The molecular level explanation of "cable burn-in"
According to one cable seller
"The insulation (or dielectric) will absorb energy from the conductor when a current is flowing (i.e. when music is playing). This energy-absorption causes the dielectric's molecules to re-arrange themselves from a random order into a uniform order. When the molecules have been rearranged, the dielectric will absorb less energy & consequently cause less distortion."
So it’s the plastic polymer (as dielectric insulation) to undergo some sort of molecular rearrangements to minimize the distortion. Probably one of the greatest scientific discoveries ever!
“Many premium AC cords constrict or compress the audio transient as their characteristic impedance restricts the transient current.”
We all know impedance restricts current but how possibly “many” premium AC cords constrict/compress the audio transient (when not carrying audio signal)? Then again is it achieved by this molecular rearrangements of the cable insulation?
Unfortunately there are no measurement data or mathematical formulas to be found to back up this amazing scientific discovery. Simply “it happens”. So I came up with a formula for them.
Back in the 70s I was charged with manufacturing and calibration of microvolemtric lab equipment to the 6th place (microgram by mass). We decided to mold the bodies of these handheld piupetters and dilutors out of PFVD, a remarkably nice, hard, moldable and machinable fluorocarbon with full chemical (except fluorines) inertness. After being in the market across hundreds of labs internationally we found that a percentage of the bodies developed a small but VERY conspicuous crack that, although innocuous, was not acceptable. We found that indeed the PVDF, like its softer cousins, cold-flowed across time. In that sense one could imagine the "rearrangement" of molecules mentioned and derided above. We found that we could accelerate the proicess by simply applying heat and pressure for a few minutes (as in a clinical lab/dentist's autoclave), wherein the PVDF then quickly reset due to the thermal shock...and then remained completely stable for many years (as far as could be ascertained). Is this cold-flow "curing" part of the so-called burn-in (npi) audio process. I doubt it. But still...?
The other aspect I wish to mention is the possibility that break-in is associated with the build-up of statis micro-voltages when handling cables in dry winter rooms. These charges have to quench to ground. My latest experience with my (ArgentPur) cables is that speaker cables may require 0-100hrs burn to fully "open up", whereas folks are saying that ICs do not. This leads me to question whether the delta is correlated with mass or length (spkr cables are bigger/longer), or usually on a static-charged rug!
Let’s hear from cable manufacturers about "cable burn-in". National Wire and Cable Corporation is one of the few good cable manufacturers in America actually do wire drawing/annealing/stranding/extrusion etc.. All the major brands (cable resellers) buy bulk cables from these manufacturers (or from china) and do cutting/terminating/seasoning with snake oil (extra jackets and all pseudo science magic lamps dielectric bias art console network or other passive RF filters (???) and stabilizers etc..)/packaging them to sell. Ask the actual manufacturers for their opinion on cable burn-in. They will give you an honest and direct answer to the question. "No there is no such thing as cable burn in." And ask about those magic oil lamps.
All my coworkers told me to stop wasting my weekends on this forum. And the weather gets better recently in the bay area.
You think the full history of the world is summarized on a Wikipedia page?? Thats hilarious..talk about gullible!
Not going to bother talking here anymore, tried to have a light conversation and people run around with pitchforks, looking for every typo or slip up to discredit you as if this were a courtroom instead of hobbyists sharing with each other. I'm not here to prove anything, just share interesting things I've come across. What joke.
I guess if you think the whole world is out to get you, you take on this attitude in life. I don't and hopefully won't ever be like that.
it is clear to me not by scientific dogmatic faith or by proven scientific controlled experiments, not even by the cables marketters, but by simple experiment anybody can replicate that some minerals near the end of any connectors affect the sound quality perception ...
i even designed my own protective and filtering devices ....Homemade.... I proposed a simple experiment above and nobody dare to try it by blind faith or deaf indifference ... 😊
Since the many years i came in audio threads i read discussion without ends where all kind of scientists, real one or pseudo one with all variation of experiences , technicians , cables designers , amateurs of cables etc war against one another...
i am not qualified at all to separate the one who knows from those who dont and all in between in electro- magnetism facts ...
