Why I'm not adding a sub to my 2-way monitors for music

Dear @erik_squires  : My mistake was that I read in your link: cut off at 40hz, now I understand thewhole subject. Thank's.

In the other side, yes integration of subs in a system always alter the tonal balance of that system and at least for me that's exactly what I was looking for when I integrated the subs to my room/system and yes too to your statement:

"  and that the end result must be set by personal preferences. There is no such thing as an objectively neutral subwoofer installation. "

Thank's again for your explanation.

R.

Dear @prof  : I don't know ofr read somewhere that a CS7.2 owner used subs integrated with liberating the Thiel woofers for that low bass range posted.

Yes, I know and heard once thge Thiel sub. My post was specific for your Thiel model but I have to say that my last listening to that model was several years ago and " things " change over time as our " mind " too.

R.

Dear @prof : Well, you are owner of Thiel speakers and this per sé says a lot. Till today every time I listened to Thiel speakers normally I like it and performs with high quality level under its model design limitations.

JT designs are all excellent not only in the choosed drivers but its box design/bracing. When we touch the speakers even at 90+dbs SPL we can’t be aware of almost any vibration/resonance.

JT speakers, even his top models, does not permit bi-amp by design. His designs were designed to be " untouchable " by audiophiles/DYs.

Your speakers does not needs subs and that’s why you do not need it, the CS 7.2 reproduce bass frequencies as low as around 23hz to 25hz and with low distortion levels but not all audiophiles own your Thiel speakers and that’s why we almost all needs subwoofers . The OP needs it too.

So your critic about the ones that we use subs are really unfair. Problem with all two way speaker designs and almost all 3 and up ways speaker designs is that normally the woofer crossover frequency is to high at around 350hz-400hz and in 2-way designs at least at 2khz and those facts makes that IMD been really high, so when we liberates the woofers from bass frequencies below 80hz-100hz then we have a true and real improvement that you or any one else can't make a negative critic because those subs are a specific and real necessity to enhance our quality level performance in our room/system of what we like : enjoyment of MUSIC.

That’s all and yes not for you. Btw, as a side advantages when integrated subs the main amplifier(s) are under lower distresss and room/system is benefited with higher headroom where it matters because the main amps are working a lot better in the mid/hi ranges and now we have dedicated powered subs designed expressely for the low bass range: we have all we need or can dream. Don't you think?

R.

Dear @erik_squires  : Dead silence. That maybe I just did not understand yet what you did it and that I ask to you 3 times if I'm wrong is not to agressive for your dead silence.  ? ! ? ! ? !

R.

@erik_squires  : Yes, I know that no one can be truer to the recording that's a desired room/system target but I think that what you did it had a different target.

Am I wrong?

R.

Dear @erik_squires  : Again re-reading your link we really can think what you stated there:  that your 2-way speakers ( system. ), that cut out at 40hz, and after all what you did it are performing at 20hz.

My take on all those:

the source recorded signal information certainly and normally goes lower than 30hz-40hz and even at 20hz or lower but your speaker can't reproduce what's in the recording that's different of what you achived in your room: two different things.

In the low bass range what you measured in your room is not what is in the recording: your room/system is reproducing something different down there that additional tame the other frequency ranges.

In my view you need subwoofers and not as a " tone control " but as a necessity for any 2-way speakers or even any passive speakers that crossover 150hz taking in count that every time we make that the speakers IMD goes lower we have a true quality performance levels no matters what.

In my case I like to listen what is in the recording, it's my main room/system target and for me can't be in other way.

With all respect I think you are not listening what is in the recording, you can't do it through the link wide explanation.

Maybe I'm wrong. What do you think?

Btw, in the same way that an amplifier or a preamp or a TT is not really a " tone control "  subwoofers certainly are not. Subwoofers are part of a speaker as are the tweeters or mid-range drivers.

In the old times Infinity top of the line speakers came with subwoofers ( non powered stand alone ones. ) and you can't buy it with out those subs towers. Today things changed a little and there are several speaker manufacturers where their top of the line models comes with powered subs integrated in the same whole speaker boxes and other separated as with the vintage Infinity. Certainly not a " tone control " audio item but a true/real necessity to reproduce MUSIC.

