The Insane World of High End Audio! Is it All a Scam?

@oberoniaomnia the high dollar audio equipment sells a lot better than you think, take the D'Agostino relentless amplifier for instance, they took preorders for over 200 amplifiers before they were even built. The new improved model is $350,000 the original model was $250,000. They even added a relentless model below that.

@deep_333 great points and well made. The very high end is well above what I’m willing to pay, even if I had the ability, but I see no reason to create resentment towards those who buy in that segment of the market. When I hear someone call them fools for spending their money in a way that brings them joy, I think it says a lot more about the name caller than the purchaser.

I also think there’s a lot good to say about the state of affairs. There is more quality equipment available at the lower end then I can remember. I put together a system for a friend for under $3000 and it sounds really good and it’s bringing her a lot of enjoyment. I paid a lot more for my system and I don’t think anybody would say that it doesn’t sound better, but it’s great that there are quality products available at most price points. I guess we all look at things differently. When I see someone driving a Lamborghini, I think, man what a nice ride. I don’t think the guy who is able to buy that car is a fool. We can have interesting discussions about what works, and what represents value, and we can disagree, but I thought Randy and his viewers who commented presented a mean spirited tone that is unhelpful and unnecessary.

I’ll probably just stick with my example. There are ’value hunters’ at different price brackets.

This is a high value item @ 800 dollars.

This is ALSO a high value item, at 10k dollars.

Would a 10k value hunter open the chassis on a dartzeel priced at 120k and deem, "this is scam pricing". Perhaps, so...A guy who can afford to spend 120k may not be a moron, in every case. But, cheapaudioman doesn’t get to stand on his pedestal and say everything above his 800 dollar wallet size is scam pricing. It is quite silly.

Take a real good look at something and how much effort, aptitude, cost went into it before it’s deemed a scam price or not (whether it is a sonic upgrade or otherwise). For the guy sitting in his WAF approved living room, it won’t be for sure.

Randy has a point. With the "audiophile" discourse being dominated by stratospherically priced items, why does anybody wonder that there are few young people coming in?

He also has a point that at best marginally better sounding items in the 10K and up range, per component, nota bene, are considered entry level for "audiophile" systems. This is normalized by the general awareness of the ridiculously priced items.

And while in the 1970s the differences between a 0.1/1/10K electronics component were more pronounced, nowadays the differences are much less. Differences in recording styles (assuming same quality) is greater than differences in component sound. Yes, I tested that with $250 vs $5K DAC.

I for one would welcome if discussions, magazine articles and audio show would reflect the actual market place in terms of units moved. Lots of <1K components, a decent selection of 1-10K, and above 10K very little. Maybe one item above 100K. The endless 1M system rooms are both tiring as they are offensive, and typically are not sounding great anyway.

Of course, everybody can spend money on whatever they want. I prefer doing it on a variety of music that I play on a midlevel system (see my virtual system).

@gdaddy1 We installed hardwood floors throughout the house, and the music room has a carpet over the wood floor. plus furniture for sound treatment, and selected panels (DYI, btw).

Randy has a point. With the "audiophile" discourse being dominated by stratospherically priced items, why does anybody wonder that there are few young people coming in?

He also has a point that at best marginally better sounding items in the 10K and up range, per component, nota bene, are considered entry level for "audiophile" systems. This is normalized by the general awareness of the ridiculously priced items.

And while in the 1970s the differences between a 0.1/1/10K electronics component were more pronounced, nowadays the differences are much less. Differences in recording styles (assuming same quality) is greater than differences in component sound. Yes, I tested that with $250 vs $5K DAC.

I for one would welcome if discussions, magazine articles and audio show would reflect the actual market place in terms of units moved. Lots of <1K components, a decent selection of 1-10K, and above 10K very little. Maybe one item above 100K. The endless 1M system rooms are both tiring as they are offensive, and typically are not sounding great anyway.

Of course, everybody can spend money on whatever they want. I prefer doing it on a variety of music that I play on a midlevel system (see my virtual system).

