The $27,900 disappointment? Wilson Audio Watt Puppy 8 issues.
GR Research gave a breakdown of these & I was surprised..
Owner looking to make them sound better.
The GR dude does come across as kinda dishonest in those videos trashing speakers, honestly. At the same time, it looks like he’s legit, and some of his speakers are well-regarded. So maybe he’s not doing himself any favors with the YouTube shtick. Upgrade kits can’t be such a big part of his business anyway. Which of the following is truer? 1. Negativity is bad for sales 2. Any attentoin is good attention
|
Wilson speakers utilize some wonderful ideas and the execution is often very good. However, I think a case can be made they dont sound nearly as good as they could. Now that they abandoned that awful tweeter they sound better. The problems with Wilson speakers could be considered bad engineering and design. Once again this thread veers from Wilson to if you are a Danny fan or not. |
You might want to be aware of facts before jumping on the keyboard to spread nonsense. Clearly you have no idea what you are talking about. Danny does more critical listening in a proper musical system and proper room than the rest of us individually in our lifetimes. Fixing speakers sent to him is a small part of the overall business. More importantly, he revealed the emperor (mass market speaker brands) has no clothes. |
Guys like this place actual listening, in a proper musical system, DEAD LAST. It's all about getting their test rig to show a flat FR, plus a BOM with little room for profit. So boring - like most speakers designed this way. We live in a clickbait era, so these videos get him a large audience plus a ready market to buy his stuff. Good for him. |
It is pretty much anything "manufacturer direct" that seems to get trashed here, a trend i see. It could be the middle men who don't get a piece of the 'manufacturer direct' pie perhaps. Wilson $27900 - minimum Middle man/Dealer's cut, 50% ($13950) = $13950 That's a big chunk of the pie to miss out on.
|
Tekton speakers are trashed by some here and I guess they would prefer to spend $27,900 on a Wilson that does not measure as well as it should. The bottom line- some fellow goners here like to hear themselves talk when everything they say is utter nonsense. They would have us think THEY are the speaker designers... not the makers of Wilson, Tekton or GR Research. |
Send the speakers in? For what possible reason? Nobody listens to them anyway. Wilson is the world's leading high end speaker company. In the final analysis their designs are tuned by critical listeners with extensive live music experience. Dave Wilson in this case. The Watt/Puppy, recently reintroduced, remains the largest selling high end speaker of all time. People don't spend that kind of money on badly designed speakers. |
I find it interesting that people love to hatchet others that they don't know on the 'net. @livinon2wheels I've known Danny for many, many years. He and I don't agree on everything and that is OK. He is extremely well respected in the industry, customers and reviewers because his designs bring the goods. Trashing a person and gear that you don't know is the best way to get the rep of being a troll here. His speaker upgrade service is ~ 5% of his business and he does not charge for the design work. He makes his $$$ on parts used to build his design. There are reasons that "The GR Research" rooms at audio shows were consistently judged among the best in SQ at those exhibitions. I was at that RMAF he referenced in his video concerning the Wilson Audio room. The Wilson Alexandria X2 ($158,00.00) driven by VTL Siegfried monoblocks ($65,000.00) were a huge disappointment. Too loud, too harsh in a room with zero treatment. Perhaps you should familiarize yourself with results: https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=99738.msg1004792#msg1004792
|
@hiend2 , You want crazy, like room with the rubber wallpaper crazy, go over to the 'Best audio prank ideas' thread. |
As a long time builder of high end DIY speakers, using high quality parts, good engineering practices, and hours of listening with a panel of several people to "voice them". I can state pretty confidently, that the modifications and upgrades Danny makes, are all following good engineering practices, with the goal of improving sound quality. Flattening out the very choppy frequency response, compensating for edge diffraction, improving impedance curves, reducing stored energy of the drivers, etc, is NOT a difference of opinion with the original designer on the voicing of the speaker. Bad design (as seen in the original measurements of the Watt/Puppy’s in the vid), is bad design. No good designer would set out to design a speaker with that frequency response as a goal, if they were shooting for accuracy. I am pretty balanced between an objective and subjective listener, when the context is correct for them, but there are certain objectively measurable parameters that almost always lead to an inferior sounding speaker. Just for context, I don’t own any of Danny’s speakers (I have bought his NoRes damping material), but I have heard a pair of his current 2nd top of the line kits, NX-Otica, and for the $3800 price, (and a couple of weekends of labor), the end resulting speaker can easily compete with the sound quality of speakers at 4X the price, without exaggeration. I also helped a friend upgrade a pair of Klipsch speakers with Danny’s upgrade kits, and they succeeded in turning an unlistenable pair of speakers, into a decent budget pair of speakers. |
For those who believe GR offers no value with these mods, have you ever compared a modified to stock loudspeaker? I've been modifying my speakers for over twenty years, I've found great improvements can be had with top flight film caps, resistors, inductors, internal wire, binding posts, drivers. Assuming all loudspeakers to be fully optimized in stock form may be wrongheaded.
