The molecular level explanation of "cable burn-in"

Big yawn ...

Bigger yawn...

Childhood trauma? Anyone whip you with a power cable when you were a kid for bad behavior?

You can choose to believe any hype you choose or listen to someone who has been on the tech and repair side of the industry for 40 years. as I have chosen to do. Let your wallet be your guide!. 

I like power cables! I need power cables!

Reminds me of a co-worker who would write such equations to describe various other coworkers' personalities and quirks.  Was quite funny actually.  Yes, they were aware of it.  

Thanks for the inputs. You don't hate Mondays... so good night!

All the parameters in your equations are valid. Except Snake Oil. Might want to add the dampening of the conductors inside the cable.   When current flows through a cable it flexes.  A big air conditioning unit startup pulling 200 amps inrush.  An untethered cable will flex or move.  Extreme, high tension power lines shorting will actually whip around like a snake.  Obviously, there is less movement in what we speak but does alter the reactance of the cable and have an effect.

Also.  I think it has something to do with the power supply in the connected unit.  Not so much feeding power into the unit, but how the cable reacts to the counter emf that the unit is trying to push back into the power cord.  Creating standing waves on the wires in the cable.  The wires in the cable flexes on those standing waves.  And find a happy spot.  Break In.  Ultimately settling the Phase Aligning the dc voltages out of the power supply.   After all, It's all about the DC Phase Alignment

I think we both have too much extra time on our hands and need to get a hobby. 

Keep on believing in imaginary things.

DC Phase Alignment! LOL!

Creating standing waves on the wires in the cable. LOL x 2!

"Keep on believing in imaginary things"
Like your belief that all Dacs sound the same?

Very witty post. Thanks 

I can't explain it, therefore it cannot exist.

*Yawn*

"So it’s the plastic polymer (as dielectric insulation) to undergo some sort of molecular rearrangements to minimize the distortion. Probably one of the greatest scientific discoveries ever!"

Just in case this was not meant as sarcasm...

As a plastics engineer all I can say is BS. Any plastic will require a significant amount of energy (HEAT) to undergo a molecular rearrangement of any type. So much so it might even cause a FIRE.

I think the big miss on the whole snake oil thing is it's very obviously certain that better cable, esp in the extremes (lamp cord for speaker cable like I used when I was a super poor kid).  And there's a large range of improvement.  The only question is how much is worth it.  To me it's simply the law of diminishing returns.  And the good ole subjective, if it works for you then it works.  I think there are many things in our lives where we put some "faith" in things that aren't so tangible but it still makes us feel better and at least have the perception, real or not, that it's better.  More yawn...I know.  lol

Who knows why, but trust your ears.

If you can't tell the difference between cheap and expensive cables, your system isn't very resolving or you've got the speakers in the wrong place.

I’ll make everyone mad.  The main cable doesn’t effect the product it serves.

Instead, a poorly insulated main acts as an antenna and transmits garbage from inside the component it serves under certain circumstances.

You can test this with a cheap main and a cheap interconnect from different devices.  Tape them together for a bit of a run.  You can definitely pick up a hum or hiss or pop. 

In the typical rats’ nest of wires  behind so many audiophile set ups, you’ll get plenty of touching wires with plenty of parallel runs.  Frequently you’ll get some noise.

Run your wires carefully, try not to let them touch, give everything space, and where they have to cross, do so at 90 degrees (or a sharp angle), and use nice, but not exotic, wires, and all such issues disappear. XLR/balanced wiring and components helps a lot, too.  
 

The most sensitive run is from your turntable.  Any issue there is multiplied along and it’s the weakest signal in the chain.  Run it balanced (or however one wants to describe it) if you can.

All the exotic wires, difficult to repeat issues, difficult to test, issues are explained by the above.

Source:  I was an electronic countermeasures officer in a rather long and unpleasant war, and would face things like components working differently when one was placed on top of the other and not the other way around, that no Raytheon engineer could explain but sure as Hell happened consistently. 

