I was very interested, especially with all the talk. I brought the subject up on the Vandersteen forum site, and Richard Vandersteen himself weighed in. As with everything, nothing is perfect in all circumstances. If the floor is wobbly, springs can work, if the speaker is on solid ground, 3 spikes is preferred.
There's also these footers from Lehmann Audio. Just read about them a day ago. Something about string suspension and the speakers would literally rock if pushed but the benefits were very positive.
The best part is they only go for €200 (about $236.18) for a set of 4. That's in the EU so there should be a price hike stateside, but worth looking into.
All the best, Nonoise
This feet seems great!
I used springs but the description of the audible effect fill ,y own experience....
This is a sign that these feet like some other products(springs) are probably very good....
There's also these footers from Lehmann Audio. Just read about them a day ago. Something about string suspension and the speakers would literally rock if pushed but the benefits were very positive.
The best part is they only go for €200 (about $236.18) for a set of 4. That's in the EU so there should be a price hike stateside, but worth looking into.
..in my Vandersteen 5A’s, the 2 12 inch woofers are attached at their perimeter (facing each other) to minimize enclosure vibrations. The opening of the woofer enclosure faces downward....the other 3 speakers are in their separate enclosures...very heavy, and time aligned.
OK>>OK....... just to test the spring theory, I will order Nobsound devices and try them under my amp/pre/CD, player to hear if indeed springs are the good route. I'll report back in a couple of weeks when done. Anxious to evaluate
F2 is what they race to warm the crowd up for F1. The Townshend equivalent of F2 is Isolde. What I like about F1 we have a once in a lifetime battle of the greats in Hamilton vs Verstappen. The other thing I like about F1 is how it is so fast and responsive it hardly even seems fast and responsive. It seems almost not to be there at all. The F1 cables I mean. Mercedes and Red Bull make so much noise you know they are there.
I corresponded with John from Townshend and ordered up the Podiums and the speaker cables. He suggested that the component Pods can be added in later as needed.
Expect them to arrive in 10-14 days. I'll keep the group posted with updates.
I agree with MC, that properly loaded and damped springs are likely to be the sonically best solution given your description of the structure you reside in. My situation is a bit different from most here in that I use individual springs under my speakers and subs, instead of the Townshend or Nobsound products. However, I went through quite a learning curve and much trial and error before finding the appropriately sized springs. I figured out how to damp the springs, and it helps that all my speakers are supported on very stiff, solid, and heavy Sound Anchor stands. In addition to removing the guesswork, the Townshend pods and podiums may be better damped and have the ability to be preloaded.
The greatest improvement for me was Podiums under the speakers. I then placed the pods under my tube pre amp replacing the HRS footers. Speakers first in my opinion.
Thanks, MC! I’ll probably start then with the pods under the components. I’ve only had intermittent luck with my DIY rollerblocks, and I’m thinking that success with these devices is hostage to the weight/pull exerted by heavy power cords. Trying to neutralize cable pull with Furutech Booster clamps seemed to defeat the value of the rollerblocks and I began to suspect that it was best to use a very light touch with the Furutech clamps when paired with ball-bearing isolation. I take it that this might be less of an issue when using 4 Townshend Pods (as opposed to 3 rolllerblocks) but was also wondering if the "clamp" strategy of the Furutech Boosters was itself a dubious solution to cable vibration that needed to be addressed as well.
I live in an older, urban apartment building from the 1930s. Top floor of a 3-story building with wood floors that are a bit creaky and not well insulated. I can hear my downstairs neighbor sneeze.
Good choices, I have them all, can't go wrong. Podiums typically have the biggest impact of all. Even people who already had pretty good stuff like Gaia still had big improvement going to Podiums. So I would think this will be about like that.
Pods under components are very similar to Podiums under speakers, and they cost a lot less. It is kind of hard to rate these things but for the cost of one set of Podiums you get enough Pods to do about 5 or 6 components, which all together adds up to about the same total improvement, if you follow me.
F1 are pretty impressive too though. Ozzy likes his better than any and he has tried a lot more high end cables than me.
