When Will the DAC Singularity Be Reached?

Never! As long as the money philes believe that spending more equates to ever-increasing sound quality. There will always be a new uber-expensive DAC for TAS to review!

You've been reading too much ASR.  Cheap DACs are not outperforming high end DACs.  

I think the quality of Delta-sigma DAC chips had gotten very good and will continue to subtly improve, but there is more to a really good DAC than these chips. Quality clocks, output stages, power supplies, enclosures, and even connectors, are quite expensive and not getting any less so. All these things contribute to the sound quality (some more than others).

If anything, I suspect that the sound quality from inexpensive DACs (under $2500) has probably nearly reached its peak since the other parts necessary to build a good DAC are only getting more expensive.

Or will the need for DACs be simply eliminated. I predict that DACs will eventually be used only in the esoteric realm like turntables and CD players are used today. The "audiophiles" are ageing and as technology moves past them more products like the Peachtree GaN1 with only a Coaxial S/PDIF input will replace the DAC.

There is a broad misunderstanding that is encouraged by the manufacturer that the Peachtree GaN1 is a "digital amp".  There is no such thing.  Inside the PT amp, there is a DAC.  My guess is it is a common chip and if you open it up you'll find all the markings polished off of it.  The GaN-FET is a different type of class D amp--an analog amp.  They have just put everything together in an integrated and marketed it as something it is not.

So no, that isn't going to make DACs obsolete, it just moved them inside.

Jerry

That wasn't my understanding of how class D works.  Yes the digital signal is being converted to an analog signal but at the amplifier section not at the input section.  A DAC converts digital to analog but a class D amp to my understanding does the same thing but with gain.  So typically a digital signal implementing a DAC converts it twice using a Class D amplifier.  Digital to analog then a ADC in the amp converts into what the Amp can read and then outputs analog.

According to PeachTree

• Coaxial S/PDIF input with native support up to 24-bit/192kHz 
• DAC-less design 

I'm not an engineer or do I play one on TV but I believe (which can easily be full of whatever is in that bucket)  That it truly is a DAC-less design.

here is a youtube reviewer who pretty much specializes in reviewing affordable dacs, reviewing one that is much more expensive

among the talking heads on yt covering hifi gear, this fellow is one of the better ones -- articulate, honest, no nonsense, relatively complete in his disclosure and approach

https://youtu.be/ncZdxm0khTg

danager

... Or will the need for DACs be simply eliminated. I predict that DACs will eventually be used only in the esoteric realm ...

Unless there’s a return to the analog era - which is extremely unlikely - there will be a need to convert digital to analog. So, no, I don’t see a future without DACs.

A DAC converts digital to analog but a class D amp to my understanding does the same thing but with gain.

Most DACs have gain. I’ve never seen a class D amp that could apply Reed-Solomon error correction or follow any of the other digital transmission protocols, unless they had a built-in DAC, of course.

@danager Don't take this personally since, as I said above, the manufacturers are encouraging this misconception.  

But physics and engineering don't support the existence of a digital amplifier. 

indeed you don't need to buy a DAC, since they have incorporated it.  They call this "DACless".  

marketing...much more believable than physics.

Wouldn't it be a great world if we could increase power by manipulating a digital file.  our hard drives would power our house. 

jerry

Borrowed this explanation, paraphrased from threads on ASR.

A class-D amplifier is an analog amplifier. It uses analog circuits, with an analog signal as the input, to turn transistors on and off.

A 1-bit sigma-delta DAC that switches 5V power rails (or whatever they use), is a DAC.

A 1-bit sigma-delta DAC that switches 50V power rails is a digital amplifier. It uses the digital input signal to turn transistors on and off.  To avoid any misconception, there is not a separate DAC chip and class-D amplifier. I assume the digital logic that would be in a DAC chip would need to be in there somewhere, but not the the DAC chip.

Great DACs will always cost more, just like great amps and preamps.

The actual digital to analog conversion of which so much is made is probably the least important component of a DAC.  Great DACs have been made with every type of conversion be they DS chips, R2R chips or discrete, and FGPA chips, which are chips individually programmed, usually partly DS.