@dougthebiker 

“If you can't tell the difference between cheap and expensive cables, your system isn't very resolving or you've got the speakers in the wrong place”

Maybe.  Or the set up doesn’t have the interference the fancy cables are solving in another situation.  Or the components were designed to use the wires being used.

It’s all very situationally dependent.

My mom had alcohol issues and once used a zip cord on me. To her surprise the evidence appeared the next morning in the form of red welts. She put long sleeves on me and buttoned up my top button before sending me off to school.  These days I can appreciate a better cable in a different manner.

Seems as plausible as any other 100% subjective theory, which they all are.

@classicrockfan

Interesting topic.

I find that the technical explanation of "observable" phenomena can take the following path(s):

Nothing observable happened. Therefore every explanation to validate it is BS.

Something did happen. The entirety of supportive explanations are valid.

Something did happen. But, our attempts to describe what we observed are invalid.

The case above, it’s an automatic reflex to reject all of the explanations if some of the explanations are invalid -- in OUR view even though there is a (growing) body of evidence to show something is real here. Taking an example of an individual finding a mere 20% of the talking points to be "true", that means that the vast majority of the details are not true (in their opinion). What about the other 20%? Do we reject the premise entirely even though there are proven elements to the premise?

I find it interesting, that groups of people with pedigrees as long as their arms can reach totally opposite conclusions on many subjects; some a matter of life or death. So, it comes down to motivation. What’s in it for them?

Are they trying to save the world from bad sound? Trying into make a buck? Attempting to maintain their SGR (Smartest Guy in the Room) status? Just enjoying lively conversation? Every fiber of their being is wrapped around this, and the penalties for failure are severe? (job, status, potential prison sentence ...). And, yes, there can be multiple motives -- save the world from bad sound AND make a living in the process. These are not always contradictory but can be rather complimentary.

The atomic expansion theory states that all atoms in the universe are expanding at the same rate, so we don’t observe anything changing. Right? Wrong? I don’t know. It’s well above my pay grade. But, it’s fun to watch the really smart guys on both sides of the issue duke it out. With no clear winner.

Another week, another cable thread.

I’m retired as many on this site, perhaps repetition Is a byproduct of forgetfulness. Over and over with 0 resolve, he said she said I say….who cares ! Enjoy what you have, snake oil or not and let’s move on.

Cheers

If you look a Belden wire catalog they make all types of wire and fiber optics. They rate the insulator in capacitance per foot and the longer the cable the higher the capacitance becomes. The indicatance is from the wire and is rated in frequency as reactance Xc. You can check Belden silver plated wire and teflon insulator and compare it to a PVC or insulator and find that it's significantly lower. 

https://belden-cable.ru/upload/iblock/21b/21b558ef198fbc14dc23af11399e8e6f.pdf

Facts are out there

Excuse me XL and XC

While this explanation is less non-sensical that changes in the copper, it still doesn't pass the smell test for me.

There is a lot of misinformation in this thread from the non-technical folks.

Jerry

Dang! I thought I 'd read something new, but yes, indeed, same old crap letter by letter and word by word of settling an insulation material to "getting used to" molecular mode LOL!!

Cables are the obligatory passage of many audiophiles who for a reason or another because they cannot tackle the essential of acoustics focus on gear and especially cables.. ( and no acoustics with an (s) is not reducible to mere room acoustic or your mere ears biases )

Read me right cables matter. But it is in no way the essential...

Then yes i was whipped in my young audiophile age by the great numbers of audio threads about cables ..Most useless debates or useless fad recommendation ... a great trauma for my audiophile childhood...

You had seen it right ... 😁😊😊😊

Childhood trauma? Anyone whip you with a power cable when you were a kid for bad behavior?

The website makes all these unverified pseudo science claims that go against basic established science/engineering principles in cable/wire electronics. Of course no lab data nor mathematical formulation. That’s what people do when selling snake oil. Maybe their cables create too much "standing waves" so "the DC phase alignment" needs to be achieved (by their patented dielectric bias system). I bet it's some high quality research that can be praised by the IEEE reviewers.

