Tubes becoming hard to get?

As far as I can tell, the common tubes are available you can get a quad of JJ KT 77s for $131 on Amazon today.

@fsonicsmith - are you really saying any tube amp is better than any solid state amp? Any direct drive is better than any belt drive TT? Just trying to show you how you logic is flawed.

I don’t want to be rude but are you on some serious meds? I ask because how could you possibly derive that from anything I did say? Last night and tonight are the two nights of Passover. For members of my Tribe, there is part of the dinner celebration where we recite the story of the four sons, the wise son, the simple son, the wicked son, and the son with no capacity to inquire. Are you son number 2, 3, or 4? If 2 or 4, the answer is "nope, I am not saying that". I am out of this discussion unless it is related to something about the supply of tubes. Assuming it applies, Happy Easter!

@fsonicsmith - are you really saying any tube amp is better than any solid state amp? Any direct drive is better than any belt drive TT? Just trying to show you how you logic is flawed.

 

@jerryg123 - I don't know...Jeff Rowland. Plinius, Boulder....(certainly not McIntosh)

@sokogear

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NYFq7ZJg4c

As to the rest of what you have to say, I appreciate your serious attempt at expressing your thoughts rather than counter-attacking and for that I thank you. But that said, you evidently have a very flawed mental construct embedded in your brain. Different but "equally good" alternatives is the flawed mental construct you have been afflicted with. The mere fact that you subjectively believe they exist does not mean that they exist for anyone else.

Just like belt vs. direct drive, and analogue vs. digital, there is no such thing as one technology is better than the other.

If only I knew where to begin with this gem. I know what you were trying to say but the statement itself is again terribly flawed. Let me first point out that there is far more advanced and complicated technology in digital than in analogue and likewise in direct drive than in belt drive. The beautifully intellectual aspect of the pursuit of audio reproduction is that advanced technology does not always result in better sound. Even many so-called "objectivists" would agree with that. I hope I don’t need to draw this on a napkin for you, but if I do, step back in time to 1984/85 when Sony and Philips jointly came out with "perfect sound forever". At the time it represented the most advanced technology in the history of home audio and yet....it sucked. And as yet another example, take a look at how many people remain happy with the first two or three generations of Class D amps on the market. And within a single type of technology there are versions that are better and more sophisticated than others, i.e. some DAC's are better designed and implemented than others. This is part of "technology" too. 

I am glad to hear you do love vinyl. And yes, no one is going to argue that many times the only way to get a good version of a recording is to get the digital version. But none of that has anything to do with your statement that I labeled a troll.

@sokogear LOL yep, McIntosh, Simaudio have a 600 v2, Pass, LFE, on and on. 

@fsonicsmith  - This whole site if for trolling obviously. Of course there are choices - tubes sound good on good amps as does solid state, "Design issue" is pretty self explanatory - keep the layout and components inside the box from creating noise and distortion. A good design with well executed build quality is most important versus the technology. Also, you should learn how to spell, "maroon".

Although I only play records I've been collecting for 40+ years, I can understand how digital may sound as good or better for some recordings, especially some SACDs with excellent transports/DACs/power supplies. If I was starting out with no records or equipment today, I would probably stream as high a resolution as I could get since the convenience factor is so advantageous.

Just like belt vs. direct drive, and analogue vs. digital, there is no such thing as one technology is better than the other.

Hey @jerryg123  - maybe you just haven't tried a good enough SS amp.

The main supply issue facing audiophiles is for power tubes - especially the big types for which there is no NOS / vintage alternative in quantity. The situation is especially dire for amps designed around KT120 and up (especially 150, 170).

this is true... but as also mentioned, the tube plant making these is indeed running and the tubes will just travel a more meandering route to the find end users needing them (just like russian fishing output, going through china processors on their way to costco...)

... and for users who are using high-spec amps running these tubes, i would guess they can afford an upcharge -- (reminds me of when porsche owners complain about the price of gas... not much pity should be offered, nor expected... 😁)

LOL!!!

