The molecular level explanation of "cable burn-in"

I don't know why.but I had to do like this. maybe it was too long? anyways weird

I guess, since you are a member of the "good enough" crowd.

Instead of arguing without end about what most cannot verify nor understand completely anyway i proposed in my post above a simple experiment...😊

Nobody payed attention...😊

Most people prefer to buy something as a new cable for example especially a costlier one as programmed consumers they prefer purchase than making experiments. I know that...

Now this is my post above :

«Simple evidence for that :

put a piece of shungite on the cable connector ends: compression of the signals ...

put a quartz piece on the ends of the same cables connector : decompression of the signals ...

now combine them and hear the result : a balance with improvement in many case... It depend of the cable quality and design ...

No cables designer working with " basic established science/engineering principles in cable/wire electronics" will do that...

By the way i designed my own devices as a shield against EMI and minerals filters : "golden plate" ( shungite+a copper external face + quartz at some point for a better acoustic balance)

I dont buy tweaks...😁 I prefer homemade...»

Now think a second about what i said about shungite and quartz...

Think...

And read that :

"Quartz is an excellent electric insulating material and presents the following electrical properties: electrical resistivity (350°): 7×107 ohm x cm. dielectric constant (20°C – 1MHz): 3,76."

"Despite the poorly ordered structure, shungite has a relatively high electrical conductivity [50,51]. The resistivity of shungite-1 is about 1 Ω cm, whereas the resistivity of shungite-3 is about 10 Ω cm [50]."

«Another carbonaceous filler used in the present work was shungite. Shungite is a mineral that has recently increased in popularity. Shungite is a microheterogeneous natural mineral complex containing non-crystalline carbon, silicates, a small quantity of metal oxides, and organic additives [31,32]. Originally, shungite was described thanks to the resources obtained near the village of Shunga (Russia). Shungite rocks are classified into five types depending on the carbon content. Some deposits consist of almost pure carbon (up to 98% by weight, so-called type I). The most popular variant of shungite is type III (with a carbon content of 20–35 wt.%) [33,34]. Shungite may differ in structure and properties, depending on the place of origin. Shungite is a hard mineral with a compact structure and black color. Its density, depending on the variety, ranges between 2.04 and 2.25 g/cm³. Due to the fact that shungite contains nanotubes and fullerenes in its structure, this mineral is highly porous. Shungite also exhibits conductive properties and considerable mechanical strength [35,36,37]. Its modulus of elasticity is the highest among all of the carbon materials, including graphite. Taking into account the reactivity of shungite, it can be observed that it is more reactive than coke and, at the same time, more resistant to the oxidation process than graphite»

Antonets, I.V.; Golubev, Y.A.; Shcheglov, V.I.; Sun, S. Electromagnetic shielding effectiveness of lightweight and flexible ultrathin shungite plates. Curr. Appl. Phys. 2021, 29, 97–106

I think once a cable is burnt IN (best to measure that time), then you can only use it for 2x the burn in time before it is so altered that it is burnt OUT (you know those atoms and molecules get so dizzy from changing around that they start twisting the sound bites). But the shroom stash that made me hear the difference between un burnt, burnt IN and burnt OUT cable is now also gone. Darn. Shopping Amazon for pixel dust now. Do you SMOKE pixel dust or make cookies with it?

"....there are no measurement data or mathematical formulas to be found to back up this amazing scientific discovery...."

Therefore, at least according to the way I understand science, there was no scientific discovery, even of the mundane kind.

God bless credulous individuals: they keep capitalism humming along.

My speaker cables have achieved greater transparency and neutrality in their sound reproduction abilities due to the introduction of concentrated and directed external sound focused to aid in the cable's molecular strand orientation. You can achieve this at home with any system by shouting at your cables, that's right, shouting at your cables! It's best to perform this exercise with no music playing since you do not want any reproduced musical signal to interfere with the intended orientation you are trying to achieve. Very simply, stand over each run of cable and while leaning over, cup your hands and shout. It doesn't matter what you shout. It can be something like, "Get in line you stupid cable, YOU SOUND LIKE GARBAGE, you need to get your particles in line so you sound better." Shout, loudly, 3 to 4 times for the left channel and 3 to 4 times for the right channel. Preferably leave the door to your home or apartment open so you don't induce any acoustic feedback or echo which could unduly affect the molecular orientation you are trying to achieve. Now that you've completed this no-cost upgrade to your speaker cables, put on your favorite reference music, sit back and listen critically and don't tell me you can't hear an improvement in transparency and neutrality, presence, and overall inching closer to the absolute sound of real music reproduced in your home. If not, repeat the exercise described above until you can hear improvement. Trust me, be patient, it will come. 

