Speakers sound too bright.

I would think you would have noticed this when you auditioned the speakers.  I hope they covered their return policy when you purchased them.  Did you read any reviews?

Break in and room acoustics are both very important. Find a playlist, any playlist on your favorite streaming service and let them rip for a couple of days.  Then try listening to them again. Carpet, book shelves with books, curtains are some simple things you can use in your room. Here’s a cheap way that I still use.  I bought one of those cheap, foldable room dividers and tossed a comforter over it. 
 

All the best.

Please let us know how things are sounding after break in.  You may get some very noticeable improvements.  It will be a question of if it's enough to make you tap your foot!  Good luck and cheers. 

Maybe borrow a pair of speakers with soft dome tweeters? 

Thanks everybody.  I'm going to let them break in and give them a chance.  I will make the suggestion of jumper wire and the bi-wire option.

That being said, what about the polarity discovery that I mentioned above in the thread.  One speaker had a positive polarity and the other speaker had a negaive polarity.  Speaker cable connection are running positive to positive and negative to negative.  Is the polarity discrepancy normal.  Do I leave it as is?

You might also try changing the tubes in your Freya+.
 

I found that a combination of Ken-Rad VT231’s in the gain stage and 5692’s in the buffer stage (RCA or CBS Hytron) to have the most solid bass. For a more budget friendly alternative, get Sylvania 6SN7 GTB’s from the 1960’s (about $35 each from Brent Jessee) and you might find that your high end is now airy without being so bright. BTW, any Martin Logans I’ve ever auditioned have been bright to my ears. But don’t discount the tubes in your preamp, especially if they are new production. They can sound hard.

something interesting last night, I checked the polarity last night and my left speaker was positive and the right was negative. Everything was plugged in color coordinated between the amp and speakers.

OP, I am not sure I understand what you are saying about L speaker being + and R speaker being -?  Are you saying that although they are hooked up correctly they are out of phase?  How did you measure or test for that?

I used an app to determine polarity of each spekaer.  The left resulted with a polarity of positive.  The right speaker after the test resulted with a polarity of negative.  Should the polarity of both speakers be positive?  I'm not sure how to determine "phase". 

The app sends tones through the speaker and then gives me the result. Either positive or negative. 

@rwalsh07 , I am about as low tech as it gets  when it comes to apps and such, but it sounds as if your app is telling you that the speakers are out of phase with each other. But I could be wrong about that, as I am not by any means an audio or electronic guru.

I actually use a Sheffield Labs test CD with an in phase/out of phase track. It’s either Rodger Scoff or Doug Sax (I think it’s Rodger on that track) saying something to the effect of, "In phase--my voice should be located between your two speakers and tightly focused," and then, "out of phase--my voice should have no apparent focus and should sound as if it is coming from all around the room." And on my system it does. But that’s about as high tech as I ever get with that.

Obviously, I'm not either given me having to ask the question.  lol  I appreicate you chimming in though!

To test a speaker use a standard battery, 1.5 to 9v and connect to your speaker.  positive to positive should move the woofers towards the listener.  Most important is for both speakers to move the same way.

Ignore the app. Make sure the amp’s positive (red) terminal is connected to the speaker’s positive terminal and the amp’s negative (black) terminal to the speaker’s negative terminal. On both speakers. If one speaker was connected backwards, the bass is out of phase and will cancel out.

If the speakers are connected correctly (see above) and they are still too bright, try replacing the positive terminal strap that connects the upper and lower positive speaker terminals with a small value resistor and connect your speaker cables to the lower set of terminals. 1 ohm, 1.5 ohm or 2 ohms will drop the level of the midrange and and high frequencies a touch, more with the higher values.  5 or 10 watt resistors are far cheaper than new speakers!  And before I get roasted for modifying the crossover, please note that Wilson, Magnepan and others offer this same option to tune the level of their high frequencies, too. Those M-L speakers are excellent, don’t give up on them!

As someone once said " shiit in shiit out " or something like that. 

Someone else mentioned esl15a as a comparison and I would highly recommend that speaker instead of what you have,  on the other hand it's a bit more expensive 😉 

Run the lumin in dsd mode that sounds warmer 

"Ignore the app. Make sure the amp’s positive (red) terminal is connected to the speaker’s positive terminal and the amp’s negative (black) terminal to the speaker’s negative terminal. On both speakers. If one speaker was connected backwards, the bass is out of phase and will cancel out."