I have SS and Tubes and tubes win every time.

I will pay extra as I can afford it.

I also have a 30 year supply of tubes. 

Auctions are wonderful. 

Simple - solid state is the way to go. No hassle, heat, turning on and off, worrying about tubes replacement, lots of power, etc.....You can get just as good SQ - it's not a technology issue, it is a design issue. If the SS design is good, it will sound just as good as a tube amp. They can last decades if treated right.

Simple - solid state is the way to go. No hassle, heat, turning on and off, worrying about tubes replacement, lots of power, etc.....You can get just as good SQ - it's not a technology issue, it is a design issue. If the SS design is good, it will sound just as good as a tube amp. They can last decades if treated right.

Do you have nothing better to do than troll here? You must be correct and correspondingly all of the revered companies and minds behind them devoted to building tubed amps and all of the consumers who prefer them must be wrong. Why not go over to the vinyl forum and tell everyone there who has a concern about cartridge set-up that the easy and correct solution is to ditch vinyl and go to digital because it is "design issue" whatever the heck that means. You sir, are not just a troll but also a buffoon and maroon. With all due respect and my kindest regards mind you. 

Someone should design an IC that can fit inside a tube enclosure, maybe with an LED to give off some faint orange light, including a power transistor - the whole nine yards.  It won't soft clip in an audio amplifier but down the road I think we'll need such a device.  You might be able to program it with rfid to emulate any tube at all with an equivalent pinout.  Then tube-amp owners would just to stock one or two of these devices per socket :-)

And you with all of six posts should also go back to whatever bridge you have been living under. Again, with nothing but respect and my kindest regards. 

Someone should design an IC that can fit inside a tube enclosure, maybe with an LED to give off some faint orange light, including a power transistor - the whole nine yards.  It won't soft clip in an audio amplifier but down the road I think we'll need such a device.  You might be able to program it with rfid to emulate any tube at all with an equivalent pinout.  Then tube-amp owners would just to stock one or two of these devices per socket :-)

Simple - solid state is the way to go. No hassle, heat, turning on and off, worrying about tubes replacement, lots of power, etc.....You can get just as good SQ - it's not a technology issue, it is a design issue. If the SS design is good, it will sound just as good as a tube amp. They can last decades if treated right.

Much to do about nothing. 

To summarize:

• The main supply issue facing audiophiles is for power tubes - especially the big types for which there is no NOS / vintage alternative in quantity. The situation is especially dire for amps designed around KT120 and up (especially 150, 170).
• The Russian New Sensor factory still running, and can still ship tubes to USA but it's going to be much more costly and possibly via an indirect route (i.e. another country).
• If you want to get a preview of what tube prices are likely to be going forward, go to the Electro Harmonix / New Sensor online store. Listed prices are between 2x and 3x more expensive than they were just a couple months ago. For example, KT120 were ~ $50, and now they're listed at $150. Even the tube resellers accused of "gouging" in the past month were selling well BELOW these new prices. 
• Upscale Audio has inventory, but they've halted tube sales as of yesterday (April 14). Other sellers seem to be just about out of the more desirable KT types.
• The big Chinese Shuguang factory was shut down a couple years ago. No word on a replacement factory. No indication China will be able to provide power tubes in scale like they used to, for a long time. JJ itself is way backordered, and many of us would not use JJ power tubes in our amps anyways (bad experiences) - especially JJ tubes from a stressed factory. 
• We had a wonderful several (or so) years where New Sensor was producing great quality tubes at cheap prices. I'm grateful for those times. It might not be coming back. 

Preamp tubes pretty much last forever.  Power amp tubes not at all.  If your power amp tubes are dying and you don't want to spend excessive prices for new tubes, consider putting the tube amp aside and getting a good solid state power amp until tube prices come back down.

I very much favor the vintage 200 wpc Sumo Andromeda amps, which typically run about $900 on the used market.

