The Horror

Going to these show are like Monterey Car Week. Most beautiful, expensive, fast and some simply unatainable automobiles in the world. Then I get in my old M3 or Miata and just enjoy the experience that I have. 

My audio set up is modest at best but it sounds pretty good to me and I do the same. BTW, if you are in SoCal spend some of those thousands of dollars on LA Phil and Hollywood Bowl. I'm pretty sure it is the most "real" you can get, not a "representation" of sound, the actual sound. 

@audiodidact @tvad has given you some great advice about booking some time with Mr. Smith.

I'm certainly not pointing any fingers at anyone on this thread with what Im about to say but I've listened to some pretty nice systems in pretty terrible rooms. I try to be polite but there are alot of bad rooms depicted in some of the system photos and everything is system/room dependent. Just because a panel is in a photo and the person says it sounds great now, dont think that buying one will solve anything. You need the right tool for the job and you simply dont know the right tool yet. You need information and a plan. Your room, gear, goals and desires are different than theirs. In fact, I took down the photos of my system room because people would write and say "I'm thinking of buying X, Y or Z and I wanted your thoughts" or "I see you have a whatchamacallit DAC and I was thinking of buying one". Everything matters, it isnt complicated, but you have to be purposeful. The one that gets me is when someone says hey, you have xyz power cables, how do they sound? They may or may not have similar gear, room, goals etc but I try to answer what are you trying to accomplish and its usual crickets. All cables dont improve things. Same for dacs, other gear, acoustical treatments. As proof of concept, have you ever heard anyone say that things sounded terrific right out of the box and went downhill as the unit broke in...

@audiodidact Throwing a blanket over the TV might (or might not) make it suck less. LOL. Change nothing until you have a plan and are armed with proper advice. Its fun to sketch and come up with ideas but I certainly wouldnt commission anything until you know exactly what the end result will be. For instance, your sofa may or may not be helping. Different fabrics have different reflectivity and absorption properties and you will be surprised to learn that rugs, drapes, furniture and carpeting all contribute to the acoustical space and none of them, none...will deal with bass issues. That only comes with proper and strategic trapping. If your room needs it, and they all do, then that will be your starting point....Dont start this journey with only a partial plan.

GIK Acoustics 

ASC 

@ghasley ,  thanks for having a look and the suggestions. You’re right, there’s been no plan, just swapping stuff-in/out and adding-in,  based on pure feel or recommendations.  Sitting down to create a real plan is the right way to start a long-term project, to get it right.  But it will take time. Remind again, please, GIY?

@soix, Yes, the TV is the real “horror”  or error of this space.  But, it’s shared with the family and there’s no changing that any time soon.  However, you’re right, a blanket or something would be better than nothing.  I’ve mentally sketched a TV sized light wood piece covered in diffusion material with rubber hooks that could help, instead of hurt the reflections. I could leave it hung on the TV until viewing time (we don’t watch much during the week, and only a couple of hours on the weekend).  Shouldn’t be that hard to make.  Thanks!

@tvad, I’ll definitely follow-up on that suggestion.  Thanks!

Do the Jim Smith thing!!!!!   You have a big investment and not getting anywhere near what you should out of it.

Jim Smith offers StraightTalk live support sessions via phone or Zoom. I’d suggest scheduling an hour session with him. Provide him with your photos. I’ll bet he can improve your sound and you won’t need to spend a lot of money.

You should throw a quilt or blanket over the TV — it won’t solve your problem but may provide a meaningful improvement.

@audiodidact perhaps you might consider sending these photos to GIK and get their opinion. Everything we post is pure guesswork and most likely a shot in the dark, which regrettably would be a continuation of your current strategy.

From the photos, it seems as if you have alot of reflective surfaces with alot of irregular angles. I’m not sure, even if treated, whether Maggies would ever perform at their best. Repeat: buy Jim Smith’s book, get some visual advice from GIK but from the photos, youve got a number of challenges ahead. You have a great deal of gear and TV between the speakers, which are inset within an alcove, a fireplace to the left, some funky drywall angles, no symmetry, etc.

