The Insane World of High End Audio! Is it All a Scam?

Wait a minute... what if it is us scamming them?

Egyptian priests used resonators to "equalize" room temple sound... Before Hemlholtz..

I had 100 because i conducted experiments for many years with no cost materials from tube 8 feet high and large and straws and all dimensions in between.. I tuned them by ears...it takes me 2 years to complete 7 day/7...( Acoustics was my hobby then ) Way more fun than throwing money on a new dac because we are unsatisfied...

 

One single straw as part of a resonator mouth located at the right place create an audible effect...The location of the resonators matter too not only their dimension and cross ratio.. I also use them in a way to make a kind of mechanical crossfeed too for the speakers with some near the drivers...( i could not suppress crosstalk anyway in my room then i turned this impotency into and advantage i designed my version of mechanical crossfeed)

 

Now i dont own my past room, i must had sold my house but i used Helmhotz principle to modify my now small speakers vent hole because they are badly designd on all speakers for esthetical reason and cost...I modified my headphone too ...

For the measures:

you know that timbre is not a simple addition of pure frequencies because the ears perceive sound in his own time dimension. Timbre is a set of large band...

I used my ears to tune to my liking all my resonators in fonction of the timbre i wanted for the musical instruments like we tune a piano...My ears "measures" them one at times..each one compensate for others... There is a trade-off...

 

 

When all was completed my stereo system completely vanished..

My prefered opera Kurt Weill 4 penny opera soundfield was around me with natural timbre...

The singers walking and singing i was able to "see" their head turning...And sometimes singing next to my chair or near my shoulder...

Dr . Choueiri call that the spatial attributes of sound...H3e described them in his articles..

if you think that you can have this with one resonators or 2 sorry no...It is why without knowing what i did at the begining i add one at a time, each time gaining better S.Q, with each tuning.

but if you buy the BACCH system it will do this in a perfectly controlled way...

I called my resonators set a mechanical equalizer because it is exactly what it was...

The equalization process was tuned for my ears not by an electrical means...

The BACCH system will be better for sure but i know what it will do because i made it mechanically...

But some aspects cannot be made mechanically, as the measures of HRFT, or the control of the crosstalk cancellation etc...

It is why studying acoustics reading about sound perception is more valuable than reading reviewers who most of the time dont know really more about acoustics concepts than the customers who listen to them ..

It is why people invest big money in this hobby often without knowing what they do as an obsession..

i prefered to inform myself...

I was fascinated at some point by theoretical acoustics... What is sound... I discovered not only Dr. Gorike genius reading his patent about my headphone, not only Dr. Choueri genius insight into spatial aspects of sound control but a genius in pure acoustics theory i read in ectasy... He explain sound perception like no one else ... This is another story... I posted about it in a thread about spiritual aspect of music...( i posted many scientific articles about acoustics there but very few were interested in spite of the fact that there is a revolution in acoustics  and sound perception right now)

In life i am mostly interested by mathematics,linguistic,philosophy and acoustics and their relation...

I sure know what a tuned resonator is, higher end studios tend to use them as they can be made more discreet....had one in a former house, found something more broadband and better in recent times.

When you said you had a 100 Itty bitty ones that served as a "mechanical room equalizer", it started to sound a lil kookalicious.

On the same note, the effect of one can be clearly measured. I suppose you didn’t get that far or did you? Or did the effect of a cluster 100 whatever...of them do a number on ya?

 

I sure know what a tuned resonator is, higher end studios tend to use them as they can be made more discreet....had one in  a former house, found something more broadband and better in recent times.

When you said you had a 100 Itty bitty ones that served as a "mechanical room equalizer", it started to sound a lil kookalicious.

On the same note, the effect of one can be clearly measured.  I suppose you didn't get that far or did you? Or did the effect of a cluster 100 whatever...of them do a number on ya?

Sound is like a beast..

It exist in a volume...

To understand and perceive this "volume of sound" qualities in all his aspects you need to understand a minimum of acoustics concepts with your ears in your room. Then you need to modify your room to feel how the perception change with it.

If not you will feel that the sound come directly from the recording by dac/amp/speakers into your brain...A superstition we can observe among audiophiles who forgot the speakers is more a part of the room than just  a part of the amplifier and dac....

And if you dont like the sound , you will invest in a often useless upgrade, instead of optimizing or modifying your gear and room. if you like the sound,you may say it is my "taste" without knowing that it could be way better at low cost...

Acoustics has nothing to do with "taste"...

 

 

What sounds good to you? That’s all that matters. Trust your ears. As you progress through this hobby your senses will evolve. Always trust your ears. You are the only one that can educate yourself. Enjoy the music.

Perhaps you are educated and know who Helmholtz is and why he is the father of modern acoustics and what his main tool was before electronics: mechanically tuned resonators ?

Keep sarcasm and think...

Ok... starting to sound just a tad wacky now...a bit shun mooky...a bit crystalline kookalicious...maybe some stalactites and stalagmites are next in this acoustics intervention, eh?