Where the expense comes in is in great power supplies and the analog output stages that include I-V conversion, low-pass filters, gain stage and output buffers.   What can easily add up to $5-6000 for a preamp can do the same for a DAC, if you want the very best.

Then there are the things unique to DACs like expensive Xtal clocks and the necessity to totally isolate digital and analog components.

The designer of the DAC I use has written that any competent electrical engineer can make a relatively cheap DAC that will score high with conventional measurements.  But it probably won't sound very good.  There are lots of such DACs around and they sell because people believe their eyes rather than their ears.

Finally I would add that very many DAC purchasers (and many who call themselves critics--and that's easy to do these days because all you need is an iPhone) have never heard music except through loudspeakers.  So they are all too easily satisfied.

@carlsbad2

You’re mistaken - the digital signal is driving the PWM output stage. There’s no DAC because it’s not needed. This is also how the Raspberry Pi onboard audio works. There are details in this article:

https://hackaday.com/2018/07/13/behind-the-pin-how-the-raspberry-pi-gets-its-audio/

To the OP, I think we’re already there. DACs are a mature technology. A well engineered DAC that sells for $100 is going to sound great and possibly better than any other DAC costing more (including thousands of dollars more) in a blind test.

@yage   you are arguing semantics.  The amplification is analog.  You are challenging how it is integrated.

I don't think @yage is arguing semantics, @carlsbad2. The statement you made,  Peachtree GaN1 is a "digital amp".  There is no such thing.  Inside the PT amp, there is a DAC.  My guess is it is a common chip and if you open it up you'll find all the markings polished off of it. , is incorrect, specifically the "There is no such thing." comment.

This is not a distinction on integration. A so-called true digital amplifier will not have a DAC chip followed by an amplifier stage. To me the misnomer is calling it an amplifier at all. It is a DAC that can drive speakers instead of a pair of interconnects. That is the confusion. It does not amplify anything.

Yep. As most folks have pointed out. Low cost DACs will sound like low end DACs and high end DACs will continue to sound way better. It is the nature of advancement.

I have had a fair amount of experience recently with a couple of budget DACs (Schiit Gungnir and Yggdrasil), versus some $5K and several $10K, and a couple of $20K DACs. No comparison. Will likely remain that way for at least a couple decades.

When I bought my first lower tier preamp in 1980 it did not sound anywhere as good as an upper tier preamp. Still true today… but fortunately I can afford a much better preamp today.

I would imagine a Schiit Yggdrasil ($2.5K) sounds better than a 1990 $10K DAC… they all get better. But the lead on high end equipment tends to be ten or twenty years over much lower level stuff. Life is short (at least in my experience) and not worth scrimping.

ASR lost me when they have some Topping DAC rated higher than the Tambaqui in his hierarchy list. Sorry, but I’ll take the Tambaqui all day.

Lower cost DACs have reached a "pretty doggone good" level in the $500 to $1600 range (from say a Geshelli Labs AKM based J2 with user changeable op-amps to a Gustard R26). And hey, in my $12K system, I probably couldn’t tell the difference between the Gustard R26 and the Tambaqui. So, yeah, it is about buying enough DAC but not too much DAC if you get my meaning.

Regarding the so-called misnomer of "digital amp" there are some sites that explain it better saying no, it isn’t a magical digital to analog device but rather a technology from a few years ago that is finally ready for prime time because the use of GaN based devices allows it to work much better and satisfy most audiophiles.

Here’s Peachtree’s blurb about it on there GaN 1 amp:

"First and foremost is the GaN-FET amplifier module. It has several inherent advantages in a power amplifier that even the best MOS-FET designs simply cannot achieve. A GaN-FET power stage provides a precise high-power reproduction of the Class-D PWM signal with extremely high linearity. This linearity eliminates the need for ANY feedback, ultimately allowing for the best possible audio quality providing clean, clear middle and high frequencies and a tight, solid reproduction of low frequencies. GaN-FETs track the complex audio waveforms so much more accurately than MOS-FETs resulting in significantly more transparent and natural sound. The difference is something even a casual listener can hear and appreciate. The GaN 1 is also designed so that it does NOT even require a digital-to-analog-converter (DAC). The digital audio signal at the input directs the amplifier outputs to drive the speakers. Although DACs have continued to improve over the years, there is no DAC better than NO DAC! This concept is not a new one as similar devices often referred to as "Power DACs" made quite a splash in our industry years ago, but this time around, using the concept with GaN-FETs raises the bar to an entirely new level."

