I don’t go to forums and almost never post. But I feel a need to clarify some things that are pervasive falsehoods.
First off, we sell vintage tubes to anyone except out of the country and guitar amps. There was a time where I wanted to sell new old stock cheaper but only if you bought your gear from us, and that really pissed off a lot of people, except the customer that bought gear here. We stopped that, raised the prices to market price and let her rip.
@Jumia Please send your name, telephone number and email to Info@upscaleaudio.com Tell us who you dealt with. Even if you don’t know a name we have robust records of every customer interaction no matter how they come into our company. I will have the store manager call you. I want to know the exact words that were used.
None of my salespeople are on commission. I learned that when I worked at Rogersound Labs, the best audio store that ever existed. We don’t review what brands they sell, what categories, or if they try to “load you up” on accessories or high-profit stuff when they buy a system.
I will admit one of my salespeople is a PrimaLuna freak, but it comes from his love for his own system and he should remember that doesn’t make it right for everyone. None of my salespeople talk down systems if they want to have a job here. Besides, they are paid an hourly wage. There’s no incentive. Some of them sell 30% as much as others, but I know they are doing other things like troubleshooting and customer service.
I don’t worry about that because they are all amazing in their own ways. Kat is a classically trained musician, acoustics expert, and degreed Recording Engineer. Ash is not just an experienced audiophile with years of managing a store, he’s a degreed Electrical Engineer. Renee was regional sales manager for Dynaudio, Sean was sales trainer for MartinLogan. Josh worked as tech support for Tubestore. I could go on and on. I hire the best I can and pay them better. I'm still understaffed and need more industry experts...not slick rick salespeople.
The only thing I monitor is the percentage of returns. If that number is too high, then two things may be happening. A: They are not asking enough questions to get it right or B: They are allowing sales to occur that should never leave our store. People want to buy the wrong stuff all the time, and we have to be brave enough to tell them it’s a waste of their time and money. I don’t need the business if we are doing them a disservice.
I guess we’re doing something right since we’ve grown double digits every year to become one of the largest dealers in the U.S. Do we make mistakes? Sure. When you are processing 400 orders a week even 1% is too high. Every customer gets sent a survey, and we have 4.87 stars with 9877 reviews.
I do not own any portion of PrimaLuna, but I have been heavily involved since the beginning. Herman van den Dungen is the owner, and we started doing business together in 1999 with the Ah! Tjoeb CD player he built. That player was a true giant killer and we sold thousands of them. Herman distributes some of the biggest names in audio into the Benelux area. In a 2000 visit, he showed me a stack of broken amps from one of the most prestigious names out there and complained how they were not only overpriced but broke over and over. We are kindred spirits and agree that high-end audio has gone off the rails with companies being bought by Private Equity groups that don’t give a sh*t about audio looking to make a buck by raising prices and lower cost of goods sold. You don’t need to be an engineer to see this. Look at the most expensive “reference” products from 20 years ago, adjust for inflation, and look at what they actually sell for now.
Herman is well-connected in Europe, and hired the best engineers, including the former Chief Engineer from Goldmund Switzerland, and he imports the finest parts into the best factory in the world. This isn’t just a business. It’s a cause. We both work on a reasonable but lower margin but get them into the hands of more grateful customers. And again the proof is in the explosive growth and the resale value of PrimaLuna. Recently our original products the ProLogue One and Two have become “collectible” sometimes selling for more than retail on Ebay. It’s one thing to be a collectible 40 years later. It’s another to do it 10-12 years later.
Someone mentioned a comparative video I did on how a competitor’s preamp is built vs a PrimaLuna. I took that down some time ago as I don’t want anyone going out of business. But why you would not want to know facts about parts is baffling. You want to buy an 11 pound preamp for $5k? That’s up to you. But others are grateful to be told how things work and spend money on parts and engineering. Not stories. I would not buy a preamp without looking inside using Google Images and checking the weight.
It was also mentioned about a PrimaLuna EVO 400 being compared to a REF 6 yada yada yada. I’ve been doing this for a living for 45 years and have the hearing of a 12-year-old. I could never make that comparison unless it was an instant A/B and level-matched within .5dB. That’s the first training exercise I do with new employees to teach them about aural memory.
