I was very interested, especially with all the talk. I brought the subject up on the Vandersteen forum site, and Richard Vandersteen himself weighed in. As with everything, nothing is perfect in all circumstances. If the floor is wobbly, springs can work, if the speaker is on solid ground, 3 spikes is preferred.
Stringreen, Respectfully, from what I understand about how they work, I can't see why they would be more or less effective on those two different types of floor. I wonder if you or others hear could weigh in with details about why this might be so. Thanks, John
Because allowing the cabinet to move, especially in a low cabinet resonance, pistonic motion, time and phase design smears the signal. On a moving floor this smearing is already happening. RV actually tested the subject product and wrote about the plus / minus achieved by him with his speakers, including measurements and listening.
As i recall the OP here has 5a.
As always, other speakers or floor combinations may benefit.
Also both the Kento and new 7 extreme use a force cancellation alignment of the unique to Vandersteen Scanspeak bass drivers, reducing already low cabinet movement.
if the speaker is on solid ground, 3 spikes is preferred.
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That's the problem there is no such thing, the actual floor becomes a transmission medium and delivers a signal out of time with the actual driver's delivered signal via AIR.. The floor no matter the medium (unless it was 1/2 thick rubber) will deliver a signal at two different times to YOU in the seated position. SPIKES cause it, decoupling stops it.
12" thick concrete is not thick enough, maybe on 4 foot center 12" x 60" friction piers. A 12" thick slab and a 1/2" of rubber.. Drop the speaker on that..
For the best results ALLWAYS decouple, mains and subs, one from the other, and the room surfaces and boundaries.. There is no exception.
Spring, pods, innertubes. There is more than one way to skin a cat..
Until you put his speakers on Podiums, and hear the profound improvement. Okay maybe not even then. But those still open to learning and with a desire for better sounding systems regardless of what else it might imply, those people will definitely hear it and be happy and want it.
Read actual user comments. Wobbly floors, solid floors, concrete floors, does not matter.
The physics is the same regardless of the speaker manufacturer. My experience with spikes vs. decoupling (using Herbies products and later springs) led me to believe in the benefit of decoupling on both suspended wood floors and on grade-supported concrete slabs. The effect of decoupling/springs could be different and/or more substantial for speakers supported on suspended floors than for those supported on concrete, but IME it is the better performing option as discussed by @oldhvymec below.
For those who might want to read R. Vandersteen’s comment:
I have tried to duplicate Townshend’s test results but was unable to measure the amount of movement of the floor in the lab or my home (was unable to sinc the test with a earthquake even though I am in Calif). Both locations are concrete floors directly on the ground. If ones floor has significant tympanic movement from some source (music, subway, train, freeway ,etc) spring isolation tuned to a very low frequency may allow the speaker to more accurately pressurize the room with music’s information. In my rooms it caused dynamic compression and smearing because the speaker enclosure moves. It does make the sound less bright and the sound stage gets more diffuse (larger but less defined) which may sound better with some speakers especially if like most speakers the tweeter is too bright. The ultimate goal is for the speaker to be held in space as rigidly in space as possible so that any movement in any of the speakers drivers is not modified but a facsimile of what came from the amplifier. Like usual this will vary in different situations but in IMO 3 points works best in most situations.
The ultimate goal is for the speaker to be held in space as rigidly
in space as possible so that any movement in any of the speakers drivers
is not modified but a facsimile of what came from the amplifier.
He may be right about this being the "ultimate" goal. Theoretically, at least. In a perfect world.
In the world we live in however there is no infinitely immovable anything. Everything however hard and stiff and damped always winds up moving and vibrating. Vibrations being what they are in the world we live in some of them reflect right back to the driver, while the rest causes the whole mass to vibrate in sympathy. Just the way it is, and no amount of theoretical "ultimate goal" gonna change it one bit.
That is why these things work. Everything vibrates no matter what, and so it turns out to work a whole lot better to let them vibrate but in a way that is isolated from everything else.
in my attempt to not promote a competing product aka shill i didn’t mention Vandersteen partnered a high tech firm making constrained layer compound make a “ bedrock “ granite base that Vandy products couple to via three poinrs. Constrained layer damping converts motion to heat and also greatly reduces reflections back from floor to loudspeaker.
When you dive deep into Vandersteen you discover what i call the orbit of excellence - they tend to show with ARC, Aesthetix, Basis, Brinkmann, Lyra, HRS Triplaner, Audioquest - sharing the spur for innovation and idea, even patent sharing ( DBS ). Another example is R core power supply transformers….
MC of course misses the point that Vandersteen is hardly just a theoretical guy, listen and measure. I expected no less a low reading comprehension retort.