There is many devices in mechanical acoustics... This is one thing...

 

There is other devices completely secondary compared to acoustics devices...

Audiophiles called them "tweaks" ... I explored everything by the way in the last 12 yeears but never bought tweaks (save Schumann resonators )... i had opinion if i can justify them by facts or experiences ...

For example Schumann generators works but it is a mere tweaks and the effect is real and subtle but do not compared to the main tools from acoustics science..

I decided i will not spoke anymore of my non-acousticals experiments because they are secondary and funny experiments and because narrow mind use sarcasm to mock others... i dont like that...

Acoustics science rules audio not tweaks or separated gear pieces costly or not...

What sounds good to you? That's all that matters. Trust your ears. As you progress through this hobby your senses will evolve.  Always trust your ears.  You are the only one that can educate yourself. Enjoy the music.

Understandable

The most stunning thing i ever experienced in audio, is the huge modification induced by the room materials composition not only the walls, floors, cellings composition, but the furniture... And the geometry and topology of the room...

 

Ok... starting to sound just a tad wacky now...a bit shun mooky...a bit crystalline kookalicious...maybe some stalactites and stalagmites are next in this acoustics intervention, eh? 

More than that i was flabbergasted by the effect of small resonators made of cheap materials had on my sound experience... I created 100 of them... I call them "mechanical room equaliser"

 

 

The most stunning thing i ever experienced in audio, is the huge modification induced by the room materials composition not only the walls, floors, cellings composition, but the furniture... And the geometry and topology of the room...

More than that i was flabbergasted by the effect of small resonators made of cheap materials had on my sound experience... I created 100 of them... I call them "mechanical room equaliser"

Acoustics control dwarf choice between cables or between dac and amplifier... The only exception will be going from a very bad piece of gear to a top one...

 

All matter when we create an audio system , even cables... But nothing compare to acoustic analog control...

i dont own a digital room control ( save my modest equalizer now) or which will be the ideal tool and gear : the BACCH system for sure...

Why did i know if this system is so astounding if i did not even never listen to one ?

i studied acoustics...

I know what are the spatial aspects of sound and how to control them in my room... But an analog system as mine was is not ideal even if it is spectacular... It is not refined the way the BACCH system is...( my mechanical system dont adress for example HRTF  measures)

It is the only upgrade worth of my money...

I am happy and dont think about buying one now , my budget is very thin...

Ok i shut my mouth...

 

 

Exactly!

And they create battle (subjectivist versus objectivist) which are meaningless...

Acoustics are critical and most people ignore that.
And it’s frustrating that people don’t see this.

Yes.

When we study acoustics we begin to understand how the gear pieces together or separately affec sound quality...

it is evident that  100 bucks speakers cannot gave a S.Q. rivalling top speakers...

It is a common place evidence...

My point is nevermind the speakers price , "half" of the soundfield quality will result from speakers/brain/room relation and from our ability or unability to control this relation.

 Reviewers are like the consumers to which they adress their opinions :  they sell the gear pieces chosen, they dont sell  or advertise about the way to control our experience with acoustics...

 At best they recommend panels...

 Reviewers as consumers are together in the same ignorance pit by the force of their circumstances, they focus on the gear design not acoustics concepts and experiments...

Dont accuse reviewers buy a mirror and confront your ignorance... It is what i have done for myself 8 years ago......

 

 

It seems nothing will change...
Like a bull blind by rage seeing a red cap and going against it...
My point was not driving people against or for one any reviewer...
my point was that the "scamming" process in audio result from our own ignorance as consumers or as reviewers...

Acoustics are critical and most people ignore that.
And it’s frustrating that people don’t see this.

Yes.

It seems nothing will change...

 Like a bull blind by rage  seeing a red cap and going against it...

 

 

 

My point was not driving people against or for one  any reviewer...

my point was  that the "scamming" process in audio result from our own ignorance as consumers or as reviewers...

It is all right to pick gear pieces, inform ourselves about it , analysing reviewers takes, thinking about synergy...

But when we had bought the system the real job begin...

This real job is not connecting the system in the wall , judging it, and thinking to the next piece to buy... ( upgrades are not solution in half the case, metaphorically speaking, in half the case it result from our ignorance to use optimally the first piece before buying a second one)

The sound experience we will enjoy with any system at any price do not depend only of the gear system but mainly of the way we will be able to put it at his peak potential S.Q.

With mechanical, electrical, especially acoustical informed controls over our ears/brain/speakers/room relation..

 

 

 

 

 

 

I like cheapaudioman

and I had my own personal disappointing experience with him

Thanks for your kind words and understanding...

 

@mahgister

Room acoustics.

Cutting to the chase after just reading your original post.

The first reply was crass and terribly personal towards you. I have not bothered to read further….the snobbery was unbelievable! 🛁 Rick and his logo impresses me not!

I do not normally get hot under the collar but l felt just cause to post this right back.