Once you get to a certain level of sound quality the differences are so small they are hard to discern. I am most happy to invite a group of at least six of you together (to make it worthwhile) to come to my store with any EXPENSIVE tube amp, preamp, or integrated, and we’ll do a double-blind LEVEL MATCHED instant comparison. I did just that for some members of the audio society and the results were shocking to some of them.
I’m not saying don’t spend more...if you have the jack, go do it. But don’t tell some dude with fewer resources he can’t own a reference system for less. I just spoke to probably the most-read reviewer in all the magazines and he told me in no uncertain terms the EVO 400 is the best preamp he’s ever had in his system. Period. And his best friend who is an analog guru owns one and feels the same way. Look what Steve Guttenberg said on Youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3yMJQ43ZgE about the EVO 100. He gets it.
It’s fine when we sell big-ticket stuff but I get a bigger thrill selling a newbie a $3k PrimaLuna integrated and seeing the lights come on, or having an employee tell me this is the best job they’ve ever had. I was going to retire at 59. I don't need to work. But I love HiFi and I have people working here since the beginning. I owe them a career that pays well. My wife and I have no kids. Now it’s about giving back to my employees, and their families.
Way too many words but I’d rather not have to post any further.
My system is good for me, if I mentioned what I had and people ripped it, especially an audio salesman, wouldn’t say a word, I would ask about specific amp, speakers, have the salesman move, unhook, hookup, any combination I could think of, then again, and so on. Thank you and just walk out. My speakers were ripped in here a bit, and other forum said they were firewood. A bit insulted, but didn’t care, I like what I have, and their sound. Putting down something is poor sales, I’ve put things down, sure, but never a friends or family members system. Shop elsewhere......
"Who puts 4500 hours on output tubes? That can’t be right......"
You’re right ozzy62! Who does that?
I probably have 6K hours on some vintage 6l6G RCA’s. PL is driving tubes on the low end of the spectrum. I’ve noticed they're finally starting to sound weird.
I called Upscale about some 150 tubes for my AR75SE. Deal made, perfectly matched tubes that now have about 2000 hrs on them. Maybe it was because I called with a very specific item in mind. Maybe it was because he knew the no PL Amp could unseat the AR75. Who knows? But I'll be back in another 2500 hrs or so.
I am new to these forums and have read these posts with interest. My experience with Upscale has been delightful. I have had the on/off relationship with high end audio since I heard Maggies back 40 years ago. This go around ,I purchased PrimaLuna and retubed both the preamp and amp to sync with my system.( No maggies to drive) One damaged Brimar NOS arrived after being delayed in a winter storm. Upscale packs and ships tubes carefully and delivers quickly with priority mail ,however the storms almost 1 week delay brought a wet mess to my doorstep. They ,without any documentation other than my word, issued me a gift certificate for twice the value of the damaged tube. Never any pressure to purchase the PL , however I wanted a valve based system before my ears followed my legs to the ravages of age. There is human variability within every experience. Mine was most enjoyable. Be well...
I’ve made 4 purchases from Upscale. They can be a little pushy at times, but found them to be congenial. Even Kevin, who started grating on my nerves after 2 minutes, but kept conversing with him and found his grating comes from his passion. I have a PL EVO 300 preamp that I bought from Upscale at the end of our conversation, and I love it.
I've bought from Upscale several times, VPI table, Hana cartridge, Sutherland phono pre, and Pro-Ject record vacuum. Hell, just noticed I'm wearing their t-shirt! Each piece first rate, and I'm collecting and listening to albums like I did 40 years ago... but much, much better sound. Don't own any PL, confess to irritation by Kevin's Audio Research shade, but I buy my 6H30s from him which I believe makes him complicit..