Well, maybe. I’d say I’d want to see some measurements just for fun of how that output stacks up against a good DAC feeding a regular good old Class A or AB tube or solid-state amp. But hey, technology can be a wonderful thing as it gets better.

There are Denafrips and other R2R dacs (5k and below) that seem to sound superior to relatively older 20k+ Dacs i’ve heard.

Having said that, the ASR descendants of imbeciles who claim that any dac is only as good as the realtek dac in their PCs should be duct taped and kicked out back to their boomboxes that sit on pizza boxes (speaker stands).

The real question for those of us on the fence a bit is what DAC to invest in at any price point?

Are R2R based DACs the "holy grail" all the YouTube reviewers say they are?

Is that "wide and deep soundstage with natural tonality" they say R2R DACs give real or an artifact of the DAC architecture? In other words, did the sound engineer actually hear that or are the R2R DACs adding it? Not that it wouldn’t be pleasurable or fun, but does that mean that even expensive chip based or FPGA based DACs are always going to give you less?

But some say the chip-based DACs offer better, slamming bass than R2R but R2R offers all that other jazz without the digital harsh edges on notes. At the end of the day do we just have to choose what is most important to us or will DACs achieve a symbiosis offering the best of both worlds? I’m speaking of DACs in the $2K to $5K range.

@yage

"A well engineered DAC that sells for $100 is going to sound great and possibly better than any other DAC costing more (including thousands of dollars more) in a blind test."

Sorry but that is a very sill comment worthy of an ASR minion. To be clear, no one is arguing that the more you spend, the better the Dac, (or any other equipment) is. However your blanket statement is way off beam. The Dacs I have heard that sound the best, in blind tests, despite what minion leader thinks, are expensive. There are some excellent lower priced Dacs as well, but to argue that a Dac built to cost like a cheap poorly put together Topping can sound better than a top end Dac is delusional.

iiWi Reviews….he does an outstanding job at raising these types of questions with current offerings. He’s basically defending the qualities of unique designs with a different approach to the output stage - Lampizator and the use of tubes in the output stage to be exact. I really believe that - when you’re really using your ears - different designs approaches can render limitless possibilities. Circuit design creativity will always bring about change, but also tends to be expensive when offering something more special:

https://youtu.be/ncZdxm0khTg

IHave been into audio a long time and digital sinc3 the mid 80s the technology is finally here but like with any electronics or Loudspeakers parts quality and technologies cost monies.  In my opinion in the $5-7k range is the start of reference quality. I have heard many the T+A 200 dac is the best I have heard at $7k can compete or beat anything at 2x this . I know have 4 others that bought one in our multi state audio get together I am next still have a few $ grand to go
 with digital quality cables, linear power supply to the router,much better Ethernet switch with linear power supply,  all these things count if you want excellent musicality ,being a dedicated Audiophile cost $$ if you truly want your audio to sound at its best , remove all weak links in the chain . 

Mathiasmingus,

On the average a $2,500 DAC in 2023 will never sound as good as a $10,000 DAC in 2023. However, a $2,500 DAC in 2025 may very well sound as good as a 2023 $10,000 DAC. The technology marches on quickly for DACs IMO, and the end result is: where along the development timeline is good enough to be happy.

I currently have a Denafrips Pontus II R2R ladder DAC, that I absolutely love and is a stunning DAC for $1,800. Is it good enough to be my forever DAC? No, eventually I will upgrade this DAC and move it to a second system as I improve other components.

I think the better question here would be this🤒.