So the guy who has nothing to sell you call a shill, while holding up as a paragon of impartial virtue a guy you know DOES have something to sell. Then after calling me a shill you have the gall to throw the low reading comprehension retort.
in my attempt to not promote a competing product
How about instead of attempting to promote or not promote any product you attempt merely to promote the truth? Why not give that a shot? For a change?
also, for the earnest on the thread, the competing product I mentioned Bedrock is a very narrow market specialized ( and optimized for load / vibration for speaker by Vandersteen speaker ) for Vandersteen speakers only. They are not intended for X, Y, Z brand…just like the purpose built M5 and M7 amplifiers..
I think Stringreen should cast a wide net. He strikes me as a music lover seeking to increase his enjoyment and emotional connection to the music.
"Isolation below speakers works from my experience...but it greatly varies from speaker to speaker and from room to room."
Can’t argue with that.
In my experience, isolation makes considerably less difference with concrete floors.
The size, and especially weight, of the speakers must also be factors to be considered.
Perhaps most importantly, there’s also cabinet construction to take into account. As far as I’m aware, no manufacturer has given this issue as much thought as Harbeth have. As they admit, they are merely following the decades old BBC research into cabinet construction.
The BBCs conclusions were that low frequencies are better dealt with by pushing them below the threshold of hearing (some 20dB below if I remember correctly) than attempting to suppress by sheer mass and rigidity.
Hence Harbeths lossy cabinets are almost in direct opposition of everyone else’s.
Well...yall see thats where Harbeth differ, they are audio engineers who have adapted a highly successful and time proven design principle and applied those principles into a highly effective speaker design...
They haven’t merely chucked a bucket load of cheap third world quality Tat shack speakers at a 2 mill thick monkey coffin.. Rock on
What makes me gun-shy about getting the springs is that I tried Herbies things under my 5A's (a large step backward), Vandersteen's comments, (the speakers are time aligned and float a gorgeous tone picture...my thinking is that if the speaker can rock, the timing will suffer - don't know that as fact..just wondering), also my speakers are extremely heavy and would require hired hands to complete the setup.. too much for an experiment.
stringreen, Just to be clear, are you using Vandersteen's recommended bases at this time? If not, and he's recommending three point support, I would say look into the Starsound support platforms. They were a miracle for my floorstanders and others too. If I understand correctly, it is more of a sophisticated energy drain from the vibrations of the speaker cabinets, and it's not a subtle difference. It makes the speakers disappear.
"I thought the best results were whatever sounds best to you in your listening room"
@chayro, I agree that actually listening is the final arbiter. Well Richard Vandersteen did exactly that with his speakers in two seperate rooms. He found that springs resulted in "dynamic compression " and "smearing".
It does raise the spector of speaker enclosure construction, rigidity, internal bracing and resistance to resonance and vibration. Given the differences between his Vandersteen cabinet implementation and say Tekton or another speaker, could this be responsible for his outcome variance compared to what others report?
It seems logical that speaker cabinet design and construction is a significant consideration to explain the relative effectiveness of springs versus the alternatives. Charles
...my thinking is that if the speaker can rock, the timing will suffer - don’t know that as fact..just wondering), also my speakers are extremely heavy and would require hired hands to complete the setup.. too much for an experiment.
Yes, you would probably need the help of one other person.
However, there are inexpensive tools that can help the set-up process: inflatable bladders sold on Amazon, 7" square furniture sliders, and round MoveAlls. The 7" square sliders are great for helping to slide and position speakers onto the podiums. The round sliders are great for placing under the Podium feet to easily position the speakers. When you’ve locked in the position, use an air bladder or two to raise the podium just enough to pull out the furniture sliders.
Again, Richard Vandersteen has addressed what he heard using Townshend podiums under his loudspeakers in this comment previously posted here, and originally posted in your Vandersteen forums thread.
In my rooms it caused dynamic compression and smearing because the speaker enclosure moves. It does make the sound less bright and the sound stage gets more diffuse (larger but less defined) which may sound better with some speakers especially if like most speakers the tweeter is too bright.
Will podiums have the same affect on your 5A loudspeakers in your system and room? You’ll have to try them yourself.
I’d definitely go with podiums versus bars or individual pods. Townshend advises this for better stability.
BTW...I used Starsound platforms under Silverline Sonata III loudspeakers: expansive three dimensional image floating free of the speakers, tighter and more controlled bass. You’d definitely need a few helpers to install those.
@roxy54, Star Sound platforms versus the Townshend would be a very worthwhile comparison of two highly praised products. Based on the Richard Vandersteen experience I would not be surprised if the chosen speaker/ room favors one over the other. Charles
If the speakers are extremely heavy that is mass, which is in the kilograms, while the moving parts are cones and voice coils, are in the grams. What this means, if you know your physics, f=ma force equals mass times acceleration, you can have a hell of a lot of driver cone acceleration while moving the speaker mass only microscopically.
