I have seen the argument over and over again on why cables matter and the that wire is just wire and how scientifically it’s impossible for them to make a difference. The thing that surprises me the most is that different materials are used. Different shielding is used. Different connectors are used. Different braiding methods of the cables are used. Materials are sourced from different manufacturers and put through different creative processes but I always get some guy who comes on and says. WIRE IS WIRE AND YOU ARE NOT HEARING WHAT YOU ARE HEARING? To me it’s pure arrogance to think you know more than everybody else to the point where you tell me what we are hearing through my ears and we are not smart enough to know when are minds are playing trick on us. But using all these different materials, process and shielding and creative processes don’t make a difference. I spent the last 15 years trying all the cables I could try. Thoughts anyone?
Who exactly is the "we" you apparently pretend to represent?
If some simple measurements would please you, feel free to make some of your own.
The "we" are the ones you referred to as not interested in discussion, but would rather disrupt it. I'm assuming I might seem to be in that camp, but I really am interested in learning more about this, not just disrupting for disruption's sake.
I will definitely make some measurements if I think I hear something change as a result of changing cables. For now, I'm happy with what I see on the Passlabs website link I posted.
I had that same speaker. I bought mine back around 1991 or '92. I liked them but didn't tend to use that crosstalk cable. I didn't understand how it was supposed to work and so I honestly never noticed the SDA effect. Many years later I set up my own SDA arrangement using four bookshelf speakers and it was highly effective. By then I understood the concept and knew how to set it up and what to listen for, but no longer had the SDA speakers. More recently I've used 3 speakers to get the same effect, mixed L-R, L+R, R-L. This has once again been done with little bookshelf speakers, but I just bought a 3rd horn tweeter so I'm on my way to getting it set up in a fully horn loaded arrangement.
This article answers my questions. Cables can definitely make a difference. I don’t see why they need to cost a lot, but you may need a specific mix of resistance, inductance, capacitance with any given system to get a most desired result. In some cases you need some resistance in the cable to protect the amp! In my opinion this should never be the case, but I'm sure some will argue that making a speaker behave like that somehow makes it sound better.
They’re not interested in conversation - they seek to disrupt it.
We’d love to see just some decent explanation of what’s going on. I’d be happy with some simple measurements. If there’s a subtle but reliably measurable difference in speaker output between the two cables, that’d be enough to convince me, and we’d have a solid explanation of what’s going on. I would expect the cable manufacturers to provide this data on at least a small selection of amps and speakers, not a task for end users. Although, I have a calibrated mic. and REW so I can do those sorts of things. I have done it with amplifiers, but never felt a need for cables because I never thought I heard anything. If there are important differences, these can be described by the cable specifications, just like the parameters on a speaker driver.
I use hardware calibration for my monitor. My software tells me how accurate the colors my screen puts out are. If I swap digital cables, it shows me a different measured result
That's very interesting! Is the difference easily visible as well? Is this issue with cables a well known phenomenon in the video industry? I have a new TV that has far better color than I've had on previous TVs. I have it hooked up to various devices and haven't noticed a difference in color if I watch the same Apple TV show through my Apple TV box or directly off the TV's built-in app. I haven't looked that closely but they look very similar, close enough for my eyes. I know there are differences in color perception. My parents couldn't tell if the color was way off, and that surprised me. I can tell if it's way off but maybe not if it's just a little off.
The 3 primary things that affect cable sound are capacitance, inductance and skin affect followed by materials like; jacketing, connectors, solder.... Not every cable designer uses the same amount of each.
Several years ago I was gifted WireWorld TOL series 8 prototype speaker cables XLR interconnects, and mid level power cords. Overall they did not make magic in my system at the time. Eventually, I replaced all of them with Ali-E Odin II gold knock offs which sing better. I also upgraded the CD transport and power cords from the lessor WW PCs to a huge sonic improvement. at some point I will reinsert the WW X>R and speaker cables just to test how I feel with them now.
