Hold on boys and girls this ride is gonna be rough!!!!
Why high-end cable manufacturers don't post measurements?
I'd like to get your take on why high-end manufacturers don't post measurements? would you like to see how a cable measure before ....does it matter to you?
150 responses Add your response
Yup, the thread is primed for measurement crowd and cable naysayers :-) For the purpose of contribution, as long as manufacturer discloses the cable design philosophy and metallurgy...I am good with trying any ‘high end’ cables out there. More importantly, the cables should also be reasonably priced. I am done with insanely priced cables.....lol! I trust my ears more than the measurements. If it measures good and sounds bad, what good is that cable regardless of its asking price? |
Yes, this is primed for cable naysayers. Why? Because there aren't any measurable differences between any reasonably designed cables. Nor any sonic differences that can be readily identified blind. Even the most expensive stuff from Cardas, Nordost, Kimber etc defy identification against the cheapest unbranded OFC copper design. You can bet the above mentioned companies would publish their findings if they had any. Alas there’s more chance of the British royal family publishing the results of Prince Harry’s DNA test. |
Well, I chose to believe in the concept of small diameter, individually insulated multi-strand, to minimize the 'Skin' effect of single or twisted strands of non-insulated small diameter strands. (Cat 5 like, what I use) excerpt: " Skin effect in audio cables is the tendency for high frequency signals to travel more on the surface than in the center of the conductor, as if the conductor were a hollow metal pipe.[3] This tendency, caused by self-inductance, makes the cable more resistant at higher frequencies, diminishing its ability to transmit high frequencies with as much power as low frequencies. As cable conductors increase in diameter they have less overall resistance but increased skin effect." from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speaker_wire#:~:text=Skin%20effect%20in%20audio%20cables,were%20a%20hollow%20metal%20pipe.&text=As%20cable%20conductors%20increase%20in,resistance%20but%20increased%20skin%20effect. Idea, all frequencies travel/arrive in closer time relative to other frequencies, on a minuscule level. I also believe the reason Analog bests Digital, is the minuscule difference of Analog's ability to get the overtone's timing perfect to the fundamental (despite analog being noiser, my R2R beating my LP, which beat CD) .............................. Surely they have they the ability to measure it's existance, have they published the true measurable difference/advantage compared to ordinary twisted? 10' length? 20' length. |
It would be helpful. Some cables' measurements fall outside the normal parameters, and can cause oscillation with some equipment. That could be avoided, for starters. I presume because they don't want to start some specmanship war, or to avoid people buying according to what they think are the optimal measurements for the big three (capacitance, resistance, inductance). Probably because some very costly cables are very poorly engineered. Probably because some cables measure very strangely, and the companies don't want/know how to explain why they perform well. Etc., etc. |
No measurements? Those guys don't understand the product, the requirements, the way it works, what cable is required for each system...They know nothing. On the other hand, they spread false information, about cables properties, as directional, skin effect, geometry, copper purity etc'. None is relevant. When looking deep into those claims, they hide ignorance and deception. So what matters: A cables resistance equals to the elements constant (copper) multiplied by length (m) divided by cross section in mm2. That resistance (R) should be in relation with the Amp's output resistance (Ro) or it's other name: Damping Factor (DF). The manufacturers never said a word about it. So what kind of measurements should they do and provide information about? |
The don’t show measurements in many cases Because they haven’t devised measurements that can show the differences that we can hear. Most manufacturers state that they won’t post details of their cables because they don’t want their competitors to know. Same reason KFC do’s this post their 11 secret spices. |
The don’t show measurements in many cases Because they haven’t devised measurements that can show the differences that we can hear. Most manufacturers state that they won’t post details of their cables because they don’t want their competitors to know. Same reason KFC do’s this post their 11 secret spices. ^^ This! Audiophiles (correction- measurebators- see below) doggedly cling to the measurement mantra. Audio measurements are about as meaningful as megapixels in cameras. https://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/mpmyth.htm Measurements are really only meaningful in a very detached and technical sense and even then really only useful when it comes to design. Its like, in order to build a speaker you need to understand a whole bunch of technical aspects of drivers, ports, cabinets. But these things all go together, every one impacts every other one, and so ultimately its down to the imagination and creativity of the designer to come up with the right mix of tradeoffs that sound good. But at the same time if a manufacturer did list a spreadsheet full of measurements this would be like an open invitation to others to try and reverse engineer and copy, cheating them of all their hard work. Its actually good they don’t list this stuff. The less they measure the more we have to listen. Which is what we should be doing in the first place. lol! If you think measurements matter don’t read this! https://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/7.htm "Many of them also play with audio equipment " ROTFLMAO! |