The best joke and sarcastic sentence must be short...

Your post is not even humorous...

Welcome here though... You will perhaps learn ...

My sincere best ... 😊

My speaker cables have achieved greater transparency and neutrality in their sound reproduction abilities due to the introduction of concentrated and directed external sound focused to aid in the cable's molecular strand orientation. You can achieve this at home with any system by shouting at your cables, that's right, shouting at your cables! It's best to perform this exercise with no music playing since you do not want any reproduced musical signal to interfere with the intended orientation you are trying to achieve. Very simply, stand over each run of cable and while leaning over, cup your hands and shout. It doesn't matter what you shout. It can be something like, "Get in line you stupid cable, YOU SOUND LIKE GARBAGE, you need to get your particles in line so you sound better." Shout, loudly, 3 to 4 times for the left channel and 3 to 4 times for the right channel. Preferably leave the door to your home or apartment open so you don't induce any acoustic feedback or echo which could unduly affect the molecular orientation you are trying to achieve. Now that you've completed this no-cost upgrade to your speaker cables, put on your favorite reference music, sit back and listen critically and don't tell me you can't hear an improvement in transparency and neutrality, presence, and overall inching closer to the absolute sound of real music reproduced in your home. If not, repeat the exercise described above until you can hear improvement. Trust me, be patient, it will come.

In my 40+ years of audiophile listening, I do believe that break-in of speaker cables and interconnects is necessary and happens.  I don't prescribe to know the physics behind it however it's been a phenomenon I've experienced many times over with a variety of cables, inexpensive to expensive.  I recently purchased a set of Iconoclast speaker cables and interconnects.  I really appreciate the time Iconoclast (Galen Gareis) took to develop his white paper on speaker cable design.  I really like how the cables perform in my system.  While they don' specify a break in period, after about 100 hours of play they have smoothed out and sounded for lack of a better work more refined.  They have a few conductor choices of copper-types and one with silver plated copper.  They say each measures the same, but the types of conductor do sound different.  

theskipperthree - member since 2007, never posted anything until today and this was the best you could come up with?

Back in the eighties, I bought a pair of expensive IC’s. Until that, all I ever used were the thin cheap cables that came with cd players. OMG was the difference huge! From that point on, I believe that cables mattered.  In the last four years, I’ve bought seven power cables (all $500 and under.) and to be honest, I’ve not heard a lick of difference, but I definitely am not going to yell and call people names because they can hear something that I cannot. Maybe someday I’ll be able to try some expensive cables and see if then I can hear an improvement. But until that time comes, why should I care what others think? Or how others spend their money?  When it comes to HIFI, I trust my ears and not others beliefs.

I believe that I can hear the difference between cables that I have put into my system.  The physics of why that is the case . . . I haven't the slightest idea, although it seems like manufacturers believe that they need to say something to explain why you need to fork over sometimes big $$ beyond "buy my cable . . . it sounds better" and we end up with a bunch of technogobbledygook that probably has nothing to do with why the cable sounds different but sounds very scientific -- MIT, I am thinking of your "poles of articulation" nonsense.  So, the debate regarding why cables sound different continues and until some group designs a method of doing a real A/B blind test that eliminates any variances other than the cable, this debate will go on and on.

This brings me to the next logical point.  If it sounds different, shouldn't that show up in some sort of measurement on REW, or an oscilloscope, or at least something? If not, why not?

https://forum.audiogon.com/posts/2669277 

@dill. I take objection to your post. That attitude would seem to place you in the 1% crowd who seemingly has sufficient resources to continue to upgrade equipment seeking to lift that final veil and achieve nirvana. For the rest of us 99 percenters. we are resigned to reach a point of good enough.