But being a grown up i devised the above experiment with shungite and quartz , after few years of others experiments to design my own "tweaks" homemade ...
it taught me that there is something about the audible effects of some minerals near any piece of gear cables or not ...
i even described the effect...
i can even put science litterature article confirming my above statement about sound qualities associated with shungite and quartz , their differences etc ...
it is better to experiment than to quarrel about the greatest electro-magnetic "balls"...
i will lost the contest anyway being a "poet" and a philosopher not a physicist ... 😊
«I always see Poynting vectors in my shower»--Groucho Marx🤓
Did you get paid to write the story or what's the purpose? Bizarre... it seems you're desperate to prove 'cable burn-in' is real what for? What really grabbed my attention was " I saw CalTech guys talking about it on YouTube" I tried to find the youtube video but couldn't. Could you please share the video with me with us? Or you just wanted to destroy her reputation? I thought this school motto was corny I never paid attention until now "The truth shall make you free"
I keep getting this question about me being negative and not contributing. Being truthful as an electrical engineer is how I contribute to this forum.
audphile1
"What we’ve been discussing is molecular explanation of cable burn in"
So cable burn-in not only induces molecular rearrangements of dielectric molecules but triggers molecular expansion to absorb less energy. Do you even know the transition temperature for plastic dielectric macromolecules to get transformed into rearrangements and expansion? Cables will burn out! Just more pseudo science nonsense because you don't really know.
It may have been the telegraph. regardless, theres a whole documentary on it that discusses the huge research that went into cables ...
You seem to be very confused about transatlantic cables. Perhaps you should watch your documentary again.
... when the first cable was laid under the Atlantic and people tried to make a transcontinental telephone call, the sound came out skewed in time, noisy and garbled. They checked the cable along the ocean floor and it was in perfect condition and insulated.
That’s not even remotely true. Why are you trying to revise history?
It may have been the telegraph. regardless, theres a whole documentary on it that discusses the huge research that went into cables at the time when they designed the transatlantic one, including the papers written by the scientists (the Maxwell guys) trying to solve the distorted signal, photos from meetings they had, and how they discovered it was the material choice used for the insulation and not the conductor that caused the problem. The documentary dovetails into interviewing modern power grid engineers discussing how crucial the cable sheathing is and how they go about choosing it depending on applications for proper transmission. But im sure thats all snake oil because random people on the internet can’t hear a difference in their cables.
What we’ve been discussing is molecular explanation of cable burn in.
... which has absolutely nothing to do with the first transatlantic telephone cables, notwithstanding the claims made by clustrocasual. So now we can move on.
The first official transatlantic phone call took place 94 years ago, on January 7, 1927. The call was held between the President of America's AT&T company, Walter S. Gifford, and the head of the British General Post Office, Sir Evelyn P. Murray. The call was not transmitted by wire, but by radio waves.
So when the first cable was laid under the Atlantic and people tried to make a transcontinental telephone call, the sound came out skewed in time, noisy and garbled.
This is fiction. For one thing, the first transatlantic cables preceded telephony and were used only for telegraph.
... they consulted the best physicists out there, including one guy in England (forget his name) who was a student of Maxwell. He proposed that the cable insulation material, not the conductor, was the problem, which turned out to be true. The dielectric was distorting the sound ...
Again, fiction. Telegraphs work with dots and dashes, so I’m not sure how you think the sound was "distorted." The insulator did fail but there was nothing exotic about the failure - the material simply couldn’t withstand the environment and it decayed.
The first transatlantic telephone cables were installed in the 1950s and worked reliably well into the 1970s.
for the enlightened anecdote about Maxwell and cables...
It is why i proposed the simple experiment above which is way more instructive than raging discussion about electro-magnetic concepts theory ( quantum or not ) for most people😁 :
You put quartz on the connectors : Decompression of sound among other impressions ...
You put shungite on the connectors : it produce more a compressive impression ...
You put the two and the effect can be generally positive and more balanced...
But the effect will be perceived slightly differently function of each system synergy and each cable specs...
i believe in my experiments it is how i learned what i learned not by buying a hundred of gear upgrades...