Because there aren't any measurable differences between any reasonably designed cables.Check out http://www.ielogical.com/Audio/CableSnakeOil.php for how cables interact with components. Be sure to read the Garen Galeis papers. Also https://www.stereophile.com/content/what-difference-wire-makes from 1995. Nor any sonic differences that can be readily identified blind.It depends on the system. Some systems will confound the most skilled listeners. Some systems are relatively immune to cable effects. Other combinations are like flipping a switch. |
"So are some of the prices—with exotic speaker cables ranging up to $100/m, or even more!" What a difference 25 years make. https://www.stereophile.com/content/what-difference-wire-makes |
Miller, your use of that KenRockwell article for dramatic effect is totally disingenuous. Megapixels matter very much, but not if the sensors actual surface area is small. Which is why claiming you’ve squeezed 20+ MP onto a 1.7” sensor is meaningless, because it won’t be able to collect the same amount of light for any given shutter speed as a larger, smaller MP sensor. |
Mr.
ieales
To many words to say nothing! Ok. " It depends on the system. Some systems will confound the most skilled listeners. Some systems are relatively immune to cable effects. Other combinations are like flipping a switch." Which systems do sound different and which don't? Why is that? What parameter of the system make the difference? The truth is that you don't know. I DO. For the other guy, who claim that a cable length is a measurement, or it's gauge. Would you buy a car with that kind of information? |
"For the other guy, who claim that a cable length is a measurement, or it’s gauge." Huh, I do not like the idea of being "the other guy", but here I am. However you take it, length is a measurement and gauge should be, too. How pertinent are they is up to the individual user, but measurements they are. I would not mind knowing how long the car would be, if bought. If I remember your identical although way more visited thread from some time ago, you consider gauge as the most important cable measurement. After using the formula based on DF, it all comes down that we need cables with gauge 0. |
@b4icu Which systems do sound different and which don’t?All systems sound different. Room, component tolerances and age, humidity, temperature, pressure, YOU all conspire to alter the sound. Why is that?Do the math. What parameter of the system make the difference?Everything. "Some of my work involved tuning the power supply. It may come as a surprise to learn that you can change tonality without even touching the signal path, because the signal originates from the power supply. The impedance curve of the N11’s power supply is absolutely homogenous from DC to 200kHz, which creates a very balanced sound. I also tuned the resistors for the voltage gain, using a mix of carbon and metal resistors to create a neutral balance. There are a lot of preamps that claim to be ’neutral’ or ’in balance,’ but there are different shades of ’neutral.’ If you have a tube preamp, for example, ’neutral’ is at a different level than solid-state; it’s not better or worse, but it is different. It took a lot of work to find the tonal balance I like a lot that measures well, with low noise, and fits very well in the Noble Line." [emphasis added] from https://www.stereophile.com/content/mbl-noble-line-n11-line-preamplifier The truth is that you don’t know.I don’t think you read what I or Mr Galeis wrote. If you did, it’s beyond your ken. I DO.Methinks not. |
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Cable measurements don't really matter, better measurements haven't always lead to better sound in our hobby. Complex and "creative" cable geometries used by high-end cable manufacturers are used to alter the way a cable sound, this is what audiophiles want in a cable...to hear a difference!!! to add or subtract something that he sees as an enhancement to the performance of his system. Why are measurements not posted? because many of these complex geometries measure poorly compared to the very basic double helix and coaxial design, this could be hard to explain for high-end manufacturers when their prices are many times more. What I want to see more from high-end cable manufactures is better description of conductor and dielectric materials, guage, and design philosophy....something to compare one product to another. Otherwise, we are all just buying on reviews or hype alone. |
