Townshend Springs under Speakers

The Sistrum supports in my system did two things that were easy to hear immediately, Focus of individual voices and instruments, which I thought was already very good improved noticeably. The other great improvement was, as Charles and tvad noted, the speakers disappear as sources of sound. My speakers are big boxes like yours Charles, although they're a lot wider, so that was quite a feat. 

The Star Sound Apprentice platforms have provided those similar results in my audio system. The effect is as if the speakers disappeared in my room. I think it is fair to conclude that both products get the job done exceptionally well. I don’t believe that one product/solution has to be denigrated in order to support the other. Both can coexist and be excellent choices.
Charles

@charels1dad, I concur with every point. Excellent post.

Have owned both Sistrum and Townshend platforms, although in different systems with different loudspeakers.

@mglik,
The Star Sound Apprentice platforms have provided those similar results in my audio system. The effect is as if the speakers disappeared in my room. I think it is fair to conclude that both products get the job done exceptionally well. I don’t believe that one product/solution has to be denigrated in order to support the other. Both can coexist and be excellent choices.
Charles

Never heard Star Sound. Townshend Podiums under my speakers has been among the biggest transformations. Maybe the biggest.
The music sounds so much more “real”. Everything that has been said about them is true. 

Silly comments clearthinker, but I think you know that.

Townsend rules!

Thanks tweak1, Nobsound are indeed an absolute bargain. 

Yes, I believe geoffkait, owner of Machina Dynamica was the first to advocate springs long before anyone else on this forum...

@millercarbon

+1 on the nobsound. Not knowing it specifically, I bought what appears to be an identical version on Amazon. For years Ive been using machina dynamica springs under everything but my speakers.


First I bought 2 sets, put one under my Voyager GaN amp to eliminate the squishy rubber feet. As can be expected, the sound was more focused and faster. I couldn't decide between the Oppo 105 with aftermarket Linear Power Module/Supply or my Audio Alchemy DDP-1 dac/pre. I also have the PS 5. I chose the DDP-1 and could easily hear the improvement, and so ordered 5 more sets. I received 3 with 2 are on their way. I put 3 under the Oppo, one directly under the spinner and one directly under the toroid with a third on the far right for balance. Another nice improvement. This left me with 9. I placed 3 under the PS 5 and was happily surprised. The final 6 were divided equally under the 2 large outboard XOs from my Emerald Physics 3.4s. The 2 sets not yet here will replace the Harbor Freight dollys under each speaker. Once all were in position the overall sound is more organic; @ $26/set = $130 and free shipping, IMO they qualify as an absolute bagain

hth

No slinkys under my speakers, just blue tac as an interface between speaker and stand. Spiked to solid concrete through carpet. Stands filled with atabites. Sounds good to me.

The bargain for the money is Nobsound, at $30 dirt cheap but better than most anything else until you get to Townshend.

When I was first trying to integrate my subs I had the gain way up and of course they excited my suspended floor. I ended up buying the Auralux (sp?) SubDude and it made a big difference. Of course getting the subs integrated better and turning the gain down did wonders too! In the context of the topic what does anyone think about using them for floorstanders under spikes? It seems that it would be an effective decoupler for a teentsie fraction of the cost.

At least I did give you the benefit of the doubt. Oh well.

I agree with both Roxy and Charles there should be a direct comparison. Tom

"I do still thing that the Sistrums are pretty amazing"

@roxy54 they are for certain. A straightforward direct comparison between them and the Townshend would be informative.
Charles

If you look at the Townshend videos on You Tube there is one in a convention hall..and after they suddenly Cutaway from Jumping Jack Flash they show the speakers side by side..One speaker on the podium and one on points...there is 0 noise on either display. No seismic noise that day?

Here is one, where you can clearly see there is a low noise level on both, maybe slightly more on the spiked speakers on the left. https://youtu.be/7ew4dRUEm-k?t=30 But that is not the whole point. As has been stated many, many times, the main benefit is to remove ringing with the floor thereby allowing the speaker cabinet vibrations to dissipate out much faster for the cleaner clearer sound everyone reports hearing. Watch the video it is perfectly clear.

Here’s another one https://youtu.be/BOPXJDdwtk4?t=27 You can see quite clearly there is some background noise on both speakers, just a little more on the spiked one on the left. You can even see the one on the left make a little blip before Max stomps. just from moving his foot getting ready to stomp.

There’s a whole bunch of these. If you have one showing dead flat make-believe like you are saying please provide the link so we can check it out. I would sure like to see it.

This is so clear and easy to understand, especially for a guy as otherwise sharp as yourself, I kind of want to think you are trolling.