@gdaddy1 We installed hardwood floors throughout the house, and the music room has a carpet over the wood floor. plus furniture for sound treatment, and selected panels (DYI, btw). 

I have watched Randy's content since he started and have disagreed with him often. Never have I felt compelled to demean or excuse his opinions on gear or the music he chooses (which is not my cup of tea). But I have definitely noticed his transformation where high end equipment is concerned. Slowly but surely his ceiling has risen substantially. His opinions on cables and other minutia have changed considerably as of late. Randy still has a following to appeal to and at heart is selling his channel. He went from rants about "high end" to "ultra-high end". Baby steps my friends.

How do you get to the bottom of it with cheapaudiomen such as Randy, Mahgister, etc?

Conduct an experiment by taking cost out of the equation.

Let us suppose 'you know who' set 2 preamps in front of them and said, "You won a free giveaway, Both are free, but you can only pick one"

Preamp 1: Yamaha C5000, price 10k

Preamp 2: Schiit Kara. price 800 dollars

Both of them work well and sound good. But, if you open the chassis on both, one of them will start to not just look like an engineering masterpiece, but, a flippin work of art. Did it actually cost them a lot to make it, that they have to price it at 10k? Probably close, whole lot of cost and soundmaster's specialized labor sunk into it, different ethos applied. The other will look like a competent design that functions quite well, bang maxed for buck. The average guy over 65 with hearing degradation will probably not even hear too much of a difference.

But, what do you think they'd pick when both are free now, i.e. cost has been taken out of the equation? Such an experiment will reveal many truths about the cheapaudiomen.

learned is that audiophiles yearn for affirmation of our choices.  Randy gave it to his audience in this video, thus building loyalty to his "brand." I find that distasteful, but likely effective. Each to their own. That's what interested me on the topic, and of course, I may be wrong and anyone can disagree.

Thanks for your well articulated explanation...

I think your judgment about his seller strategy is right.

My intention was not mocking him or his strategy choices though but just using his video as a typical reviewer stance forgetting the essentials...(Acoustics many concepts)

i could have pick Jay reviewing high end gear... I already had done it years ago when he was totally oblivious of acoustics... And he is the complete Janus brothers of cheapaudioman... The two sell gear pieces not  knowledge... i dont judge them...( i prefer Jay )

My goal in my journey was not buying the best audio system or the cheapest. I simply went along with my budget.

My goal was to learn how to embed rightfully in their three working dimensions any gear system...( mechanical,electrical and acoustical)

Acoustics being by far the most important...Because without acoustics concepts we dont understand what we do in audio at all ...

I think this video, however, is simply a calculated effort to solidify his brand with his target audience by cynically affirming their choices while denigrating choices made by others. His message is that the ones who buy at the lower end, out of choice or necessity, are somehow smarter than those who buy at the higher end because their cheaper system sounds just as good, maybe even better. The message is that if you buy the kind of stuff he reviews you are shrewd, but if you buy stuff above his price segment of equipment, you are a fool.

@mahgister I didn't miss your point. Your thoughts concerning "psycho-acoustics" are well documented and I simply have nothing to add to your well stated views.

I saw Cheapaudio's video-the one you posted-and found it insulting. He actually referred to businesses selling $60k speakers as predatory. The vendors I know offer a quality product which you are free to buy-or not. Just like we are free to buy a Porsche or a Smart Car-neither good nor bad, just a different choice depending on the consumer's preferences and needs. Not sure speaker vendors deserved having their character maligned.

I don't think Cheap is ignorant-far from it-he's built a very successful channel catering to the lower end of the market and that's great, a good service for an important market segment. 

I think this video, however, is simply a calculated effort to solidify his brand with his target audience by cynically affirming their choices while denigrating choices made by others. His message is that the ones who buy at the lower end, out of choice or necessity, are somehow smarter than those who buy at the higher end because their cheaper system sounds just as good, maybe even better. The message is that if you buy the kind of stuff he reviews you are shrewd, but if you buy stuff above his price segment of equipment, you are a fool.