You’ve committed the same sins we all have at one time or another. Early on, I had stacks of gear purchased without a strategy, with no idea whether there is system synergy but hey, an anonymous reviwer gave it high marks in his/her room with his/her gear. Have you made a list of your audio priorities? Calculate your budget (including the resale value of everything you’ve got) and start from there. In order of importance, treat the space acoustically, then choose speakers to work with the room, then the proper gear to drive them.

Today, rather than the stacks of gear and a mosh pit of cables everywhere, mismatched due to a lack of a proper plan, I now have a pair of speakers, an integrated amp and a dac and I’ve never enjoyed better sound in my home. I decided I would rather own one exceptional item than three or more average items. If you have a plan and a strategy to reach the goal, you will likely find that you will increase performance by subtracting variables and from the photos, you have an opportunity to achieve addition by subtraction.

I just updated my system page with some newer photos in order to get more feedback as to room treatment, etc.  Thanks to everyone for the help.

I demoed audio shows and brick n mortar audio shops to find the sonics I subjectively like, then tried to duplicate as much as possible within my budget.

Consistently blew my budget but landed in a good place.

@deep_333 wrote:

Soix & butter, the private messaging feature exists for you all to settle your differences on Boingnicke (or whatever else) over there. The middle school barnyard arguments are so meh/boring on these public threads.

I’m guessing trying to settle such arguments via private messages would have the same effect as removing the gate..

I'm fortunate to report that I've had the opposite experience as the OP. I've been to three audio shows and everytime I have come home and been pleasantly surprised to hear how well my system holds up to the megabuck systems at the shows. There are a few systems that were clearly superior in one or more ways such as Von Schweikert Ultra 11's, MBL 101 E Mk II's, and large Sonus Fabers but overall even these systems didn't blow my system away. I remember hearing a pair of large six-figure YG speakers and thinking, "Gee, that sounds a lot like my system."

I'm running a somewhat vintage system of Krell KSA 300S, KRC-2, and Thiel CS6 speakers. My digital sources are newer and state of art. At the 1996 CES where the CS6 speakers were paired with a Krell KSA 300S, just like my system, the reports indicated that many felt it was the best sound at the show. I think that the state of the art from 28 years ago holds up pretty well with the state of the art today.

I'm lucky to have a large 17 x 35 listening room that I've been able to fill with furniture and tchotchkes and plenty of breathing room to bring the speakers several feet away from the front wall into the room. The audiophiles who have heard my system have been very complimentary.

A motivated audiophile could duplicate my core system (amp, preamp, speakers) for around $15,000 today which shows that you don't have to be a trust fund baby to have a world class system. I'm lucky because I never would have discovered the Thiel speakers but my best audio buddy wanted to sell his pair and after I read the reviews and realized that I had the perfect amp to drive them (they are an extremely difficult load) I drove to Georgia and got them. When he came to visit he said that if they had sounded that good in his setup he would have never sold them. Apparently my audio Karma was very good.

I don't know the age of @audiodidact but I would characterize his situation as going through an audiophile midlife crisis. We are on a journey to find the sound that appeals to us as individuals and when we are exposed to new information we may find that we want to go in a different direction.

Seems you are a planar guy?

If so, Quad has done something I have never seen in Audio: they greatly improved their newest 2 models and cut the price by 50%! I am an almost lifetime Quad 57 guy. Never thought I would change. But my new Quad 2812X ($10K) runs circles around the 57s. Whilst retaining the Quad “magic” adding great detail and dynamics. They are not cheap but are probably the best $10K speaker made.

And for us planar guys, better than almost anything.

I like your preamp. And it is a good match with the Parasound but you can also greatly upgrade your amp with the Atma-Sphere Class D mono blocks. They are a terrific match with the 2812Xs and, as Ralph Karsten of Atma says, as good as his much pricier and highly regarded tube amps for only $5400.

Not cheap but sell your Maggies and Parasound. You don’t have to rob a bank.

"I think my Dennis Had SEP amp sounds better than any tube amp I've heard anywhere...cost about 1100 bucks (slightly used) back in 2017."

A friend of mine bought one of those around the same time.  It's lovely.   I think Had has a real gift for taking inexpensive components and combining them to make very musical little amps.

Soix & butter, the private messaging feature exists for you all to settle your differences on Boingnicke (or whatever else) over there. The middle school barnyard arguments are so meh/boring on these public threads.