Yes you agree that you may not have the big bucks, but you extract and gain the maximum amount of enjoyment from the equipment you have by considering your listening space.

My conclusion to your post and the opinionated rubbish thrown your way is to say:-

Room acoustics do determine the limiting factors of your equipments potential. A really expensive piece of kit will never sound great in a bathroom no matter how good it is. I know that this is an extreme comparison (and rude comments should remain in the bathroom) but some peoples listening rooms with minimalist designs can be the most limiting factor…..arguably more than anything else.

I thought i was clear:

I said we scam ourselves first and last... (consumers as reviewers)

By ignorance of acoustics science...

I did not accused as many here the personal character of reviewers into a complotist plot to scam people...

Acoustics ignorance once i had studied it is everywhere not as a complotist perspective from anyone , but by lack of concrete applied knowledge of acoustics concepts...

 

 

Reviewers are like the consumers, they ignore acoustics, it is not deliberate, it is a consequence of the universal focus on the gear design by subjectivist as objectivists...

I knew it ONLY by my experience in my room and studying serious audio designer and top scientists as Dr. Gorike , Edgar Choueiri, Floyd Toole... Etc

 

 

To be more clear : Most reviewers i read or listened to are sincere and honest ... I am perhaps naive but it is my impression...

"All" reviewers do this? Well, maybe.

I suppose you could be saying a couple of things about gear reviewers:

1. They *intentionally obscure* the larger factor of acoustics so they can more effectively sell or promote equipment.

2. At least some gear reviewers are intentionally obscuring the larger factor but even if it is not intentional, it is the byproduct of this type of review.

I am not sure which one you believe.

 

Then i concur with your last paragraph opinion :

 

3. Gear reviewers review gear. People who watch these videos may or may not be informed about the role of gear in acoustics, but their role is narrow and the responsibility for a wider perspective is on the viewer. This is not unlike many other things we read or watch.

 

@mahgister

Room acoustics.

Cutting to the chase after just reading your original post.

The first reply was crass and terribly personal towards you. I have not bothered to read further….the snobbery was unbelievable! 🛁 Rick and his logo impresses me not!

I do not normally get hot under the collar but l felt just cause to post this right back.

Yes you agree that you may not have the big bucks, but you extract and gain the maximum amount of enjoyment from the equipment you have by considering your listening space.

My conclusion to your post and the opinionated rubbish thrown your way is to say:-

Room acoustics do determine the limiting factors of your equipments potential. A really expensive piece of kit will never sound great in a bathroom no matter how good it is. I know that this is an extreme comparison (and rude comments should remain in the bathroom) but some peoples listening rooms with minimalist designs can be the most limiting factor…..arguably more than anything else.

Well said i agree with your common sense yes...

But my point in this thread as a motive, is that all reviewers, of high end gear or low cost one, minimize or put acoustics knowledge under the rug...

They must sell first, then they must inform about a piece of gear.....They are not there to spoke about acoustics...

"All" reviewers do this? Well, maybe.

I suppose you could be saying a couple of things about gear reviewers:

1. They *intentionally obscure* the larger factor of acoustics so they can more effectively sell or promote equipment. 

2. At least some gear reviewers are intentionally obscuring the larger factor but even if it is not intentional, it is the byproduct of this type of review.

I am not sure which one you believe.

I suppose my take on it is this:

3. Gear reviewers review gear. People who watch these videos may or may not be informed about the role of gear in acoustics, but their role is narrow and the responsibility for a wider perspective is on the viewer. This is not unlike many other things we read or watch.

I just read in another thread a poster saying he know how to assemble a system without the need of reviewers opinion.

I had no problem with that but i suppose his method is not sniffing the gear but hearing a piece buying it and connecting it. Job done.

 

I am sorry but i called this consumers ignorance even if you had verified all measures done by an ASR "engineer" or Amir himself...Or reviewers ignorance...A piece of gear exist only playing in a specific system, in a specific room for specific ears/brain... Design techs numbers are there to validate good design process nothing else...

 

An audio system exist mechanically, electrically and acoustically in a room and psycho-acoustically for specific ears...Not in a showroom, in a showroom there is only piece of gear connected.

Why did Dr. Choueiri measures in a complex way the ears/head of his customers ?

he is an acoustician...

My AKG K340 why are they so good when properly optimized ?

They were designed by an acoustician physicist not a headphone tweaker, Dr. Gorike...

 

 

 

I forgot to say that i takes me many years to learn how to install a system to my convenience, among these 12 years of explorations and experiments, buying, toying reading reviewers and articles, but at the end i missed the target.

 

I succeeded only after 2 years during retirement reading about acoustics, doing experiments 7 day /7 all day... It was my past hobby : learning acoustics at home...

It is why i can measure my past ignorance when most cannot...

It is why i dont consider  that audio knowledge begin and end when  someone  tried about 400 amplifiers etc...

I doubt Dr. Choueiri or Dr Gorike had accumulated their knowledge by buying gear pieces... Thats my point...