One thing I've learned is that audiophiles yearn for affirmation of our choices.  Randy gave it to his audience in this video, thus building loyalty to his "brand." I find that distasteful, but likely effective. Each to their own. That's what interested me on the topic, and of course, I may be wrong and anyone can disagree.

Cheap may be trying to recover from his video of a couple weeks ago wherein he seemed to favor the tariffs, or least downplay their importance. His audience turned on him on that one and that video was quickly banished to the cornfield. 

Cheers.

I see what Mahgister was implying. The reviewer is selectively ignorant - like the dog who did not bark in the night?? Or if that isn’t what you mean, it is what I mean.

You got it....

Cheapaudioman is a reviewer and like all reviewer they minimize and erase acoustics knowledge importance to sell the gear...

Pure ignorance and marketing...In cheapaudioman case it is pure ignorance in other case it is bad faith of experienced sellers...

Consumers audiophiles are like a herd they learn by index pointing. They dont study acoustics and at best conflate it with GIK panels....

Ignorant as cheapaudioman most here insult his character without knowing more than him...

And most audiophiles dont know how to listen and hear their own system because there is only one way to know : we must correlate each aspects of what we hear to a specific concept of acoustic, then modifying the Speakers/room parameters to improve the experience... But it is impossible if we have no acoustics concepts at our disposal without studying what it means in a serious books and how can it be implemented in our speakers/room for our ears/brain...

Most throw insults at cheapaudioman. It is unfair and pure stupidity. I never intend to mock him but to use his video as an example of "the dog who dont bark" in audio...

It is so easy for others to knock or berate other's opinions or hobbies.  A watch is just a watch or a car is just a car, etc.  You know, "I don't see why someone would spend so much on such and such, they are all the same".  The best way to eliminate this noise is to let someone hear their favorite music on a decent system or a decent piece of equipment.

Many are used to MP3 or compressed music and have not really heard recording played back on great equipment.  Not to say there isn't a huge ripoff factor on "high end" equipment.  But, that is another discussion.

Also, many people listen to music as background music while they are busy doing other things.  So, they really aren't sitting and listening.  It is hard to show or convince people of differences. They don't have the space or time.  Many of us upgrade one piece at a time and that takes typically decades to get "there" with their systems.  

Many claim that they can't really taste the differences in wines.  But, they have never really gone wine tasting a really good wineries and laid out several vintages of wines and tasted.  same with systems and music.  Go to their house and swap out their system or a particular piece, match the levels from the previous listening session and then listen to the same music.  I would bet a great lunch that then they would hear a difference.  But going to a dealer or a friends house and simply listening.  They probably would be able to remember what the music actually sounded like in their home on their system vs at the dealer or a friends house.

When friends come over, I just turn on my system, play the music they like and some I like, enjoy some food and wine and company and what their attitudes and faces change while listening.

I know a car is not just a car.  A watch is not just a watch, music equipment is not just music equipment.  I understand electronics and audio.  I know what a real violin, bass, cello, etc. really sound like vs electronic equipment.  many don't.  They know what they know. They don't know what they don't know.  (I hope that makes sense).  I can't afford the very best, but over time, with years of upgrading single components, I am "there".  Can it get better?  absolutely!  The next lottery win for me, or a large bag of money dropped in front of me and those Sonus Faber Strat speakers are mine.  Although, I was informed that taking the bag of money is illegal.  You can't win. Pray for money. If appears and it is illegal to take it.  go figure.

enjoy

I’ve said it elsewhere and say it again here: the weak link in 99% of audiophile systems (aside from room acoustics) is the speakers. Even if lamp cord is being employed as the speaker cable in an otherwise $50K system, it’s not likely to be the weak link. 

Speakers, speakers, speakers…everything else is a distant contributor. I’d rather pair $30K speakers (or $10K DIY speakers) with $5K in electronics than $20K speakers with $15K in electronics.

I see what Mahgister was implying. The reviewer is selectively ignorant - like the dog who did not bark in the night?? Or if that isn't what you mean, it is what I mean.