@hudo What I wrote (in full) was:"A couple of people have pointed out that the Prima Luna amps are made by Cayin/Spark but did not mention that Cayin/Spark is owned by the Chinese government as part of the large CATIC group. Quite simply, every dollar of profit from your purchase of a Cayin amp goes directly to a government that runs vast re-education camps, oppresses dissent in Xianjiang, Tibet and Hong Kong and promotes the use of slave and forced labor in the country’s workforce." My point was that Cayin equipment is made by the Chinese GOVERNMENT (not private individuals), which uses the money for repression both at home and abroad and also, unquestionably uses forced or slave labor. It is a bit of a myth that everything is made in China these days-plenty of cell phones like Samsung are made entirely in Korea for instance. In any case, all things being equal, I think most of us here would rather not give our money to the Chinese government when there are plenty of good alternatives,both within and outside of the PRC. In this regard, it should be mentioned that Prima Luna products are also manufactured in Chinese government factories but is itself a western owned private concern. Prima Luna, to its credit, has been completely transparent about this, unlike some "European" companies that largely manufacture in China but obscure the fact. These are things are generally not discussed in publications like Stereophile or Absolute Sound, making audio focused websites like this often the only source of information.
Just purchased PrimaLuna EVO400 that was one week old. This is a well built And great sounding amp that anyone can operate. I have been at this hobby for 52 years. Regarding Kevin Deal, he is very knowledgeable. Read and watch the reviews as they are accurate. You can spend your money anywhere.
1) Kevin deal can be a POS, pushy salesman OR the nicest, technically savvy, honest and helpful guy there is. I guess it depends on his mood.
2) Upscale Audio is a reputable, class A+ outfit that sells at honest prices and provides excellent customer support OR its a sales first, customer last outfit that should be avoided. I guess it depends on personal experiences.
3) PL gear is a high end line, robustly built, sanely priced, and better at there price points than higher priced competition OR shouldn't be compared to true high end equipment (albeit more expensive). I guess it depends on your ears.
Personally, I've had good experience with PL. I wanted to buy my PL Dialogue Premium preamp direct from them but Kevin suggested I support my local dealer. I watched Kevin's video on tubes and his description of the differences I would hear between different EL34s were spot on. If you believe the videos, he only sells tubes that have a high reliability and avoids those lines that have a high failure rate. The EL34s I bought from him came matched, tested, and burned in for 72 hrs at now additional cost. I even got a 15% discount offer on future purchases.
As far as my preamp, I couldn't be happier. Lovely, heavy remote and if you dont like the appearance of PL gear, just remove the tube cage and it'll look like almost every other tubed preamp.
My experience is that this dealership led by Kevin it's not really customer friendly The snotty pompass attitude it's not gel with me very well as you can see with many other people As far as primaLuna Nice stuff but overpriced
Based on my long term experience in audio, lots of characters in this field of endeavor. In early days easy for me to take offense at perceived slights, over time I learned to listen and react in a curious manner. Knowledgeable and courteous responses to seemingly arrogant behavior sometimes brings these guys down off high horse and into interesting discussions.
As for Upscale, I have Prima Luna Dialogue Four amp diy mods Takman resistors and various boutique caps, while not my favorite amp, mostly because push pull vs. SET, holds its own against my Art Audio Carissa Sig. Coincident Turbo 845 and custom 300B monoblocks. Nice build quality, mostly point to point. I had issue with bad power tube blew out some resistors on bias board, Upscale head tech worked with me, sent out replacement board pronto. Also, purchased a Musical Fidelity integrated from them, great deal. Never had any issues with anyone I've interfaced with there.
@jumia My guess is that you don't even have a good system and for some reason have decided to have a beef with Upscale Audio. As I stated earlier, just buy product from some other retailer. I am confident that Upscale Audio, and for that matter a host of other fine retailers, will not miss your business. As my older sister used to say when we were children, "just dry up".
In retrospect, I wonder if I should have bought a Cayin instead of the PrimaLuna and saved a bunch but Upscale was pretty good thus far. Also bought a pair of Klipsch.
"How is it possible for someone to call your system "deficient" if they haven't heard it?"
@lostinseattle , the whole reason this forum exists is for members to crap on other's system choices while simultaneously touting the unreachable nirvana that only their personal system can deliver to their golden ears. Welcome to audiogon.
There are many great responses above. Here's my two cents.