There are 3 major tube suppliers, one in russia (electro harmonix- now closed), 

I believe this to be wrong. The Shuguang factory in China closed. The New Sensor factory in Russia has not closed. The New Sensor factory instead has no good way to get it's tubes out of Russia and into supply channels. 

No. 
They’re just playing. 

There still seem to be lots of NOS tubes around. And I imagine that other factories will ramp up out of necessity. I'm not sure if there's a need to raise prices if you're not buying them wholesale at a higher price. 

@immatthewj, mostly eBay, also Brent Jessee. I look for 12ax7s and 6l6cg most

y vintage. However, I just bought almost new 3, 12ax7eh electroharmonix for $40, just because they seemed like a great deal.  I’m always watching prices and really haven’t seen too many price increases or reduction in inventory. Maybe on new stock Chinese or Russian, but the inventory of vintage RCA black plates, telefunken ( just bought 4 red tips for $300) amperex ( bought 2 medical for $300) and what I’m interested in seems ok. Hope this helps. 

There are 3 major tube suppliers, one in russia (electro harmonix- now closed), one in slavic republic, (J+J) (still open) and one in China (still open).  There are couple small ones like Western Electric in the US (they build one or two hi fi tubes and that's it).  12 AX7s' in some form are important for audio in guitar amps, pro audio and more.   I expect tube costs will skyrocket and new designs using tubes will get put on the shelf. 

Demand for some of these tubes is so small that it's not enough to justify the product development costs much less a provide enough revenue to a business to run on..   The obscure tubes were being satisfied by NOS supplies, but now that is drying up.   

Its going to be a issue.

Brad

I just had to order some new 6550's for one of my amps.  I paid about $40 each in 2020.  Now they are $82 each.  And only a few sellers had any.

@dinov  where are you getting your tubes and which ones have you priced?

I haven’t seen any problems with tube supply’s or prices?

Hmmm.  Still using my tubes purchased almost 20 years ago.  Fools rush in.

+1 @jerryg123 

At this point this is old news really. I use tube amps and mostly NOS GE 6SN7GTBs (four of them in my preamp, one in my power amp) of which I have plenty, and just recently bought a back-up pair of KT66s (I have a stash of various tubes to last for years) for my little single ended amp. I just rested my aforementioned tube power amp to try a "tubeless but you’d never know it" Pass XA25...still breaking that thing in but so far it’s astonishingly good...may be resting my tube power amp for a while, thus sacrificing a chunk of my tube cred and avoiding any Russian tube quandry...Oh well. 

I don’t think we have a reason to worry. Capitalism will gladly fill out any demand with replacement products, the only thing needed is demand and smell of profits. 
Even more, the new tube technology is coming. Check it out:

 

I don’t use KT90,99,120,150 or 170.

I haven’t had any issues finding valves. The last quad of GL KT88 was in December of 2021. I paid 220.00 for a 5% match vs 10%. The last I looked they were 400.00 + for 10% 800.00 for 5%.

Upscale might say 20% on some valves, ask about popular/expensive quads like Golden Lyon, Ruby, PSVANE, ANY NOS US, British, Holland, German or French Valve. 100% is more like it.

The rest are Russian or Chinese for the most part.

I love it when the same tubes have been for sale on EBay for 10 years. Mcintosh set of Russian or Chinese tubes for 2-3,000.00 dollars. They actually cost about 150.00 to buy separate without the box in 2020. I think the BOX was more expensive.

India has a production plant or two. I understand Turkey might get into the tube business. Italy has always had limited production. Belgium and Ireland both have inviting work forces and better spirits, from my understanding.

My hats off to Ukraine, now head for Moscow, while it’s still spring. When a country lets a murderer run their country and he threatens to NUKE people, he has to go. The Russians need to do the right thing. Poison the guy. I hope they have to bury him in a 1 foot thick lead box. Man they sure come up with some doozies in Russia. Steven Seagal, is he nuts?

I only use small preamp type tubes that last thousands of hours...such as 12ax7, 12au7, and 5751's...which I have plenty of in reserve as they were all bought several years ago. So not really effected by it.

