Streaming Services

The Rose rs150b has an internal Dac so just plug in the internet to the back and you can stream many of your streaming services (just log in). More importantly, through Roseradio you can stream hundreds of high quality internet stations. You can add stations to your favorites depending on your taste. Mine is Jazz vocals and I have maybe 20 in my favorites. To me this is the only way to go.

Just pick any that have lossless (or close) compression. I use Amazon Music HD, either cast through my Amazon Echo, or ripped CDs through MusicBee from my laptop to my preamp. Bits are bits (coming from a former software engineer).

@tcotruvo I think it depends on one's preference, but I find Qobuz is more consistent and natural sounding versus MQA. That said, certain songs on MQA sound fantastic. I have both for that reason and will continue to. For the reasons I mentioned though, I am on Qobuz 99% of my regular listening.

Tidal has an advantage in a better algorithm for suggestions and similar music to stuff you've added as a favorite. 

$.02 on some aspects of the discussion:

I’m of the opinion that a streamer should be for delivery only, as the DAC aspect is best served by my system’s flavor (so there’s no reason to pay for a DAC built into a streamer; the streamer’s purpose is to deliver the digital data accurately).

[Every system has its own sound - and listener(s) - of course. In my system I do use a separate DAC connected to a streamer-only device (Ifi Zen Streamer) only because my preamp has a standard limit of 24/96 - but everything delivered to its analog inputs is then treated to 24/192 translation out to active speakers, hence the sonic characteristics can be shaped the way I’d like it.]

Roon is a useful tool for streaming organization and finding new music, but I just started an Audirvana trial; so far I’m definitely sure that it blows Roon away re: database features (35 years’ experience in software design and programming, and I’m often surprised by programs like Roon which are so expensive relative to the level/features of the database). If Roon and Audirvana can’t be used together, I might just put Roon on the shelf (after requesting they become more Audirvana-like) for a while.

Re: the OP direction, if your DAC is to your liking, don’t spend needless $$ on something with a DAC. Many modern streamers have USB outputs (the Ifi among them) and that’s all you need; in fact, the USB outputs will allow the full range of input (currently) to your DAC (whereas everything other than I2S input will be limited to less).

Re: MQA. I currently don’t use it much (because there’s not much of it on Qobuz), but I’ve tried it with no problems - but in MQA I do prefer the "Studio" quality, and maybe critics don’t take notice of the quality levels before panning it (or maybe they reduce it all to measurements; I’m not one who tends to rely solely on numbers for sonic enjoyment). Re: those who claim there’s no need to care about bandwidth availability, I’d comment that they belong to an elite group - and for the world as a whole that’s not the case.

Re: the Node 130. I own it and stopped using it (partly because its analog output stinks unless you mod it and partly because of its lousy Windows interface (if you’re using it via wifi, then you’re subject to wifi issues/limitations) - but I haven’t yet sold it, so if you’re truly interested, you're welcome to PM me.

Back to the beginning, the Ifi streamer is one of the easiest solutions to try, and it seems as though it would fit well into your system (IIRC Ifi has a 30-day return policy); I’d suggest that you use something like Audirvana or Roon as the front end - it will make life easier. Best of luck with whatever you choose.

Just realized I did not put the link in to the ROON overview.   Again, that classical overview starts around the 4:30 mark.

+1 on the blue sound node 130 with an external linear power supply. Good luck !

After you get Qobuz, ...you should also get ROON ....it is AMAZING!

ROON has a 30 day free trial...get the free trial...no obligations and no strings attached.  Roon will revolutionize how you listen to music.

Get the 30 day free trial...you have no idea of what you're missing.

Phase I: what  @lalitk says.

Phase II: what @testrun says about Roon.  

Here is Roon overview.  Advance to around the 4:30 mark to see how it manages classical music. 

@christianb5s4 You recently said, “MQA is hit or miss in terms of sound quality”.

