Upgrading to a stand alone DAC

I don’t have a ton of DAC experience but the 2 R2R dacs I’ve had are way more enjoyable to me than any sub 2k Delta Sigma I’ve owned. Currently have a Musician Pegasus 2 I got a great deal on locally. Was not happy with the DAC in my Cambridge streamer. The Musician makes that built in DAC sound broken. I’ve heard great things about the Gustard R26. Sounds like that might be the one to beat sub 2k. 

Yes you will hear a significant improvement at this price point.  There are many budget friendly DAC's which will greatly improve your sound.

i just ordered a holo cyan 2 dac for a little less than your budget. i currently hve a gungnit mb and want a new sound.

You should have a little talk with yourself about what qualities you really prize in music:

-- Are you thrilled by more and more apparent resolution?

-- Do you want deep, percussive bass?

-- Do you listen to classical music and appreciate the sound of mass strings?

-- What is more important in audio-reproduced sound: excitement, or timbre and tgone that are close to the original instruments/voices?

When you go with a standalone DAC, you can certainly get certain sonic benefits compared to a CD player. But you'll get more bang for the buck if you pursue a type of DAC that suits your tastes.

I was an analog guy from way back. Loved turntables, MM cartridges, and vinyl sound. I wrestled with digital audio for decades, never really satisfied with certain aspects of digital sound--namely the artificially emphasized transients, thin/non--existent harmonics, and notes presented as 2D cardboard cutouts, with little of the roundness of tone and spatial cues I hear in music performed IRL.

Until I found NOS (non-overampling) digital, also the very closely related tech, multibit digital. Both are old digital techniques that were long ago superceded by the most cost effective delta-sigma technology. I'm not an expert in what's under the hood of each, but I can tell you that the first time I heard NOS digital, my entire relationship with digital audio changed. I've had 5-6 DACs total, and now have 3 NOS models of differing cost and features. They all sound more musically realistic and lifelike than any delta-sigma DAC.

I have played about with stand alone DACs since I bought my first Arcam Black Box way back when.  I have found that sound quality is not necessarily directly related to price, so auditioning is important.  I am currently using a Moon DAC in one system, a vintage Classe DAC1 in another, and a Hegel in another and they are all very good.

I will add to the Schiit Bifrost 2 recommendation.  I have the same NAD CD player as you and was simply stunned at the improvement made by switching to the Bifrost 2, which I later upgraded to the 2/64.  Better tonal quality of the instruments, better soundstage, better bass definition, and better definition overall.  And, it is only slightly more than half your budget.  A used Yggdrasil at closer to your budget most likely would be a further improvement.

@audioman58 I am active as member of a Audio Group myself and as a result have been better served in the areas of experiencing new to myself Audio Equipment, than I had been in the period was using the commercial world to make such introductions to Audio Equipment.

I am thoroughly satisfied with the experiences had to date.

A very recent experience reintroduced me to the FW update added to the Venus II. The outcome left me with the impression it is very worthy as a recommendation as a SS DAC. It was even a perfect SS Comparison DAC to Valve based CDP's used for Demo's, of which one was the EAR Acute and another a Audio Note CDT.

I would like to be demo'd the Pontus 15 referred to  

If you can get a factory refurbished PS Audio Direct Stream Dac for $1600. That’s a killer Dac at a killer Price! 

The totally revamped Denafrips Pontus 15 

is no longer a slight upgrade like the 12 th anniversary was ,which I heard it side by side, it is a Substantial upgrade 

and it s around $2k. they are running a summer special .maybe a $100 off

my friend bought one and it is reallly good if you like your music a bit warm as this is a R2R dac it is a solid 5%+ better or more with great full bass and deep image depth .I heard it with 175 hours on it and 300 hours is recommended stretch your budget .in our audio club I hear most everything out there if I want to travel  a Best Buy in the $2k range .