@soix this is getting repetitive, you calling me names and presenting your alternative reality (lies for sane people) and me explaining why it’s not productive and very hurtful.

I see no reason to say it again. Ironically you keep digging and proving my point. And your insults are only getting worse. I won’t suggest you to calm down, that would be behaving like you. I am used to being this the norm, the abuser being protected, feeling emboldened and everyone standing by, quietly.

@tvad this happens from time to time. It's not at all new. A lot of my comments have been removed while much harsher comments I replied to were not, I am not into speculating why, I have better things to worry about. 

@soix my comment was removed, yours wasn't. Pretty unfair. I am attacked and I am the one silenced.

If this one will be removed too, you can be sure I will leave the forum, my sense of fairness is strong and having removed ONE SIDE's COMMENT ONLY is an abuse of fairness.

I don't have a thin skin. I just don't like being insulted, bullies and bullying. Your version is a nice try. It's like kicking someone and saying you were joking. You keep insulting me, in every comment now. You can't make any comment apparently without attacking the other person. 

If you really believe your interpretation of the events, your normalizing your behavior, that's pretty scary.

With this moderation, I wouldn't bet on being here tomorrow but whatever, I can live happily ever after and you can speak "FREELY" which in your dictionary means insulting other members.

Thanks OP for chiming in on Boenicke. I listened to the Boenicke W8 speakers at Alma Audio last year and thought they sounded great with relatively inexpensive Moonriver amplification. The sound was very immersive and images were meatier than one would expect from such diminutive speakers. They were set up in a near field configuration. The swing base is interesting but it seems they make the speakers easier to topple over. I would be worried if I had small kids or rambunctious dogs. I loved the sound, however.

To me, the most interesting thing about systems is that they all sound different. I try to identify the difference, before I make any judgement regarding the overall sound. Recently I listened to the big (and beautiful) Italian floorstanders at my friend's place. When I came home, listening to my own system, I first became sad and disappointed. His system sounded better. Especially, the treble was clearer. But then, I listened some more to my own system, noting that it has strengths compared to my friend's system. The treble may not be as sharply defined, yet the music sounds very embodied, even muscular (when called for), with a very lively and engaging 3d soundfield. So even though the Italians were hard to beat in some ways, other aspects pointed other ways. There are plusses and minuses with both system. This made me relax and enjoy what I have, and listening to other systems as well. It is a good idea to start with the plus points, rather than focus narrowly on the problem areas, e g a not-quite-optimal tweeter solution.

I think my Dennis Had SEP amp sounds better than any tube amp I've heard anywhere...cost about 1100 bucks (slightly used) back in 2017. My Pass XA-25 is the best sounding SS amp I've ever heard. About $5K or so...my rig, even after visiting Goodwin's (nearby) and listening to heaps of exotica, still sounds every bit as good in my house at a fraction of the cost of their stuff. You simply need to listen.

"...the grass is always greener on the other side...."

...and. of late, is generally considered to have higher potency as well...

Oh, Well....'ell.

There will Always and Forever....that last Step that one can't make that plops one into Nirvana.....not to mention the band... ;) 

@soix I did not come out hard against the Boenickes - all I said was that for that much money there are much better value speakers. I supported it with a list.

The way you doubted I knew anything about the Boenickes and if I had heard them was condescending - it wasn’t a "little pushback". It was a loaded statement that I had no idea what I was talking about. That’s not a "little pushback". That’s assumptions you had no right or reason to make.

If you don’t see that - how arrogant your responses are - you have serious problems. You were very rude in your first post and you are even more rude in the last one. Grow a pair? Are you 5? This is not a bar with drunken surfer dudes. I don’t need your lecturing. You are embarrassing yourself with your bullying tactics.

Obviously it's best we stay out of each others way, I will do all I can to avoid you.

I understand your pain. I like planar speakers - but they are not for everyone, as I think soix was saying. Try auditioning something else.

As for the long term, it seems to me that you have three obvious alternatives: headphones, room treatment, or DIY.:I went DIY because I couldn't afford what I liked. After 20 years, I've got a heck of a fine system, and had a heck of a lot more fun building it, mostly from over the counter parts.