I play Radio.Paradise MQA through a Node 3 and SMSL M400.  I noticed, for example, that in some Nora Jones songs her voice is lost in a mess of bass.  A Samantha Fish song goes in and out of volume so it is sometimes nearly inaudible.  I wondered what the cause is.  On the other hand, most things sound great - so why the variability?

Does this fit what you are describing?  I don’t want to chase solutions that are caused by someone else.

OP, “…I’ve gathered that a streamer’s part is more than that.”

Absolutely! it is somewhat like the turntable / cartridge in the analog end in front of the Phono stage… so the streamer in front of DAC. Stand alone, purpose built streamers simply sound better.

Reasons, electrical and physical isolation, cacheing, I have had a dozen streamers over the last fifteen years and it doesn’t get high fidelity until you get to a high quality stand alone streamer. I now own the best streamer I have ever heard… it uses a battery to power the audio circuits and recharges while not in use, is built like a tank, and is far more reliable with sound even when my iPad will not refresh the screen. FYI, my streamer is the Aurender W20SE.

A few people have successfully upgraded every aspect of their Ethernet, router, MacBook… (as in shut down all processes and lots of fiddling) and gotten close… but it is a very difficult way to get nearly there.

Besides audio performance per se, there are other things a streamer might or might not have or do that can be useful to the user:

1. Have a useful display. The current Auralics by default display the IP address on the startup screen. That can eliminate a lot of fussing around. Then, the album cover when playing.
2. Internal storage. I’m not a user of that, but some like it. (I use a NAS.)
3. Access to different streaming services. Amazon can be difficult to use in a WiFi streaming context unless directly supported by the streamer.
4. Compatibility with different playing software and quality of the manufacturer-supplied software. Cambridge units have been incompatible with standard software, which rules them out for me. And even if one doesn’t use the manufacturer’s software regularly, it may be important occasionally, e.g., for configuration.
5. Roon Ready. Critical for many of us, not for everyone.
6. Ability to play and/or rip CDs. (see my previous post)
7. Ability to play audio files from an attached USB thumb and/or hard drive.
8. Ease, quality, regularity of software updates.
9. Quality of tech support. A good forum solves a lot of user problems.

I probably have forgotten some others.

One additional thought.  I went with Roon because it is a really easy user friendly application that allows for integration of all music to most any systems (end points) in Roon terms.  In my case I have two separate Sonas systems in addition to my main system and Roon enables all music on all systems at the same time ( ie surround on TV, home office as well as phone, car, etc

I’ve been down this path a few times.  Ended up with Roon (meta data manager and music search engine and catalog, Qobuz,  Bricasti w/ network card and Small Green Computer (dedicated music server).  The SGC solved all my network interrupts and latency issues and offered a great solution for storing and integrating my music collection.  Roon is managed but SGC, Bricasti serves as steamer / renderer.  There are a lot of great DAC’s out there.  You have a wonderful system and I suspect you will take some time to land on the DAC that fulfills your tastes.  Enjoy the journey. Access to all the artists and music available on Qobuz and the ability to search, store build playlists and the convenience will make it all worth while. 

Forgot to add. A better steamer into your DAC could be all you’ll ever need
especially if you put some care into your signal via ethernet in. Like power internet signals can be and often are dirty.

@rbschauman

KISS. Before ever posting I read for many years. @lalitk knows his stuff and his consise entry recommendations are excellent.

The typical pathway into steaming is from conputer to low end streamer and then to mid to high end gear with cleaned up internet. The pursuit of high end streaming yields sound as good as a fancy cd setup, most turn tables but maybe not a high five to six figure record rig. Many here agree/disagree with this and there’s a trove of previous “discussions” on steaming and vinyl setups. And now DSP’s able to fix room problems too. Thanks Pandora.

As many have already suggested, Quobuz is my preferred service.