A used PS Audio DSD Mk1 is available for ~$1500 used

Border Patrol

I have owned the following DACs in the last 5 years

• Gustard X26 Pro
• Topping D90SE (also the non-MQA version)
• Musetec 005
• Lumin X1 ($15k)
• Schitt Yggdrasil+ OG
• Schitt Yggdrasil+ Less Is More
• Benchmark DAC3B
• Audio Mirror Tubadour SE III

The items I have bolded are on the warmer side. The best of the warmer DACs for my ears was the Yggdrasil+ LIM which can be found used from $1700. I can only give a recommendation on the Yggdrasil+ since I have not heard the older versions of this model, non plus versions.

The best DAC I have owned is the Yggdrasil+ OG. It is not even close as to how much better it is over all the other DACs on my list. This model is not sold anymore but the replacement for it, the Yggdrasil+ More Is Better is supposed to sound somewhat like the OG that I have.

BTW - if anyone wants to sell an Yggdrasil+ OG send me a DM.

@baylinor 

I do have a tube preamp, but it's not real tubelike. It's a Linear Tube Audio MicroZOTL preamp. Solid state amp. 

I have selected cables, etc that work with the R26.

I think it comes down to personal preference. I think they are both good dacs. 

@sls883

I have major amount of absorbers and bass traps in my house of stereo, plus fully carpeted, meaning I prefer Uber detailed equipment. Like no tubes. Been there, done that. Plenty of diffusing too, but the room construction does not react well to r2r. Glad it works for you.

@baylinor

My Gustard R26 is anything but dark. Not all lacking in detail or clarity. Not in my setup, anyway. 

I'm a Gustard guy. I own two X26 pro and waiting for a new A26. From the reviews you will get more clarity with the A26 than the R26 but with none of the digital brightness of the X26 PRO, which is already at a minimum. The A26 sounds like the best of both world and I can't wait to get my hands on it Wednesday. The R26 would definitely be too dark sounding in my house of stereo, gone the r2r route before but not for very long. It's all room and system dependent.

Would I hear a significant difference at this price point?

Aged and untrained ears are not going to hear significant differences.

But, the slightest difference can become quite significant for someone over time and dominate their psyche (most audiophiles might fall in that category).

If your budget is restricted to 1500, the Gustard R26 (the R2R version) is an incredible dac that often goes on sale for right under 1500 dollars...You could rip all your CDs, put them on a NAS and it will stream those files from your NAS, without the need for some extra streamer and cable botching things. Most stand alone dacs won’t offer you that capability..... Err...awful name though i know (rhymes with some bastard munching on custard), but if you can get past the brand name, it’s a good dac.

Would I hear a significant difference at this price point?

Difference in DACs can be huge or very subtle, depending on how resolving the rest of your system (and room) is. 

Chord Qutest is an amazing DAC. Get one used around $1,000 and flip it if you don’t like it. I owned it and several DACs later still hold it in high regard. 
Another good choice is a used Benchmark DAC 3 - slightly more detailed than the Qutest but more analytical/sterile sounding. PS Audio DSD DAC is excellent as well. You can score one in your price range. Smoother more analog sounding but very musical with excellent detail retrieval. 
Stick with a major brand DAC and you should be fine  

Good luck in your search. 

I’d like to second the Bifrost 2 recommendation.  I went from using my NAD C568 CD player to the Bifrost, which I later upgraded to the Bifrost 2/64.  I could definitely tell a difference moving from the internal DAC in the CD player to a a stand-alone DAC.  The upgrade to the 2.64 added a modest improvement.  I can only imagine that the Yggy by Schiit would be yet another step up.

@helomech  +1

Many of these  DACs have very inexpensive IC chips costing less then $1. Cost restraint prevents them from using discreet op/amps.

An inexpensive "Chi-Fi" DAC can be had for as little as $300 with an interchangeable op/amp chip option (Aune X8 with balanced outputs) and then for an additional $100 add a Sparkos ss2590 DISCREET op amp runs in Class A.  For a total of around $400 it's unbelievably good. 

or

(For twice the price) Geshelli socketed J2S and add the Sparkos or Burson Vivid discreet op amp.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Schiit  come out with a socket replaceable DAC op/amp feature in the near future.