I was as much a skeptic as many of you with a science background. Then came the 2010 RMAF, where Nordost demonstrated their various speaker cables, beginning with a regular copper litz from Home Depot, and working all the way up to their top-of-the-line (Walhalla? Odin? I don't remember). Even my wife, who is somehow hearing impaired could hear the difference between the electrician wire and their lowest price point cable. It was really very obvious. When the demonstration approached higher and higher price point I could hear less and less difference, however: a clear sign of diminished return. But the first three or four wires sounded indeed different and increasingly better, in the sense of more musical. So, concerning the question about burn-in: if one hears a new cable, it might indeed sound different compared to what one was used to, so far so good: but after a few days of "burn-in" it begins to sound more pleasant until it finally hits its stride. Or so it goes. What about "ear burn-in"? Could it not be that the user's ear gets increasingly adapted to the new sound until - paired with expectation bias after a considerable outlay in treasure - final epiphany happens? That would put all the "burn-in" discussion onto a more human, i.e. physiological and psychological, level IMHO. Now, as previous comments pointed out, there is indeed a sonic difference not only between the type of metal in the conductor, but - perhaps even more importantly - the material of the insulating dielectric surrounding the wire. I was surprised myself. To my ears, and in my system at least, there is a clear audible difference between speaker cables insulated with PVC and those insulated with PTFE or PE. Following Maxwell's paradigm of the signal mostly traveling by modulation of the electric field around - and not inside - the conductor, the dielectric surrounding the wire will inevitably have some sort of physical effect; whether this effect leads to an audible difference, I can only say from personal experience: when I exchanged my Mogami Gold wire (with direct contact of PVC insulation around the copper conductor) to a single wire running in a PTFE tube, but not touching it (so, the dielectric being air), the sound became immediately "sharper", more "precise" and less "muffled", absolutely no question. I did many A/B comparisons, also with friends, and the difference was clear, not huge, mind you, but really noticeable. Since then, I have all my speaker drivers re-wired with a single silver-clad copper wire of various diameters running in a PTFE tube w/o touching it. My explanation as an organic chemist is that with PVC, the wire is surrounded by many large and "soft" chlorine atoms, "soft" meaning that the electrons in the outermost shell are quite mobile (contrary to Fluorine, for example, where they are strongly tied up and therefore "hard"). To me it seems quite possible, that these massed chlorine atoms somehow interact with the electric field surrounding the wire and its signal modulation. Maybe the physicists among you can put my conjecture on more solid ground?

" basic established science/engineering principles in cable/wire electronics"

- Maybe that is not good enough to explain the difference that what different people with different hearing ability and brain function hear in their different systems with different components in different rooms. Maybe the rudimentary measurements made by the "science/engineering" community falls short when the human brain is involved. 

Simple evidence for that :

put a piece of shungite on the cable connector ends: compression of the signals ...

put a quartz piece on the ends of the same cables connector : decompression of the signals ...

now combine them and hear the result : a balance with improvement in many case... It depend of the cable quality and design ...

No cables designer working with " basic established science/engineering principles in cable/wire electronics" will do that...

By the way i designed my own devices as a shield against EMI and minerals filters : "golden plate" ( shungite+a copper external face + quartz at some point)

I dont buy tweaks...😁 I prefer homemade...

dill

2,392 posts

03-12-2024 at 09:02am

" basic established science/engineering principles in cable/wire electronics"

- Maybe that is not good enough to explain the difference that what different people with different hearing ability and brain function hear in their different systems with different components in different rooms. Maybe the rudimentary measurements made by the "science/engineering" community falls short when the human brain is involved.