Back in the day when I was running Merlin VSM-MM I started experimenting with Duelund VSF film caps in BAM and speakers, a great improvement vs the stock Hovlands. I spoke with Bobby (owner/designer) as to improvements I heard, Bobby had not yet heard of these caps and was none too happy to hear of my modifying his babies, yet he seemed interested. Low and behold, a few months later and Bobby's incorporated the Duelunds in the Merlins. |
Why do you feel entitled to further discussion? Fair discussion in a public forum is very passive aggressive and casts doubt as to your true motives. Exactly what is your beef? What is not backed by science or engineering? Sounds like sour grape mud slinging on your part. |
@willywonka and others who share his sentiment. I won't go so far as to say I have zero respect for GR Danny, but I don't consider him to be the most honest guy in the room. He does and says things I don't agree with and I left a lengthy comment on one of his threads on YT and told him how and why I thought he was incorrect. He vehemently disagreed with my assessment and as he wouldn't engage in a fair discussion in a public forum with me, he is just another voice in the audioVILE community that I don't consider credible. There are also others that propagate erroneous information that has no backing in science or engineering and their words are clearly spoken to market their product which oftentimes is a solution for a non-existent problem. Its pointless to get into a battle of wits with these people because they won't engage in a fair discussion because they have too much money invested in what they are selling to be unbiased. So, no...GR Danny and others like him just degrade the signal to noise ratio in the audiophile community and I will continue to ignore them and hope they go away eventually. All that said, these hucksters have a right to sell whatever they want to whomever they want, but I'm not buying. Caveat Emptor indeed. |
thecarpathian and mclinnguy thecarpathian - I thought the prices were very fair, $800ish for complete crossovers with air core inductors, high quality resistors, and high end caps (some were Solen I recall), and labor. Sorry I can't find the build sheet off hand to check brands and exact price. mclinnguy - You are correct. I had no interest in modifying with measurements and changing in that way......I'm guessing that would be helpful. I simply wanted the exact same crossover built with high end components. These speakers mean a lot to me as they were my first audiophile speakers, but in today's world are not worth a lot; maybe $1,500 or more with the improvements I've made. I've had the woofer foams replaced, the mids redone, and the emit tweeter tested......and put in some more acoustic material. I guess I could have done it myself. However I wanted to try Danny's services, I thought the price was fair, and I simply did not have time at that point to do it myself. |
Ok I wanted to clarify that before this question: @vthokie83 Everyone is focusing on the frequency response, Danny suggests it should be flat, and many responders suggesting it is not that important, yet in this case it is not measured before or after. Did this conversation come up regarding frequency response, and changing parameters to adjust for different slopes and adjusting the frequency response, assuming GR has past knowledge of these speakers, or were the same values used? |
mclinnguy That is correct, I did NOT send the speakers in. I emailed the original schematic to them, along with measurements where the finished crossovers could be installed. We agreed on my component choices. GR-Research built the crossover on HDF, and I mounted and wired it to the rest of the speaker. It's not terribly difficult as the Kappa 7s are 3 way speakers. |
A flat FR does not by itself define the sound quality of a speaker. Personal experience with multi $K speakers universally reviewed as great sounding with flat FR. They were very accurate but made music sound lifeless. Crossover had almost 2 dozen cheap parts. Rebuilding the crossover with quality parts maintained a flat FR, but brought music alive with clarity, detail, and dynamics. |