Still, this microscopic movement matters. Because the finest details we hear are so low in level they correspond to cone movement measured in angstroms. Really, really small.
Which might argue for rigid mounting. Except it turns out the bigger problem is once the mass does move it transmits this vibration down through the cabinet into the floor and from then on the whole speaker/room system is vibrating.
This ringing goes on a lot longer than if the same vibrations were confined to the speaker cabinet alone. It is the duration of the ringing and not the amplitude that blurs and smears and loses detail and dynamics. This is visually demonstrated by putting a seismograph (in the form of an iPad) on a speaker. The speaker on spikes shows obvious prolonged ringing. The same speaker on Podiums shows virtually no ringing. The sound we hear corresponds perfectly to this demonstration.
There is indeed some loss of dynamics. But there is also the same loss even when supposedly rigidly mounted on spikes or cones or whatever, even on concrete. This happens because of another physics feature, leverage. Drivers are always some distance from the floor. This distance is a lever arm. Anyone can prove this, simply push on the top of your speaker, believe me it will move. Push hard enough it will fall over, spikes or not. But even a small push of a fraction of a pound will with tall speakers leverage into lots of pounds at the base.
The speaker rocks. Either way. Virtually the same amount. Main difference, springs make it easier to see. Real difference, springs allow the vibrations to dissipate much faster. That is why they sound so much cleaner, in spite of superficial appearances.
@tvad, "BTW...I used Starsound platforms under Silverline Sonata III loudspeakers. They were phenomal: three dimensional image floating free of the speakers, tighter and more controlled bass."
Yep, agree 100%, absolutely my outcome with Coincident speakers . I haven’t used the Townshend podiums. They could be every bit as effective for all I know. Charles
"The speaker rocks. Either way. Virtually the same amount. Main difference, springs make it easier to see. Real difference, springs allow the vibrations to dissipate much faster. That is why they sound so much cleaner, in spite of superficial appearances"
Good points but to be fair R. Vandersteen did listen to both springs and 3 point isolation and did not find the former to be cleaner. Again how do Moabs versus his speaker factor in to the differences heard? I don't know. Charles
if F=MA explained the whole universe, what a boring place it would be. Somebody skipped a few lessons…
the 7 weighs less than the 225# 5a, yet has better cabinet performance…because somebody didn’t just sit on laurels… It incorporates advances in science and materials. I can hear it having owned both the 5a and the 7.
Also the main but not sole source of vibration energy in the 5a and first 2 model 7’s is the 12” dual voice coil push pull driver….wait for it… aligned vertically…..Let me know when the 1812 cannon shot levitates that 225# 5a, or pins it to the floor. Tell me where the lever is again ? Like i said before, the Kento and new 7 extreme use force cancellation drivers ….mounted very low in the cabinet…
All Vandy speakers come w 3 spike attachment points including String’s 5a, i assume he is using them.
Bedrock came about in a creative collaboration with Helmut Brinkmann ( ya that guy ) at the Munich show.
All this isn't new…good speaker designers from a host of cutting edge firms which come to mind are trying to build lower resonant cabinets that don’t reflect energy back into the drivers…
and some like Harbeth build superb sounding kit despite it…
Finally, measure and listen… tools for measuring the cabinet radiated and stored energy release ( think that thru ) are widely available and frankly inexpensive, ditto access to a laser scanner to see what a cone or panel is doing relative to the input signal….
Excuse me while i go listen to my Quads….the BBC has a lecture on …..quantum physics…I am wondering why a genius like Peter Walker would emulate a point source on a planer driver….it probably has something to do with …..F
For the DIY crowd, Bedrock could be somewhat duplicated w Granite, some thoughtful milling and Green Glue or another constrained layer elastomer of your choice….
i don’t think you can generalize what is an ideal speaker-floor interface method across all speaker types and floor types; that is a mistake.
how my 750 pound each (x4), twin tower, Evolution Acoustic MM7’s work on 6 inches of concrete is different than a speaker half or less weight on a suspended wood floor. then take that smaller, lighter, speaker and add multiple subwoofers to it.
that smaller speaker on the trampoline of a suspended wood floor being also energized by a bunch of subs will likely get a net benefit from the extreme decoupling of the Townshend springs. then consider the cabinet build quality at particular price points and that is another factor favoring extreme decoupling.
my MM7’s are over-built with 2000 layers of baltic birch and pressed together by a 6 ton press. you have 750 pounds of mass and a concrete floor. i still use Wave Kinetic 2NS speaker decoupling footers for a small degree of decoupling which does eliminate smear.
passive resonance treatments are very much a matter of context. one size does not fit all.
btw; my speakers are voiced using the 2NS footers on a concrete floor. i have visited my speaker builder multiple times. he set up my speakers in my room.