Maybe not. Maybe the app is correct and one of the speakers has reversed magnetism? This does happen and I have a professional JBL woofer like this which is reported by one of their authorized service reps as happening for about 1 in 50 woofers!

I just couldn’t get the two woofers to phase properly when connected the same. I discovered that when a compass is held up to the front of the two woofers, one shows north and the other shows south! YEAH THEY DO!!!

Or maybe the wires are crossed inside the cabinet and the external connection would appear correct?

A 1.5 volt battery is probably the best way to check.

To rule out a speaker being wired incorrectly internally and assuming you have your speakers hooked up correctly, just play tracks 22 and 25 from this — no need to mess with resistors and such. Left should be left, center should be center, and right should be right and if all that lines up your phase is fine. I continue to think it’s break in, but you should consult your dealer to get their thoughts as well.

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_ndrls3SVVIl_vwa6lSQILyH7DnQGCevqg

While checking internal and external wiring for correct phase is always a good check (noting internal wiring checks a difficult task that may void warranty) and out of phase wiring will potentially cancel or reduce bass output, cause potential, perceived brightness due to lack of base, it also produces a characteristic hollow sound and incorrectly wide staging effects.  I recommend you check but do not consider this a probable root cause if you are not hearing the characteristic hollow sound and staging effects.  

If you had speakers in the same room that sounded good to you, return the speakers.  I had the same issue with B&W 702 S2 towers.  The dealer told me to burn them in for 100 hours.  4 days later they sounded the same.  I returned them.  Life is too short.  A lot of good speakers available that will sound good to you in your room.  Suggest buying from a dealer or direct from manufacturers that will let you buy, try and return if necessary.  

I had the Motion 40's (same tweeter) and then the upgraded AMT tweeter (bigger) in the ML 35XTi, which was a good bit better that I could not go back to the Motion 40's.

The tweeter in the newest ML, the B100 (which is way more expensive) is the "gen 2" tweeter (35Xti being the first generation). The B100 has the "waveguide" built into the cabinet, but otherwise it is the same size. I could not hear a difference between the 35Xti (that I still have) and B100 I heard at Best Buy. 

I only bi-wired my 35Xti's, using Audioquest Type 4 or 5. If the manufacturer goes to the expense of adding a second set of speaker terminals, I see that as a sign that it does increase performance.

It certainly is not your DAC. I have an Yggy and it is not bright. Would suggest leaving it on all the time though. If you ever feel the case of the Yggy and its slightly warm, it will sound best. 

Someone mentioned using a better pair of tubes that came with your Preamp. That will help a lot. Probably should have done that before switching out your speakers as it makes a difference with all speakers. The JJ tubes that came with my Rogue RP-1 were far inferior to the NOS Mullards ($120 a pair) that I replaced them with. Most noticeably in the upper frequencies.

Your room, not treated, certainly has something to do with your perceived brightness. In fact, that may be where you could make the most difference using the least amount of money. 

I love AMT tweeters. But I generally listen to soft dome with a pair of Wharfedale Linton Heritage Speakers. Since AMT is relatively new to market (90's when the patent expired allowing the technology to be utilized by many- and blossomed in the 2000's) there is (as someone stated) a wide margin between low dollar AMT speakers and high dollar AMT speakers. Hence, if I had my druthers, I would have a pair of Wharfedale Elysian's (5K and up) which have a super AMT tweeter instead of the Heritage with soft dome I listen to now.

IMHO, the ML 35XTi with its AMT Tweeter provides better highs than the soft dome on the Linton's- at a far lesser price especially if used - but with the Lintons everything else is better mid-bass, bass, cohesiveness..etc. But AMT tweeters - good ones - really are a treat, especially with expressive tubes in the Preamp outputs. 

Just make sure your positive outputs from the amplifiers is connected to the positive inputs of the speakers and same with the negative side. Also get rid of the jumper straps.

@rwalsh07 Try one or more Akiko Audio tuning sticks on your Lumin, DAC, and/or preamp. In my system they definitely tame the higher frequencies.

The sound of speakers varies greatly during the course of break in. I try not listen to them during break in because inevitably they will sound awful at some point. I then think I have terrible speakers, when after they are broken in, they sound great. Try not to pass judgment too early.