Upscale Audio-- This is an A+ Grade dealer. They are awesome to work with and even though they aren't perfect, they do the right things to make it right. For example, I have a PL Dialogue HP integrated. The remote was acting up. I sent it in for service. Well, the pandemic crushed them and everything. They got insanely busy and my silly remote issue got triaged accordingly--to the back of the line, as it should have. But, after 3 months waiting I pinged their service center. They were awesome. They felt so bad that they sent me a brand new remote ($250 value). That's service and commitment. And no one can say they should've done more sooner. In the end, the always make it right.
Kevin Deal-- Personally, I love the guy. He and I don't always agree, but I love his passion. He deserves to be successful. He gets it. He's been doing it since he was 18. Think of that. I don't care that he pushes PL. He should.
Kevin Deal is a good human being. I've bought tons from his shop. I personally loved talking to him on the phone from Chicago. If I was in LA, I'd end up befriending him. Would love to have a cocktail or coffee with the brother.
PL-- Just exactly as folks say above... PL is not the end all be all. But you have to recognize it's damn fine gear and it's priced fairly given the quality and how it's built to last 2 generations. I've built a bunch of stuff over the last 4 years. I've learned a ton. While I don't think PL aims to sound the best, it compromises in its design so that it is a set and forget product. It is a bit more geared toward folks who want to buy McIntosh or Audio Research and linked it to their speakers. It's consumer friendly beyond belief.
I really think PL is perfect for folks who buy mainstream brands of speakers, like Focal, Dynaudio, PSB, B&W, and want to get into tubes. I think you can get more clarity and holographic feel from other products (some priced less), but Kevin Deal and PL deserve serious credit.
PS. Who are these folks that just say stuff like Tannoy is ancient history? My lord---Tannoy's heritage line is pretty special. I think we are living in a binary-thought-process age, meaning folks say things without experience or if something is not their cup of tea they have to dismiss it outright. For example, I'm not likely to buy a Harbeth speaker any time soon but my god do I have respect for what they do.
I bought a PL integrated for a second system years ago from Kevin and thought it was a good value,having owned a complete Jadis system for over 15 years id say Prima Luna is absolutely not high end. .and if you think so i feel your pain
jumia That sounds like my old pal Ken Fisher, the then 1970's B&W and Audire rep for Florida. He would walk into a shop, tell them how and why their stuff sucked, and set up his Audire's and B&W's, then sit back for you to be amazed at the sound. Somehow, he was usually right about the difference, but in addition to alienating the shop personnel with his intro, he would then sit his stinky body (from spending nights in his car after traveling through out Florida with out A/C) and fire up a cigar.
Kevin, like all of us, needs to pay the rent. No surprise he would push Prima Luna.
Personally I like Kevin and he is one of my "go to guys", but any sales person denigrating your current equipment is out of line. I had a gentleman from common sense audio do that to me. I was about to buy a set of speaker drivers off him, but rather than giving me the low down on his drivers, he decided to run his mouth.
I ended up buying a set of drivers elsewhere. Simple. As a customer, you don’t have to deal with a wise ass.
Its ok if you don’t want to do business with Upscale, Kevin or even if you just don’t want Primaluna. There is some better gear out there and there is a whole lot more gear out there that is inferior to Primaluna. It’s very unfair though that you continue trying to paint Upscale with your one-off purportedly poor experience. There are many here who have been happy repeat, multi decade customers of Upscale so chalk it up to you and they just weren’t meant for one another. Primaluna is really good gear (I have Boulder, Audio Note amps presently) and most could live happily ever after with it and been dollars ahead. I have taken the time to compare Primaluna side by side with other high quality gear and Primaluna slots in nicely. Its pricepoint quite frequently delivers much more bang for the buck and the after sale support is exemplary, in the unlikely event it is required.
Your posts (its your thread so its your right I guess) seem to be seeking support and to rally the troops to your cause that you didnt like how you were treated. Thats fine but you are just bashing them repeatedly and the vast majority of Upscale’s customers are happy. Same goes for Primaluna. Kevin supports the magazines through ads, he never misses taking space at audio shows, he chose to sell Primaluna through a traditional dealer channel(rather than direct only, which would have been more profitable) when he didn’t really need to and he actually opened a brick and mortar store AFTER building a very successful business on line.