Charles, That’s great. They’re really amazing. I don’t know if you’re aware of these, but a couple of years ago, Robert suggested that I night add the APCD4-Inverts between the upward facing cones and the speaker bottoms. I got them, and it not only improves the effect, but it prevents further damage to the speaker bottoms and makes small placement adjustments so easy. John Audio Points™ by Star Sound Technologies
It’s simple to understand and it was understood in the 80s buy two prominent speaker builders at the time, Carver, and VMPS.
They both understood that cabinet resonance transferred to a common medium will induces a third passive driver. There is no way to USE the signal without introducing a serious timing issue between the air being pushed from the drivers, vs the arrival time of the floor, walls. and ceiling. The floor is quicker..
Smearing happens by funneling all the different frequencies into ONE common medium, (via spikes)
What I learned from Brian Cheney and Bob Carver is the term BASS cohesion. The second is BASS propagation
The signals that were being transferred to the floor are now stopped. They decouple, easy fix. BUT we don't raise it to much because of bass LOSS, WHY? Bass uses boundaries to GROW or propagate. YOU will hear the bass from that speaker go DOWN in volume, ACTUAL volume..
Cabinets do not move if they are made for one thing BASS.
The monitors can’t move because they weigh 425 lbs each and the BASS is in a different cabinet..
We help a CABINET dissipate the vibration a few ways. No bass in the monitor cabinet and narrow the baffle face to reduce the collection point for second hand bass.
In the bass cabinets use sound coat to reduce resonance issues THICH walls of MDF and bracing to reduce any panel lengths over 8". The cabinet is MADE for bass, not every frequency on the planet...
Pods, Springs, Air ride or a good sand pit the SUB cabinets. (I'm using OB servos by GR) Pods, Springs and or air ride the Mid Bass Cabinets. My MB LS Columns Pods, Springs and or air ride the Monitor cabinets. VMPS Elixirs..
From my read, Star sound ain’t springs. Looks intriguing and the sane , at least two seem to use to good effect. Reasonable $, will give them a whirl under something.
Mike - Nice to see you weigh in. Like you, i have heard my speakers at both Vandersteen house in his massive room with concrete floors and again as he set them up here on my suspended glue/ lam I beam truss floor.
Well unexpected result or not , in his room with his speakers he said they outperformed the springs. High End audio is curious and simultaneously fun. Charles
Hi Mike - The Wave Kinetics certainly ain’t springs. To me they seem quite similar to some but not all of the engineering in an HRS Nimbus. They claim An 80% reduction in loudspeaker harmonic distortion seems incredible…..can you ask what the test methodology was for that, because, well thats freaking amazing … Are they $1,600 a pop ? i would need 6. $9,600. How many are you using ? Best Jim
The logic of springs is an easy one to wrap my head around.
Im building some prototype speakers and getting close to sealing them up. Once I close them up and weigh the complete unit (and find the center of gravity for them) I’ll be sourcing the “correct” springs for them and integrating those directly to the speakers bases.
Nominal cost for something that benefits the end user immensely!
I love my Townsend Bars, wouldn't trade them in for anything else. Couldn't tell you how they work, they just do. My 125 lb speakers float in the air, the sway when touched. Everything comes into equilibrium sound-wise for me.
Well a great speaker may not have such noble beginnings as some of the above. Here we go. Three guys setting around talking one night. One a speaker manufacture One an Amp designer One a master cabinet maker
The amp designer, who doesn't care for speaker design at all, sketches a speaker design on a napkin that he know will work VERY well, BUT has never seen anyone tackle the wide baffle issues with any success. That was
James Bongiorno. He hands the sketch to Brian Cheney of VMPS. It's a new design for neo 8 planars (Monsoon), Strathearns, BG ribbons, any and every type of narrow planar or ribbon design. Dorn Dibble who is there sharing the single malt is asked if he could do it he says yes I need some tools..
The Elixir was born, HDF front baffle coupled to a MDF bass chamber, and only 16 pairs ever produced, It's an amazing story of 3 drunk fellow designing a speaker one night on a drink napkin. Pimp Daddy, Mr. Bass and "The Dibbs".
BTW all were pretty decent jazz musicians at the time before their passing..
I liked him.... Didn't talk much. I watched everything he did.. Man he was fast..
BOOIIIIIINGG! This must be the most repeated topic here. No need to keep repeating, the answer is simple:
If your floor is insufficiently rigid then make it rigid or change rooms, or houses. If your floor goes boiing, adding more boiing with springs will just make matters worse = boiing boiing.
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