Up grades can be had by simply plugging in a new chip instead of buying a whole new DAC.

The money you saved could then go into better speakers yielding a far higher performance level. Heck, maybe you won't even need new speakers!

In terms of your budget, I would second the suggestions for looking at Schiitt DACs.  I have a Gungnir multibit that I like quite a bit. I also have a Mytek Liberty II and I've enjoyed that but the top end has to be tamed a little bit, so depends on system synergy. I also personally don't love the user interface on the Liberty, but I do like its being fully featured with a top of the line chip. 

If they make any difference at all, IMHO digital cables and similar tweaks would be quite secondary in terms of priority - get a well constructed DAC first and then see if you need to worry about that stuff with a later separate budget. 

And I agree that speakers can make the biggest change in a system, and even adjusting their toe-in can have a huge impact. 

soix, not to be too generic, I am looking to increase soundstage and to pull out more details

A better DAC could very well extract more detail (of an incremental level), especially if it’s one that has a very low noise floor. It could also expand perceived soundstage width if it applies noise shaping and/or adds harmonic distortions. The latter can cause other detriments though. BTW, the original Schiit Yggdrasil did exactly that, it had poor linearity and barely achieved 16 bit resolution. That’s how it managed to sound so “different” from other DACs of its era.

Nine times out of ten, the best way to increase soundstage width is to adjust speaker placement and/or add room treatments. At a similar rate, the best way to get more actual detail (as opposed to perceived detail that one only notices because of neglect to match volume when judging the new component against the old) is by way of a speaker upgrade.

That isn’t to say a standalone DAC won’t yield some improvement over your CD player. I am merely suggesting it might not give you the “wow” factor you are likely seeking.

I realize it’s an unpopular sentiment around here, but it’s my belief and experience that digital sources and associated cabling produce some of the lowest ROI in a system. Let’s say one has a max budget of $1500 they can invest in upgrading their system. In my experience, that person would likely be much better off if they were to allocate $300-$500 of that budget toward a objectively transparent “Chi-Fi” DAC, and the rest toward new speakers, or simply allocate the entire sum to new speakers (especially speakers with higher quality drivers). Keep in mind that most dealer-sold speakers under ≈$6K/pair are equipped with very mediocre drivers. I can build a $2K/pair speaker kit from the likes of Madisound that will wipe the floor with many $5K speakers and yield far higher ROI than would any DAC upgrade at any price.

Sorry for the tangent, but hopefully that somewhat explains my stance on this subject and why I believe hobbyists are often heading down the wrong path for achieving their goals. I get why listeners like to “upgrade” stuff like DACs and cables—it’s a much easier endeavor than going out and auditioning speakers and toying with setup once you find the right pair, then selling/shipping the old ones to a new owner. Swapping DACs is nearly effortless by comparison. Unfortunately, the latter is not where most systems have a bottleneck, not by a long shot.

For a reference, the speakers currently in my primary system retail for $11K, and compete favorably against >$15K speakers from other brands. Despite the disparity in price, I have zero doubt my $500 Topping is up to task. Even in my situation, I would rather apply $1500 of disposable income toward saving for a pair of $35K Rockport speakers rather than “upgrading” my DAC.

Almost forgot the requisite disclaimer: “your mileage may vary.” There, now others can hopefully read this post without busting their BP cuffs.

I've have the Topping D90 AKM which is about 5 yr old technology.  I have never felt like this is the component I should upgrade.  Bass, detail, quiet, neutral are what I like.  The display appears to be going bad so I have been looking around. 

Denafrips is not with Vinshine anymore.  I see lots of the brand for sale.  Maybe they just sell more.  I have not tried an R2R DAC so I don't have an opinion. 

Laiv is one I see lots of buzz about.  Positive reviews.  No used yet.

Audio GD was highly regarded but now don't hear anything.

Bel Canto, Border Patrol, Benchmark, Audio Mirror, Audio Research are all established brands with varied sound and design.  Depending on your taste.

