone along with a 1000hz tone 

2 major improvements that have left me scratching my head

* I sold 2 SVS powered subs: purchased new 10+ years ago, never designed to compliment a hi-end system, but I thought I needed them as my room is ~ 21 x 35 x 12 (open beam ceiling) with lots of glass front and rear, plus a tile floor, when I had Magnapan 3.5Rs

Also, I had my Emerald Physics 3.4s (2 way) 12" concentric drivers with 1" polyester tweeters sitting on Harbor Freight dollys so I could maneuver them easily, but once I got rid of the subs and moved the 3.4s some 2ft back, wrangling them off the dollys, and onto one toe (OUCH), then placed 4 each loaded Nobsound springs under them, the music became amazingly life-like. My LSA Voyager 350 has a lot more lower mids and bass then I was aware of. In most rooms I doubt anyone would need more speaker than these. They can be found used for under $1000!

Adding a small sub to augment small monitors was one of my better decisions. 

@soix - Can’t agree more that when you remove the sub, then you best realize what it actually contributes to your system.

In the same time Ihad the same annoying experience like @pennpencil having to constantly turn up and down the volume of the subs depending of the album or even the track. This was one of the reasons I got finally rid of the YG Anat III Professional Signature. 
i really wonder how can a sub be not too much or too litle once and again.

I’ve always said a sub belongs in a home theater set up. I have a very nice Tannoy sub that serves this purpose. My 2 channel hifi is composed of large Tannoys that, to me, do all the bass I would ever need. I am not habitually listening to a church pipe organ. However, I must say that an organ sounds pretty darn good through my Tannoys as is. My room is adorned with normal room treatments for creature comfort. There are no specific hifi based treatments, which to me, look terrible. I spend lots of time in my living/family room, so it must be pleasing to the eye. I have said often, soft furnishings mixed with hard, ie coffee table/end table, sectional couch, a plush chair or two, pillows, throws, even a wall tapestry. All these things, tastefully chosen and carefully placed, will accomplish the task of treating a room. Add or omit what is needed with commonly available house furnishings. I am pleased with the sound I achieved overall. Could it be a bit better? Maybe....I do not live in a mansion, so I will never have a dedicated room. So what I have is a nice compromise to keep all happy.

Nothing against those that choose to use a sub, to each their own. To me, it is over kill and not necessary. Most music contains nothing below say 40 hz...most speakers with say a 40 hz rating actually go significantly lower when interacting with the room. Lastly, you will never get the timbre to match the 2 channel speakers. To me, you are ruining the sound of a well designed 2 channel speaker. 

If there was a chair a slight breeze and good sound Erik would be happy. I would be happy IF I had the same sound and a room FULL of goodies.

I think everyone wants good sound without looking like a NASA simulation, BUT there are those that do like that look..  I'm in between the two actually. A pole dead center of the speakers is just fine. "She can leave her hat ON" The pole is staying too.

Regards

Its either the red or blue pill.

the choice is up to the individual .

i just think many times that members like to stir the bees nest to see what they can shake up.....and this would be one of these times.

if one wants to believe what he says as the way to go, then so be it.....but there are many here that feel adding subs makes a big difference.

Erik, interesting post.  Always appreciate your perspective.  I find, for me and my system, that multiple subs create a significantly improved soundstage versus no subs, especially, at lower volumes.  

I went with what my friend brought over to my house 20 yrs ago. I put 2-10" subs in between my mains. The Marchand crossover boards say 1985 on them. I sent into Phil(very nice person) a couple years ago and it was fine but he put some nicer opamps in since I sent it in. Charged me $150. I spent a whopping $400 for the setup originally, might have been a little extra for the crossover. I am lucky, people do things without labor just parts. Otherwise to buy all this new would now be a couple thousand. I know, some say it is just midfi crap. They still sit in the same place. I was really proud of myself. I could shake the entire house. Then...I got it right. Now the bass is not boomy and loud upstairs, yet is deep and rich at my listening position. Walking around the room and it doesn’t sound peak or null anywhere I can hear. Somehow, I can keep most of the bass in the room now. My wife sure isn’t complaining. Bear in mind these are only "good" to 30 Hz. There is some 20Hz output but that is not what the port is tuned to. I’m fine with that because as i said buying bigger and newer will cost quite a bit.