 

 

I like cheapaudioman and do not agree with everything he says, nor anybody else for that matter.

The more one pays the fancier, bigger, heavier, etc things become but that does not always mean better. Some gear is ugly, some artwork, and some really like the artwork which is fine as long as open minded enough to know what you are actually paying for.

Some just like to buy it to stroke their egos as well, pretty obvious on this forum and elsewhere. I have meet meany very wealthy people and the only ones I actually liked where down to earth and did not own exotic things to show off, including a multi billionaire I went to dinner with. He was wearing jeans, a flannel shirt and probably $50 shoes.

But again, if one has the means and the desire, go for it, fine with me, I do not have the means nor desire even if I had the means. I like making things work on a DIY and tight budget then being better than most any system I have ever heard.

Rick

 

cheapaudio man is a savvy individual and not honest in my experience, he does what he thinks is best for his business to thrive. 

I’ll put my point more positively:

Sometimes we benefit from reviewers who translate their experience into tools, techniques, and vocabulary which can help someone who also plans to learn and then listen and experiment for themselves.

We are in agreement about that, I assume.

 

Well said i agree with your common sense yes...

But my point in this thread as a motive, is that all reviewers, of high end gear or low cost one, minimize or put acoustics knowledge under the rug...

They must sell first, then they must inform about a piece of gear.....They are not there to spoke about acoustics...

When they review gear they do it in the same room they own not in a dedicated room for a specific system...( ASR for example even review speakers borrowing often only one not a pair and they reduce acoustics to some digital measures, and Jay put all speakers in the same acoustic not so well controlled environment)

Then my point is : all reviewers do not help us to inform ourselves about our own basic ignorance...

Anyway most reviewers associated acoustics knowledge in audio to panels, end of story...

 

As an exemple: if i ask Jay or cheapaudioman

"how did i improve imaging and soundstage in my system with this dac, pre-amp,amp speakers?"

The probability they recommend me a new and better piece of gear is very high?

They probably ignore how to create a good ratio between ASW and LEV, if they even know what these acronyms means ?

 Thats my point...

 It is not that we are scammed by sellers in audio, we are all  scammed by our own ignorance...

Scapegoating someone because he sell low cost Chinese products or because he sell very high end costly product will not change truth and reality...

 

"I thought Randy's video was ridiculous and the comments worse. He's just playing to his crowd, stoking resentment, cynically trolling for clicks."

 - @kerrybh

Bingo

I’ll put my point more positively:

Sometimes we benefit from reviewers who translate their experience into tools, techniques, and vocabulary which can help someone who also plans to learn and then listen and experiment for themselves.

We are in agreement about that, I assume.

But the idea that we don’t benefit from reviewers is not something I agree with.

 

I never said that we dont benefit from reviewer...

Who will listen to 400 amplifiers to advise us ? If not Jay...

Who will listen to low cost many pre-amp to recommend one ? not me, but Cheapaudioman...

i appreciate also Huff... Etc I even read ASR...

I bought my last tube pre-amp equalizer thanks to cheapaudioman recommendation and many others ...

 

 

My point is : not scapeagoating the reviewers, (who ignore acoustics basic deliberately or not to sell us gear) , but facing our own laziness and ignorance about audio essentials concepts in acoustics as the only to way undertand how to work our system/room...

 

Yes, the audiophile market thrives on widespread audio and acoustic ignorance, and true progress requires self-education through direct acoustic experiments, not solely relying on reviewers.

But the idea that we don’t benefit from reviewers is not something I agree with.

Many (not all) reviewers have spent more time and may have more expertise than the average listener. And can help educate what we hear by conveying their techniques for listening, positioning speakers, and use of vocabulary that helps manage confusing auditory experiences. I’ve benefited in my own listening by their help.

Audiophile market is based on mass ignorance about audio and acoustics, it is not just about good or bad gear design, good or bad pricing...

Be it cheapaudioman selling low cost products or Jay selling very high end products,

they are legitimate reviewers with their style as any others ..

I dont want to criticize them and their character... It is useless and meaningless because we like someone style or not... So what!

 

But it is impossible to see through our own personal self deception, self scamming so to speak by the power of our ignorance if we do not inform ourselves about acoustics concepts and meanings in direct experiments ( there is very simple one even for a living room )...

It is because people dont do this that they delude themselves by taking the wrong choices for them...

It is not the reviewers the problem but ourselves...I refuse to makes reviewers bad or good one, the scapegoat of our own ignorance..

i know what i spoke about because 12 years ago i was totally ignorant... I am no more... And i dont speak about the useless knowledge of branded names gear various offerings here, useless for everyone save a reviewer because his job is to sell this to you, good or bad... We have only one audio system to work with...At least only one at a time and we must learn how to work with it...

Once we had understood how to deal with one system at any price, the basic is the same for any other system/room...

 

I'm glad to see someone on YouTube finally gathered the courage to critique high end audio. Those fat cats have put one over on us proles for way too long.