I have played with ML speakers for decades and a few things to keep in mind are: 1) They are line sources that radiate in both directions and 2) they are a capacitive load not a resistive load.  

Others have mentioned room treatment.  Because they are line sources, floor, ceiling and side walls are not a big problem, but the back wall needs to be treated.  I think only having 1 ft behind the speakers is a big part of your issue.  Mine are 6ft from the wall and I have a combination of absorption and diffusion to tame the back wall reflection.  GIK was helpful in developing room treatments. I’d reach out to them.

The other thing that I have found is that most solid state amps are designed to drive resistive loads.  I have tried many high end amps, but always found the best results with a high power tube amp and a solid state pre.  A few years back I demo’d and then eventually purchased a SANDERS amp to drive the speakers.  It is specifically designed to drive ESL capacitive loads.  I then paired it with a tube pre.  

Speakers are only one part of a good system.  The room and amplification also need to matched to the job.  They are tricky speakers to drive and to set up but they are sublime once you do.  I also have large woofer towers to provide the bottom end.  

I spent a year with a pair of Martin Logan Motion 40's... the model below the 60's. I purchased them used so they were fully broken-in. Bright is not a word I would use to describe them. Sweet and airy is how I would describe the Folded Motion Tweeter. I sold them and still regret letting them go.

In my opinion they need more time. The manual with my 40's said to break-in @ 92dB for many hours if not days... I forget exactly the time specified. Personally I would not play them that loud but a longer break-in could be the key. As someone else mentioned, play them constantly at normal levels for a week or two or three. Or until the return window is near. Many days of playing time also made a huge difference in a pair of speakers I got with aluminum dome tweeters. And check for any issues upstream.

So you are getting a lot of advice that your speakers shouldn't be too bright.  I have a couple of thought.

1.  I have seen silver or silver plated speaker cables make the sound bright.

2.  You should confirm all the bass drivers are working.  play music with bass in it and gently touch each cone to confirm is it vibrating/moving on the bass note.

Jerry

I adjusted settings in my streamer last.  I had it set to up sampling on various khz rates.  I changed them to native band it warmed the speakers up a bit.  I also played with the position a bit and adjusted my REL subwoofer.  It seems to have helped. I'm going to give them a bit to break in as well. 

I did also order some jumpers to give rid of the factory provided metal jumpers.

Is it worth changing out my Blue Jean speaker cables?  I feel like some of these expensive cables are over hyped.  If its suggested not to keep the Blue Jean cables, what relatively inexpensive cables would you guys suggest.  

The speakers actually sound pretty darn good, perhaps my ear is just adjusting to them from the previous KEFs.

And you right, bright is probably the incorrect term, definitely harsh in the midrange and upper high frequencies though.  There's no way I could have long periods of elevated volume, at least as of right now. 

I also would hate to start selling equipment and start going down that rabbit hole again.  Its out of my budget.  I'm a blue collar worker.lol.  Champagne test on a beer budget.

I welcome and appreciate further inputs.  

@rwalsh07  -  You are correct in not going down the rabbit hole right off the bat.  The key is to not start changing too many variables all at once.  Otherwise you will be chasing your tail and throwing away money. Give the speakers time to break in.  Play with the speaker placement, even if the location/toe/etc. is temporary, just to see how they respond.  (i.e. maybe move them further out from the wall or further apart, or closer together, you get the idea.)  Maybe some makeshift acoustic treatments on the wall(s).  And as you said, let your ear adjust from the KEFs and get used to different sound.  

Once you have done that and have a better feel for the MLs, then decide if they are going to work for you.  At that point, then you can worry about new speaker cables, or different electronics if you need to.

... just a nickel's worth of advice...

- Jeff.

Thank you Jeff

@rwalsh07 

Speakers being out of phase was brought up earlier.  I think the emphasis was on individual drivers within one or both of the speakers being wired out of phase.

Sorry if this has already been brought up, but it is a 10 second test.  On ONE of the speakers ONLY, I would connect the red (positive) speaker wire to the black (negative) speaker terminal and the black (negative) speaker wire to the red (positive) speaker terminal.  Just to see if it helps in case one of the whole speakers was wired out of phase.