Interesting, observations @helotech... may I ask if you have found qualitative differences in streamers or digitally applied cables?  Thank you ... Doug

Mytek, Liberty II... tons of positive reviews online, has balanced out and for $1500 is pretty much impossible to beat. My local guys have a special where you get a set of $300 HiFiman planar headphones with the DAC. It’s a total no-brainer.
Just my opinion. Get to Google’n

I would follow @ghdprentice’s advice and get a Schiit Yggdrasil+. But you can get a new one, the “GSII” or Garage Special II, for just $1699. This differs only from the regular version because it has a first generation sound card and older USB input, using the original Analog Devices DAC chips of the OG version.

if that sounds like gobblygook, go to the website and resd about it - it’s listed in the “last call” section.

There are ENORMOUS differences in the sound of DACS. Just listen! I have the original Yggdrasil GS, and love it!

@helomech and @kingbr interesting to read your recommendation. I have the Eversolo A6 (regular) and got a Topping D70 Octo Pro. I couldn’t figure out if the sound improved or changed for that matter but I do really like the functionality of the Topping- ability to choose All as output so that one flip between 2 amps (via a Fosi Audio amp switcher) and also that it shows the bit rate. Not sure how you both view the D79OP vs the E70V.

at this current juncture am thinking of getting a tube amp- MHDT Orchid. Any views from anyone on that?

Manu

I will absolutely second the Topping E70 Velvet. If this isn't the most underrated DAC in the sub 1K price range, I don't know what is. Helomech is spot on. Save 1K and grab the E70 V....It also has balanced connections...

I have been investigating SS DAC's for quite a period of time and until yesterday had not discovered one used on systems that I am familiar with that has caught my attention like the way a Denafrips Venus II had yesterday at a Bake Off between DAC's and CDP's.

SS DAC's and Valve CDP's were used as comparisons.

I am / have been familiarised over time with all models in use, and these were attached to a New Design 3 Watt Output Tetrode Pre Amp - Tetrode -Pentode Power Amp, with a Speaker unfamiliar to me, with reasonable High Efficiency.

The Venus II has had FW Updates.

In the past the Venus with out a FW update was OK but a big ?mark being present over how long it could be lived with used for extended length replays beyond comparison periods of time allocated.

Yesterday in this system and a follow up Amp in use, a PP 300b, the Venus II proved itself to be a very attractive SS DAC, especially one I would consider experiencing for much longer periods of time in the home system.

The Denafrips Venus II was used  in comparison to other Digital Sources costing up to £6K 

In relation to the Thread, I have seen if being prudent, the Venus II can be found for sale in the US for approx' $2K as a used sale item. This is well worth attempting to recreate as a sale, even with the stretch to the Budget that is allocated. 

According to ASR you can't tell the difference in DACs and the $80 SMSL is better than many higher priced DACs.  I'll admit it's a good sounding DAC for only $80 but the real deal is PSAudio is selling refurbished DirectStream DACs for $1600

Get the Schiit Bifrost and save a few bucks. It's maybe the best DAC for the money currently available. 

I know it's higher than your budget, but the new LAiV Harmony dac @$2700 direct is awesome. If you can make the stretch it would be worth it. Check their website and other written/video reviews. Had mine for a couple of months and it keeps getting better--couldn't ask for much more. Using it with an Aurender A10 streamer and my old prototype transport for 44.1 cds (original Phillips CDM9 pro mechanism)  I used to manufacture dacs in the 90's. Cheers.

If you can find one used, the Denifrips Pontus ll should be in your price range. Over the last few years, I’ve upgraded everything in my system, except my Pontus ll.  Maybe some day, but I’m in no hurry.

All the best.

Forgot to mention, don’t discount the importance of a digital cable and choose with care as it can make a big difference in how much you get out of a DAC. 

Denafrips R2R DACs are hard to beat for the price.

There are a few used Denafrips Pontus II 12th units for sale at the moment.  They all are in your price range and would give you what you are looking for.  You can add the Iris or Hermes DDC later as well which uses the I2S input and increases resolution, soundstage and imaging.