For years, I used a pair of silver cables I made myself (~$100) for my CD player (CAL Icon 2 to Klyne System 7 ver. 4 pre-amp), a pair of Discovery cables to my amps (Lectron JH-50 and Conrad-Johnson MF2550), and a pair of long Mapleshade cables to my ProAc Response 3.8 speakers. Some time ago, I replaced all IC’s with Odin II IC’s and Valhalla speaker cables I purchased from Hi-Fi Store on AliExpress. After less than a half an hour that it took me to install new IC’s, I started to evaluate the sound. I listened hard, but I could not convince myself if I heard any difference. I thought before that my system sounded very good and I was not surprised – I admit I was very skeptical about effects of cables for years and this just confirmed my previous skepticism. Then, I installed the new speaker cables and played a CD I listened for decades. I got this CD as a bonus when I purchased my Lectron JH-50, the first piece of high-end equipment I ever got. The year was 1991! The CD was Two of a Kind by Karin Krog and Bengt Hallberg. This is a very natural sounding music and I listen this CD quite often. The music with my new cables sounded more rich and more dynamic, the bass was deeper and it all sounded better to my ears. The difference was small but I believe I heard it. The localization of instruments on the stage got a little more diffuse (and this I heard very well), but the beauty of sound convinced me this was better. When I listened through my new IC’s I was using the old thin Mapleshade speaker wires and apparently, they were the main problem in my system. So, I dropped them in the garbage, and went to bed happy that I made improvement to the sound of my system and I admitted to myself that my previous belief that cables were irrelevant was wrong.
Next day, I returned to my music room with anticipation – am I going to enjoy my better sound more than ever before? Of course, I will… everybody says so! So, I played the same songs that I always do when I want to get impressed. I have loved them for years because of their beauty and their sound and I knew them well… So, what did I hear? They had sounded awesome before, and they sounded awesome again. Did they sound better? I could not tell. My aural memory betrayed me! So, did my system really sound better? I could not tell that either but I concluded a day before that it did, so I felt the new cables were worth of keeping in my system. They were quite inexpensive so I did not make a fool of myself by spending some major amount of money expecting a miracle from several pieces of wire.
However, I must admit, the change in sound I heard when I replaced the cables was small. I had to listen for the sound to hear them. And, while I was listening for the sound differences, I lost my connection with music – I heard more sound than music. I play acoustic guitar and, when I listen to the music, I listen for the song, structure of the song, chord progression, fingerpicking pattern, lyrics, bridges, voice, pronunciation… I try to learn the song while listening. While focusing on these items, I do not hear cables. I already concluded that my system sounded better so I do not have to hear these tiny differences every time - I can now continue to listen the way I prefer and focus on music.
Listening to cables does not make much sense to me and I will never try any expensive cables no matter where they are made and what they are made of. Am I missing some major effect that only expensive cables can reveal (expensive cables sound better, don’t they)? I doubt and I do not care. My love is for music and, for the way I listen to the music, it is irrelevant what different cables may sound like. I listen to the songs, not cables. This is why cables do not matter to me.
Why is it that cable deniers always want some kind of measurement or "blind testing" result that PROVES what I hear vs what they hear? ... What’s the point?
They're not interested in conversation - they seek to disrupt it.
Hello, new poster here. Been reading here for some time.
I'm posting to ask a question or two on the subject of cables.
I can say that I have yet to experience the change in cables and burn in.
Also not stating that it does not happen. What I am wondering is what happens within the cable itself that is changed that contributes to the betterment in sound?
I have googled this and have read much of what's out there. I have consulted a couple of professors at the local University about the questions I'm asking.
I am asking this here because there is a large number of people that have actual
Why is it that cable deniers always want some kind of measurement or "blind testing" result that PROVES what I hear vs what they hear?
I don’t care if you can hear a difference in your system or not.
What’s the point?
Do you actually want to GET TO a point in your system where you CAN hear a difference?
Or are you happy with your current equipment that you cannot hear a difference with, and therefore no one else (no matter what equipment they have and use) can hear a difference either?
Fools don’t tend to be affluent, just saying. Quite the opposite.
Affluent hobbyists (audiophiles) tend to be successful because they’re NOT fools. If cables didn’t matter, people wouldn’t continue to buy them.
You do you. Once you get to a certain level of equipment and setup, everything makes a difference.
Thanks Calvinj, it's much appreciated.....I may take you up on that offer, but at a later date. I'm working on a dedicated listening room being built in the basement, and it won't be completed to the end of the year.....probably later since there have already been delays with electricians and carpenters.
@vthokie83yes now you are talking ! My system is built to be highly resolving. Low noise floors. A super Dac The Infigo Method 4. The Infigo Method 6 stereo amplifier. Gato Speakers. Highly resolving systems show bigger differences.
Yes and no that cables matter. The following is what I have found to be true, but that is in my $16,000 mid-fi system.....which I keep upgrading:
(1) XLR cables versus single ended RCA - My system is "true balanced" on the solid state side, and yes XLR cables do sound better than downgrading to single ended RCA
(2) Power supply does matter - Using high quality power receptacles (Furutech GTX-D(G), GTX-D(R), and Oyaide R1 all improved the overall sound. Yes I also have 2 dedicated lines pulled from my power panel, one each for the Panamax power conditioner and one for amplification. Plugging the amplifier directly into the receptacle and not going through the power conditioner provides better dynamics, speed, and soundstage.