Having experienced the difference between proper acoustics with really great gear then gear costing 10% in the same exact space and still having a great system I am a firm believer it is the most important aspect in audio.

In business I used to sell a dang fine automotive sound deadening product and did quite well at it, growing monthly for years in a row and without advertising. I hired a new web designer and he kept after me for months to significantly raise my prices though I had a really decent profit margin I felt it was wrong to do so. Of course it involved fancier packaging and a new name but I finally gave in and the business grew 4 fold in months. I never really liked doing so but I still had what I felt was the best product for the money available and more got to get in on it.

I came up with some ideas for a very dynamic website, had not seen some of those used before, spent a lot of money and a lot of time waiting for it. In the end the guy used my money and ideas to develop a competing product, quite good, tiny bits of product, very slick marketing and charged a huge price for it and sold a lot of it. In reality it was not better than what I sold, just marketing BS.

That said, I think there is more than enough evidence to support claims that gear is being sold that is way over priced and just does not perform that much better than other quality gear to justify the prices. Mainly it just sounds different in some cases and in others goes with the system better than other gear and or the way the customer perceives how it sounds can be related to our differences in taste and preference or just simply how our individual hearing works.

 

BUT, it does keep more money in circulation, not a bad thing for the rest of us that do not have the budget or do have the budget but choose to be happy with "lessor" systems.

Rick

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Some ’boutique’ euro backwater crap brand he touts never had any design/manufacturing clout..I would bet my hat that all of it is subcontracted to China and the final 2 screws get tightened down in Europe.. to make audiophiles feel real special that they got something ’made in europe’ or something. I would rather buy chifi instead in such instances, give credit where its due.

The upper echelon Technics, Marantz, Yamaha, Sony, etc will be made in Japan and have some high iq engineering.. apparently it’s not special/elusive enough for some low iq OCD used car dealer.

I’ve watched a few of his videos. I think he’s just looking for clicks. The scam is his content to get subscribers using clickbait titles. He’s a good entertainer though.

I've watched a few of his videos. I think he’s just looking for clicks. The scam is his content to get subscribers using clickbait titles. He’s a good entertainer though.

@audioguy85  I could open up the higher end stuff made by Technics, Yamaha, etc and do a back to back comparison of his 'boutique' (low iq engineering/scam priced junk made by some guy in his garage) sold by OCD dealer.

The OCD MIKEY GUY IS ANNOYONG as all heck. Looks down on All kinds of quality gear, such as marantz, Macintosh, Yamaha, etc...only raves about the boutique crap he sells, and Noone ever heard of, of which costs crazy amounts of dough.

Scamming or even misleading people is different than overpricing, which is a business/marketing strategy. In my business, there is a notable story, now taught in business schools, of a vendor with an inferior product but deep pockets and lots spent on p.r., trade shows, and advertising. They made in roads by creating demand from higher ups at companies, semi-knowledgeable, who liked the branding and wanted their department to buy it. Competing products did more and better, all the prices were around the same. They re-branded the company, claimed a massive engineering change, for endorsements from major players, put it all in  a black box, all hardware and software now proprietary, so they said. They also raised the price to $160,000 vs 25-40k for competition. They sold to wealthier outfits so we'll that they went public and never looked back. With basically the same thing that had been $35,000. Harvard teaches it as a positive lesson that if you have something you spent too much on to develop and can't recoup cost because you are no better than or inferior  to the competition, differentiate your product not on features or benefits but on price. They advise at least a 5 fold increase over the competing products. 

Like 'cheapman' said, people by Rolex because they want a Rolex not necessarily because it is a 'precision time piece'. 

But have you ever read a review where the author states that 60% of the cost of an audio amplifier is the fancy chassis?

That's the dilemma we have.

Now about acoustics...I don’t use a single thing. I treat the room by stuffing it with all sorts of different fabrics/upholstery/furnishings etc.... It sounds good to me, and I can care less if it does not to someone else.

 

Perfect for you as my room is perfect for me...

Congratulations..

But your feeling does not invalidate my experience with acoustics nor science itself...

Acoustics is the only way to put any system at any price at his working peak potential once we had control over mechanical &electrical problems...

Changing a piece of gear instead of making the system we already own work at his optimal level, before the necessary or unnecessary upgrading will not do much, or as well as we imagine...

 

No one can know if his room is optimal to serve his system acoustically BEFORE experimenting with all aspect of acoustics... our feeling that all is right has nothing to do with objective experience in changing conditions and changing acoustics parameters..

 

It is hard to do. We must study, We must have time for many experiments to learn (most of people work and dont have the luxury of time) We must have a room to do it(most people has no dedicated room ).

But the truth must be tell for the sake of it and for the benefit of all...It cost me nothing to do it, it is the good news...