The Kevin/Upscale bashing is just uncalled for. I kind of miss the old days when it was just a small group of people who irrationally resented Kevin for buying up vast quantities of NOS tubes all over Europe before it was the rage. He traveled, he dug, he was like a detective and had to go far and wide to find them and he did. He then made them available to hobbyist like us rather than us trying to figure out how to access them. He was patient, stayed in his lane and made a fortune reselling them. I recall many posts back in the day slamming him for doing better than the rest of the industry at the time (he did). I have seen his warehouse which rivals a small Costco, I have seen some of his cars and motorcycles some years back and he enjoys his life. He’s earned it. I’m not his accountant nor his financial advisor and he has never said a word about his financials to me nor should he but Kevin could have retired to the French Riviera years ago and never looked back and never had to bring the balance down in his checkbook. But when you see him working with his team, the longevity and convivial relationships on full display toward those with whom he works it is admirable. He also pays better wages and hires great people. They can afford to have a good life working in the audio business. WOW, imagine that! He enjoys his business and if you get down to it, the industry needs Kevin/Upscale more financially than he needs it.
Your continued complaints have now veered firmly into the irrational and "I’ve got a bone to pick" territory. Like Kevin/Upscale or dont but consider moving on from it. Kevin likes Kevin (as do most who know him) and while he will bend over backwards for almost anyone (both business and personal) he won’t take any shyte from anyone. I kindof like that and I certainly respect it.
You still haven't said what gear was disparaged.PrimaLuna is excellent stuff.Doubt you can do better at that price point. You shoulda probably taken their advice.:)
Piece by piece, I’ve purchased almost my entire system from Upscale. I’ve been to their showroom for demos twice (I drove down from Oregon) and also had lengthy phone conversations with both Kevin and Kat. In all instances they were nothing but patient and helpful while I wrung my hands and was indecisive about things. My system is mid-level at best, and i don’t have tons of disposable income to throw at audio. Nonetheless, the staff at Upscale have been tremendously generous with their time. Additionally, on a few occasions their tech staff have walked me through issues I was having with my equipment. On one occasion Kevin himself sent me a fuse overnight at Upscale’s expense to remedy a problem that I myself had caused. I have nothing but good things to say about Upscale’s way of doing business and customer service.
The OP’s description of his interaction does not align with my repeated experience with Upscale audio.
"Quite simply, every dollar of profit from your purchase of a Cayin amp
goes directly to a government that runs vast re-education camps,
oppresses dissent in Tibet and Hong Kong and promotes the use of slave
and forced labor in the country's workforce." Unlike all those dollars you give for your iPhones, laptops, TVs...? Never dealt with Kevin (he is probably the best sales guy in hifi based on YT i watched:), I am in EU, and think Primaluna its hard to beat for that money. For my budget (1500-2000$) I couldn't find any other tube preamp that sounded better. Of course, didn't hear everything that exists, there is a better one probably, that's why we should audition before buying! They have Stereophile Class A awards, and a bunch of other awards for some reason.
I had nothing but good experience dealing with Kevin @ Upscale.
As far as PL goes, I own their DiaLogue Premium (EL34) power amp and it is one of the best in the business. Drives my Maggies very well and the sound is to die for.
I demo’d the Primaluna tube DAC and it went back after a couple of days. Compared to the Chord Qutest (which I owned at the time) and the Denafrips Pontus, it is not as good. I was disappointed with the Primaluna and a lot of Kevin Deal’s videos are just for sales. Who cares if the Primaluna gear is heavy and packed full of bits and pieces, it’s the sound that is important and it wasn’t good to me.
For me it's a matter of approach. "Goodness" is a relative concept and relative goodness can be expressed in two ways - by extolling one’s virtues or denigrating the virtues of others.Given a choice between buying from a company that employs the former tactic vs. the latter I will always choose the former. I remember watching an Upscale Audio video comparing the PrimaLuna Dialogue Premium preamp to an Audio Research LS17SE. Much of the video was spent in running down the 17SE (it weighs less, it looks empty by comparison to the PL, etc.) A company’s choice of the low road in the treatment of their competition will always cause me to question the road they would choose in dealing with their customers.