(3) As I've upgraded the quality of my components, better cables do improve the overall sound quality....to a point. I use cables that deliver above their price point. Morrow Audio, AntiCables, Supra Cables, DHLabs, Zavfino, Oyaide, Cullen Cables
Cables that I've borrowed above that price point do make subtle improvements, but definitely not in line with the cost of those cables. My assumption is that my system is not resolving enough to hear the improvements that others may hear with higher end gear. Also I don't think my ears are as discerning as some of you, most everything I still own sounds good.....once I got to a certain level of cables.
(4) Cables are system dependent - I have 2 amplifiers, one Tubes4hifi VTA ST-120 tube amp with KT 120 power tubes, and one Denafrips Thallo amp. The best cables for the tube amp are not the best in the Solid State amp, and vice versa
(5) Digital cables do make an audible differences. HDMI I2S (Supra 2.1 and Audioquest Vodka), Digital co-ax (Morrow Audio), and USB (Supra Excalibur, Oyaide, and Wireworld), and Toslink optical (Supra, Audioquest). The most improvement is definitely USB cables, and then Digital co-ax.....I think that just upgrading to use I2S was the biggest improvement; but the Audioquest Vodka 48 8K is a noticeable improvement over the Supra 2.1 HDMI cable....but is 3 times the price
(6) I love to "tube roll" my tube amplifier, and trying and using different cables provides me with similar enjoyment. Not everyone will feel the same
To my ears and in my rig+room, i am able to easily discern differences in cables upto a certain pricepoint. I have many of the audioquest cables from their entry/mid price point to higher end. All their cables can preserve/present more detail and clarity than crap wire and crap amazon cables. But , as I go higher up their price ladder, it feels like pulling teeth to hear any differences from their own lower priced cables.
Guys with untreated rooms, lower quality gear and poor setups will have a much harder time discerning differences with any cable...in other words, it is a prerequisite that must be met before starting to experiment with cables.
Overall, i really don't care to experiment with a bunch of different cables from different manufacturers, swap a bunch of cables all day and wear out the connector/receptacles in my pricier gear. Done!
You're complaining about how you don't understand people, as usual. That looks like about all you do, this thread.
When I assumed someone would want 10 story tall speaker system, I went on to assume someone would want IEM's also. Can we assume that there will be proponents of both? If we can't, what should we do?
I was just telling you what Dion was saying. Well, he's not looking to get married, is what I said on top of that. Why? Do you have something to say about it?
A lot of nonsense and exaggeration in your post, as well as silly assumptions about what audiophiles want from their systems. As far as Dion goes, I don't know what you're trying to say...
You're totally right, I don't know how anyone cannot like OCC single crystal over OFC wire and just to let you know the rectangular OCC single crystal wire is even better than the round, not cheap though, check out the Neotech Sahara which is the copper rectangular OCC or the Amazon which is the silver rectangular OCC that's one is double the price of the copper, I have the Sahara in my system and it absolutely blew away my harmonic technology round OCC, I have the full loom of the rectangular in my system and boy did it make a difference but an even more significant difference and upgrade is putting the Townshend podiums underneath your speakers it stops all vibration down to three Hertz, it was as if I upgraded my electronics to something way more expensive, best upgrade that you could ever do. stops all room problems as well.
I use hardware calibration for my monitor. My software tells me how accurate the colors my screen puts out are. If I swap digital cables, it shows me a different measured result. Sound will be like that too, some people will argue they can tell even more.
I just started with power cables, and got the $50 super fat and cheaply shielded pair from Amazon. They made a huge improvement into each of my amp, dac, pc, and monitor. After those, it will be all about the smart guy’s way of making better cables, and how much purity of metal costs on top of it. I’m not really looking forward to that, but I know in my head that big fat high purity cables will be better. My poor wallet.
Oh, but if you happen to be running a pc that’s plugged into a cheap $20 power bar, you won’t believe how much deeper your audio and video’s digital signals really are until you get it off of that. The $50 power cable will help that even more, too. You’re probably going to need a power distributor if you have a component-stereo setup, though. The cable you use for that will make a difference to everything...