Does a $10,000 DAC sound 100x better than a $1,000 DAC? I think we are approaching a time where the lower cost DAC’s are closing the gap. Yes they will never be on par at 100% and it’s nice for a person to have the option to achieve a very good sounding DAC for a reasonable price. This hobby will always have the ones who can and will pay double the price for a 20% to 5% increase in sound. Nothing wrong with that and more power to them. In the end it’s all about enjoying the music!

@mathiasmingus,

I used to be on the equipment ferris wheel, going around and around and around. Maybe equipment roulette is more fitting? This DAC, that DAC, this cartridge, that cartridge, amps, etc. Never quite happy. Once I learned all the nuances of speakers in a room, got appropriate speakers, subs, and fixed my room, then I finally got off the equipment merry go round. All those changes I thought I was making, that never seemed to quite do it, were not doing anything. I have easily spend over $20K on DACs over the last decade. Now every DAC in my main system sounds good. 

Maybe I am the man out in this discussion, but I would rather be happy and confident in my system than yearn for yet another lateral change. One spot I do agree with @melm is that good headphones are more revealing than speakers.

Because of my journey, like the op, I question the value of expensive DACs. They may be different but different is not better, it is different. Maybe that works for you, maybe it does not. It is working for some people here, but I wonder what are they putting a bandaid over.

Never. Quality components cost money. You can hear the difference with every pair of high quality resistors that you substitute. A simple volume control can be improved all the way to $1k parts cost. I know - I did it.

Quality costs. Period.

Whenever I hear amplifier companies touting GaN technology, I think "Fine Carinthian Leather". Purifi and Hypex don't seem to have a problem making amplifiers with almost unbelievable performance with regular transistors. I think many other companies have to use GaN because they don't have the technology to make a good amp without it. GaN is probably easier to market.

It seems I was grossly misunderstood by @othercrazycanuck in a very audiophile way.  Likely I did not express it well.

Revealing or not, I don't advocate listening through earphones to recordings that are engineered to sound like real musical events through loudspeakers.  It creates a surreal experience, not a naturally sounding one.

What I meant, though, is that audiophiles and critics whose experience with musical instruments is almost exclusively through loudspeakers, rather than with unamplified real instruments, are relatively more easily satisfied with cheap components.

Great DACs will always cost more,

I have had a fair amount of experience recently with a couple of budget DACs (Schiit Gungnir and Yggdrasil), versus some $5K and several $10K, and a couple of $20K DACs. No comparison. Will likely remain that way for at least a couple decades.

To be clear, no one is arguing that the more you spend, the better the Dac, (or any other equipment) is.

Really? There are zillions of reviews and when they compare the item to something less expensive it sounds better but not as good as something higher priced. It's the nature of the business in audio and every other industry.

I propose their is a lot of changes on the Horizon, 'AI' is going to infiltrate every area of Industry.

As the Software that supports it, becomes more affordable, the trend will most likely be smaller producers will be buying into it.

With the Former information at hand resulting from AI already having been used for certain applications,

There is certainly going to be a New Reign of Interest for the Audio Devices and the Circuit Designs.

there is really no point arguing

folks, if you think they all sound the same, cheap ones and expensive ones, then that is great, carry on...

others among us have done the work, made the effort, actually bought them, compared them at length, in our own systems, we have our own understanding of how much $ buys how much performance, and we have decided with our wallets -- most serious audiophiles who have invested in their systems have had a lifetime of experience, of buying expensive items -- cars, homes, second homes, art, stocks, not to mention speakers, amplifiers, preamps, turntables ... we have come to trust our judgement, and we usually don’t waste our money on valueless items when we are attentive about those purchases

so it’s all good... $7/gallon box wines, nissan versas, harbor freight tools, all have their buyers... we can all just carry on, enjoy the music, with our own beliefs

anyone here is welcome to pm me, tell me in detail about their systems, their room, their choice of music and so on, i will suggest dacs worth trying (i have tried some 50 dacs -- without exaggeration -- from $200 to $18,000 since early 2020...) - you are welcome to look at my system page, cheers

What comes out of any DAC is voltage/current. This can be measured for noise and distortion, plus frequency response. This is all that can be heard! So all DAC's of comparable measurements will sound alike. There is no special unknown X - factor that differentiates one DAC from another. No "secret sauce" to justify charging five figures for a DAC!