With all of these, the way they improve instrument separation is they eliminate a lot of resonant behavior that colors tone and alters each instruments individual acoustic signature or timbre. This makes each instrument sound so much more real and natural, this lets you hear each one a lot more clearly, and so they naturally appear more distinct or separate from each other on the stage.
This is how I hear it at any rate. Because pretty much everything has these tone-shifting resonances it is easy to say they will all be better. But without hearing what you have, which one to prioritize, is pure guesswork. My hunch would be Podiums, Pods, F1. But it is likely a case of six of one, half a dozen of the other.
It is helpful that you have taken the time to post your system. So folks here can give the best answers to your question, it would also be helpful to know about the floor the speakers are supported on - specifically suspended floor over wooden joists, concrete slab on grade, or something else, and also whether there is carpet or not.
Thank you @mitch2 and @MC for your thoughtful responses. I really appreciate your assistance!
I believe that the original Verity speaker lines came with spikes, but a few years ago, Verity designed this platform and included it as standard equipment (at least on the higher-end models). I purchased my Amadis second-hard and the platforms came with it, so there's no additional outlay of money as I own it now. The question is whether I want to trust the default engineered isolation bases or experiment with other platform options.
Earlier in the thread, @grannyring mentioned that he had achieved good results from Star Sound platforms, particularly in the area of instrument separation. This is of great interest to me, as I listen to a lot of the major symphonic orchestras from the 1950s-70s, and find that the brass sections tend to blend into an undifferentiated mass. Some system tweaks have allowed me to make some headway with the string sections, but success with the horns has been elusive.
My amp and digital equipment use a hodgepodge of isolation solutions: DIY rollerblocks, Nordost SortKone and Isoacoustics,
So in terms of achieving better instrument separation, does someone have thoughts on what to prioritize?
-Speaker isolation (Townshend Podiums or Star Sound) (or stay with default platforms) -Equipment isolation (Townshend pods) -Townshend F1 speaker cable.
Of all the various methods springs are by far the most reliably effective across a wide range of applications. Damped springs like Townshend are by far the most effective use of springs. So I have no hesitation in recommending them.
When it comes to complex specific solutions like this verity audio thing it is impossible to tell just by looking at it whether it is highly effective but costs a fortune, or ineffective but costs a fortune, or somewhere in between.
Only thing we can tell for sure they are using all these different materials because each one has its own peculiar sonic signature. This simply is the nature of vibration and there really is nothing anyone can do about that. What this means is all vibration control solutions inevitably boil down to one of two alternatives: either use springs to allow free movement, or use a combination of materials to try and achieve a sonically neutral or at least euphonic ringing.
Some of these complex materials combinations might work pretty good. When this happens they usually cost a small fortune, because of the complex engineering and construction. Also they tend to be much more specific in application, in other words might work great on one thing not at all on another. Springs in contrast are much more effective across a wide range of applications.
In other words what mitch2 said, you will just have to try it and see. My money’s on Podiums kicking major butt. But you never know for sure until you try.
Looks like a constrained layer platform using some type of acoustic foam, or maybe fiberglass like the Owens corning 703/705, as the primary damping material. This would be a decoupling solution like Townshend's springs, Herbies elastic material, or the A/V RoomService EVPs. All of them are basically springs, but they each have different elastic properties and will likely sound different from each other when used under your speakers. I would simply use your platforms and enjoy your speakers unless you are really curious and feel the urge to try different things. Only you can tell which product you like best, and for that you must try them in \your own system.
Looking for some feedback whether my speakers might benefit from the Townshend Podiums. My speakers are Verity Amadis S. They come with the following isolation platform that Verity developed. As I'm not too technically inclined, I'm wondering if someone has any thoughts where the Verity platform fits into the spectrum of issues discussed in this thread and what changes I would likely encounter in trying the Townshend Podium. Thanks all!