Being a KEF fan and owning a pair of R3 Metas, the implication is that I shouldn't be happy until I have a pair of Muons sitting in my living room. Just maybe I'm unwilling to sell or mortgage my house or clean out my retirement accounts in order to meet you lofty standards. Yes, I am a proud member of the good enough club.

llg98ljk - Your comments about me are not accurate and if you read the other posts by classicrockfan you would understand where I am coming from.

"the implication is that I shouldn’t be happy until I have a pair of Muons sitting in my living room."

- I made no implication to you of any kind.

@liquidsound 
And some people believe there is a man in the sky with a white beard that will take care of them when they die, if only that they would behave. They do believe this really happens.

@llg98ljk ​​​​​​
You don't need a lot of money to get to audio nirvana. I have spent about $45,000...over a period of 56 years. That's about $820 a year. My wife spends more than that on cigarettes.

I hope to finish with my essay on my 56 year journey soon, and I will post it here.

Oh, mahgister, you silly. Just having a little fun with a topic that gets a lot of disagreement and rightfully so. Learn, happy to, we’re always learning. But your tone was more of an arrogant remark than anything worth noting. And yes, Dill, a member since 2007 and just posting now for the first time. (Doesn’t that tell you something?) like Facebook, this forum strikes me as an enormous waste of time. There’s a big world out there. I enjoy reading about this hobby that I inherited a love for from my father who was in it from the early days when I too was bitten by the audiophile bug. But I’m now regretting my little satirical contribution to this forum. My own fault, I kind of saw it coming. I’ll continue to read what interests me, but you’ll never hear from me again. Caio.

@rodman99999  ;-))) 

curiousjim

I bought a pair of expensive IC’s. Until that, all I ever used were the thin cheap cables that came with cd players. OMG was the difference huge! From that point on, I believe that cables mattered.  In the last four years, I’ve bought seven power cables (all $500 and under.) and to be honest, I’ve not heard a lick of difference, but I definitely am not going to yell and call people names because they can hear something that I cannot.

Very true! thanks for the input. Good audio cables do make a difference but power cables don't. Just get one 10 or 12awg from amazon These days you can find plenty of excellent audio/power cables on amazon/ebay 10x - 100x cheaper than those major brands. I would spend money to upgrade dac/amps/speakers (if i had extra thousands to spend)

Sorry to loose you...

But i just say the truth about your too long sarcasm which is not really original... cables matter for many people here then sarcasm must be short and sweet... sarcasm should be a wink, not a long, unoriginal mockery...

i welcome you anyway...

Now because as a child who go sulk in his corner and announce he will never return you wait for what ? Sympathy ? Buy a dog...😉

Or stay here because as empathic as a  dog i feel sad that you leave in this way speaking such...Really...

By the way your judgement is too narrow and centered on you... This forum is not a waste of time for everybody...it is for some and not so much for others... In life we are all in different situation and different needs... Cables, friend, information etc there is all opinions here about all that...

I am retired and i appreciate everybody even those with whom i may disagree... i like too much discussing here and not staying alone... I am not perfect... 😊

Whatever your decision will be i wish you the very best....

Oh, mahgister, you silly. Just having a little fun with a topic that gets a lot of disagreement and rightfully so. Learn, happy to, we’re always learning. But your tone was more of an arrogant remark than anything worth noting. And yes, Dill, a member since 2007 and just posting now for the first time. (Doesn’t that tell you something?) like Facebook, this forum strikes me as an enormous waste of time. There’s a big world out there. I enjoy reading about this hobby that I inherited a love for from my father who was in it from the early days when I too was bitten by the audiophile bug. But I’m now regretting my little satirical contribution to this forum. My own fault, I kind of saw it coming. I’ll continue to read what interests me, but you’ll never hear from me again. Caio.

@theskipperthree
I am with mahgister: too long by a factor of 5, and if it was really that funny, ok.

Life is short. Jokes: shorter still, preferably.

maghister

I am retired and i appreciate everybody even those with whom i may disagree... i like too much discussing here and not staying alone... I am not perfect..