Also as many have suggested, you will have to dump the Mac as a streamer. Even an entry level BlueSound Node 130 (newest version) will provide a great interface and superior sound quality. Add a quality linear power supply and excellent USB cable and you are set as a starter package. I'm still using this package (with a Denafrips IRIS DDC outputting I2S to Denafrips Pontus II DAC) until I can save up for an Aurender N200 at $6,300

BlueSound Node 130 (latest version) $600

LHY BlueSound Node 130 Linear Power Supply kit $279

High quality USB cable (Supra Excalibur USB cable) eBay seller Zendada is preferred distributor $140

Total $1,019 for a terrific starter steaming setup with a great interface. And you can compare the internal DAC of the Node 130 to your DAC and see what differences you see. I personally use a Denafrips Pontus II, for about $1,850

Amazon high rez is the best overall deal.

Nothing wrong with using your Macbook into a DAC for streaming. It’s the same raw signal coming into the device and then going out to the DAC, and the DAC becomes the important part. The Macbook is kind of irrelevant. I stream mainly from my iPad into a DAC and that is my favorite way to use Amazon HD audio. I’m still searching for a separate streaming component for my main system, and taking input from these forums. I’m not going to pay for multiple services, and unless Amazon shows quality issues with the audio it’s a good fit for us. My main issue with the devices out there is that it’s rare to find one that not only has good streaming services, but can also store and play local files. Tough to beat the BluOS system, (BlueSound devices) but the Node needs a decent DAC, and the devices from other brands such as NAD do not have all the functionality I want. Not going to spend more than $5k for a device that "should" be better than my iPad and DAC combo, especially when most of those devices are missing one function or another. Frustrating.

@rbschauman 
Being new to streaming, I would start off with Node130 as @curiousjim and @fuzztone pointed out and use your CJ DAC via USB. Avoid the headaches with Laptop and start off on a solid / stable foundation with Node130. The BluOS Controller app is easy to follow (iPad recommended) and provides seamless integration for many cloud based streaming services. A wired Ethernet connection is recommended for better sound quality and network stability. You can get your streaming system up n running in 3 easy steps, don’t overthink it.

Step 1 - Buy Node 130 and good quality USB cable

Step 2 - Use Wired Ethernet connection to Node130

Step 3 - Sign up with Qobuz

Until you fully acclimated with streaming just ‘save’ the comments like streaming is not good enough vs local files; MQA vs DSD vs FLAC endless debates for later. There is plenty of great sounding content on streaming. Embrace Streaming, sit back and enjoy!

Innuos is what I use for a streamer with their external power supply. Like their free software with upgrades. Customer Service has been great and I have ripped my 1031 cd's to it. Very much enjoyed getting that done. Tidal for music but listening to Radio Paradise and WNCW mostly. 

+1 @fuzztone. However, none of the streaming services will sound as good as local music files, so understand there are limitations, even with Quobuz. I’ve seen audio magazine reviewers use albums from streaming services for their reviews. I don’t know how they can do that considering the level of inconsistency in sound and the number of variables there are with internet streaming. Good luck and enjoy. 

Thank you, kiwiscott!

Your posts are going to be extremely helpful as I go through my search!

I greatly appreciate the time and thought you put into them to help me out!

Since I wrote this there’s three other features worth considering: 

4. buffering. Does the device buffer the songs locally before sending to the DAC. This is helpful in cases where the network is unreliable and can help keep the data aligned properly without gaps. 
5. local storage. Some streamers are starting to offer storage that lets you store music locally and stream direct from those devices. This is a great feature as you can reduce your dependence on streaming (assuming you want to buy or rip music to your streamer). 
6. Formats or Codecs. There’s still an on boing debate about MQA vs DSD vs FLAC etc. for now that largely irrevelant but the streamer and Dac combo need to support the codec etc. the debate largely revolves around getting the best quality in the smallest file that still has all the music that’s audible to your ears. With the DAC you have ignore it and just use Qobuz.

FWIW, BluSound, Auralic and Innous are great options. Ive decided to go Innous but it’s out of my budget right now so I’m experimenting with a low cost (and quite brilliant offering) a WiiM Mini for a total cost of $89 from Amazon. 