YMMV

Currently, I’m running a BAT 225se power amp, BAT VK-33 preamp, Denon DCD-A110 CD/SACD player, and Joseph Audio Pulsars (non-graphene). I really dig the sound. A modest, but excellent sounding rig. There are systems better than mine, no doubt. However, after attending many audio shows, I haven’t gotten to the point where I want to trash my system and start over. I have found that once you have really good components (but not necessarily super-expensive ones), it then comes down to buying excellent quality recordings that are mastered well ... the Devil, many times, is in the mastering.

This is very sad to hear. Believe it or not, I’m always happy to get home to my modest system--an ancient pair of ProAc Response 2’s, my homebrew Williamson tube amps, my homebrew Aikido 6SN7 preamp and my Doge 7 DAC. It doesn’t bring the NY Philharmonic into the room and it has its limitations (my wife won’t listen to hard rock on it, with good reason) but for my tastes--classic jazz and classical--it always makes me happy. Lively and highly musical. But I feel your pain, it’s quite a shock to feel one’s beloved system is really deficient. OTOH, I’ve rarely heard anything at an audio show that floated my boat, and I’m not sure what other people are hearing or listening for. I remember Joseph Audio, some ProAc sized speakers from a small company in California, Volti horns with Border Patrol amps. Really, that’s about it. I usually find the enormous systems overwhelming and unmusical, but of course I haven’t heard everything by a long shot.

I’m surprised you’re so disappointed with you Maggies. I’ve always liked them, but they do need the right room and a lot of power.

If I may suggest, maybe you should lean toward a more efficient system, rather than something bigger and more demanding of power. A friend has a pair of Living Voice speakers, quite efficient, and if my ProAcs finally fell apart I’d probably go that way. Beautiful midrange, smooth and lively, very similar to the ProAcs but more efficient and with better bass. He runs them with a pair of 20wpc Williamson amps I built for him, like mine, and they played everything well, including more contemporary music which I don’t listen to that much, but it sure was alluring on the Living Voices. I’ve always loved ProAcs for their seamless soundstage, and the Response 2’s replaced a small pair of Maggies that my wife and I loved but didn’t really have enough bass for either of us.

Any, best of luck. Do consider lively, easy-to-drive speaks and maybe a 20-40 wpc tube amp. You might be surprised at how these could make coming home from the audio show a lot less of a shock. ;-)

@soix this wasn’t your first belittling/condescending comment to me. I have no idea why it is necessary. You could have asked “have you heard the Boenickes?” to the same or in fact, a better effect, without sounding what you often sound like. Feel free to ignore me in the future, thank you.

Dear AD,

Yes that must have been painful. Nonetheless it gives you an upgrade path to pursue. And there are plenty of budget options out there these days. Over the weekend I auditioned some $2.5k USD speakers here in Australia- the KRIX Harmonix - that sounded super. Deep enveloping bass and great mids and highs with a wide and immediate soundstage. They were teamed up with a musical fidelity power amp. Rotel offerings these days from the 1592 MKII to the Michi lines offer great value for money - I have an X3 and soon an RA6000 Diamond series. 
There are certainly options available and the fun of finding a solution to work in your room will keep you busy.

Hey audiodidact don't despair man look at it this way zero in on exactly what your system is lacking and fix it. I realize this is easier said than done but a similar happened to me after my first Capitol Audiofest back in 2017. After hearing a bunch of systems I decided mine lacked midrange density. I decided I needed bigger/better speakers and a few years later I had them.

It doesn't need to be super expensive either you may find you prefer a box speaker to your Maggies and plenty at various price ranges. Also wondering in the short term if you've tried a sub with your Maggies? If not that may give you more of the body and richness you're looking for.

I fished today with my buddy Gregg, same boat, motor, trailer, and depth finder stuck to the aluminum with Velcro. On the same lake for the last thirty years. We are getting to be old men. I think he would give me half of his last piece of bread, and I’d give him mine. 
 

Nothing to do with audio, but I feel like a rich man today. Hope you all have a Gregg or two.

Peace. 

I suggest going a bit nuts at first with lots of pillow stacked up corners, blankets all over the floor, etc.  Move the speakers as much as you can etc. You want to really start to hear differences in sound and build off of that. Move so much that you might get thrown out the house because too little and you'll be left wondering if you hear any change.