Yea my room is freak enough yours is Plan Nine from outer space..I will send you pictures of the mechanical coupling devices we created at Starsound Technologies so you can create your pantomime version. Or look on line.. Keep up the good work and thanks for sharing your ideas and personal experience. Tom
Helmholtz as in the Argent Room Lenses I recommended to you a couple years ago..Great devices they are...stage shifters and shapers. Tom
Precisely yes! i thank you for that in the past and i can thank you again...
But it takes me only few hours to understand why argent Room lenses are not so effective...reading about psycho acoustic and Helmholtz original ideas...
I created more than 40 Helmholtz tubes around my room and they begin their "circle" near the tweeter of one speaker ( few inches) the "head" of my mechanical equalizer and ended near at few inches also the woofer of the other speaker...
The reason for this is the psycho-acoustic fact linked to the way each ears perceive first frontwaves sounds coming from each speaker and the way the brain locate each sound in a room...
Then the power of my mechanichal equalizer compared to the Argent room lenses are huge improvement...Because the room lenses are not each one of them like my 40 tubes and pipes and bottles FINE TUNED each one in relation to the technical specificity of the speakers and the specific acoustic features of the room geometry, topology and content...Each of my tubes work differently in their particular location creating a new pressure zone in the room...
And my mechanical equalizer cost is zero... I used only discarded plumbers pipes tubes and bottles... With straws of different size mechanically adjusted to the mouth of each pipe... More than that i also created tubes which are more diffusers of sound than absorbers...
All is fine tuned on a few months listening experiments process like we tune a piano....
Then yes it is you who inspire my idea but there is NO relation in cost and efficiency between my equalizer and the 9 identical tubes of the room lenses...You just put my attention at the right time on the right phenomenon : Helmholtz bottles....Thanks for that....
Because i never bought any tweak but prefer to let them inspire my own working i react speedily....
My geatest tubes is 8 feet high and the smaller one is almost a straw...
In audio nevermind the amplifier, the dac, or the speakers, ACOUSTIC is queen....
For sure my mechanical equalizer cannot be put in a living room....
The most precious tool for audiophile experience is simply a dedicated audio room... It was and is my own luxury in audio....
I’m sensitive to aesthetics in my set up, so would be very unlikely to employ such a tweak.
I understand that my solution so effective it was cannot be adopted in a living room at all...
My problem was cost...
I dont wanted and never bought anything costly...
I prefered to use cheap materials and my homemade devices...With astounding results...
« A straw can change the sound of an entire room if you put it at the mouth of the rightfully choosen bottle or pipe»-Anonymus Acoustician son of Helmholtz
Interesting solution! It must be really sonically satisfying.
I'm sensitive to aesthetics in my set up, so would be very unlikely to employ such a tweak.
In fact I've been shedding gear. Just sold off my subwoofers, crossover.The room looks (and sounds) better without them IMO.
It's actually a relief to simply.
Though I'm not finished in the tweaky area of things. I'm still doing ongoing comparisons of two amps, tube rolling etc. But hopefully that will be over with soon and then back to just listening to the music.
However, there was a step back in one of the main areas I’m most sensitive about: density and impact of the sound. This is an attribute I have worked to get in to my system. With the spring footers, the sound just got a bit too light and featherweight sounding, less dense, less impact and connection. It became a bit more "electrostatic like" in the experience. Also the tonal balance got a little too brilliant and light, less rich.
Thanks prof for your review...
Just a word to say that your description of the Springs boxes nobsound match completely my experience... But the effect you lived through with the springs is could be partally solved by the finetuning of the compressive force...In my experience even under 100 gram of difference between load and weight made a very audible difference... My load of concrete on each speaker is near 80 pounds...
I said partially solved... To solve it completely I bought another set of 4 boxes spring for each speaker...
I solved this problem at last in lost of " density" by introducing another set of spring boxes under this very heavy fine tuned load of concrete on top of my speakers... The dissymmetric compressive force difference between the 2 sets of 4 boxes, under and on top of each speaker, decreasing some resonance, give to me complete satisfaction...
Cost= peanuts
Negative: the speakers being stable are not enough stable for a living room with young children tough....
Well, I’ve completed my Townshend Speaker Bars experience.
I shipped them back to Townshend.