 

 

 

The OCD MIKEY GUY IS ANNOYONG as all heck. Looks down on All kinds of quality gear, such as marantz, Macintosh, Yamaha, etc...only raves about the boutique crap he sells, and Noone ever heard of, of which costs crazy amounts of dough. Loves to plug those slabs of Rock speakers, idk, fisher & fisher, never heard of them, nor do I care to. I doubt high end audio is a scam, but there are certainly a lot of jerks and snobs in this hobby or whatever you want to call it, maybe a disease. Now about acoustics...I don't use a single thing. I treat the room by stuffing it with all sorts of different fabrics/upholstery/furnishings etc.... It sounds good to me, and I can care less if it does not to someone else. 

How do you get to the bottom of it with cheapaudiomen such as Randy, Mahgister, etc?

I picked Randy not because i approve all of what he said...

I could have pick Jay video reviewing 400 high end top amplifiers in a room empty of any acoustics devices parametrized to serve his choice of gear. When we buy gear we must evaluate it in optimal acoustics conditions designed for the gear we have bought...

If not we will enter in an upgrade cycle because of our incapacity to put the system at his potential peak level... Price has nothing to do with the way to put any system in his optimal settings, it is valid for any system, acoustics principles dont change with price...

 

My point was about the only scam in audio: Acoustics knowledge put under the rug to sell gear... Costlier gear or cheap gear, that makes no difference for my point...

People focus on Randy character instead of seeing the essential : Jay and Randy at the opposite end of the price stick commit the SAME SIN : Acoustics is ignored completely to sell upgrades...

 

Acoustics is not about panels it is about hearing parameters and behaviour, complex devices as Helmholtz resonators of various design, very specific concept to create soundfield in our room : ASW (Apparent Source Width) refers to the perceived spatial extent of a sound source and LV (listener envelopment) this factor is highly desirable to set in place correctly because we felt encompassed by the soundfield and included in it. Etc many others concepts exist with which we can play in experiments...

 

Applying Helmholtz resonators principle as an exemple i just modified the vent hole of my new small active speakers.

(unbeknownst to all Vent hole in small speakers are badly designed for cost saving and esthetical reason, sound quality is secondary here for the company; who would buy a hideous vent hole design with one,2 or 3 feet of tubes of different size  outside the small box which cost more ?)

Then these low cost speakers of mine once modified (  which were unanimously well reviewed) i just bought were transformed from mediocre in my opinion to good (acceptable)... Thanks Helmholtz...

 

The scam in audio is not related to the price we paid for a piece of gear but to our own acoustics ignorance about the way to use the gear( at any price)...

Acoustics do not resume by buying GIK panels ...

 

@invalid thank you for proving my point. 200 units in a global market is minuscule. Roughly 1 per country.

@deep_333 re effort, that's all good and well, but how does it sound? Provide data on blind tests, and then we have a basis for discussion. 

@kerrybh re Lambos, it certainly leaves an impression, and it ain't favorable. I'd rather talk to someone with a meticulously restored Model T. Respect! 

I maintain: focus on silly high priced items is to the detriment of the hobby. I recently provided some guidance to a young friend (30s) who was interested in a TT. Budget: $500. Very interested, very much into music, love their Klipsch speakers. After much discussion and talking about pros and cons of features, they settled on an $200 AT-LPW30BKR. That's reality.

and every studio control room i’ve worked in…. has some glass….

hopefully the introspective will realize… we are all sellers, reviewers, influential to some degree… ask yourself about the security blanket dopamine hit… 

I think a more focused thread about the room a dog of sorts that does bark would be threadworm but useful….. diffraction might be your friend….

@oberoniaomnia the high dollar audio equipment sells a lot better than you think, take the D'Agostino relentless amplifier for instance, they took preorders for over 200 amplifiers before they were even built. The new improved model is $350,000 the original model was $250,000. They even added a relentless model below that.

@deep_333 great points and well made. The very high end is well above what I’m willing to pay, even if I had the ability, but I see no reason to create resentment towards those who buy in that segment of the market. When I hear someone call them fools for spending their money in a way that brings them joy, I think it says a lot more about the name caller than the purchaser.

I also think there’s a lot good to say about the state of affairs. There is more quality equipment available at the lower end then I can remember. I put together a system for a friend for under $3000 and it sounds really good and it’s bringing her a lot of enjoyment. I paid a lot more for my system and I don’t think anybody would say that it doesn’t sound better, but it’s great that there are quality products available at most price points. I guess we all look at things differently. When I see someone driving a Lamborghini, I think, man what a nice ride. I don’t think the guy who is able to buy that car is a fool. We can have interesting discussions about what works, and what represents value, and we can disagree, but I thought Randy and his viewers who commented presented a mean spirited tone that is unhelpful and unnecessary.

 

I’ll probably just stick with my example. There are ’value hunters’ at different price brackets.

This is a high value item @ 800 dollars.

This is ALSO a high value item, at 10k dollars.

 

 

Would a 10k value hunter open the chassis on a dartzeel priced at 120k and deem, "this is scam pricing". Perhaps, so...A guy who can afford to spend 120k may not be a moron, in every case. But, cheapaudioman doesn’t get to stand on his pedestal and say everything above his 800 dollar wallet size is scam pricing. It is quite silly.