First one has to understand the complexity of the question. Which is definitely NOT in the OP or any other thread of any similar bent. the OP may innocently be asking a question, or ...may be purposely trying to ignite flames, to zipper excite the minds of those who are illiterate and desirous of self improvement, and all chock full of projection. Answering the question..well..it requires the person to increase their knowledge and increase their capacity to discriminate, and increase their capacity to ruminate. The damned mountain ain’t coming down to anyone -- any time soon. One must raise themselves to it. Or be left in the seeming ceaseless churning stew of relentless illiteracy. To fight and work one’s way out of it.... or be rightly ignored, for all the correct reasons. I’d be a bit more kind than that but some don’t get the message about these things. Today..I’m not in the mood..so I’m a bit more harsh than usual. For the incessant repeat offenders..the haters..well..tell me, gather close..tell me some more... tell me all about your lack of hearing discernment... |
@teo_audio, How could it possibly be disappointing, as the hammer of projections and illiteracy, is, by it’s very nature.... relentless? It’s like asking that I give all blood in all possible ways, to another. To give it and they don’t accept nor understand that they have taken. To do so a thousand times over and when done, do it a thousand times over again. Without release. And..somehow... if I don’t do so, I am. .. somehow ...petty and/or unkind. The fact that I'm responding at all, means I do try, and I do care. A person who refuses to listen and refuses to address the self with regard to increasing their own cognition.. is not worthy of being addressed. And invariably aren't. That thing that most western people, in their very first semester of university or college, finally have to come to grips with: no one is forcing them to be there. They are paying to be there, and the projections of insolence, the desire to break free, the need to be against the enforced, the earlier enforced basic education system...to rally against the enemy, is gone. They have to understand that they are there by choice and desire... and to stop it with the projections and the ingrained behaviors that constitute their past. So. Like the combative campus participant who refuses to realize this, they should expect to be thrown out and off the campus. Like life it's self, it's an intelligence test, an awareness test, a cognitive test. |
Teo, don’t worry about them. The haters only exist to hate. They’re not interested in objective thinking. Objective to them means whatever fits their narrow field of vision. Their ideas calls into question even their credibility to themselves, forget to anyone else. They cannot trust what their ears hear because it would violate the oath of their office of improperly used and applied measurements. I actually posted a video by OCD guy that showed measurements which disputed the many claims on the Audioholics I tube video about power cords and asking where’s the measurements. It was funny as there was not one single comment made by them. Not even the usual post saying it doesn’t show what they say, it shows x instead. They couldn’t because it was exactly the same measurements they have been trying to use to prove there are no differences in cables. Who knows, maybe that’s the reason for all their recent anger, their bubble has been burst. They’re the same guys who wouldn’t believe the earth was round even after it was proven that it was. And the moon landings were nothing more than a studio creation by the government. Lol |
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Mr. glupson
We had a general, who later became a minister. His name was Moshe Dayan. He had a patch on one eye. It was a joke that one day he drove his car, he saw a nice lady at the road side and blinked to her.He ended up in the ditch. You are one eye folded, and when it get's out of your league, you close your other eye? No, not only #0 awg. Look at my thread: How to select a good Speaker Cable and you will find out that a guy called Mr. keppertup doubled his older # 0 awge to 2x 0 AWG and it sounds even better. You stick a #0 awg cable as a solution for all, at a time it's not! You ignore my say, you ignore the results and you are heading the ditch... |
Dan Recklinghausen, HH Scott's Chief Engineer, famously said: "If it measures good and sounds bad - it is bad. If it measures bad and sounds good - you've measured the wrong thing." I am not a cable naysayer - in fact, if I cared more I would resent that moniker because it presumes that the default is to accept claims of expensive cable amazingness, and that the burden of disproof is on others, whereas I would say the opposite is true. I am a cable skeptic, however, who thinks that if there are improvements to be had from boutique cables, they are heavily subject to the law of diminishing returns. That said, I am certainly open to trying new things so long as they don't cost me an arm and a leg to demo. If someone hears a difference, great. And if they are happy with their choice, double great. Not for me to judge, especially since I know well that there are people out there who hear much better than I do. BUT, I have observed two phenomena that inform my skepticism of claims by both owners and manufacturers. First, I rarely see people say that they did double blind testing of their cables; it tends to read more like - "I plugged it in and the difference was astonishing!" Second, so many cable companies pour on the ridiculous marketing speak - all kinds of pseudo science and outlandish claims. These phenomena obfuscate the core issues of why and whether: is there a rationale behind the cable sounding better and did you really test to confirm that you are actually hearing what you think you're hearing? To answer OPs question: cable companies don't post measurements because they make a $h!t ton of money selling cables and measurements don't sell. Cables are incredibly lucrative and facts don't enter into the sale as powerfully as perception. Also, many cable companies do not post measurements because they don't have them, though there are exceptions such as Kimber. See this post here by John Dunlavy. https://verber.com/cables/ |