I’d think either the Gustard R26 or the new Denafrips Ares 15th would be a meaningful improvement in all areas.  Best of luck. 

helomech, thank you very much for the time you took to provide some great info!

soix, not to be too generic, I am looking to increase soundstage and to pull out more details

I have a NAD C542 and Marantz CD6006 cd player in boxes. I got a black Friday deal on a Denon DCD-1700NE sacd player and it's a lot better than them. I know you asked about dacs, but it's something to consider.

I have a Gustard R26 dac that I'm using with an Innuos streamer via the USB input. I think it's a great dac and not crazy expensive. I had a SMSL VMV D1SE before it and I much preferred the Gustard.  

Do you really find the E70 Velvet to be better than the Qutest? I have a Qutest but am looking for a DAC with balanced outs. Maybe I should give one a try.

Yes, I wouldn’t have stated that were it not my experience.

I actually owned the Qutest twice. Even though I wasn’t particularly impressed with it the first go around, I bought one again a couple years later with the intent of flipping since I snagged it for a very low price. I put the second example in my system to test all its functions/inputs and to reevaluate the sound quality (though this time with an upgraded linear power supply) and it only confirmed my previous conclusion, that I preferred other, less costly DACs, including the Denafrips Ares II and Marantz HD-DAC1, not to mention the costlier Electrocompaniet, which was my favorite DAC at the time.

The Qutest was rather lean and fatiguing in my systems. It was resolving for sure, but the sound was very 2-dimensional and reminiscent of circa $300 Sabre DACs from years past. That pretty well applied regardless of its filter settings.

The EV0V in contrast, is at least equally resolving but with greater layering/dimensionality, and manages a smoother top end without sacrificing micro details.

I also prefer the E70V to the built-in DAC of the Eversolo DMP-A8, despite the fact both employ the same AKM chip.

Yeah, the Topping isn’t much to look at or behold, but on a pure performance scale, it’s one of the very best sounding digital front ends I’ve encountered. Regardless, trying one through an outlet such as Amazon or Apos is a risk free endeavor, so if you end up disagreeing with my assessment, all you need do is ship it back.

What specific improvements/sound characteristics are you looking for?

Do you really find the E70 Velvet to be better than the Qutest?  I have a Qutest but am looking for a DAC with balanced outs.  Maybe I should give one a try.

I recently sold a Stereophile “Class A” rated DAC that retailed for $3000 just a few years ago, because I prefer the $500 Topping E70 Velvet. The Topping is somewhat unique in that one of its filter modes is actually no filter at all, thus, it somewhat gives the listener two DACs in one—a modern high resolution sound and old-school filterless. In a sense it’s like getting a Chord Qutest (but sounds better than the Chord) and a Denafrips Ares in one chassis that allows you to switch between the two presentations on the fly.

Typically, when it comes to amplification and speakers, it’s my experience that one usually gets what they pay for. When it comes to digital sources though, I’ve concluded the technology has matured to the point that top-tier performance is available at budget prices, and has been for a few years now. You can spend thousands on a DAC or streamer, and subsequently discover it doesn’t sound any better than a $500 unit once you conduct a blind, level-matched A/B comparison.

Usually, when someone here solicits recommendations for the likes of a $10K DAC/streamer/CD player, I don’t bother to mention this reality, because those hobbyists presumably have plenty of disposable income. They are often seeking bragging rights more so than actual performance, even if only on a subconscious level.

However, since you stated a precise budget, I presume you want the best value and are not merely looking to spend that entire $1500. For that reason, my recommendation is to try the Topping E70V and invest the money you save elsewhere in your system or music collection. I have owned many DACs in your stated budget range and some at considerably higher prices (Chord, Line Magnetic, Questyle, and Electrocompaniet to name a few) The Topping easily bests all of them to my ears.

I would consider a used Schiit Yggdrasil. The Yggdrasil is a very good DAC for the ~$2K and performs very well for its class. I highly recommend getting up this far in the hierarchy of DACs to gain a significant sound quality jump.