19" Sony Trinitron: "I don’t know why everyone loves these. " The most watched TV in my home is still the 9" Sony CRT hanging under the cabinets in the kitchen. 30+ years old, and counting. No service required. Ever. Yes, I had to "dumb down" the HD signal to display it. It’s been a trusted friend that’s lasted longer than (almost) anything in my entertainment world (I think the ADS 200Cs in the office might be older?) I recently upgraded one TV to a Sony OLED, so I’m not stuck in the past. But, the little 9" Trinitron just comes on when you hit the power button. |
Since I have experience with Danny's services, I'll add a quick note or two. First he does not decide to just "pick a speaker to tear apart", the speakers he works on are sent in by unhappy clients that respect Danny's work.....just like the owner sending in his 10 year old Wilson speakers. I own (and love) vintage Reference Series Infinity speakers.....I've owned many pairs, and currently own a pair of Infinity RS Kappa 7s. The crossovers are 40 years old, and use "value" parts. I wanted the crossovers updated with new high quality parts, but using the original schematic.....I sent the schematic to GR-Research to see what they could do. Danny's team communicated with me all along the way, looked over the schematic, and made some recommendations per my request. They sent me the parts list (and cost) along with some options for various components depending on cost......and why they might decide on the options. In the end GR-Research built the crossovers mounted on a HDF board, using point to point wiring, that fit well inside the speakers. I've had these speakers since I purchased them new some 35 years ago, and have thousands of hours listening to them......so I know them well of course. The sound from the Kappas has never been this good. Yes the sonic signature is still there, but the detail, clarity, impact, soundstage, and presence has never been like this. Consider me a happy customer |
Here's the best audiophile test track for GR Research speakers and GR upgraded speakers. It is one of the greatest songs ever written. Don't listen to anything else unworthy.
I'm Too Sexy (Original Mix - 2006 Version) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5mtclwloEQ
|
A friend just loaned me his 19” Sony Trinitron. I plugged it in and the Sony flickered to life. I don’t know why everyone loves these. The screen is small. Its dim (4,5 bits) It’s very heavy. The color range looks compressed and lacks accuracy. And the much lauded black level measures a dark grey. The image was fuzzy and lacked clarity but I tried a couple of mods and yield significant improvement ( I moved the antenna around and my sitting position back 17’). I highly recommend them. Then for a comparison I put it beside my Samsung QN 90D 85”.Wow . The Samsung was clearly better in every way- there was no comparison. The Sony new is $3,226 ($550 1975 dollars today), Why would anyone buy or bother to review one of these? |
@coppy777 - it is way cheaper to buy an EQ or Dirac-capable DAC than to EQ room by changing speakers. |
| Post removed |
Not sure how Danny is a Wilson competitor? Who cross shops Wilson with a GR Research kit speaker? Danny does these mod videos for education and entertainment....hoping you buy his GLS Encore kit...and then keep buying from him...he's not hiding the ball, he has said this. This is an industry where designers/engineers are secretive and here we have one of the best ones openly sharing and giving an unfiltered opinion...basically unicorn content. |
Watt-Puppy 8s? Really? These speakers are 20-30 years old. They haven't used that tweeter since then. Does this guy actually listen to the speakers? He spends the entire video talking about measurements. I owned the Watt-Puppy 7s and loved them. Auditioned the big B&W N800s, and a number of other more expensive brands at the time. On the same system at a big NY/Phila area dealer. Never liked the 8s as well. Since, owned Sashas, Yvettes, and Sasha DAWs... all great. Wilson technology, as others, has moved on. Better drivers, cabinets and crossovers. Darryl Wilson vs. Dave Wilson. Times, cables, speakers, amplification and sources are way better today. The current Watt-Puppy is a remarkable little speaker. This old, dog eared thing should be retired. |