I once saw a sign that said “Price, Quality, Speed. Pick Two.” This was in relation to commissioned work (at an ad agency) but works for so many things. Sure in Audio there’s overlap but often you get what you pay for. 

@jjss49 

I appreciate the link you posted- this man seems pretty down to earth. It will be nice to see/hear his thoughts while moving upward into higher value reviews/comparisons. 

@jasonbourne71

"This is all that can be heard! So all DAC’s of comparable measurements will sound alike. " Wrong forum and very silly comment. Even the minion master does not claim this, (or so he says.)

DACs are the bane of digital.  Once you smash the music up into billions of tiny pieces, no-one can put it together accurately.  Dither and clock error cannot be eliminated.

This is why people spend big bucks on 'better' DACs.  But the pieces still won't fit exactly.

I believe this is true :

I believe that DAC singularity point has been reached already.

I believe this not because i had much experience with high end dac or dac in general...

i believe it because i listen classical music and non amplified music and the timbre experience, the holographic 3_d soundfield i experience now with a low cost dac prove to me that Dac technology is mature... i dont partake ASR opinions about Dac... but they are not completely wrong either about dac... Amplifier is another matter...

i tuned my room then i learned what are the main acoustic concepts and factors and i am able to sense them if they are lacking...

For sure a low cost dac so good it can be will not rival a high end one ... upgrade is always there as possibility... But the basic situation with dac is not the same as 20 years ago at all...

Then there is a difference bettween dacs levels but what matter now is more the amplification stage or speakers or headphone qualities...My headphone now is a TOP one... I hear every recordings difference with details... My K340 goes under 30 hertz.. It gives me more than most speakers... Anyway in classical recording it sound as speakers filling a room and the soundfield is OUT OF MY HEAD , it depend of the recording process, but is not on a plane curved in my head ... Then if my low cost dac was bad in timbre presentation and in localization or in dynamic or transients , i will hear it... it is not...it does not sound artificial... Analytic yes but with no fatiguing digital glare as i experienced in the past ...My dac is so good , it does not exist for my ears...I did not even imagine to invest in a "better" dac...there is better dac but there is also a S.Q. /price ratio scale...

is it possible to upgrade it ? Yes but the diminushing return treshold for dac is there rather soon than late in a way no other components compared...

For sure on a 50,000 bucks system well done in a dedicated acoustic room my low cost dac will present more limitations than a 5,000 bucks dac... But not so much as to be called "trash"....Sorry it is not trash...I paid it 200 bucks...

Anyway for me conventional dac are now overpassed and made obsolete in a way, by "virtual room" technology created by Dr, Choueri BACCH filters... A genius physicist who work as hobby in acoustic design .. Here we reach with his dac without any degradation of timbre ( the reason for that is in the acoustical physics behind his patented filters) experience perfect localization in a room , for any speakers or any headphone... Why did i would buy a 5,000 conventional dac without the BACCH patented filters ? A better color on my timbre ? I dont need that even now...

Conventional dac are obsolete... People dont know it yet...😊

I concur with what it is said here :

 

 

I used to be on the equipment ferris wheel, going around and around and around. Maybe equipment roulette is more fitting? This DAC, that DAC, this cartridge, that cartridge, amps, etc. Never quite happy. Once I learned all the nuances of speakers in a room, got appropriate speakers, subs, and fixed my room, then I finally got off the equipment merry go round. All those changes I thought I was making, that never seemed to quite do it, were not doing anything. I have easily spend over $20K on DACs over the last decade. Now every DAC in my main system sounds good.

Maybe I am the man out in this discussion, but I would rather be happy and confident in my system than yearn for yet another lateral change. One spot I do agree with @melm is that good headphones are more revealing than speakers.

Because of my journey, like the op, I question the value of expensive DACs. They may be different but different is not better, it is different. Maybe that works for you, maybe it does not. It is working for some people here, but I wonder what are they putting a bandaid over.

 

 

 

 

 

You've been reading too much ASR.  Cheap DACs are not outperforming high end DACs.  