R.

@erik_squires  : I re-read your link and is very clear why your sub gone:

" For my own listening levels and choice of music there is almost no reason to add a subwoofer,..."

We MUSIC lovers/audiophiles that are mere " mortals " have not your high technical knowledge levels, tools and certainly not your very specific and unique targets. 

What you did it is not easy to duplicate but been our targets different means your " information " is exclusive for you inside the overall limitations solution.

Your link is a learning one ( at least for me ) and tell us a different way to make " things ". Certainly not for me.

Btw, you said something like: " the subs are a rtone control " and what you did it too.

R.

Dear @erik_squires : Several of those DBA fans are really that: fans and you know which one is ( non derogatory meaning. ) when with out ask nothing to the OP just posted it does not matters that the OP is looking for advise of subs to listen MUSIC at one and only one seat position. Obviously they need to learn but a fan normally is not abble to learn is not willing to learn.

https://www.trinnov.com/en/blog/posts/myth-busters-subwoofers-in-stereo-systems/

Now, my advise to you for and for any one is to go for Velodyne due that even in the low bass we need to look for quality in that reproduction range and THD figure in that frequency range is quite critical because its tame all the other frequency ranges.

THD in Velodyne is as low as 0.5% where no other affordable true subs can get. I think that only Magico 40K each sub can even that Velodyne critical measurement.

https://www.velodyneacousticssubwoofer.com/en/products/digital-drive-plus/

I understand that in the past you used subwoofer. What made that you let it gone?

R.

Dear friends: Normally I don't re-vised/recheck my posts and now that I did it I made a mistake about " fan " that I wanted to mean the same as erik and writed a different word.

My apologizes to all fans and I will fix my mistake that was and is not my attitude about.

R.

Dear @lemonhaze  : " Room treatment + DBA : Audio's best kept secret. "

That's is a rule or only your opinion? because not all MUSIC lovers/audiophiles have the same priorities or targets. The OP is a good example.

R.

Dear @erik_squires : You are rigth and we need to remember that all audio items choices come with its trade-offs and is up to us to choose the best trade-offs for each one of us.

Something I learned is that in any room/system what determines the overall quality performance level belongs how good is its bass range  and as better the room/system bass range as better that room/system quality performance.

R.

Dear @hshifi  : I understand your need too and I know very well the well regarded JL and Rel subs that hmore marketing that realities. What am I saying with realities?, example the JL THD is over 5% against the 0.5% in the Velodyne and Rel is not way better than JL in that very critical regards. So you have land down there to improve MUSIC and HT enjoyment the better.

R.

Dear @erik_squires  : I understand your point. Now the side advantage of subs is not only to go deeper in the bass range but with a better quality levels. Anyway your needs do to that 5.1 makes the subs a hard call but I think you will solve it.

R.

Dear @erik_squires : I’m not against what you already achieved because at the end is what you like and what you think.

I added subs to my really full range speakers for one main reason that name is: lower IMD. My ADS per sé goes down to 16hz but you have to pay a very high price for that: high IMD.

You have a 2-way speaker designs and this could means that you crossover 2.5khz to 3.5khz ( more or less ) from the woofer to the tweeter.

In any two way speaker design the IMD is rally high and this is the reason why you in reality need a pair of subs: to lower dramatically the IMD and when you do that the " ligth " comes out and your room/system will shines as ever before and as a side advantage is that now you can go deeper and with better quality performance in your bass range that’s where the MUSIC foundation lives and obviously that the electronics of your main speakers will works with out any kind of distress and with higher headroom and you don't need to measure anything because the best " measure " to that IMD are the IMD comparison you make trhough listening tests before and after. You can tame the IMD but you can't disappeared by room treatment or any other way because the IMD is developed by the speaker 2-way woofer.

Imagine your today IMD levels in your speakers when the movements on the woofer reproducing 35hz-40hz at the same time needs to reproduce frequency range above to at least 1khz ! ! ? ? ?

Tha’s my take for subs In any passive speakers.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,

R.