I think it is reasonable to ask for capacitance and inductance measurements. This is useful for determining compatibility with electronics, particularly for longer cables. I also find it useful to know the conductor material and primary insulation material (the insulation used on the primary conductors). While I wouldn't necessarily rule out a cable that used an unusual dielectric material, I'm more likely to try out a cable if I know it uses PFTE or FEP insulation since I have some experience in they way they sound. For speaker cable or power cords, it's also helpful to know the effective wire gauge, particularly for longer runs. |
lost, I’ve done blind tests and just normal listening. I’d don’t believe in spending because something is expensive, in fact I’d much prefer to find something that performs as well as much more expensive products, similar to the way tekton speakers do that for me. I don’t think you have to do blind tests as long as you’re honest witho yourself about what you’re hearing. Don’t believe claims, and I’m not sure most of us do, most listen. I do think there’s far too much assumption that people buy based on a name or price, or that they defend something that dosnt really hold up because of the money they spent. I do believe the ones who claim that do so because they wish to justify not spending themselves in some cases. I have found most consumers are quite vocal when something doesn’t do what they expected, they don’t defend the product. I see the opposite, they tend to be very negative and vocal about it, write bad reviews etc. someone who is happy is much less likely to, because it did what they expected all along. So there are some incorrect assumptions being made, in part for some for the reasons I’ve mentioned. There are many studies avaible about consumer behavior. I own a retail store myself, dealing in a range of price points in my industry, but heavily skewed towards upper mid to high end as it evolved over the years starting at entry to mid level. I find even those buying entry level seem to expect a lot ( many times more than that level would ever be able to provide) and are just as vocal as those who buy at the high end. People tend to make up their own logic when people are positive about something that they don’t see the same way on this forum, that does not translate to real world experience outside the hobby. I agree with your post as far as how you view these things for the most part. Yes most cables companies profit levels are obscenely high in my opinion, it whatever the market will bear I guess is the rule. They don’t post measurements or details of construction for two reasons, first, and many state this, they don’t want their competitors to imitate them. Next, as I’ve said many times, there are no measurements even for things we can all agree on. Stage depth and width. We seem to all agree that exists. Show me the measurement for that. Detail, resolution, dryness, speed, sweetness, etc etc. so where is the huge outcry to show to us these measurements. Why aren’t the same people who deny there are differences in cables because they cannot be measured, also not denying the above mentioned characteristics, and their very existence as being in our minds, and not real. It’s simple. Personal bias. We all have them, in one way or another. Some are more open to things then other, and some minds are completely closed to anything outside their own views. |
It reminds me of the time when I was a kid and would dream about owning the best amp in the world when I got wealthy. I would endlessly pour over spec sheets seeking to find the one with the most power, lowest THD and the highest damping factor. I knew the perfect recipe back then, and listening didn’t even come into it. |
b4icu, I am quite familiar with Moshe Dayan from some stories, but have never known about his appreciation of art. I did follow your previous thread and it eventually came down to gauge 0, ok even 00, with all the inconveniences of connectiong it to an amplifier. Which then gets done with much thinner wire. Nobody was recommended gauge 12, I think. |
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Transparent is the worst offender. Their cables have "Networks" that are enclosures somewhere in the middle of the cables. What's in there? They ain't talking. I owned a cheaper model and the network was made of plastic. The cables were balanced so there were 2. So I broke it, but I got it open. There were shunt filters which consisted of a cheap Radio Shack capacitors in series with an equal quality resistor going from the mains into the ground lead. So in theory they could have "shunted" some HF noise, but these were $350 20 years ago. Their top of the line speaker cables, The MM Opus, has a network the size of a football and it's made of a sealed composite. Only 40 large. 40 big ones for a cables they won't even explain how it works. |