Yes I have heard the W5s at Alma Audio, 2 miles from my house.

@grislybutter Good for you, and you’re certainly entitled to your opinion. 

@roxy54 

I strongly disagree with your opinion of the intent of @audiodidact ’s thread. I think that it was sincere, if a bit tongue in cheek.

Hey Roxy.  That's fine, I'm not the A'gon police at all.  I just ... don't ;like the smell of this thread and won't participate.  Please continue to enjoy this thread and A'gon however you'd like.

@soix You doubt it? Based on what? Do you know me? Are you are above me to decide what I have and have not heard?

Yes I have heard the W5s at Alma Audio, 2 miles from my house.

I have also corresponded with Sven Boenicke and struggled a lot to get data on their speakers.

I made my statement about the value of Boenicke based on 100s of hours research.

And I would avoid the Boenickes for sure. Lot better choices in the W5 price range

@grislybutter Have you even heard Boenicke speakers?  I highly doubt it. 

@erik_squires

I strongly disagree with your opinion of the intent of @audiodidact ’s thread. I think that it was sincere, if a bit tongue in cheek. I also thought that it was interesting because many of us have likely found ourselves feeling something similar to what he described after attending a show. I don’t see any sign of trolling in his thread.

I am sorry @erik_squires treats you like this. Maybe he has a bad day

And I would avoid the Boenickes for sure. Lot better choices in the W5 price range

@soix 

that may be exactly what I’ll eventually end up trying, soix.  In the meantime I think I’m going to start working on the room. Lots of good suggestions here about that.  But thanks for the tip about the Boenicke W5s. I took a look and something like that might be more possible sooner than later. 

I hear what you’re saying, and you have my deepest sympathy because I know exactly how I’d feel in the same situation.  Then I started thinking, my system isn’t anything special, but I never came home from a show feeling disappointed with my system.  On the contrary, I was happy to find I was still hearing at home most of the goodness I heard at the show.  What occurred to me was that the systems you drooled over involved speakers with dynamic drivers — hmmm.  I like and respect the sound of Maggies a lot, but that sound just isn’t for me so I find myself wondering if maybe you should try to demo another speaker with dynamic drivers in your system if possible.  Frankly, and just spitballing here, with your electronics I bet if you heard a pair of Boenicke W5s in your room you might discover a lot of what you feel you’re missing versus what you heard at the show.  I could be totally off base here, but to me the Maggies are sticking out like a sore thumb as the potential source of your disappointment (assuming they’re properly set up and appropriate for your room).  If I were you I’d buy a pair of used dynamic speakers I was confident I could resell for little/no loss and see, for peace of mind if nothing else, if all becomes more right in your world again.  Just a wacky thought FWIW.

@erik_squires

What’s “kited around”? While you’re composing your response here’s a definition for you:

”troll”: “A…troll is someone who intentionally tries to start arguments, hostility, or conflict in an online community by posting offensive or provocative messages.”

Honestly, have you had a good look at what you’ve posted lately? You’re not the boss of us, my man. You’re just another member, like me, and you’re entitled to your opinion. But throwing shade like that does not help. I may not know enough about hi-end gear just yet, but I know a thing or two about decency. Would it kill you to have some? I’m open to suggestions, not insults.

Gawd, must there always be that guy in the life raft?

Actually, I think that the rooms were not all that bad for sound, and certainly better than most people’s home listening spaces.

The rooms were actually quite large compared to a regular living room and set up symetrically. Speakers were typically well into the room and not placed along the wall nor was the seating. Most demoers had absorbant panels or such placed next to the speaker and many, around the room.

AND..., if you sat toward the front middle, there was no furniture to get in the way and create diffraction.

I did not see the Dana Point Room as I never got to that part of the lobby until I picked up my program before leaving.  I guess that I didn't realize there was even a room over there. Damn!

Hovering over this thread is the question, "What would Monk do?"

@ghasley I’m all in. I want the sound. I don’t give a flying wallenda about the gear if it doesn’t produce the right sound. Later today I will post more up to date pictures of the gear and room to help you all help me get this right. Thanks so much!