I tend to agree with this statement. We measure what we CAN measure, and the measurements prove or disprove corresponding preconceived explanations of natural phenomena. So far so good. But there is a certain circularity at work: these measurements are meant to take ambiguity out of answers to certain questions only. But how about questions which have not been asked yet, either because they're considered silly, or because the underlying phenomena had not yet been noticed. As an example from my own line of work: only two generations ago, questions asking for a link between immunology and cancer were considered besides the point. I one wanted to do research in this area, funding was almost impossible to come by, because one was trying to link two separate disciplines with their own funding priorities. Only the tenacity of a determined few found out that cancer and immunology are intimately linked, leading to a completely new approach to cancer therapy (monoclonal antibodies against check-point inhibitors) and saving countless of lives in our days. Back to audio: psychoacoustics is a field of research that brings the disciplines of psychology and physiology in touch with acoustics and electronics. Now we are tasked to ask new questions and devise experiments and measurements which will provide new answers. That is how scientific progress works.

     Back in March 2022: a thread about power cords and break/burn-in was started.

     I hate to type, so: I'm going to copy/paste some of my speculations.

     That a highly complex musical signal, MIGHT affect Poynting vectors and signal speeds*, in interconnects, in a much more profound manner than a simple AC (ie: a fixed 60/50 Hz) signal, in a PC, seems likely (at least) to me, as; in EVERY formula regarding *those two, a signal's frequency (frequencies) always factors in greatly.

     Further: the above and what I'll c/p (seems to me) lends credence to how the application of a stronger, DC voltage/field, outside a dielectric (ala Synergistic MPC and Audioquest DBS systems), might stabilize those vectors and signal speeds, PERHAPS eliminating some time smear and, "burn-in". 

rodman99999 5,456 posts 03-31-2022 at 12:13am    @holmz-       Bear with me a minute, in my folly, far as a possibility on why a power cord might make a difference.       Based on some of the theories on how electricity works, simplified:       The conductor acts as a waveguide for the signal/voltage.       Within the conductor: when excited by an AC current, electrons oscillate, generating photons/electromagnetic waves that travel, always from the source, to the load.        Keep in mind: all signals (ie: music, AC) are sinusoidal  waves        Those photons/electromagnetic waves travel through and outside the dielectric, which (according to it's permittivity/Poynting vectors) will have various effects on those waves.    One of the most obvious is the dielectric's effect on the speed of the signal.       The better designers of printed circuit boards, even take the above into account, when choosing materials for their products.        I posted a link on the first page that included data on the manufacture of semiconductor chips and what was observed when materials were cryo'd, during the process.     Short version: better contact/lowered resistance between layers.           Under the scanning microscope: much smoother surfaces observed.        I would hope, by now, it's a given that various cable constructions, twists, braids, etc, can make for a cleaner transmission of signals (ie: Litz, etc).                     Just seems to me (a hypothesis): given the above (some theories and some things established/measured/proven), it's not a big stretch to believe a power cord, built of the best conductor (ie: Ohno CC silver), wrapped in a very low dielectric coefficient dielectric (ie: Teflon), cryo'd for the smoothest transfer of those photons/magnetic waves and twisted in some crazy way, might not smooth out some of perturbations/noise, from the crap an AC waveform had to go through, back to it's generator.  (run-on, much?)        I haven't tested this, actually comparing two circuits, but: it wouldn't surprise me, if a power supply that used a choke, would be less affected by a better power cord, as the former can eliminate a lot of the high freq garbage, etc, that's either created by, or makes it through all the big converting/filtering stuff, before.        Never thought about PCs before the good stuff hit the market, but: the Physics/QED made sense.             I tried 'em, I like 'em and the science makes my head feel better.                               Don't care WHAT it does to anyone else's!

rodman99999 5,456 posts 03-31-2022 at 12:27am         OH, and: it takes some time for the dielectric to form, take a charge, polarize, or however one chooses to define the process, when a dielectric is subjected to electromagnetic waves, which affects the Poynting vectors, measurably/predictably.                                             The lower the material’s dielectric constant: the longer that takes.                                                               PC (interconnect/etc)  burn-in?    Maybe?

                                                                                         Happy listening!

Unfortunately there are no measurement data or mathematical formulas to be found to back up this amazing scientific discovery. Simply “it happens”.

     I suppose: if one is determined to ignore* the facts/data gleaned, over the past’s many decades of experimentation in QED, as well as basic Electrical Theory; they may choose to infer & believe such simplistic silliness.