First, please understand the following is just my experience/preference, not a diss of the Townshend products. I still use the wonderful Townshend pods under my turntable.
As I mentioned before (in this or other threads) my interest in the Townshend bars was sparked first by how well the seismic isolation pods worked under my turntable platform. They measurably reduced vibration transfer to the turntable, especially from floor born impacts, in a way no other isolation device came close to achieving. So I knew they "really did something."
I also found the on-line Townshend demos of the speaker isolation devices very intriguing.
To quickly check spring decoupling for my speakers I bought a version of the nobsound spring footers. The difference in sound with the springs under my speakers really amazed me. They displayed many of the attributes attributed to the Townshend products: speakers disappeared more, more and finer detail, more relaxed sounding etc.
However, there was a step back in one of the main areas I’m most sensitive about: density and impact of the sound. This is an attribute I have worked to get in to my system. With the spring footers, the sound just got a bit too light and featherweight sounding, less dense, less impact and connection. It became a bit more "electrostatic like" in the experience. Also the tonal balance got a little too brilliant and light, less rich.
How much of this was due to the isolation and how much due to the raising of the speakers was hard to be sure of.
Ultimately I preferred the sound of my speakers sitting on the carpeted wood floor. The slight loss of finesse was made up for by restoring the punch and density tonal balance and to me realism of the sound.
Given the Townshend speaker bars (which I had reason to prefer over the podiums) were more highly engineered to the goal, and also wouldn’t alter the speaker height by much, my hopes were for similar gains, with fewer drawbacks.
Townshend were excellent to deal with, btw, as a customer.
The results in my system: I was surprised that I didn’t hear as much of a difference as I was expecting. I mean, the sound was definitely different...it just wasn’t obviously better.
The speakers disappeared *slightly* more (not as much as with the nobsound springs!), and the sound slightly relaxed (too much IMO). And a good thing, the sound didn’t thin out nearly as much as with the cheaper spring products. Plus, a good amount of impact was maintained.
But...the "good" just wasn’t enough to outweigh the "bad" for me. I found the tonal balance altered to darker and more lush, which actually sounded a bit less natural and real to me. I liked the more airy, open, vivid tonal balance with the speakers on the floor. Also, there was some loss in density and impact. Put together, I just connected more to the sound with the speakers sitting on the floor.
I tried all sorts of variations over time: Wondering if a sort of split-the-difference may work, I tried a single set of speaker bars under either the front or rear of the speaker. I did combinations with the nobsound spring footers. I did combinations with isacoustic products. Various adjustments to speaker rake, height etc. Anything I could think of.
Every time, the speakers sounded better to me just sitting on the floor.
So, unfortunately, back they went to Townshend (30 day trial period).
I’d liked the bars to have improved my system’s sound. But I’m also fine with getting that tweak out of my system. In the end, since I use more than one speaker in and out of my system, not having to mess with speaker bars/platforms is a good thing too.
I’d still recommend anyone intrigued by the Townshend speaker isolation products to give them a try. Clearly many have had great results.
Same experience here with Gaia’s. I liked them better than spikes, but the Townshend Pods were a substantial level beyond the Gaia’s. Townshend helped my speakers disappear and gave my system a wonderful sense of ease that the Gaia’s could not match.
Makes sense. In practice though it seems, if anything, to go the other way. But full disclosure, I have only a very few examples to go by.
Certainly there have been Wilson and Magico owners that have found big improvements over spike coupling. I think the take away is that both conventional MDF cabinets and those made from rigid exotic naterials benefit.
MC I think questforhifi was suggesting that speakers with more rigid
cabinets may benefit more from the podiums (i.e. not that rigid
connection to the floor is better).
Ahh, okay. In that case then the answer is no. lol! We had some here, to be more rigid I think they would have to be solid tungsten carbide or something like that. Compared to my Moabs made of ordinary braced MDF the Podiums were about the same either way. Also these particular speakers, while the cabinets were a lot smaller and a lot more rigid and highly damped, they were so dense that together with their stands they were very close in terms of mass and center of gravity to the Moabs.