Of course... keep warm & healthy!!!

The dielectric in your equation is effectively an insulator and as such does not absorb current. One of the fundamental laws of electrical theory is that current takes the least path of resistance. In this case the copper. It's as simple and as complicated as that. And if this magical formula does exist, the AC power is further altered in the amp and and in no way does it impact the path of the sound signals.

                   Time for another rewind:

       ie: Inescapable FACT: No one understands exactly how electricity works.     

                         That’s why there’s so much Electrical THEORY.     

      The number of Wiki-Scientists on these pages, attempting to win the IG-Nobel Prize in Pseudo-Physics, is always amusing.             

       Whenever some highly educated person actually does discover exactly how electricity functions, they’ll be lauded by the scientific community, will have solved some of the disparities between Relativity and Quantum Mechanics, receive a Nobel and we’ll hear about it.     

      Newton’s THEORIES were largely superseded by Einstein and Bohr's.   Then came Feynman’s.       For now; none of you can absolutely prove your statements (theories), regarding electricity, FUSES, wires, or anything else, as regards our systems.    

             The following articles, read in sequence, illustrate my point:

 https://www.thegreatcoursesdaily.com/how-einstein-challenged-newtonian-physics/     

      then:

  http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/Forces/qed.html#:~:text=Quantum%20 electrodynamics%2C%20co....               

       and: 

https://bigthink.com/hard-science/an-updated-feynman-experiment-could-heal-the-rift-between-quantum-mechanics-and-general-relativity/

     Much of the foregoing conversation, only shows that not all Physics courses are equal.

                                ie: @carlsbad2 -

     As a Physicist: to what theory do you lean*, regarding lambda?

                        * There is NO wrong answer!

     Could/would you honestly say, that opinion jives with your Prof's?

                        Electrical Engineering courses?

                                FA'GET ABOUT IT!

Sorry for extending our weekly cable exercise, but here’s way for everyone to sleep at night without worrying about the last electron’s alignment.

One of the running jokes of my 40 years in graphic design end of the ad agency business is the never ending stream of client side comments like “can you just res-up this 80k jpeg to use on my 40 ft bus graphic?”

There is no res-up magic on a raster file. Period. The digital information is not there. We do employ very talented desktop designers. They can create a vector file based on the image in your thumbnail. BUT, we will charge you the “Rembrandt Rate” and it will be a super-realistic original creation.

Fast forward to our hobby, and the journey a recording takes from the time players and singers perform a song and when an electrical signal vibrates a surface that vibrates a listener’s ear drum.

Perfect reproduction is an impossible dream. In the audiophile world, each stage of signal capture, voltage reduction, voltage amplification and sound wave creation is subject to somebody’s skilled “Rembrandt Rate” applying their expertise to the creation of something that moves the electrical footprint forward in a way that best preserves the impression of the sound waves created for the recording. Just like an oft copied page run through as a copy of a copy of a copy, each step reimages the original.

My point is the same as Paul from PS Audio. Even as a maker of high end gear, he clearly states “nobody hears the signal” and the single most important investment in your system is your speakers, because they create the sound pressure that moves your ear drums.

Everything. All of it. Is in the ear of the beholder. The value of each piece of gear in your system is not an absolute. It is some company’s commercial effort to interpret (not reproduce) a performance that a buyer values as pleasing and accurate. Uber cable or lamp cord. Transparent bright or warm big baffle speaker. Every version of the “Rembrandt Rate” is out there. The actual value of that investment exists only in the space between your ear drums and your brain,

    If the first link, in my above post, isn't working for the (genuinely) interested:

https://theconversation.com/from-newton-to-einstein-the-origins-of-general-relativity-50013

                                      Happy listening!

@tomic601  (love that moniker)-

         Thanx (I think?)!   

               ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

@unreceivedogma   Oh you silly Santa denier !  

@liquidsound 
Well, I've been called names before, but this takes the cake. 🤯

           I always thought we were supposed to leave cookies!

@theskipperthree
I am with mahgister: too long by a factor of 5, and if it was really that funny, ok.