                             *willful ignorance = the heart of Dunning- Kruger

.

So far all I hear is that different insulating materials, because of their dielectric strength affect the current running through them but there is nothing in the literature that I'm familiar with that explains any sort of permanent change, molecular alteration, rearrangement of the atoms in the insulation in a permanent way to explain "breaking in" of a cable.  If anyone has read or knows some actual science behind this, please let us know.  Anyone?  @kingsleuy though made an interesting point about reactance in "how the cable reacts to the counter emf that the unit is trying to push back into the power cord".  Richard Heyser at Cal Tech's JPL studied this phenomenon and would publish its effects along with the rest of his reviews on speakers for "Audio Magazine", still I think, was the best reviewer out their on speaker systems and those amazing "polar plots"; well I'm getting off subject.

Another thing to consider is manufacturing impurities.

I’ve never had a piece of electronics materials I couldn’t smell when first used and heating up.  Goes away with use.  Or just time.  But usually heat and time.

Presumably whatever this is (highly dependent on what it is and how made, but usually some kind of petroleum product) has some passing effect, however slight.

As a degreed chemical/nuclear Engineer I agree w/your equation! The solution, as in a far side cartoon, is A SMALL MIRACLE OCCURs!

So far all I hear is that different insulating materials, because of their dielectric strength affect the current running through them but there is nothing in the literature that I’m familiar with that explains any sort of permanent change, molecular alteration, rearrangement of the atoms in the insulation in a permanent way to explain "breaking in" of a cable. If anyone has read or knows some actual science behind this, please let us know.

        Even the lamest of those, willing to do a bit of research, could pick up an encyclopedia (old as the 60’s-70’s) and find information on Maxwell’s equations(1873), Dielectric Absorption, Poynting’s theorem (1884) and Quantum Electrodynamics (on which we were being lectured in the 1960’s).

                                   "...actual science..."?

                          Did I mention: "willful ignorance".

                                     Another rewind:

        Anyone needing a rationale for experimenting with new cables in their system and/or feeling dissuaded by the Church of Denyin'tology's antiquated electrical doctrines: take heart!

        Many new electrical facts have been established in the past 100 years, that support audible differences, between various cables, fuses, etc.

         I couldn't find anything like, "Updated Electrical Theory For Idiots", but- did manage to find something resembling a cartoon, that even a child could follow.  It neither mentions AC/sinusoidal waves in wires, nor does it go into the photon propagation of electromagnetic waves.   It does, however, emphasize/demonstrate how Electrical Theory has progressed, since the 1800s:

              (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGJqykotjog)

        The next presupposes a certain amount of knowledge, in the field of modern Electrical Theory.   

        https://van.physics.illinois.edu/qa/listing.php?id=2348

        It's an established (measured) fact that an electromagnetic wave's propagation and speed, are dependent on the materials, of which the transmission line (cable) are made (ie: Dielectric Constant/permittivity).     The better (lower) the Dielectric Constant the better the flow and the longer it takes for that material, to become polarized.     One reason anything that comprises an RLC circuit (ie: capacitors, cables, PC boards), takes time to, "form", or, "break/burn-in".*      

          *Something that makes the Denyin'tologists apoplectic.

   https://resources.pcb.cadence.com/blog/2019-dielectric-constant-of-pcb-substrate-materials-and-signa....

https://unlcms.unl.edu/cas/physics/tsymbal/teaching/EM-914/section5-Guided_Waves.pdf

          Even the most inane (regarding the Sciences) must admit; braiding and twisting wires eliminates/reduces EMI interference.              
          That must lend credence to various cable geometries.

          That better dielectrics enhance the propagation of electromagnetic waves (ie: your music signal), lends the same credence to choosing cables with better materials (ie: Polypropylene, Teflon, air, etc).

           Of course: anything the Church of Denyin'tology's popes can't fathom, they'll summarily dismiss.

         As simple a device as a fuse is: it still carries a sinusoidal signal/voltage, ALWAYS from source to load.