Take a real good look at something and how much effort, aptitude, cost went into it before it’s deemed a scam price or not (whether it is a sonic upgrade or otherwise). For the guy sitting in his WAF approved living room, it won’t be for sure.

 

Randy has a point. With the "audiophile" discourse being dominated by stratospherically priced items, why does anybody wonder that there are few young people coming in?

He also has a point that at best marginally better sounding items in the 10K and up range, per component, nota bene, are considered entry level for "audiophile" systems. This is normalized by the general awareness of the ridiculously priced items.

And while in the 1970s the differences between a 0.1/1/10K electronics component were more pronounced, nowadays the differences are much less. Differences in recording styles (assuming same quality) is greater than differences in component sound. Yes, I tested that with $250 vs $5K DAC.

I for one would welcome if discussions, magazine articles and audio show would reflect the actual market place in terms of units moved. Lots of <1K components, a decent selection of 1-10K, and above 10K very little. Maybe one item above 100K. The endless 1M system rooms are both tiring as they are offensive, and typically are not sounding great anyway.

Of course, everybody can spend money on whatever they want. I prefer doing it on a variety of music that I play on a midlevel system (see my virtual system).

@gdaddy1 We installed hardwood floors throughout the house, and the music room has a carpet over the wood floor. plus furniture for sound treatment, and selected panels (DYI, btw).

Randy has a point. With the "audiophile" discourse being dominated by stratospherically priced items, why does anybody wonder that there are few young people coming in?

He also has a point that at best marginally better sounding items in the 10K and up range, per component, nota bene, are considered entry level for "audiophile" systems. This is normalized by the general awareness of the ridiculously priced items.

And while in the 1970s the differences between a 0.1/1/10K electronics component were more pronounced, nowadays the differences are much less. Differences in recording styles (assuming same quality) is greater than differences in component sound. Yes, I tested that with $250 vs $5K DAC.

I for one would welcome if discussions, magazine articles and audio show would reflect the actual market place in terms of units moved. Lots of <1K components, a decent selection of 1-10K, and above 10K very little. Maybe one item above 100K. The endless 1M system rooms are both tiring as they are offensive, and typically are not sounding great anyway.

Of course, everybody can spend money on whatever they want. I prefer doing it on a variety of music that I play on a midlevel system (see my virtual system).

@gdaddy1 We installed hardwood floors throughout the house, and the music room has a carpet over the wood floor. plus furniture for sound treatment, and selected panels (DYI, btw). 

I have watched Randy's content since he started and have disagreed with him often. Never have I felt compelled to demean or excuse his opinions on gear or the music he chooses (which is not my cup of tea). But I have definitely noticed his transformation where high end equipment is concerned. Slowly but surely his ceiling has risen substantially. His opinions on cables and other minutia have changed considerably as of late. Randy still has a following to appeal to and at heart is selling his channel. He went from rants about "high end" to "ultra-high end". Baby steps my friends.

How do you get to the bottom of it with cheapaudiomen such as Randy, Mahgister, etc?

Conduct an experiment by taking cost out of the equation.

Let us suppose 'you know who' set 2 preamps in front of them and said, "You won a free giveaway, Both are free, but you can only pick one"

Preamp 1: Yamaha C5000, price 10k

Preamp 2: Schiit Kara. price 800 dollars

Both of them work well and sound good. But, if you open the chassis on both, one of them will start to not just look like an engineering masterpiece, but, a flippin work of art. Did it actually cost them a lot to make it, that they have to price it at 10k? Probably close, whole lot of cost and soundmaster's specialized labor sunk into it, different ethos applied. The other will look like a competent design that functions quite well, bang maxed for buck. The average guy over 65 with hearing degradation will probably not even hear too much of a difference.

But, what do you think they'd pick when both are free now, i.e. cost has been taken out of the equation? Such an experiment will reveal many truths about the cheapaudiomen.

 

 

learned is that audiophiles yearn for affirmation of our choices.  Randy gave it to his audience in this video, thus building loyalty to his "brand." I find that distasteful, but likely effective. Each to their own. That's what interested me on the topic, and of course, I may be wrong and anyone can disagree.

Thanks for your well articulated explanation...

I think your judgment about his seller strategy is right.

My intention was not mocking him or his strategy choices though but just using his video as a typical reviewer stance forgetting the essentials...(Acoustics many concepts)

i could have pick Jay reviewing high end gear... I already had done it years ago when he was totally oblivious of acoustics... And he is the complete Janus brothers of cheapaudioman... The two sell gear pieces not  knowledge... i dont judge them...( i prefer Jay )

My goal in my journey was not buying the best audio system or the cheapest. I simply went along with my budget.

My goal was to learn how to embed rightfully in their three working dimensions any gear system...( mechanical,electrical and acoustical)

Acoustics being by far the most important...Because without acoustics concepts we dont understand what we do in audio at all ...