I can see where it would make sense to think a rigid cabinet would benefit more. A speaker that is truly dead, almost all the smearing is ringing. Podiums eliminate ringing, there is almost nothing left. Should be bigger improvement than a less rigid speaker that still has a lot of residual cabinet vibration.
Makes sense. In practice though it seems, if anything, to go the other way. But full disclosure, I have only a very few examples to go by.
I owned for a while the Gaia 1’s and I was impressed compared to the spikes that came with my Focal Sopra’s. Focal actually uses the Gaia’s at audio shows with there speakers.
But because of mc review I went ahead and ordered a pair of the Townshend Podiums. And wow! What an improvement! Everything we want out of our speakers improved. That is; bass, spaciousness, mids, highs depth, etc. I now use the Gaia's under my JL subs.
Sounds to me like the least rigid came out best, and by a lot.
MC I think questforhifi was suggesting that speakers with more rigid cabinets may benefit more from the podiums (i.e. not that rigid connection to the floor is better).
Podiums are a serious improvement regardless of what was used before. They are much better than ordinary springs like Nobsound. Several here have upgraded to them from Gaia and feel they are well worth the extra. So it is not just the isolation, but the vibration control aspect of springs that control resonance with tuned damping.
questforhifi, You might want to read your own post again.
"I managed to pick up the Townshend seismic platform for my KEF
Blades for less than what the Gaia i’s would have cost. Now given the
amount of effort KEF has already gone to in making the cabinet inert
(you really can leave a £1 coin on the top for weeks whilst it plays
Prodigy at insane levels), I wasn’t expecting much of a change.
It was simply profound - as significant (maybe more?) than changing my whole digital front end + source + its PSUs.
and
Previously had Soundcare Superspikes - which were definately an improvement over the stock KEF spikes."
So your "reliable user" started with KEF spikes, found Soundcare spikes were definitely an improvement, and then was shocked to hear "profound improvement" with Townshend Podiums.
Sounds to me like the least rigid came out best, and by a lot.
They are surely going to bring some noticeable gains when installed to speakers which are previously coupled to the floor with spikes of all sorts, and the difference can be quite dramatic. After trying the Isoacoustics Gaia on my speakers,, I can now understand the enthusiasm on the benefits of proper speaker isolation.
Good luck in whatever you choose for your Kef Blades.
“Installing the GAIA isolators on my KEF Blades gave the biggest improvement in sound I have ever heard on the system. Better than changing cables or electronics, the noise floor was lower, the focus was better, and the bass went deeper. All around a total success.”
and here is what a reliable user from another forum had to say about the townshend: "I managed to pick up the Townshend seismic platform for my KEF Blades for less than what the Gaia i’s would have cost. Now given the amount of effort KEF has already gone to in making the cabinet inert (you really can leave a £1 coin on the top for weeks whilst it plays Prodigy at insane levels), I wasn’t expecting much of a change.
It was simply profound - as significant (maybe more?) than changing my whole digital front end + source + its PSUs.
I clearly understand nothing about this "hobbie".
Previously had Soundcare Superspikes - which were definately an improvement over the stock KEF spikes."
For some reason these products are extremely popular for my speaker in particular. Starting to think more ridged = more benefit
yea i dont think she could tip them either its more of a paranoid wife thing. and your correct about its design its extremely ridged with side firing woofers designed to cancel out and eliminate cabinet resonance. I posted right before clicking buy and was made an offer from the seller
One thought though is that perhaps an extremely ridged and dense/sturdy cabinet might actually make these products more useful because they have no flex/absorption of outside resonance.
I read a few blade owners wow about the gaias. I just know my wife hates the spikes and the way they look (on wood floors) and wants me to go bare from platform to floor so i was looking for a solution. Trying to be kind to her i bought these speakers without even telling her in the first place
Questfor hifi, I seriously doubt a 2 year old is going to knock a blade over. Punch a hole in a woofer maybe. There is also ripping the midrange cone out by the fins. If you let them prance around naked she might wee on one. While she is prancing around your need to get movies of her to show at her wedding reception.