I'm a fan of Danny. Yes, he criticizes things he thinks are wrong. He has decades designing speakers and crossovers. He has mostly been behind the scenes working for other brands. He champions DIY as a means to achieve high performance with minimized cost. The folks that say he is a "salesman" need to understand the time and energy he spends with these upgrades. Yes, he sells upgrade "kits" to folks that want to improve the performance of their speakers, but he doesn't select the speakers to upgrade. Dissatisfied owners do. He does the design work for free, and is only compensated for his time with the profit he makes on these kits. How much do you think his time was worth upgrading these Wilson's? He knows what makes a speaker sound good. He also knows how to identify design choices that make for compromised sound. He sells very modestly priced speaker kits that punch way above their price point. I built the NX-Tremes. They are sublime. Incredible at the price point, and I had fun building them. Win-win. Don't bash Danny until you look at his entire body of work. He is a huge asset to the DIY community. |
If Danny (GR Research) just presented his opinions of the questionable design decisions Wilson made with the Watt Puppy 8, I would likely not pay attention. But using before and after measurement graphs he proved why it's not a good idea to connect the 2 woofers in parallel due to the challenging 2.4 ohm load. He also proved that Wilson's mounting of the tweeter was causing excessive diffraction and figured out a simple yet effective way to use the grill to create a sort of tweeter waveguide to reduce the diffraction. If you believe measurements have little to do with a speaker's SQ, that's a different issue. It would be interesting to hear from the owner of the speakers once he got them back from Danny.
|
Many speakers priced in this range and above get carried by the front end electronics (no miracle of the speaker). There is a caliber of front end electronics (i have a few ) that can be connected to any turd of a speaker and they can still salvage the situation...paint over deficiencies/make it sound good. Above a certain threshold for competent speaker engineering, it is the electronics that caused the magic. To determine if it is really some miracle of the speaker, you would connect the same to very modest electronics as well and check how it does.
|
It's been a long time since I contributed to a forum thread here on Audiogon, but this is a topic I have direct experience with. Many people make comments on issues they have no experience with. Opinions are great, but when contributing to a thread - wouldn't identifying what kind of direct experience you have with the equipment help readers? I owned a pair of Watt Puppies, then Sasha's and then back to Watt Puppies. I owned them for more than 20 years. Here's my direct experience. Who spends the expense on Wilson speakers? Good question. While I visited my audiophile retailer (Woodbridge Stereo - a long time ago), when I first saw what I thought was the odd, funny looking speakers and commended such about them - my friend and salesmen responded in a very kind way "those speakers would humble you." It wasn't until I coincidently heard them at a much later time, that I was dumfounded by them. They completely disappeared - all I heard was performers spaced in the room, on a stage in front of me. Everything was amazingly lifelike. It was at that point that I knew one day I would have them (even though they were way out of my budget!). I eventually worked out a way to get them (another story - and thank you Woodbridge Stereo!). I paired them with a Pass XA30.5 amplifier - and they sounded great. The system weakness was tight bass - but I gave this up because everything else was amazing (I eventually upgraded to a pair of Pass XA-200.5's and enjoy music!). So, to answer a few of the questions I saw (and no, I didn't read this entire thread): - After hearing them, I couldn't enjoy music without my pair of Wilson speakers. At least not like I enjoy music now. - You need a great amplifier (and front end) to drive them. That doesn't mean you need an expensive amplifier. I enjoy my system because it does what I want it to do - that is, create the illusion of live music. We each should enjoy our system - it should do what we want it to do. A safe, healthy and happy 2025 year to everyone :-) |
You need to actually pay attention. NOT a review. Danny did not select the speakers, an owner sent in unhappy with the Wilsons. Second video pointed out how bad individual drivers measured and the potted crossover. Danny continually reveals the poor design and build quality of many speakers, all sent to him. |