I have 15" woofers in my mains. I have listened to them without subs. They go down to about 35 Hz. The sound is good, but the subs just fill in a little more.

I could use a couple corner bass traps but I am not far off without them.  My friend passed away, no local audio groups, no dealers, so it has just been blind luck and lots of reading.

I have debated about restoring this Yamaha P2700. It just cruises with the subs. It is 30 yrs old now but haven’t located someone who could do this for a reasonable price. So far, I have been able to put my money into everything else.

I've re-read the OP and the two articles directly relevant; the one mentioned in the OP and the one before it, "How not to buy a subwoofer."

Erik makes it pretty clear this is mainly about his process and how he came to his conclusions. A bunch of posts here are manning the ramparts to go against the claim that "no one should ever have a sub, their personal freedom be damned." I know folks need a cause to fight for, but...

Re: the DBA, Erik discussed it and didn't dismiss it, here: https://speakermakersjourney.blogspot.com/2020/04/how-to-not-buy-subwoofer.html

While I was a fan of this [DBA] idea due to the innovation and possibilities it offered I never really warmed to it due to the physical complexity.  For me, I want my system simpler, smaller, and tripling the number of speakers in my home has no appeal at all.

So, as I take this in, I see Erik making the point that if one wants to avoid the complexity of the DBA, one needs to be careful about whether a sub is genuinely needed, and how to assess that complicated question. He's not taking the work off of anyone's shoulder's; rather, he's making the unpopular point that making a correct judgement about this requires work and he's aiming to assist any audiophile not content to just buy more stuff.

if one chooses not to add a sub to their system because to them it sounds good, then so be it.....but that doesnt mean that this is going to work for another member and their system.

if you are happy with the way things sound in your system, then fine, but it sounds like you are totally against adding one and trying to persuade others not to use one as well.

There was a topic recently asking if audiophiles are on a different planet. I don't know about that, but this is one of those times it sure seems like they are. Erik has been around long enough to know about DBA, to have read all the extensive research on the subject, and to have seen that everyone who tries it gets the same outstanding results. He knows full well the key to good bass is multiple bass sources, not a single sub. This has been explained, demonstrated, and proven, time and again. Yet here we are pretending none of this ever happened.

Lalalalalala I don't hear you lalalalalala that is the whole message. Different planet. Here on Earth everyone but everyone will experience better bass with a DBA. The only question being: Is that what you want? Or would you rather go on pretending?

Having just added a second sub this week in part because of the rel sale, I would add to this discussion that with the good also comes a little bad. The second sub rel s/510 added richness to the sound and much deeper sound stage. The only new problem that emerged with this improved SQ is volume. While working I was listening to the streaming service I use on my $150 2.1 computer speakers and noticed that all levels were homogenized—meaning there was about the same levels of bass and treble and so forth. Playing the same playlist on my system I found myself wanting to adjust the sub level pretty often. On one song there’d be too much bass so I’d turn the sub volume down. On another song there was too little, so I’d turn up the volume, until finally I had to put the volume at some compromised position. The sub is magical and musical but I sure wish it had a remote.

I helped my,neighbor, he has and did purchase on my recommendation a pair of large bookshelves (Dynaudio) c-1? Maybe, and a small Polk sub for the lows, his small modest bookshelves w the,small Polk sub, does sound very good, allows him to hit the volume a bit,more with the subs soaking yp the,low freq. 

....a SHD Studio to some may be a pittance, compared to some cable commitments, but that's me being a tad snide.  But a digital crossover can allow sidestepping the major issues of integration....

Personally, I've always wanted a 'test record/CD' that I could 'sample & hold' at any point in play  Helps to focus on the details.. 