And i am not an electrical engineer , only someone who spoke with someone who spoke with someone who spoke with someone who spoke with Prof. Feynman... 😉
Interesting story :
So when the first cable was laid under the Atlantic and people tried to make a transcontinental telephone call, the sound came out skewed in time, noisy and garbled. They checked the cable along the ocean floor and it was in perfect condition and insulated.
They consulted the best physicists out there, including one guy in England (forget his name) who was a student of Maxwell. He proposed that the cable insulation material, not the conductor, was the problem, which turned out to be true. The dielectric was distorting the sound. its the same reason high tension power lines have an air gap between them and the earth.
Most burn-in has to do with the changes that take place between the outer layers of the conductor and the dielectric, changing the speed which result in phase interferences that we hear as noise or resonance. this has been clear to real physicists since the first telephone cable... also, I saw CalTech guys talking about it on YouTube..they know, and have to know when doing ultra high end EE like semi-conductor stuff. There was even someone who talked about their elementary school class where they ran DC current into crystals and observed the changes that occurred over time, something like that.
So when the first cable was laid under the Atlantic and people tried to make a transcontinental telephone call, the sound came out skewed in time, noisy and garbled. They checked the cable along the ocean floor and it was in perfect condition and insulated.
They consulted the best physicists out there, including one guy in England (forget his name) who was a student of Maxwell. He proposed that the cable insulation material, not the conductor, was the problem, which turned out to be true. The dielectric was distorting the sound. its the same reason high tension power lines have an air gap between them and the earth.
Most burn-in has to do with the changes that take place between the outer layers of the conductor and the dielectric, changing the speed which result in phase interferences that we hear as noise or resonance. this has been clear to real physicists since the first telephone cable... also, I saw CalTech guys talking about it on YouTube..they know, and have to know when doing ultra high end EE like semi-conductor stuff. There was even someone who talked about their elementary school class where they ran DC current into crystals and observed the changes that occurred over time, something like that.
"none of the above makes sense a good example of pseudo-science"
Interesting that you seem to appreciate Tesla, his innovations and inventions, and yet: fail to recognize that virtually everything he did was based on the theories I've mentioned prior, in this thread and elsewhere on this site (ie: Field Theory, Wave Function, etc).
"pseudo-science" ??
Another rewind, based on some general observations and that should shed further light on the subject of modern (post 1800's) science/Electrical Theory and how we've benefitted from what you choose to call, "pseudo-science".
Cargo cults are religious practices that have appeared in many traditional tribal societies in the wake of interaction with technologically advanced cultures.
Do a bit of research and you'll learn those primitives were limited in their understanding of what they saw with their eyes, based on their prior experience, education and BIASES.
A rewind:
It isn't that the Denyin'tologists are ignorant.
It's they're knowing* so much, that's WRONG.
*heart of the Dunning-Kruger Effect
OR, two:
The Church of the Naysayer Doctrine (like every other faith-based, religious cult) has as many dopes as it does Popes.
Bring up anything resembling SCIENCE/PHYSICS, dated later than the 1800’s and they become apoplectic, not having the formal education to comprehend the concepts, or- possible ramifications. THAT would be hilarious, were it not so pathetic!
Gimme That Old Time Religion, Gimme That Old Time Religion, etc.
At the very first mention of something as simple as Wave Function (a BASIC tenet of Quantum Mechanics), the Cargo Cult will label you a KOOK.
But remember: they can only view/understand you, based on their limited experience, education and BIASES.
They have overlooked the fact that, if not for the hypotheses/theories and experimentation, regarding Quantum Mechanics: a plethora of modern conveniences, medical devices and the gear they so love, would not exist.
Had scientists, chemists and inventors shared the doctrines of the Cargo Cult (Denyin'tologists), there would be no semiconductors, computer chips, LASERs, or Magnetic Resonance Imaging devices (MRIs).
Solid State amps?
OOPS (back to tubes)!
Your Smart Phone?
FA'GET ABOUT IT!
Your car's GPS?
NOPE!
Then too: some may be willfully ignorant and just enjoy being contentious.
Others: obtuse, uneducated*, misinformed?