Blades are great speakers. They are a balanced force design and should shake very little with bass. I would spend the money on a better tonearm or cartridge. If you want to know how much resonance your floors and walls pass on turn the system up and listen to the floor in the next room with a stethoscope. What you hear is it. You can also tell how well your tonearm and cartridge are doing by listening to the cartridge track with the preamp off. You should hear is absolutely nothing. What you do hear is resonance passed on or rather poorly controlled. Do listen to the floor. If you do get the podiums listen to the floor again and tell us if there is any difference.
Yeah, current street price for Gaia 2 in Aus is about A$449 (per set 4) which equates to about US$333. So not crazy different. Gaia 1 is typically selling for A$999 in Aus at the moment, about US$741 per set. Unfortunately I required the more expensive Gaia 1.
In my experience if the Nobsound or their chinese identical counterpart, if they are are ONLY under speakers they will not play with only positives...
It takes me an heavy load to damp them rightfully finely tuned around under 100 gram......
And even that set of 4 will let emerge some "distortions" difficult to detect for some at first listening...
It takes me 4 boxes under speakers and another 4 boxes on top of the speakers with a very heavy load (at least near 85 pounds), to dyssimetrically compress the 2 pairs and damping then and decrease some resonance of the speakers...
After that the S.Q. is totally changed...
It is not for a regular living room.... Stability of my speakers are ok for my audio room, not for a living room with children at all...
ratio S.Q. /cost is very good for me...
I learned that my good sandwich platform of different materials did not isolate nor couple/decouple optimally in spite of the wide varieties of materials... And the first time i introduce this sandwich the results were very good so good that the negatives were not perceived at this time.... I used this sandwich now under the springs boxes they contribute better in this way to isolate from everything on my desk...All my audio gear is on my big desk....
Tobes, I agree. Perhaps my thoughts are too general and not applicable to all scenarios. Also, the perception of value is subjective. The Townshend can appear to be great value when compared to Isoacoustics in certain conditions.
If something works like a charm in the system, it will be regarded as great value irrespective of price. In this case, the Townshend. If something doesn't work at all, it is useless and has no value..
The Gaias represent higher value than the Townshend equivalent although the latter is sonically superior.
Not sure I agree. In Australia the Gaia 1 to suit my speakers were A$2.2K and the Podiums were A$3.3K delivered from UK. So 50% more for the Podiums. I tried the Gaia 1 but thought they were disappointing at the price and returned them. In my system the Podiums made a much more emphatic and obvious improvement justifying the higher cost. So, regardless of the higher cost, my experience is the Podiums are better value - though like most things this will probably be system, listener and possibly location (RRP) dependent.
I may not have anything against Nobsound nor do I wish to contradict Millercarbon’s positive experience with the Nobsound, and I am sure they work wonders in some systems and may produce similar or better results than the Isoacoustics Gaia. However, there is one big hindrance for me to consider the Nobsound even though it may have the same benefits as the Isoacoustics equivalent.
To me, the Nobsound doesn’t look the part. I have looked at these after Millercarbon recommended it several months ago on another thread. The isolation footers not only need to sound good but they need to look good as well. I have to say that looks do matter to me. My speakers not only sound a lot better with the Gaias but they also look nicer and more elegant with them. The Gaias are really a great option for anyone looking to add some isolation to the speakers, and I can highly recommend them after the positive things they have added to my system.
SImilarly, I have read great things about the Townshend seismic platform and believe that they are superior to the Isoacoustics Gaia. People who have compared both always find the Townshend to sound better. I was made to understand that the Townshend platform has 100% success rate without any registered failures when installed to the speakers, contrary to the Isoacoustics Gaia where 1 in 10 or 1 in 100 experience a degradation in sound quality instead of an improvement. Nevertheless, I suppose the Townshend is more suited to higher end systems and not modest or budget setups like mine. The Gaias represent higher value than the Townshend equivalent although the latter is sonically superior.
Similarly, the Nobsound represents higher value than the Gaias but I still picked the latter as it looks the part at a cost that is not too exorbitant when compared to the Townshend. :-)
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