Well, some of them are in the ASR tests.  Where can I see an alternate set of objective measurements that shows they aren't?  Or even a well-managed set of subjective comparisons that shows they aren't?  By well-managed, I mean all other components are kept the same; volume levels are matched;  results are repeatable (that is, the same judgement is reached by multiple listeners for multiple music samples).

Given the slurry of related comments, your ears, the room and the winning hard of synergy it’s hard to know for sure about what’s definitive about a lot of gear. Is that hot new 8k DAC paired with an old 2k streamer? Given the certain proclivity of many here to be natural tinkerers or shoppers DAC parity or whatever component is on trail is hard to nail down. Did you wait hundreds of hours (sux months) before deciding? 
Beyound a certain level mining out a whee bit more is an expensive holy grail. 

I believe that DAC singularity point has been reached already.

I believe this not because i had much experience with high end dac or dac in general...

i believe it because i listen classical music and non amplified music and the timbre experience, the holographic 3_d soundfield i experience now with a low cost dac prove to me that Dac technology is mature... i dont partake ASR opinions about Dac... but they are not completely wrong either about dac... Amplifier is another matter...

I agree with @mahgister, including on his standard of comparison.  Within the last 5 years the DAC industry seems to have fully matured so that digital is fully competitive with any other medium.  It has taken over 40 years for this to happen. There are no trade secrets that would keep a great DAC from being made anywhere.   In an analogous😀 way, analog reproduction has continued to progress well after its media production has basically ceased.

There is, though, a caveat that should be applied to this discussion.  It is the the seeming equivalence made between price and quality.  There are great values in some truly great DACs.  IMO that is principally, but not exclusively, in DACs that are made in China.  My own Chinese DAC has been called, by someone in the industry in Europa, a $10M DAC for $3M.  I'm not here to sell any DACs and there are other Chinese DACs about which the same sort of claim can be made when comparing quality of internal parts and quality of manufacture to DACs coming from the US and Europe.  China produces most of the DACs these days.  Most of them are forgettable (except to the ASR crowd).  But some are truly great.

The relatively inexpensive sacs have gotten much better, as has streaming and the associated control software in the past five years. Sadly, dacs which render human voice naturally (and piano, violin etc), have jumped from $10k - 20k and up. That will never change. I’m happy enough using digital to find new music and for casual listening. 

I started with the Denafrips Ares II....great DAC.....then tried Schiit BiFrost II ...more detail but not as musical....Then jumped to Audio Mirror Toubadour SE IV....noticibly better than the previous 2. ( ALL ARE R2R DACS...)....Then got the Aavik $20K class D integrated U-150 with their own proprietary DAC chip....WOW. Spending more $ makes a big difference. DAC's are no different than Amps and pre amps and Speakers.....Better sound comes at a premium.

mahgister
Thank you. SO Many Wanna be engineers here and most of them couldn't draw a simple transistor amplifier if their lives depended on it. Not to mention telling the folks that they should do things that could end up getting them charged wiht Code violations, or getting their houses burnt to the ground due to amateurish blathering.
It doesn't cost 100 time more to build a good DAC. and just because some engineer or company decides they don't have to gouge their customers for fancy wording in same editorial of product review...

I have two CD players (both decode HDCD), one Krell CD250/2 from around 2000 and an Emotiva ERC-3 from around 2015. Also have one SACD player, a Marantz SA KI Ruby from around 2018. I have 3 DACs, a Resolution Audio Quantum from the late 90’s, a PSA PerfectWave Mk II from the mid 2010’s, and a Black Ice Glass FX tube DAC from around 2020. I also have 2 transports, a Jay’s Audio CDT3 Mk III and a PS Audio PW Transport (now retired). All of them are hooked up to my Krell KRC-2 preamp. I’m running a Krell KSA 300S with Thiel CS6 speakers. I can compare these DACs and players very easily.

With my system and my ears all of these players and DACs sound remarkably similar. Sometimes I can hear subtle differences but nothing dramatic. In my experience good quality, well reviewed digital components have a narrow range of sound quality. In other words, they all sound good. I could live long term with any of these pieces but my audio nervosa keeps me buying new stuff. My next purchase is probably going to be an Audio Mirror Tubadour IV SE DAC to see what all the hoopla about NOS ladder DACS is all about. I’m really hoping that it sounds different.