One thing I will say, the name Seismic put me off for a long time. Yes there are seismic vibrations and yes they probably do have some impact and yes these things are designed to filter out those sorts of vibrations. But the name is misleading in the sense the seismic part is a sideshow. The real benefit is eliminating ringing. That is what really accounts for all the great improvement everyone is hearing. Maybe that is what is throwing you off the way it did me?

They say the same about the Sistrum products..I have been trying for years to have a qualified reviewer do a shootout between racks and or  platforms..The only one that came even close was Norm Luttbeg of Stereotimes..He ran the gambit with many including active laboratory platforms that were 5k each then Stillpoints and then the Sistrum platforms. Tom

But as owners consistently say, we love how they make our systems sound. What else is more important here? 

If you look at the Townshend videos on You Tube there is one in a convention hall..and after they suddenly Cutaway from Jumping Jack Flash they show the speakers side by side..One speaker on the podium and one on points...there is 0 noise on either display. No seismic noise that day? No mechanical noise that day? No noise from HVAC no trains or planes or automobiles that day in a convention hall in a big city in England??? Wouldn’t there be environmental noise on the display at idle..so buy a $1400 platform that protects you from none of those occurrences..Now it may offer you a noise solution from playing rugby or basketball in your audio room.

The points appear to be generic like those that come packed with some Klipsch speakers compared to a $1400 platform..Great story telling and editing but they missed the 1 eye found.
Tom

Yes they are and keep enjoying them! Just different flavors of great tasting ice cream. Often comes down to personal preference and system/room synergy. Many variables as we know. 

grannyring,
I agree with your assessment of the performance of the Sistrum platforms which I also use. I would be curious to hear the Townshend platforms, but right now, that's a bridge too far. I do still thing that the Sistrums are pretty amazing.

Springs and floppy things allow the cabinet to retain information and resonance far to long.

Actually no, that is not what happens. This has been explained so clearly so many times it is hard to see this as anything resembling trying to understand. But for those who actually are trying to understand:  

Without springs the cabinet causes the floor to vibrate. This vibration manifests as ringing that can be seen on a seismograph. It also manifests as a blurring of image focus and harmonic coloring that can be heard.   

Springs break this mechanical connection eliminating the ringing with the floor. Townshend Podiums, by adding precision damping also eliminate harmonic and tonal coloration. Both effects are easily heard. This is not at all subtle. This happens regardless of the floor material. Concrete, wood, does not matter. Same thing. This happens when the floor is solid, and when the floor is flimsy and bouncy.    

So putting speakers on springs actually allows cabinet vibrations to dissipate faster and cleaner- especially when the springs are damped as in Townshend Podiums.   

The huge improvement in sound quality everyone hears is perfectly explained once you properly understand what is going on.

Putting the speak on a plate of steel……would seem to make more sense to me. 

They call them Sound Anchor Stands

I did not, but could be interesting.  I have the Townshend Pod products only. 

What if you used both products at the same time?

Well I have owned the Star Sound Sistrum and Townshend Pod products and have heard first hand the differences each approach has to the resulting sound. Speakers on a hard wood floor with crawl space under the house. The Star Sound Sistrum platforms were great. They tended to spotlight the highs and upper mids while speeding up and tightening the bass. Improved focus and inner detail. Less blurring of massed instruments.

The Townshend Pod products removed noise and made the music sound much more at ease and enjoyable. More natural if you will. They made the music more fun to listen to in my experience. That is how I experienced both methods of “isolation”. Just my experience and I realize this topic is more complex than my singular experience.

If it was cabinet resonance, then a board green glued to the bottom of the case might help.
I would like to see some evidence that they reduce HD.
Putting the speak on a plate of steel or rock would seem to make more sense to me. 

tomic601..

Springs and floppy things allow the cabinet to retain information and resonance far to long. The cabinet is a passive radiator that transmits sound into the air along with the intended signal. The cabinet motion also becomes a part of the voice coil motion. The voice coil drives the cone but also has to overcome the force of the cabinet in motion even more so when suspended on springs or floppy thing mounted.  More to follow.  Tom

tweak……and so few are time aligned and phase correct…so springs “ work “ for them. The narrow focus of tge tgread should have applied… alas..

Mike - i would also trade the high end gear and sonics to relive my young adulthood… 

https://www.designisthis.com/blog/images/uploads/2012/02/Origin-live-astute-hanging-loudspeakers.jpg

said this many times before.

If you have a time aligned speaker and the cabinet is allowed to move then the cabinet motion will be at 1 or more frequencies greater than the motion of the tweeter. As that happens the speaker will never be in true and proper alignment...

In the 80s Polk Audio had a Time Aligned speaker and demonstrated with a Laser Interferometer that when this speaker was unsecured the tweeter was never in alignment with the woofer. I cannot find the printed ad..