During my research for an integrated tube amp I stumbled upon PrimaLuna and upscale’s videos, I have to admit they were very convincing and I liked the no bullshit approach. As I live in Switzerland I didn’t buy from upscale, but from a known speaker manufacturer who also distributes them here. I’m very happy with the EVO 400i. Although I have to admit it works better with >90db sensitive speakers which I’m testing right now. I get wide soundstage, beautiful separation even with big orchestras, punchy clear bass, amazing vocals and details. I can only compare it to my previous Rega Elex-R, which sounds also quite good, but it’s in a different league.
I have the PrimaLuna EVO 400 and have never been happier. I talked over several months with one of their sales reps and never felt pressured not did I find him overly critical of my current gear. He even looked up the specs on on of my pieces and said “it was no slouch” and that I could test drive the PrimaLuna to make sure it was an upgrade (30 day return policy I believe). All of his feedback was based on what I said I wanted to achieve to plug some gaps in what I was hearing. I have talked to two other reps there and never felt like I was pressured or steered to a product. I’m fairly sure they are not on commission. I recall watching a video of Kevin Deal saying he was hiring and that they pay a very competitive wage and the staff are not on commission. My experience has been great.
I had a problem with an Evo 400. They promptly sent another. I demoed a AR Reference 75. I liked but the Evo sounded more musical. I kept it. Service and sales staff are very knowledgeable. Since then I have purchased an Aurender, Sutherland Insight, and just recently a Chord TT2. They always include a discount. Great people. OP probably got ahold of Al, he can be a little off. I will always buy Upscale.
Dealt with Kevin a few times. He's ok. Yes he pushes Prima Luna hard, but it is good stuff. He gave me a deal on a set of speakers that was at least 30% off retail. I guess I caught him in a good mood. Most stereo shops won't deal. He will. And he carries top brands.
So how can anyone be comfortable with a primaluna recommendation from uptone? For the price its probably pretty good but other things he sells that cost a hell of alot more may be alot better. Who else sells prima? I might have considered a prima luna preamp with tubes, but i think its ugly.
Kevin is a hot sh#t and a very nice guy. I find him entertaining and enthusiastic. I bought many a tube from him and always received a quality product. The fact he likes Tannoy makes him even better in my book, 😁.
Yes salesman jobs are to sell but there's a right way ( at least IMO) and wrong way. Every go into a car dealership and they ask you what you are looking for including other brands? Well as soon as they put down that Porsche or BMW or whatever I exit the nearest door. If the dealer says yeah nice choices we'll he has my attention. I'm willing to pay for a better experience and give them my business even if it costs a bit more. People at Upscale lost my business a looooong time ago.
end of the day, this pursuit is about the pursuit of music reproduction that thoroughly satisfies the owner/listener
is primaluna the best? well, no... arc is better... yes by a bit ... but there is better than arc still... there is always something better (or at least different, in how the sound/music is portrayed)... the chase can never end, or it can end today - totally up to the listener
like in life, happiness and satisfaction (or the opposite) is a state of mind
if you’re posting here about pl, arc or kevin/upscale ... you probably have a pretty darned satisfying system
companies make gear, need to sell it, salesmen sell, it is what they do... it's up to us when and whether to bite
I've learned to give my business to someone who appreciates it. When working with a dealer I look at it as a long term partnership. I want someone I can trust to help me make the best possible choices. When they take care of me I take care of them with my business AND referrals.
I did some research before I settled on a Mac C2700/Ma275 Tube setup and my second choice was PrimaLuna EVO 400. If you look at the PL circuit board it tells a story. Unalytic Polypropylene Capacitors and independent relay line inputs are quality design features. In essence they spared no expense on the circuit design. My decision to go with the Mac was the C2700 PreAmp has a DAC, MC/MM Phono stage which are not available on the Prima Luna line. As far as Upscale Audio, they’re a good outfit but you have to keep in mind that Kevin Deal is a salesman. He’s a techie and he know’s his stuff but in the end, he’s a salesman.
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