Just skip this hobby, you’ll need to get rich to make it sound like it’s supposed to, anyhow. Actually, you could do it with only 1 billion. Even with the 10-story tall planars with 2 10 story tall stacks of 1 story subs behind them in a stadium with the roof open, that someone will say sounds better. I could get back into good headphones if that’s what I really needed, though. They’ve only reached costing $6k so far, outside of the Orpheus and Sennheiser’s $40k set that includes its custom amp and built in dac, encased in marble. That set is nonsense, since you can plug a better dac in, right away. I don’t know how much the best amp with a headphone jack is. Why do they stop including headphone jacks on power amps? Hmm, you would need the older 3-pin pair of XLR connectors on an unbraided pair of cables for the dual mono blocks, at some point. Nobody cares about headphone listeners, yet. They all want stadium sized sound. Which you could argue sounds better. But, as the speakers get further away, you might miss something compared to the speaker being right next to your ear. Then the IEM people will get right into your head. I don’t know, I still like my cheap HD800 open-backs, so far. With the microphone-measured EQ running as a plug-in only through Audirvana, they’re really nice. It will be the same problem I had with the HD 600's though, I still know they were cheap. Plus, I haven't heard planars or electrostats, yet. Then I'll want a more powerful amp, too. :( My DAC is ready for that upgrade, though! 👍 A good dac on $50 speakers would so sound like they were playing something that sounds good.
Interestingly, last night I saw some video's of black and white 60's performances at 4k50fps on YouTube. If you have a 4k monitor, you should look them up. Too bad they do something to your pictures and sound that make them worse, after already making you have to make them small. They have not looked anywhere near as good at home, until now.
That guy Dion is a wanderer, he's not going to get married. Those other girls will be real nice ones, though. 😍
When I’ve been involved in deep disagreements with someone I usually go the reductionist route - i.e. trying to find the fork in the road between our beliefs so as to find the common ground before it.
In this case, I suggest the most productive conversation would be about how to scientifically prove cables matter. Whether listening tests or some form of measurement...whatever...but if we can’t even agree on a method of proof, this will go on forever.
I’ve found that quick switches in the audio signal, like you’d have in a double blind, may be somewhat effective in detecting differences, but unless one of the samples is truly bad, I have found that these quick switches do not tell you which is superior. It’s often the case that hot treble sounds better at first but is fatiguing.
This happens to me often when I switch gear. An immediate improvement is detected but in the long run the other was better, or vice versa.
Long term listening is far more effective to me in terms of what sounds best. But not really effective to be able to differentiate at the snap of a finger.
In other words, audio comparisons are amazingly challenging relative to, say, comparing something visually. There is nothing to put your finger on in the same way.
Let’s fix that issue and agree on a form of proof and then someone just do it. I’m too busy but I’ll definitely watch 🍿
@asctim the cable that goes from left to right channel in the Polk sda is out of phase and does work really well. I've had Polk sda2a speakers for over 30 years and with upgraded crossovers and tweeters they do some things better than My apogee duetta 2 speakers can do, plus they can be positioned up against the wall.
Everything matters in delivering the audio signal the ears. Components matter, so do the power supplies in those components, and the quality of the capacitors and resistors, and the type and quality of attenuators, and the hookup wire used to connect everything. And we have to include the quality of the connectors, as well as the type of wire used and the design of the cables. This is a chain and every link matters. Some more than others, but none can be discounted as not mattering.
It's not a matter of whether something works or not; it's about the effect it has on the end result.
I don't think many users here are interested in submitting blind test results
au contraire - I would enjoy reading the results of controlled blind listening tests involving golden ear'ed listeners comparing popular contenders from the upper, middle, and more pedestrian cable lines.
I have spent a large part of my life (sadly) participating in organized religion with people who have the same mentality as people who say cables matter. Lots of faith, no actual proof. Get back to us when there is some actual blind testing to validate your opinion.
It looks like you've found your own religion. I don't think many users here are interested in submitting blind test results to measurementalists, so you may be in the wrong place.
What I want is a cable that minimizes inter-aural crosstalk. Polk Audio has a cable like that going between their speakers in their flagship SDA line. I'm someone who notices the center image frequency response dip caused at each ear by the interference from the speakers. People talk about coherency, but there's nothing coherent about 2 tweeters 8 feet apart trying to play the same sound. It starts to comb filter at each ear typically around 2k, and that's not where I want to hear a very strong and immediate phase interference cancellation. This dip is well within the audible range, yet few complain about it. They hear issues with different cables loud and clear, but that dip doesn't "phase" them. We all focus on different aspects of the sound. My ears are easy to satisfy when it comes to cables, but a little more difficult to satisfy when it comes to 2 channel stereo playback.