Does anyone on this thread have a link to a documented blind test that shows that listeners can tell DACs apart if they don’t know which one they are listening to? I have never seen such a test and I suspect that I know why.

I recently listened to a $69k DAC is a Boulder system and everything sounded glorious!  But did the DAC sound $67k better than my Pontus ll?  

@8th-note , I participated in an informal -formal DAC blind test around 2000. Can't remember all the models, but we could tell differences. It was not easy, but they were there. I had a Lampizator through here for a while, model 7 if I remember, it had a noticeable sound to it. It was not my thing. I have had a Mola Mola Tambaqui in my system which some claim is one of the best DACs made, but both standalone and fed from the Lyngdorf digital output, could I honestly say it sounded better or even different compared to my other DACs? No, and I really wanted to 🤗. I liked the way it looked. Had a PS audio in system for a few weeks too. Was fun to play with the filters. They sounded different. But then it just felt like work so I left it on the basic one, which was the best anyway.  I am now down to some pretty pedestrian DACs, and don't have any regrets. Did the merry-go-round, and found out the grass was not greener, and just varied with the angle of the sun. I think today you could set up a blind test and pick 10 DACs that all sound different, or 10 DACs that sound all the same. For me, there are enough variables without worrying if my DAC is adding something I don't want or not so I go for the latter, ones that all sound the same. Call me boring. I am inclined to explore these filters again. I hear you can accomplish the effect in Roon. Would save me getting up and hitting buttons.

I recently listened to a $69k DAC is a Boulder system and everything sounded glorious! But did the DAC sound $67k better than my Pontus ll?

Well... put your Pontus in that Boulder system, listen to each dac for a week and let us know!

The following are not a secret to work out a how a Product is costed.

The Design for the Circuit and Topology, along with the Parts chosen are one factor used to create a end price for a mainstream audio device or a commission built design.

Add to this the Aesthetic Design, where depending on the styling, the end design can add a substantial increase to the pricing of the audio device.

How the product is packaged for shipping will also add to the costings.

Using a Supply Chain or dealing Direct as a means to reach a Customer is will also have a cost implication to be calculated.

What is not typically identified is the required Mark Up to cover the Companies Overhead, as a break even calculation.

Some Companies have a Policy of Over/Overs, with the latter being a cost included as a Buffer to cover a period of Bad/Slow Business, unfortunately the Loyal Customer or New Customer will be subsidising the Over/Over.

Then there is the Minimum Profit, There is for some Models a price tag is a close match to the above costing combined, and for other Models a Minimum Profit, that far surpasses the combined sum of all the above costings being created.

With a producer who's Marketing Intention being one that is substantially uplifting a Models Value, and then the same Model being available via a Supplier, that is wed to substantially adding monies to generate their Mark Up. It is very easy to see a product quickly find itself as being in the price range of Tens of Thousands. 

I have experienced through one to one conversation the Types of Mark Up a intermediate Supplier/Sole Importer, who has a very small overhead, is very happy to add to a offered product.

I have also had Bespoke Products built, even a DAC and once the Circuitry, Topology and Parts are identified, a Case can be selected.

The budget for the Parts does seem to have a Cap, 'Pardon the Pun'.

The Budget for the Case is without limitation, the end design can be substantial if the monies are wanted to be spent.

Add the time to be charged by the EE-Designer/Builder, and again a reasonable accuracy to a figure can be produced.

The Bespoke way certainly side steps ludicrous Mark Ups for a sale item.        

Better DAC topology, better power supplies, better clocks, better components, better pre and post analog stages and better input types all have a huge impact on what we universally call a DAC. It could be true that all digital to analog converters sound similar (not the same) but that all the other factors mentioned above make up the huge differences in DACs

A digital to audio converter can be a tiny single chip but a DAC is a combination of far too many ancillary variables to be generalized.

And, yes, the price of the DAC - not so much the "converter" makes for better sub-sytems and better sound.