 

I think this video, however, is simply a calculated effort to solidify his brand with his target audience by cynically affirming their choices while denigrating choices made by others. His message is that the ones who buy at the lower end, out of choice or necessity, are somehow smarter than those who buy at the higher end because their cheaper system sounds just as good, maybe even better. The message is that if you buy the kind of stuff he reviews you are shrewd, but if you buy stuff above his price segment of equipment, you are a fool.

 

@mahgister I didn't miss your point. Your thoughts concerning "psycho-acoustics" are well documented and I simply have nothing to add to your well stated views.

I saw Cheapaudio's video-the one you posted-and found it insulting. He actually referred to businesses selling $60k speakers as predatory. The vendors I know offer a quality product which you are free to buy-or not. Just like we are free to buy a Porsche or a Smart Car-neither good nor bad, just a different choice depending on the consumer's preferences and needs. Not sure speaker vendors deserved having their character maligned.

I don't think Cheap is ignorant-far from it-he's built a very successful channel catering to the lower end of the market and that's great, a good service for an important market segment. 

I think this video, however, is simply a calculated effort to solidify his brand with his target audience by cynically affirming their choices while denigrating choices made by others. His message is that the ones who buy at the lower end, out of choice or necessity, are somehow smarter than those who buy at the higher end because their cheaper system sounds just as good, maybe even better. The message is that if you buy the kind of stuff he reviews you are shrewd, but if you buy stuff above his price segment of equipment, you are a fool.

One thing I've learned is that audiophiles yearn for affirmation of our choices.  Randy gave it to his audience in this video, thus building loyalty to his "brand." I find that distasteful, but likely effective. Each to their own. That's what interested me on the topic, and of course, I may be wrong and anyone can disagree.

Cheap may be trying to recover from his video of a couple weeks ago wherein he seemed to favor the tariffs, or least downplay their importance. His audience turned on him on that one and that video was quickly banished to the cornfield. 

Cheers.

I see what Mahgister was implying. The reviewer is selectively ignorant - like the dog who did not bark in the night?? Or if that isn’t what you mean, it is what I mean.

 

You got it....

Cheapaudioman is a reviewer and like all reviewer they minimize and erase acoustics knowledge importance to sell the gear...

Pure ignorance and marketing...In cheapaudioman case it is pure ignorance in other case it is bad faith of experienced sellers...

Consumers audiophiles are like a herd they learn by index pointing. They dont study acoustics and at best conflate it with GIK panels....

Ignorant as cheapaudioman most here insult his character without knowing more than him...

 

 

And most audiophiles dont know how to listen and hear their own system because there is only one way to know : we must correlate each aspects of what we hear to a specific concept of acoustic, then modifying the Speakers/room parameters to improve the experience... But it is impossible if we have no acoustics concepts at our disposal without studying what it means in a serious books and how can it be implemented in our speakers/room for our ears/brain...

 

Most throw insults at cheapaudioman. It is unfair and pure stupidity. I never intend to mock him but to use his video as an example of "the dog who dont bark" in audio...

 

 

 

 

It is so easy for others to knock or berate other's opinions or hobbies.  A watch is just a watch or a car is just a car, etc.  You know, "I don't see why someone would spend so much on such and such, they are all the same".  The best way to eliminate this noise is to let someone hear their favorite music on a decent system or a decent piece of equipment.

Many are used to MP3 or compressed music and have not really heard recording played back on great equipment.  Not to say there isn't a huge ripoff factor on "high end" equipment.  But, that is another discussion.

Also, many people listen to music as background music while they are busy doing other things.  So, they really aren't sitting and listening.  It is hard to show or convince people of differences. They don't have the space or time.  Many of us upgrade one piece at a time and that takes typically decades to get "there" with their systems.  

Many claim that they can't really taste the differences in wines.  But, they have never really gone wine tasting a really good wineries and laid out several vintages of wines and tasted.  same with systems and music.  Go to their house and swap out their system or a particular piece, match the levels from the previous listening session and then listen to the same music.  I would bet a great lunch that then they would hear a difference.  But going to a dealer or a friends house and simply listening.  They probably would be able to remember what the music actually sounded like in their home on their system vs at the dealer or a friends house.

When friends come over, I just turn on my system, play the music they like and some I like, enjoy some food and wine and company and what their attitudes and faces change while listening.

I know a car is not just a car.  A watch is not just a watch, music equipment is not just music equipment.  I understand electronics and audio.  I know what a real violin, bass, cello, etc. really sound like vs electronic equipment.  many don't.  They know what they know. They don't know what they don't know.  (I hope that makes sense).  I can't afford the very best, but over time, with years of upgrading single components, I am "there".  Can it get better?  absolutely!  The next lottery win for me, or a large bag of money dropped in front of me and those Sonus Faber Strat speakers are mine.  Although, I was informed that taking the bag of money is illegal.  You can't win. Pray for money. If appears and it is illegal to take it.  go figure.

enjoy