PS. One gotcha with the streaming services is that you don’t always get to use there app with the streamer you’re using. 
 

Question: What makes a streamer better than another? The ability to...

opions vary but there’s three basic functions of a streamer: 

1. the app that runs the streamer some are better than others. 
2. Bit perfect time aligned data. like in high-end audio, such as an amp, the quality of the power supply and the internal components can greatly impact the sound quality. This is more subtle than analog noise - organizing  data to a Dac relies on organizing the data with minimal noise and precise time aligned data. 

3. Digital output options. There’s many options for output. In your case USB into the Conrad dac is planet to get you started.

Your DAC is a great place to start. Looking at the specs it gives you a  24/96 data stream. The first part represents the amplitude or the gap between the highest and lowest values your Dac will send the amp. The second part represents the number of times per second that value can change. Like CD vs SACD there’s a debate about what you can hear vs not hear but the consensus appears to be CD quality 16/44 is not as good as higher quality rates 24/96 etc. 

here’s a good article about services and the basics of streaming. 

The 24 represents the number

I’ll confess that when I started this thread I thought that a streamer or computer’s part in the streaming process was to simply relay a digital signal to a DAC and then the DAC would take that signal and work magic to output a quality analog sound.

I’ve gathered that a streamer’s part is more than that.

Question: What makes a streamer better than another? The ability to...

Thank you!

Had Tidal, Qobuz and Amazon.

Kept Qobuz.

Just get a Blusound, the best "first" streamer. It will make a fool out of the Mac sound.

I think your plan of taking it slow is a good one. Use your Mac and see if you like it. I also second the opinion of those who emphasize the importance of the software to the experience. Mac and Apple Music, try a little Quboz, see what sticks. If the sound quality isn’t up to snuff for you, you now know there are other options. Based on your responses, I think you might be well served upgrading eventually to one of the so-called ‘all-in-ones’ or ‘single-box’ solutions (provided the software is up to snuff). The sound quality is excellent, and you can treat it simply as a source into which you can load and store CDs etc. Very easy to use. Satisfying. Innuous, Arrender, Auralic, and others have much to offer. From what I can gather, the USB interface has been well sorted by now (it used to ba a problem); although a single-box should offer additional options. 

Thank you, curious jim for sharing how your using USB to DAC!

Well, pardon me but in looking back through posts, I see that mike_in_nc stated "I have used many streamers, and I’m happy with my Auralic Aries G1. It can output USB, SPDIF, or AES3 into a DAC".

It can be output to USB - great to know!

Forgive my ineptness here, I started this thread not knowing anything about streamers.

I have a Node N130 with a better power supply and am using USB to my DAC. I’m using Amazon HD and Qobuz. Both have good user software and decent sound, but Qobuz has a better selection of music and if you pay yearly, it only a few bucks a month more.

All the best.

My MacBook can output an optical signal out of the headphone jack.  There’s a lot of respectable DACs on the used market for reasonable prices, you could get one that handles that optical input signal—Bryston BDA-1 perhaps?  Sending the signal over optical would isolate that electrical noise generating by the laptop.

I don’t recommend, although they have lossless available their selection doesn’t stack up.

If you have a good DAC consider a dacless streamer, I have had and or borrowed several, the best sounding was the Stack Link however this had an awful app and refused to work in a mac environment, even the dealer couldn't make it work. OK was a Sonore Microrendu but too many drop outs, same with iFi Streamer it had DAC compatibility issues, Pro Ject was quite awful, more expensive ones were OK but no better than the Lindemann Limetree  Bridge I have now,

Seeing all these responses is wonderful. This is all new to me and I have been given a lot to go from - thank you everyone! I'm sure others will benefit as well.

I will share that I just bought this Conrad Johnson HD3 USB DAC because it is the same brand as my other electronics (see original post that began this thread + I also have Conrad Johnson DV2B Tube CD player). I thought this could get me going with streaming. CJ puts it this way for this DAC  "The HD3 is an audiophile grade digital to analog converter for use with a computer based audio source". 