Life is short. Jokes: shorter still, preferably.

I must confess my jokes are not always good but short most of the times..

I plead guilty though of writing  too long post...

«My God!  Can i say the bible is too long»-- Groucho Marx 🤓

A joke like a cable must be well insulated and not too long and never cheap.😊

A joke is way better if a bit twisted.

The set of Poynting vectors of a joke is your actual smile when you said it and the potential smiles of others receiving it.

@retrocrownfan -

My point is the same as Paul from PS Audio. Even as a maker of high end gear, he clearly states “nobody hears the signal” and the single most important investment in your system is your speakers, because they create the sound pressure that moves your ear drums.

       And yet: Paul recognizes/realizes that, "capacitors and dielectrics" DO change their characteristics, over time and with use.

                  https://www.psaudio.com/blogs/pauls-posts/the-break-in-myth

Just like an oft copied page run through as a copy of a copy of a copy, each step reimages the original.

...“can you just res-up this 80k jpeg to use on my 40 ft bus graphic?”

      NOT the same as trying to increase the size of a digital image, with a limited number of pixels and retain resolution!

      An analog musical signal's voltage and/or current is increased, in every gain stage.   That's WHY: the more faithfully the signal's innate properties are retained in the process and the cleaner the power (from the wall, cord, fuse and PS), the more faithfully the resultant signal, when it reaches your speakers for reproduction.

       More akin to the images of an IMAX, 35mm film being increased in size, to fill the huge screen, on which it's viewed.

        If the bulb that produces the light is compromised, or the lens is dirty: the image won't have it's intended resolution, regardless of it's original clarity.

I could be mistaking, however I don't see a long visit by the classicrockfan on AudiogoN.

rodman99999

the cleaner the power (from the wall, cord, fuse and PS), the more faithfully the resultant signal, when it reaches your speakers for reproduction.

Do you know what EMI filter does and where it's located and how those x/y capacitors and common mode chokes work together to swamp out all EM interference noise that the power line picks up right from the power grid (not just the last 5 feet from the wall outlet) to your audio equipment. Yes the EMI filter should swamp out all RF signal from the power cable so the noise can't make it through the power supply of the audio unit. You just need a cable big enough to carry the current without heating up. And that's why you don't need a power conditioner either to clean the AC power from the wall outlet.

I bought amazon power cables for less than 50 and I love them because they please my eyes. They don't make my audio system sound any better than the stock power cord. What about $1000 power cables? A total waste of money. Nonetheless we all know "placebo effect" is alive and well so you'd believe a $1000 cable/the magic oil lamp makes your system sound better because you feel better about it.

@rodman99999 All good…. i’m mostly in your camp… The moniker is my favorite salmon fishing plug… A serious boat and multi-quarry season make high end audio SEEM affordable ….

Ido hang out a few hours a day working in the Quantum computing aka bleeding edge industry… A great read for the Luddites is of course Surely You’re Joking Mr. Feynman.

While, i also fondly miss Almarg, i think he would like myself be the first to say we don’t as yet know everything and that lots of very interesting science is happening outside of Physics and EE. My memory is he worked on radar gear…. my own experience w phased arrays both orbital and not is that the absolute frontier of high performance is… still partly a black art. …..

I parse my consumption of threads like this…mostly to define who to skip over and who to focus on….. love to learn…

Of course, i believe forming a dielectric  and maintaining that state is important…. the amplifiers i use have a 128v DBS circuit for just that purpose…..

You ( those high on PS audio advice on speakers…should poke Paul about Octave and the microphone collection / selection…. my position would be work transducers hard… and for those in the digital world, PRAY they used a fantastic A2D….

@classicrockfan -

Is F=ma one of his theories? I know his theory of gravitation but not sure about his other theories.

    The main of the EFEs I'm thinking of is: G+A= kT, but- if the, "a" in your formula is lamda: YES!      We're on the same page.

     You do realize: that you own Kimber products, already puts you in the, "better cable" klan, right?

      Kimber (to my knowledge) has never made an inferior product, or- one that didn't punch above it's price range, as some would say.