*Typically, from what's been exhibited here: H.S. STEM, if that, would be a safe inference.
Either way: the result, when the Cult begins its rhetoric, is a classic demo of the Dunning- Kruger Effect.
But, I digress:
Bring up those pesky details, regarding the likes of QED, Dielectric Absorption, Poynting's theorem and possible application/effects, relative to frequency, that our musical signals are carried via photon or wave, outside the conductor and you're a KOOK?
Again: the Cargo Cult can only understand anyone with an actual background, experience and education in Physics/QED, based on their beliefs, education, experience and biases
Remember this?.
One anecdote that some may find interesting: their walks in the woods and how Feynman's father would encourage him to look beyond the fact that something in nature exists, but into why and how.
It saddened him that while attending college, during a visit home and one of their walks: his dad asked what he was learning in college.
At that moment, he realized: if he tried to explain what he was learning, there was no way his dad could understand.
Einstein got that last one wrong (Quantum Entanglement), BUT- I still wish he'd been alive, when the Hubble Telescope proved, what he considered his, "greatest blunder" (his inability to bring symmetry to his field equation, without lambda.
I would rather use "electric potential' than "voltage potential".
Certainly understandable.
My own nomenclature choices* are rather based on how our Prof expressed himself (regarding atomic charges), followed by decades of checking for, "electrical potential" differences, IN Volts, with voltmeters/oscilloscopes, between neutrals and grounds, over so many decades.
If the wire is live there will be an electric field around it. That’s all that is needed, plus being held by the person checking for AC voltage. The person, being the ground completing a capacitive circuit.
The insulation covering a wire does not stop an electric field from passing through the outer wall of it. Nor will it stop an EM field from passing through the outer wall of it. A 100% shield around the live insulated conductor will.
Of course I know exactly how it works and I do have one. I got my master degree in EE from one of the best engineering colleges in the nation. Your description is not quite right. Electric and magnetic fields are present around any electrical circuit.Also an electromagnetic field can be formed when charged particles are accelerated. We don't use any "electrical theory" in modern electrical engineering. From their website "by keeping a constant electrostatic field on an insulation material... the molecules of the material are polarized reducing the misbehavior ...the insulation can't absorb new energy" Seriously rodman99999 none of the above makes sense a good example of pseudo-science. Of course if i ever visit Indianapolis... i will be honored.
They function because an electromagnetic field is formed around circuitry/a conductor, when a voltage potential is applied, whether an actual circuit is completed, or not.
"I actually want to learn more about the dielectric bias system*.
Review the first paragraphs, of my first post to this thread, for my understanding/postulations, on how *such might work (according to modern electrical theory).
As to whether the MPC wallwarts/system, such as attached to my Main amps' interconnects and power purifier's PC, would make a profound improvement to your listening experience/ears; you're welcome to stop over, if ever in the Indianapolis area.
They're among the easiest things to A/B test on the planet.
I actually want to learn more about the dielectric bias system. Where can I get its data sheet and an actual sample? It may really work... a real magic oil lamp that takes us on a magic carpet ride.
Tesla is probably my favorite innovator, who (despite the incessant, projectile vomit, from his day's naysayers), took the World, kicking and screaming, into the 20th century, with his inventions.
I agree! He was one of the greatest electrical engineers/physicists/inventors who ever lived... all of his work done based on science/engineering principles. What if he were still alive would he ever want to know about all these snake oil DBS/articulation console/network box and cable burn-in and power conditioners and tweaks. He would scream "i don't do snake oil"
Feynman was and will remain, my favorite lecturer (yeah: I'm that old).
He mentioned often (and: I took to heart) his favorite Rule of Life: "Never stop learning!"
For all his genius, he never grew overly confident in his beliefs. The perfect obverse to the Dunning-Kruger sufferer.
ie: “I can live with doubt and uncertainty and not knowing. I think it is much more interesting to live not knowing than to have answers that might be wrong.”
and: “I have approximate answers, and possible beliefs, and different degrees of certainty about different things, but I’m not absolutely sure of anything.”