"Bots' ya got?"

Audiophiles who do this do one of two things. They buy a sub and set it to have as low a cut off frequency as possible, which is a HUGE waste, or try to blend them in without high passing the mains. In neither case the results are mediocre to non existent.

I'm with Ozzy. Gotta have octave zero which even the full-range towers can't play anywhere near flat.

With a modicum of subwoofer positioning & some twisting of the dials on the back of the Paradigm sub, I used one of my fistful of test CDs (was it one of the Stereophile ones?) to achieve flat, eminently musical bass response in my listening room with my Nola Boxers down to 40 hz. From there, response steadily goes down until disappearing at just under 30 hz. All by ear, and good enough for me.

@erik_squires, I personally appreciate the benefit of integrating a sub into a restricted low-freq. system, IF the sub can be seamlessly integrated. As most of you knew, the sub is not only filling the low end but could also augmenting soundstange, dynamic range, etc. When listening at low volume, the sub also fill in the low end atmosphere just like the "loudness" button.

Nevertheless, integration of sub is not an easy task. I completely agree with you that high-pass filter (HPF) is almost a must after experimenting one of the few subs that includes such a function, i.e., SVS SB 1000/2000. The HPF in SVS SB is fixed at 80Hz just as mentioned in your article. I am not sure why SVS abandons that in the pro model and higher grade sub. With HPF, the headroom in both main speakers and subs becomes bigger and enables them to handle the notes with more authority. The integration is much better than other methods of connection, such as high level, line level, LFE, or from speaker level to line level through a line-out converter/attenuator. I just wish the amp in SB 1000/2000 could allow users to adjust the Q setting or the HPF frequencies at least has more preset frequencies bet. 60 Hz to 100 Hz like in Emotiva.

Like you have mentioned, the DSP method is another way to integrate a sub. However, the more affordable digital signal processor like MiniDSP does not have digitial OUT that allows users to connect it with the DAC. I am not confident the quality internal DAC in MiniDSP. If placing the DAC before MiniDSP, the MiniDSP will need to perform A-D-A conversion internally and potentially mess up the quality of digitial/analogue signals. To be completely digital, one need to upgrade the DSP to SHD Studio which is sort of cost prohibitive around $1k. I am not sure if you have the exposure to DSP and could share your experience/advise.

"I guess you’re not listening to Alan Walker at concert level..;)"

Nah, I'm more of a Skrillex kinda guy.  

Musically the important thing when adding a sub to a system is that a high pass is used on the main speakers. Then as stated distortion foes down and the main speakers open up significantly. Without the high pass this won't happen and the only advantage of a sub when integrated with the room is more bass and improved sound due to the low bass supporting the entire frequency envelope. This matters but isn't as important as taking the large load off the bottom of the main speakers.

I guess you’re not listening to Alan Walker at concert level..;)

I just added an SVS Micro 3000 to my Harbeth M30.1 based system.  Its certainly filling in space I knew I was missing.  My listening area is the right side of a 27 x 13 room and is pretty well damped.  

I can see how setting up a sub could be a PIA.  The SVS app on my android phone allows for tweaking in almost real time.  For my purposes I set the sub to "kick in" at 51hz and the volume setting at -28.  Most of the other settings I've left alone for now.  

I'd love to find an android app that can help with room measurements from my sitting position.  Any of you guys (or gal) know of an app that might be suitable?  

You're right. Everybody's situation is different, and the type of sub makes a difference, too. In my small 2.1 setup I use a 300w RMS 8" sealed sub that has substantially improved the sound of every bookshelf speaker I have tried.  It doesn't hurt that it has a rare high pass filter on the high level outputs.

Adding subs is always an improvement if crossed over right. But each person has to decide if the cost, space and complexity is worth it to them. 

Well obviously this is your opinion and your room with your speakers.  It may work for your system but that in no way guarantees the dame result for someone else.  Lately I have been reading too many opinions, etc., that are somewhat useless for other people's systems.

Happy Listening.