Slovakian and Chinese manufacturers will fill the void, nature abhors a vacuum..

Yes all are right price is increasing but made in india tubes are still cheaper than others but it's also increase approximately 20 to 30 percentage 

Try ‘The Tube Store’ (the tube store.com) then.  Prices and availability seem OK 

"Or just responding to market conditions based on future supply issues and increased costs....just like gasoline. "

We are paying Scarcity Rent in economics term. 😉

@lowrider57 ​​​​@ghdprentice thank you. 
I do think that the folks at upscale are doing the right thing. We call it throttling or allocation. 
 

this way it weeds the bogart hoarders out.

 

This will pass and mot of the tube companies are US owned.

May head back to help in July. Such great people.

 

@sbrogdon

👍🇺🇦🙏

If i understand, Western Electric Co create in web page a survey to what type the popular tubes audiophile needs and they will study an options to made tubes in USA and the prices but it will see soon.

I ordered some tubes from Ukraine. A lot actually. I might never get them. They seem to be stuck in Kiiv. I don't care. If someone there, who was into audio, can now get his family closer to the border, that is good enough for me. If I get the tubes, even better, but I'm not holding my breath.

Why not take a chance? I already miss the world the way it was.

Steve

I haven't had any problems.  Still using original tubes.  They are run very conservatively by design.  I don't expect to change tubes before I die.  So it's not an issue.

@jerryg123

 

Respect to all of your family participating in supporting the Ukraine! My heart goes out to the civilians and the brave soldiers fighting for their country. I have contributed to the humanitarian efforts, although I wish I could fund a antitank missile, this is such a horrible act. I am so disappointed that once again Europe is plunged into war.

 

Ok, tubes. This is supply and demand. If a distributor like Upscale does not raise prices, then folks that actually do not need them will buy them expecting to sell them at a profit and Upscale will not have any to sell to their customers. Simple. Long term, if Russia continues on its current course then Tube manufactures will move to the US or elsewhere to fill the demand. My understanding is that the manufacturer of KT120… etc is an American company… they will move it home.

@jerryg123 

All the best to you and your family. And much love and respect to those fighting this war. I'm very close to a family from Ukraine, such wonderful people.

Well I have a great stock of KT170, KT150’s, KT120,s and KT88 and I bought them all before one bomb fell on Ukraine.

With family in Ukraine and knowing of the build up on the border I placed my orders so I would not be a victim of the hoarders. We also severed our joint ventures in Russia before the bullets flew.

We got our family out with exception of the men in the family that stayed to fight.

I am only using my AH X200 on the weekends and I am conserving tubes. I have a very nice Heed Elixir I run during the week.

So most of the wife’s family is safe and we have been back to help with humanitarian efforts in Hungary and Poland. Yes they have Russian tubes there for now.

 

 

Look at the front page article in today's Wall Street Journal. Guitarists and audiophiles are raiding and hoarding the good tubes. Neal

Another company taking advantage of the situation

That’s a joke. A 25% increase is way WAY below market demands right now. Upscale has had to limit customers to 4 power tubes each 180 DAYS to keep from selling out instantly. They’re trying to help spread the tubes out to more amps.

Even a 100% price increase right now will sell out in many cases for the more popular types. Viva tubes increased prices a lot more than Upscale, and even they're running low on stock and having to limit customers now. 

I’d happily a healthy premium on Gold Lion KT88 if I could find them. It’s been a bad time to change my favorite power tube from KT120.

A perfect world.

Always keep spares. Ebay sellers are not worried and are happy.

Another company taking advantage of the situation

Or just responding to market conditions based on future supply issues and increased costs....just like gasoline. 

@rsf507 

Another company taking advantage of the situation

Uncle Kevin says it is only to discourage hoarding.  LOL. 

25% price increase at upscale

Another company taking advantage of the situation

Is the timing perfect for new SS (GAN) amps or what? :-) 

here's a little song i wrote, ain't got no tubes, ain't got no boat. don't worry. be happy...

don't worry be happy