Tesla is probably my favorite innovator, who (despite the incessant, projectile vomit, from his day's naysayers), took the World, kicking and screaming, into the 20th century, with his inventions.
You got the usual response from the folks who have crap for audio systems, can’t be bothered to try, or have genetically inferior hearing.
That said I think you have left out a lot for other factors on cable break in.
One of many others that can’t ignore is that electrons are physical particles and are charge aligned as they leave an amp. .
flowing thru a cable with metallurgical imperfections will cause the electrons to bounce around and get displaced in relation to each other. Overtime some level of these Imperfections will get smoothened out just like water will do to rocks overtime.
This I also believe is another factor for break in. I am sure there are more reasons causing us with better audio systems and ears to experience cable break in differences.
Thanks for all your inputs. Filtration through the common mode choke EMI combined with galvanic isolation of the transformer should be able to eliminate unwanted signal noise completely. This is not my opinion but one of the established principles of signal electronics. But I agree with you on " however good the filter, the cleaner whatever goes in: the less work the filter has to do and the cleaner the output." Happy listening!
Is F=ma one of his theories? I know his theory of gravitation but not sure about his other theories.
The main of the EFEs I'm thinking of is: G+A= kT, but- if the, "a" in your formula is lamda: YES! We're on the same page.
You do realize: that you own Kimber products, already puts you in the, "better cable" klan, right?
Kimber (to my knowledge) has never made an inferior product, or- one that didn't punch above it's price range, as some would say.
If you read my prior post, regarding how I'd suggest a power cable might be designed, you'll note my mention of Teflon dielectric and Litz. Your 8TC speaker cables are a big Teflon dielectric, Litz (braided) cable.
The design has been, "good enough" for a LOT of people, for a LOT of years and why they're still being made.
They're good enough for my driven subwoofers and I could probably live with them on my mains (though I'd rather have 12TC), if I ever had to give up my Big Silver Ovals).
Even Kimber's PBJ will outperform a lot of higher priced cables, IF your appetite leans towards a more faithful signal transfer.
I had Heroes on a couple sources, a few decades back. Tried a number of other of the better regarded brands and have been using pairs of KS1030 and KS1130, for the past 20ish. I just feel they've remained consistent with the rest of my components and their upgrades.
"Do you know what EMI filter does" and so on.
Yes. I've a few decades of electronic repair, restoration, upgrading and building, behind my comments.
One thing even the most inane EE should recognize: however good the filter, the cleaner whatever goes in: the less work the filter has to do and the cleaner the output.
Typically: the first upgrades and/or replacements I address in whatever the component, are in the power supply, because: that's to what you're going to be listening.
I also mentioned that a power supply with a choke may respond less, to a high dollar PC, as they clean up a lot of what makes it through the rectifiers, x-former, caps, etc.
@rodman99999All good…. i’m mostly in your camp… The moniker is my favorite salmon fishing plug… A serious boat and multi-quarry season make high end audio SEEM affordable ….
Ido hang out a few hours a day working in the Quantum computing aka bleeding edge industry… A great read for the Luddites is of course Surely You’re Joking Mr. Feynman.
While, i also fondly miss Almarg, i think he would like myself be the first to say we don’t as yet know everything and that lots of very interesting science is happening outside of Physics and EE. My memory is he worked on radar gear…. my own experience w phased arrays both orbital and not is that the absolute frontier of high performance is… still partly a black art. …..
I parse my consumption of threads like this…mostly to define who to skip over and who to focus on….. love to learn…
Of course, i believe forming a dielectric and maintaining that state is important…. the amplifiers i use have a 128v DBS circuit for just that purpose…..
You ( those high on PS audio advice on speakers…should poke Paul about Octave and the microphone collection / selection…. my position would be work transducers hard… and for those in the digital world, PRAY they used a fantastic A2D….
the cleaner the power (from the wall, cord, fuse and PS), the more faithfully the resultant signal, when it reaches your speakers for reproduction.
Do you know what EMI filter does and where it's located and how those x/y capacitors and common mode chokes work together to swamp out all EM interference noise that the power line picks up right from the power grid (not just the last 5 feet from the wall outlet) to your audio equipment. Yes the EMI filter should swamp out all RF signal from the power cable so the noise can't make it through the power supply of the audio unit. You just need a cable big enough to carry the current without heating up. And that's why you don't need a power conditioner either to clean the AC power from the wall outlet.