This DAC only has a USB input.

Silly Question: Are there Streamers that can connect to a USB only device like this?

Thank you!

I use Amazon.  Qobuz is 10.95 I think.  I can't move all my music that I picked out..I tried Qobuz and found no difference.  At the time , they had 60 million songs.  All songs are at least 16/44.1.  You will want to run Cat 6 or higher or optical.  You will find all kinds of albums you always wanted to hear or new music.

@ghdprentice  why would tidal work and Qobuz didn't work when my internet speed was slowed down for a few hours?

Whether your streamer is effected by a slowdown in internet speed is primarily a function of your streamer. A high quality streamer will cashe the files, isolating you from all but extended incredibly low speeds. The bandwidth used by streaming services today is miniscule. 

@yoyoyaya if your internet speed slows down for whatever reason tidal will still work, but Qobuz will not, that tells me that Qobuz is uncompromising which is good.

After my recent digital front end upgrade I signed up for Qobuz to compare against Tidal - Qobuz was the easy winner.

I downgraded Tidal to the basic level (no MQA access) a long time ago. 

Every streamer review I’ve seen where the reviewer has changed from some kind of Mac had the reviewer raving about the improvement. I don’t understand why, but just saying....

I have used many streamers, and I’m happy with my Auralic Aries G1. It can output USB, SPDIF, or AES3 into a DAC. (If you want to spend more, there’s the Auralic Aries G2.1 and many other options.) It’s built like a tank and among other services, it does support Amazon and Qobuz (I use and recommend Qobuz).

It will even let you hook up a USB optical disc reader and play CDs using the Auralic's buffering and reclocking. That sounds really good to me and better than the $1000+ transport I was using.

(@cosmic_charlie : Auralic added Amazon support some time in the last year or so.)

@Larry5729 - Qobuz hi resolution files are less processed than MQA files on Tidal. Many people can hear artifacts generated by the MQA process and prefer the unprocessed files e.g. from Qobuz. BTW Tidal did not develop MQA. It was invented by Bob Stuart, originally the founder of Meridian (along with Allen Boothryod). MQA is a form of compression which is unnecessary given the bandwidth now available for streaming.

My experience with Tidal, Qobuz, and Amazon HD is that they are equal in SQ.  I agree with the comments above that your DAC and Streamer need to be in the same league as all your other components.  Your choice of streamer may dictate your choice of streaming service.  The only streamer I know of that supports Amazon, for example,  is the BlueOs Node 2i, which is an excellent value for the money, but far below the quality that those terrific Quattros want.   Some streamers support Tidal or Qobuz, and some do both.  Amazon HD had the deepest library for my taste, but virtually no high end streamers support it.  Streaming is my only source and based on my experience, I recommend the best DAC and Streamer (separates) you can afford.  They both matter. A lot!

I have a BlueSound Node 2i and use Tidal.  After I purchased my new speaker wires from The Cable Company, the sales person told me I should connect my BlueSound to my ARCAM using digital cable.  He said the DAC inside my ARCAM was better than than the DAC inside the BlueSound.  However, by using the digital cable I now only get 1/10 the unfold of MQA.  He told me losing MQA is not a big deal and my system will would sound better than using my BlueSound by itself.  If I am only getting 1/10 the unfold of MQA, does that mean I lost my high res quality sound.  The problem with testing which sounds better is the time it takes to switch back and forth the way things are connected fast enough to compare sound quality.

I was having problems with my ARCAM and the ARCAM rep came out to troubleshoot.  While there, he demoed QObuz.  I thought QObuz sounded better than Tidal.  Is that because QObuz does not fold their files in order to generate hi res files?  I heard the reason why Tidal developed MQA was because internet speeds were slow and transporting hi res files was difficult.  Perhaps this is why QObuz does not fold their files.