Will the audiophile/audiophool demarcation line  ever be "defined?"

I think...NOT!

I used to like his reviews of low cost gear...but he now is so insulting and condescending and accusatory...changes everything 

Definitely insane.  Not all a scam but it happens. 

I just think he’s ignorant.

I think audioman is ignorant and it is why i posted this video...

But i think all of those attacking his character are as ignorant as he is and miss completely my point about acoustics as most audiophiles and reviewers occupied only by  the promotion of their gear against the others by virtue of their "tastes" or pricing...

By the way it takes years and years before Jay who tested 400 hundred top high end amplifier adress the acoustics relation between speakers and room... he did it after many years... at least he spoke about it a bit unlike cheapaudioman...But it say a lot about acoustics complete ignorance in audio. Most think acoustics is room acoustic at best...

Acoustics rule...( not just room acoustic but psycho-acoustics and physical acoustics (Helmholtz resonators etc )

Good points!

 Thanks for your opinion.

 The others seems more busy  mocking the character than about thinking...

 I will only add that what i means by acoustics knowledge is not just standard room acoustic but more large ... I just bought new speakers i modified with success  for my room... Acoustics is way more deep than room acoustic...

WAF... the dog that does bark!

Acoustic treatments are avoided because of room aesthetics. A hard wood floor with no carpet is the worst offense IMO. People who paid for wood floor will NEVER put carpet on it. It will remain acoustically untreatable. Just horrible imo.

Windows are the next problem and have more solutions but the look of the window is far more important and most are very reluctant to cover it.

I've also found people don't like the look any acoustic panels or bass traps on their walls. Most people don't think it makes that much of a difference if any.

They get used to the room acoustic the way it looks best and that's the way it will stay. 

I got tired of his schtick a while ago.

IMO, he is simply ignorant to a lot of higher end audio. He has no reference point. If he wants to tout a $129 Class D Chinese mini-amp (or whatever he's reviewing that day), fine. He reviewed the Emotiva CD4 and highly recommended it. That was the end for me. I simply can't take him seriously after that one. I don't think he's malicious, I just think he's ignorant. I think he reviews cheap Ali Express watches, too. That ought to tell you something.

WAF... the dog that does bark!

Acoustic treatments are avoided because of room aesthetics. A hard wood floor with no carpet is the worst offense IMO. People who paid for wood floor will NEVER put carpet on it. It will remain acoustically untreatable. Just horrible imo.

Windows are the next problem and have more solutions but the look of the window is far more important and most are very reluctant to cover it.

I've also found people don't like the look any acoustic panels or bass traps on their walls. Most people don't think it makes that much of a difference if any.

They get used to the room acoustic the way it looks best and that's the way it will stay.                                                                                                                                                                            

This guy's a clown, just as most of the audio Youtubers are. His sheer silliness was obvious is less than 60 seconds.

I thought Randy's video was ridiculous and the comments worse. He's just playing to his crowd, stoking resentment, cynically trolling for clicks. If someone wants to buy a $60k or $600k set of speakers its their business, not mine or yours. And how the hell would he know what motivates a particular buyer of audio equipment? And why would anyone be bothered if someone wants to spend their money to get a 5% increase in performance? 

The many comments ridiculing those who choose to spend their money for higher end products reek of jealousy in the same way that those who ridicule buyers of inexpensive products reek of arrogance. I'll never own a million dollar system, but I don't resent the few who do. I also don't delude myself into thinking that I'm so smart that I've assembled a system for a fraction of the cost that is "just as good," because I know that will not be the case unless they have chosen very poorly.

We all have a budget that we are willing and able to spend on audio equipment. Its enough for me to take care of my budget-yours is none of my business. Its an absurd video.

It seems most people dont get my point about this video and "the dog who did not bark"......

For example the essential is not perceiving a difference in sound in "the same room", anybody can do this at least most...