                                                 NOT back and forth!

         Also (as mentioned above): any fuse acts as an RLC circuit, the 'C' of which will be determined by properties of its wave guide's/ conductor's surroundings (ie: glass, air, bee's wax, ceramic, end cap materials, etc).

          Any commonly drawn wire will exhibit a chevron pattern in its crystal lattice, so: why not "directionality" and why OHNO Continuous Cast, single crystal wire sounds better, to so many?

                   Stated above are scientifically tested, measured and proven facts. 

                                  There is no "contest", or "dispute" involved.

         The OP mentions Maxwell, but: obviously they have no understanding of his theory and possible ramifications as regards the above.

          Anyone that feels compelled to harp on not hearing any differences, is obviously too obtuse to understand the term "variables" (as frequently mentioned) and worthy of disregard.

          My only goal in these threads has ever been to encourage those with a mind to experiment with their systems, based on the latest (20th/21st Century's) findings of ACTUAL Physics/science and ignore the Cargo Cult's incessant runway building (objections, convolutions, deflections and obfuscations).

                                                       Happy listening!

Cords and Cables are simple. First ... ignore all sales pitches.

Then:

1. If you are happy with your system don’t change any cords or cables.

1a. If you are at minimum 80% happy then you might get that last % from some new cables or cords.

2. If you do NOT HEAR any changes with a new cord or cable, then do not change.

2a. Also do not post as if you are The Divine.

PVC and PETE have different dielectric constants that affect the properties of the cables between the two PETE has a lower Dk so absorbs less electric charge consequently it's a better insulating material for audio cables. (the other way around for capacitors) But this is not the issue here. The problem is this novel behavior of dielectric macromolecules in cable electronics according to the  website. I suggest their research be submitted to the IEEE review board for authentication. This could be someone's PhD dissertation and publishable in a high impact engineering journal.

I was going to make a separate thread about the magic dielectric bias system but decided not to. I'm aware that there are similar magic fairy lamps used in the cable selling industry - MPC Network Box etc.. as one member stated they could simply use magic stones like shungite/quartz instead of spending money on tooling extra labor to attach those magic lamps to their expensive cables and name them like "time-dependent (hence 200 hrs of burn-in time required) dielectric wave quantumiser" or some other extra fancy pseudo-science nomenclature. My speaker cables are the Kimber 8tc that I bought many years ago and I would say they're "good enough" I would like repeat "good enough"

I use two pairs of the 8tc to connect my monoblocks (actually a pair of stereo amps) to the speakers and use their interconnect cables as well. I once had a chance to try their very thick top of the line speaker cables (select?) on my system and found no audible difference or perhaps my brain rejected to believe there's any but I was confident that it wasn't obvious like upgrading from the Monster to the 8tc. If I ever get to buy new speaker cables or interconnects I will buy from amazon. I already bought amazon power cables and I love them the search words are "10awg audiophile power cable". If you had $1000 to spend to improve your audio system you would want to upgrade your DAC. Yes all thanks for the Chinese.

Now if you had $10000 to spend then you would invest in a pure class A amplifier(s) that is capable of doubling the output power as the load impedance gets halved and a pure linear preamp that has a constant gain through its operating range and has two sets of balanced outputs. If you have that knowledge and skills you can build (or re-build) your own dream amplifier(s) and preamp. buy two identical old Krell or Levinson power amps and get their circuit diagrams somewhere. then you'll be  relying on computer modeling to re-design the amp to produce the correct values that you want. Of course you must use the finest components available to achieve this goal such as ultra precision resistors and capacitors from Japan. For the preamp you can this volume potentiometer from a company in Korea I know it's outrageously expensive but such an engineering marvel, a perfect linearity Vo=aVi+0, a is the gain factor constant and 0 is zero. A $1000 power cable with a magic lamp attached or a $1000 volume potentiometer with its data sheet. It took me about 200 hours to complete the project and I invested most of my weekends for 6 month. Well this is a different topic and i'm too tire to write any longer