       If you read my prior post, regarding how I'd suggest a power cable might be designed, you'll note my mention of Teflon dielectric and Litz.    Your 8TC speaker cables are a big Teflon dielectric, Litz (braided) cable.

       The design has been, "good enough" for a LOT of people, for a LOT of years and why they're still being made.

       They're good enough for my driven subwoofers and I could probably live with them on my mains (though I'd rather have 12TC), if I ever had to give up my Big Silver Ovals).

        Even Kimber's PBJ will outperform a lot of higher priced cables, IF your appetite leans towards a more faithful signal transfer.

         I had Heroes on a couple sources, a few decades back.   Tried a number of other of the better regarded brands and have been using pairs of KS1030 and KS1130, for the past 20ish.    I just feel they've remained consistent with the rest of my components and their upgrades.

"Do you know what EMI filter does" and so on.

         Yes.   I've a few decades of electronic repair, restoration, upgrading and building, behind my comments.

          One thing even the most inane EE should recognize: however good the filter, the cleaner whatever goes in: the less work the filter has to do and the cleaner the output.

           Typically: the first upgrades and/or replacements  I address in whatever the component, are in the power supply, because: that's to what you're going to be listening.

           I also mentioned that a power supply with a choke may respond less, to a high dollar PC, as they clean up a lot of what makes it through the rectifiers, x-former, caps, etc.

                                              Happy listening!

Two Styrofoam cups and 20 feet of string works great for me.

I order drinks from my wife, Wilma, in the kitchen for my friend Barney and me.

Fred,

Yabadabbadoo!

rodman99999

Thanks for all your inputs. Filtration through the common mode choke EMI combined with galvanic isolation of the transformer should be able to eliminate unwanted signal noise completely. This is not my opinion but one of the established principles of signal electronics. But I agree with you on "   however good the filter, the cleaner whatever goes in: the less work the filter has to do and the cleaner the output." Happy listening!

You got the usual response from the folks who have crap for audio systems, can’t be bothered to try, or have genetically inferior hearing.

That said I think you have left out a lot for other factors on cable break in.

One of many others that can’t ignore is that electrons are physical particles and are charge aligned as they leave an amp. .
flowing thru a cable with metallurgical imperfections will cause the electrons to bounce around and get displaced in relation to each other. Overtime some level of these Imperfections will get smoothened out just like water will do to rocks overtime.

This I also believe is another factor for break in. I am sure there are more reasons causing us with better audio systems and ears to experience cable break in differences.

@tomic601 -

                                  As I've mentioned in the past:

     Feynman was and will remain, my favorite lecturer (yeah: I'm that old).

     He mentioned often (and: I took to heart) his favorite Rule of Life: "Never stop learning!"

     For all his genius, he never grew overly confident in his beliefs.    The perfect obverse to the Dunning-Kruger sufferer.

     ie:  “I can live with doubt and uncertainty and not knowing. I think it is much more interesting to live not knowing than to have answers that might be wrong.”

     and: “I have approximate answers, and possible beliefs, and different degrees of certainty about different things, but I’m not absolutely sure of anything.”

     Tesla is probably my favorite innovator, who (despite the incessant, projectile vomit, from his day's naysayers), took the World, kicking and screaming, into the 20th century, with his inventions.

                                                  His thoughts: 

     “Anti-social behavior is a trait of intelligence in a world full of conformists.”

     “All that was great in the past was ridiculed, condemned, combatted, suppressed, only to emerge all the more powerfully, all the more triumphantly from the struggle.”

                                                Happy listening!

rodman99999

 Tesla is probably my favorite innovator, who (despite the incessant, projectile vomit, from his day's naysayers), took the World, kicking and screaming, into the 20th century, with his inventions.

I agree! He was one of the greatest electrical engineers/physicists/inventors who ever lived... all of his work done based on science/engineering principles. What if he were still alive would he ever want to know about all these snake oil DBS/articulation console/network box and cable burn-in and power conditioners and tweaks. He would scream "i don't do snake oil"

I actually want to learn more about the dielectric bias system. Where can I get its data sheet and an actual sample? It may really work... a real magic oil lamp that takes us on a magic carpet ride.