Acoustics is the art of pairing a specific speakers to a specific room transformed and settle for this specific speakers... Doing that we must use listening skills in relation with specfic acoustics concepts and experiments

This is why gear price has nothing to do with acoustic optimization. And this is why audio is a deceptive hobby because of acoustics ignorance...

Instead of hating cheapaudioman and accusing him to be on the wrong end of the stick of capitalism it is better to think...

The gear price has no relation with the minimal acoustical satisfaction threshold. The gear price and design is linked only to our budget not to acoustics science...Once it is chosen we are free to optimize any gear system...

Any system at any price may sound relatively good when optimized in relation with his specific potential for sure..

My pleasure comes from acoustic balance and knowledge not for being on the upper end of the capitalist end of the stick...it is as pitiful as crying because we are on the lowest end of the capitalist stick...

Acoustics rules audio not money nor snobbery....

Buy more books than gear pieces...

For theoretical Acoustics i recommend  "sounds source" of Akpen J. Essien

For practical physical acoustics : Floyd Toole book...

For articles about theoretical acoustics and applied one,  Edgar Choueiri is the third genius...

When I first started out in this hobby, I was sure all cables sounded alike and cable marketing was all a scam.  As my ears got better, I could hear the difference and realized it was important to me, so I bought into pricey cables.

And I have never heard two pairs of speakers sound the same -- there's always a difference.

My impression is that cheapaudioman 1) cannot tell the difference in sound at the high end which is convenient because 2) he doesn't have enough money.

He notes the diminishing returns with higher price.  At some price level, he can't tell the difference (or the difference is too small for him to care).  But there are others who hear the difference and do care about it.  When listeners can tell the difference between $60k speakers vs $10k and have the funds, the value proposition makes sense.  That's the market niche.

So with sour grapes, he labels the high end a scam.  May his ears never become educated to appreciate the finer differences in those diminishing returns.

I have some gear at different price categories. 

Without A/B-ing such items in the same room, you wouldn't be able to tell what exactly you paid for or not.

The cheapman youtube guy probably doesn't have any point of reference or clue, except catering to his subscribers, i.e., other angry cheapaudiomen who got hyper-capitalism's short end of the stick. 

There's also a lot of junk sold at astronomical prices... that just looks good. Many expensiveaudiomen pay for such looks.

Very good posts... Thanks Bolong and gdaddy1

But you miss or forget the "dog which did not barked" in the audio conditioning market...

Gosh this sounds familiar:

Five Top Wine Professionals Share Their Favorite Riojas

Generally, people are flawed in their thinking that if it costs more it must be better. This bias lives in the imagination of humans and makes it easy for scammers.

Years ago Starbucks coffee was doing poorly. They kept lowering the price to lure customers but it wasn't helping. New management came in and immediatly tripled the price on coffee to change the perception that the cheap price = cheap/crap product. Instead the new higher price gave a new image that this coffee is now improved, higher quality. "it must be better at that price!". Even though the coffee was unchanged, people with money were now lured in due to price.  A smart marketing tool that didn't cost them anything.

Certainly the people with money can see the Emporors new clothes. They also hear the sound improvement from a $2000 box of rocks. (they'd never buy the rocks if they were only $50 )

The difference of buying a Rolex vs. a Timex has NOTHING to do with telling time.

He sounds like a hater and can’t afford any better then a Wiim mini.

I cannot afford costly piece but i am not a "hater" either nor a "snobber"... are you a snobber ?

Why accusing people you dont know ?

My point about acoustics as OP of this thread is the subject, you seems to have missed it ? I did not post this for the sake of cheapaudioman arguments but for what Sherlock Holmes called "the dog which did not barked".

Acoustics basics, not merely room acoustic panels by the way, is the ignored dog which did not bark in audio, for reviewers as for consumers hypnotized by gear design and prices...

This is my point, acoustics general ignorance, and the focus on price high or low and on design of gear, and this is more important than all cheapaudioman points, which point  he did not even think about one second in his video as yourself by the way too much occupied  by the character and in the hurry to "hate" the "hater" ...

He sounds like a hater and can't afford any better then a Wiim mini.