I bought silver cables once and heard a night and day difference - until I blind tested myself. It absolutely blew my mind that the difference I perceived vanished just by me not knowing which cable I was listening to. After that, it no longer mattered if I knew. I had broken the spell.
I'm not saying that your silver cables aren't making a real difference. I'm just saying that a real night and day perceptual difference can happen because of sighted bias. Maybe it's better if you don't know...
After using authentic OCC copper or silver cables, I will not buy or use anything else. The clarity, dyamics, timing, all improved over ofc cables which have significant grain boundaries. I would say for me the difference was night and day.
I read about the perceived sound changes, and then I see stuff about how the cables are made, and how this and that might cause a difference. What I don’t see is anything that gives an in depth explanation with any real substance to it of just how the changes in cable construction effect the performance of the connected equipment, and how that relates to audible perception. Something interesting would be to show a phase shift or frequency response shift or change in noise and distortion that is known to be in the audible range. If none of those things are being changed, what else might be causing a change? If you aren’t doing a double blind test, then you absolutely cannot rule out listener bias, which can have a very powerful effect on audio perception in my experience. Our brain actively tries to interpret what it hears based on other things it knows about what’s being listened to. It works that way with smell too. My office manager told me she was mortified that someone came in to the office with horrible body odor. She was practically choking on each breath. She turned around to see who it was, and saw that it wasn’t body odor, but some fresh cooked food with a lot of onions in it. Suddenly it smelled just fine to her!
I should add to this that if you aren't doing blind testing, but you can show measurements showing response differences that are known to be in the audible range, then there's really no need to do blind testing. I've perceived differences in equipment and was able to verify those differences with measurements. There's no reason to go further with blind testing.
@mitch2Thank you. I am not a BJC supporter though the make a good product and I have used their cables in various systems over the years. I do however use a 9 awg cable now from Zavfino currently. Was not really and advertisement it was a cut from their webpage and is more informational than advertising. I just recalled reading it and thought I would share. https://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/speaker/index.htm
@everyone I always see snake oil comments when it comes to cables. The crazy part is those who make the comments think the rest of us who believe cables make a difference and we are a bunch bumbling idiots that are suckers because we can tell cables make a difference or we have equipment typically more expensive sometimes where the system is transparent enough for us to hear the difference. The thing that puzzles me is that most of us spend a lot of time and resources on our systems. The majority of us are intelligent enough to make decisions about our systems that are ear pleasing to us. The arrogance of someone else telling the rest of us that we are suckers that are not hearing what we hear and we need to be told why is the most laughable thing I have seen in my life and this hobby.
I also don’t understand the issue. Since it was in bold, I understood your point was related to BJC’s opinion that low resistance is the main factor affecting speaker cables and that the best way to get there is to increase the wire gauge. This is not an uncommon opinion but some here will probably say there is more to it.
I did find it interesting that BJC discussed resistance/gauge in an advertisement for 12awg cables, which are actually not that large. One of my favorite SCs over here is a full double run of Harmonic Technology Pro 9+, which provides 9awg (x2) of small gauge, individually insulated, solid core, OCC copper wire to each of my bi-wired speaker posts. My other favorites are a double run of 13awg Furutech OCC cables, and a double run of 7awg old stock Western Electric wire. However, all three of those cables, from the 4awg aggregate WE wire (i.e., 7awg x 2) to the 10awg aggregate Furutech wire, seem to offer adequately low resistance, although they do each sound a bit different from the others.
I have spent a large part of my life (sadly) participating in organized religion with people who have the same mentality as people who say cables matter. Lots of faith, no actual proof. Get back to us when there is some actual blind testing to validate your opinion.
@roxy54Interesting. As someone posted in the string about material (matter) construction and gauge, playing into conductivity and captaincy I felt it was very relative to the conversation.
Sorry it did not meet your high standards and I did not know you are a moderator here. I will try and keep this in mind, what you think that is. 🤔🤨😏
The biggest issue in speaker cables, from the point of view of sound quality, is simply conductivity; the lower the resistance of the cable, the lower the contribution of the speaker cable’s resistance to the damping factor, and the flatter the frequency response will be
I didn't see what it contributed to the conversation. In addition to that, you posted it without introduction or comment which seemed strange.
Cables have a sound for better or for worse. They are not universal and may not produce the same sound in different systems. We once won an award for best of show using a cheap Adcom copper cable used as a digital cable. Not one reviewer asked about what cables we were using in that system but they all have reviewed cables.
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