Hope I am making sense.  This is difficult to understand.  

My experience is a bit different.  I have a McIntosh MX 123 AV processor in my main system.   It came with Apple Music built in, so it does not require a separate streamer.  I tried a Bluesound Node with Qobuz, and it was not as good.  I was also unsuccessful with Qobuz in my office, running through my Mac Mini computer, as it kept cutting out.  I discontinued my Qobuz subscription and am very pleased with Apple Music, which streams well through my Mac computers.  So, if you do not decide to buy a high-end streamer, and continue using your Mac as a streamer, I suggest Apple Music.  

That's easy, specially for classical, Qobuz.

They have free trials so you can see and hear for yourself. I have Tidal, Qobuz and Spotify, all together they’re cheaper than buying a couple LPs per month.

+1 @ghdprentice ...

Of the many choices there are all in one streamers with built in DAC's and separates. DAC a must.

There's something called ROON that has the best interface.  It's a shell over your Qubuz(or many others) account and is tiptop.  You should sniff that out too. It can run with a computer but as many have said please don't do that. Some streamers are not compatible with Roon and please be cautions to get one that's roon compatible as someday you may wind up there.

Steaming's best when not done via your computer. Treat yourself and fasten your seatbelt.

I’ve had Spotify, Amazon,Tidal,and Qobuz.  I found Spotify to have the largest library, Qobuz has the best sound quality.  

I've tried pretty much every individual streaming service there is, and personally have concluded Qobuz is my favorite. Sound quality is best in my experience and the music selection covers everything I could imagine.

Tidal isn't bad either but MQA is hit or miss in terms of sound quality, and their selection definitely skews more towards hip-hop and pop. I was not impressed at all with the highest level version of Amazon Music.

Thank you all for the responses! The consensus is Qobuz and I will go with that service.

For me, a tremendous value in creating this thread being that in my newness to streaming I had not even heard of this service before. I am very grateful to now know of it!

For now, the Conrad Johnson HD3 USB DAC I have does have a USB port that I'll hook to my MacBook. Once that's down, I'll begin a next step with equipment upgrade.

Thanks again, everyone!

Best,

Randy

If your DAC accepts usb, then you can use a computer and get decent results. It helps to use a program such as Audirvana. This basically tries to inactivate the parts of your computer that don’t involve sound reproduction and can introduce noise. It also provides a graphical interface so that you can more easily find your music. One disadvantage is that you shouldn’t use your computer for anything else while playing music. Qobuz works well with Audirvana, not sure about the other streaming services.

Having said all that, I would get a dedicated streamer. It’s much easier and probably will sound better. You will probably be able to use more options than usb.

I have tried a few different ones and have settled on the Cambridge Audio CXN 60. It comes with a decent DAC, which you won’t need, but can natively stream Qobuz and Tidal. If you want to use Amazon or Apple it offers both Chromecast and Apple AirPlay, which allows you stream from a mobile device (Chromecast is really excellent but you need an Android mobile device, AirPlay is at least close to CD resolution for Apple devices). The CA is also tremendous with Internet Radio and Podcasts. I listen to the BBC Radio Three offerings via Chromecast at full resolution, much preferable to their scrawny 64bps Internet stream.

. I had one streamer that cost three times the CA, but it had an absolutely awful software program. The slight improvement in sound quality wasn’t worth the agony of trying to actually use the thing.  The software program to control your streaming experience is extremely important and whatever direction you choose you should try to investigate each device’s program before you buy.

Which service? Qobuz is the best for Classical. Good sound, large catalog, decent search engine. Customer service non existent. My wife really preferred Apple Music, and Apple had recently purchased a smaller Classical service called Primephonic and has an extensive Classical catalog. If you have a problem you can actually get a human at Apple Support.  They now offer high resolution recordings. I use streaming primarily to audition unfamiliar or new recordings and if I really like something will purchase the CD or download. If streaming was to be my only source of Music I would probably opt for Qobuz