I bought amazon power cables for less than 50 and I love them because they please my eyes. They don't make my audio system sound any better than the stock power cord. What about $1000 power cables? A total waste of money. Nonetheless we all know "placebo effect" is alive and well so you'd believe a $1000 cable/the magic oil lamp makes your system sound better because you feel better about it.
The dielectric in your equation is effectively an insulator and as such does not absorb current.
I named the equation "The 1st law of S.O. Dynamics".
retrocrownfan
My point is the same as Paul from PS Audio. Even as a maker of high end gear, he clearly states “nobody hears the signal” and the single most important investment in your system is your speakers, because they create the sound pressure that moves your ear drums.
Thanks for the input. Are you aware that PSA sells power conditioners and power cables? He sells S.O. to those believers.
rodman99999
Newton’s THEORIES were largely superseded by Einstein and Bohr's. Then came Feynman’s.
Is F=ma one of his theories? I know his theory of gravitation but not sure about his other theories.
coralkong
You know, if you can't even spell "snake oil" correctly as the OP couldn't, I pretty much have to assume you're a fucking idiot.
At least you know how to spell smake oile corrctly your mom should be proud.
My point is the same as Paul from PS Audio. Even as a maker of high end gear, he clearly states “nobody hears the signal” and the single most important investment in your system is your speakers, because they create the sound pressure that moves your ear drums.
And yet: Paul recognizes/realizes that, "capacitors and dielectrics" DO change their characteristics, over time and with use.
Just like an oft copied page run through as a copy of a copy of a copy, each step reimages the original.
...“can you just res-up this 80k jpeg to use on my 40 ft bus graphic?”
NOT the same as trying to increase the size of a digital image, with a limited number of pixels and retain resolution!
An analog musical signal's voltage and/or current is increased, in every gain stage. That's WHY: the more faithfully the signal's innate properties are retained in the process and the cleaner the power (from the wall, cord, fuse and PS), the more faithfully the resultant signal, when it reaches your speakers for reproduction.
More akin to the images of an IMAX, 35mm film being increased in size, to fill the huge screen, on which it's viewed.
If the bulb that produces the light is compromised, or the lens is dirty: the image won't have it's intended resolution, regardless of it's original clarity.
Sorry for extending our weekly cable exercise, but here’s way for everyone to sleep at night without worrying about the last electron’s alignment.
One of the running jokes of my 40 years in graphic design end of the ad agency business is the never ending stream of client side comments like “can you just res-up this 80k jpeg to use on my 40 ft bus graphic?”
There is no res-up magic on a raster file. Period. The digital information is not there. We do employ very talented desktop designers. They can create a vector file based on the image in your thumbnail. BUT, we will charge you the “Rembrandt Rate” and it will be a super-realistic original creation.
Fast forward to our hobby, and the journey a recording takes from the time players and singers perform a song and when an electrical signal vibrates a surface that vibrates a listener’s ear drum.
Perfect reproduction is an impossible dream. In the audiophile world, each stage of signal capture, voltage reduction, voltage amplification and sound wave creation is subject to somebody’s skilled “Rembrandt Rate” applying their expertise to the creation of something that moves the electrical footprint forward in a way that best preserves the impression of the sound waves created for the recording. Just like an oft copied page run through as a copy of a copy of a copy, each step reimages the original.
My point is the same as Paul from PS Audio. Even as a maker of high end gear, he clearly states “nobody hears the signal” and the single most important investment in your system is your speakers, because they create the sound pressure that moves your ear drums.
Everything. All of it. Is in the ear of the beholder. The value of each piece of gear in your system is not an absolute. It is some company’s commercial effort to interpret (not reproduce) a performance that a buyer values as pleasing and accurate. Uber cable or lamp cord. Transparent bright or warm big baffle speaker. Every version of the “Rembrandt Rate” is out there. The actual value of that investment exists only in the space between your ear drums and your brain,
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