Tom

And now this..from the Wayback machine..same as it ever was

11-02-2016 4:57pm
When energy is applied to soft spongy materials that are used in combinations with springs supporting a loudspeaker, everything supported remains in a state of continuous motion. By doing so, this negates the operational efficiency of a voice coil as the coil itself becomes subjected to this secondary flexing. Ultimately, the voice coil drives the entire speaker assembly and has to overcome the added inertia presented by the motion of the springs and soft materials upon which the cabinet rests. The constant motion and flexing with this type of isolation device manifests inefficiencies within the operational design of the voice coil. Tom. Star Sound Technologies

from someone of like mind... Me..

12-18-2016 Springs add another boundary layer and introduce more interfering energy.  The motion artifacts of the springs and resulting inertia when driven by the voice coil of a speaker need to be overcome by the voice coil. If you suspend all speakers from either above or below you have the same retention of interfering energy. And so is your sound.  Tom

Alarmingly well...  if a touch bass lite 

sure; the year was 1976, the speakers were Bose 901’s.

https://www.tonepublications.com/review/we-review-the-bose-901/

my daughter was 9 months old and crawling all over, so i hung them from the ceiling. hanging 901’s was not unheard of. 901’s had their attributes, and their shortcomings too. but for my lifestyle at that time it was perfect.

in the context of today’s better speakers, the 901’s sucked big time. but for me i was having the time of my life. wish i was "right there" again.

How did that work out?
Ah, I now see edgyhassle is currently using a similar system...

@thecarpathian 

“ Anyone ever try suspending their speakers from the ceiling “

Yup... I had at one time an array of four , then six ,  Quad ESL57 statics 
suspended on steel cables from the ceiling beams of our converted warehouse apartment in Tobacco Dock London :0}

Anyone ever try suspending their speakers from the ceiling or used a similar isolation system?
Why don’t I try it for myself, you ask?
Because at this time it isn’t that important in my life to.
That is why I’m being lazy and asking others if they had...

@nonoise

I just replaced 6 sets of Geoff's springs with these to much better result

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08MT1R4KZ?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2_dt_b_product_details

Does promotion of brand name products, e.g., Townshend Springs qualify as “spam,” and shouldn’t such posts be removed by the moderator.

Geez, the only way to know is to try them in your own system.  On my suspended wood floor I tried (1) no spikes (2) spikes (3) two inch slabs of flagstone with spikes (4) Herbies large gliders (5) Townshend Podiums.  The Townshend Podiums worked the best (tighter bass, opened the soundstage and more depth, better placement and articulation of instruments).  They are an essential component in my system.  No "boiing" issues.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2r33aii5K0

Everything distorts richopp...just in a different way.

I don't really have an issue with all this fussing with boxes, but wouldn't it be better to just get a pair of Magneplaners and skip all that?

You get another set of issues...90% room placement...the rest is your hardware.

Boxes distort.  All this "fixing" can be avoided, however!

Cheers!

Oldhvymec
Do you know any pretty decent jazz musicians at the time after their passing...?

BOOIIIIIINGG!
This must be the most repeated topic here.  No need to keep repeating, the answer is simple:

If your floor is insufficiently rigid then make it rigid or change rooms, or houses.
If your floor goes boiing, adding more boiing with springs will just make matters worse = boiing boiing.

Well a great speaker may not have such noble beginnings as some of the above. Here we go. Three guys setting around talking one night.
One a speaker manufacture
One an Amp designer
One a master cabinet maker

The amp designer, who doesn't care for speaker design at all, sketches a speaker design on a napkin that he know will work VERY well, BUT has never seen anyone tackle the wide baffle issues with any success.
That was  James Bongiorno. He hands the sketch to Brian Cheney of VMPS. It's a new design for neo 8 planars (Monsoon), Strathearns, BG ribbons, any and every type of narrow planar or ribbon design. Dorn Dibble who is there sharing the single malt is asked if he could do it he says yes I need some tools..

The Elixir was born, HDF front baffle coupled to a MDF bass chamber, and only 16 pairs ever produced, It's an amazing story of 3 drunk fellow designing a speaker one night on a drink napkin.
Pimp Daddy, Mr. Bass and "The Dibbs". 

BTW all were pretty decent jazz musicians at the time before their passing..

I liked him.... Didn't talk much. I watched everything he did.. Man he was fast..

Regards

I love my Townsend Bars, wouldn't trade them in for anything else. Couldn't tell you how they work, they just do. My 125 lb speakers float in the air, the sway when touched. Everything comes into equilibrium sound-wise for me. 

The logic of springs is an easy one to wrap my head around.

Im building some prototype speakers and getting close to sealing them up. Once I close them up and weigh the complete unit (and find the center of gravity for them) I’ll be sourcing the “correct” springs for them and integrating those directly to the speakers bases.

Nominal cost for something that benefits the end user immensely!