Regarding Blue Jeans speaker wire, they predominately use Belden and Canare speaker wire.  I have both.  The Canare 4s11 is considered very good by many.  I did not like the Belden quite as much but many like and use it without problem.

np... and as you learn stuff, please post any insights or new questions, for the next person who may run into a similar problem.

It's all part of what makes this hobby fun...   (or extremely aggravating )

Is it worth changing out my Blue Jean speaker cables?  I feel like some of these expensive cables are over hyped.  If its suggested not to keep the Blue Jean cables, what relatively inexpensive cables would you guys suggest.  

You have some very good equipment that outclasses your speaker cables IMHO.  I’ll reiterate my earlier recommendation for these Acoustic Zen shotgun bi-wire cables that at $350 are an absolute steal and should be a big improvement.  I sold a pair of them to someone I think was using Mogami or Canare and was floored by the improvement, and these are so cheap if they don’t work out you could turn around and sell them likely for a profit.  Just do it!

https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/650194860-acoustic-zen-satori-shotgun-biwired-speaker-cables/

You said your KEF were too analytical/metallic. The KEF concentric driver is not metallic sounding, just the opposite. It's extended but not harsh at all. So, will will never like the ML ribbons. Send them back and get something more mellow. 

Yeah, if they dont work out, will probably try Lintons next.  For now, I'm going to give it 30 days and make a decision at that point. I have 60 days to return them.

@mvanwoert

I have played with ML speakers for decades and a few things to keep in mind are: 1) They are line sources that radiate in both directions and 2) they are a capacitive load not a resistive load.  

When I looked up the OP's speakers, they are conventional box speakers with dynamic drivers (magnets, coils and cones) plus an unconventional tweeter!  A far cry from the MLs of old ...

Try Kimber Kable 8tc.Will add warmth to your sound.

I really liked my Lintons. I'd like to hear the new Super Lintons.

What did you have before the Lintons?

Im gonna take a guess and say the problem in this room is they are a dipole sending tons of energy (50% of its total output) on the wall behind the speakers. This energy is reflected back into the listening space with a delay that is created by the distance from the speaker to the wall behind them and then back again. This delayed HF is being added back to the non delayed main output from the front of the speaker all of it summed together at your ear. This is the same issue when we talk about first reflections: the same sound taking two different length paths to your ear is a sure way to mess up any speaker. Usually the top end is the most offensive as we are very senstive to this information. I bet if we measured phase in the room it would be severely messed up by this major reflection.

Dipoles are wonderful but very challenging -you need large spaces to make them sing. Id say this room is not right for a dipole. Nearly impossible to fix in too small a space sorry to say!

Brad

Swap in  a pair or 2 of Jps Labs Super Conductor series 1 interconnects

Will tame them down,

Dont overspend on this If you do not like them return them

I had the ML 15i and didn't find it bright but I tend to favor speakers some find brighter for whatever reason.   Had Focals if that tells you something and have a variety of others that most would not call dark or warm.

Although they were very articulate and voices semed natural with good control of sibilance and very suitable for movies, they couldn't convey space/spatial effects well in soundtracks and sounded a bit unnatural and perhaps fatiguing with music particularly instruments for me. 

I blamed this not on the tweeter but the Alum woofer that for some reason I do not seem to like.  I tried alot of speakers with Alum drivers, some better for my tastes than others but all sold or returned, regardless of the great discounts I received.

I would say if they are bothering you, either you can sell them or if returnable, then do so.  Some well liked speakers by most do not work for all. 

As for myself, I seem to like paper/treated and/or polypropylene woofers better regardless if the tweeter it soft/metal/AMT, etc.  Metal infused drivers seem to much in certain ways for me.  Even if it is made to sound refined, it still seems off for me.  Exciting yes, overall listenable...not so much, but that's me.

@larry5729 if you don't have any constructive suggestions then keep them to yourself.  We are not here to berate the guy.

Doesn't @larry5729 kinda have a point though? 

@bigtwin that web site you shared is intriguing. I have a very challenging listening room - 15’ wide, 24.5’ deep, 6.67’ high (yeah, low ceiling) with a couple of support poles and ceiling beams across the width. And, there is a corner angled in the back. Ignoring the poles and beams, the app suggests cutting the back of my room to about 20.15’, which eliminates the angled corner, nominally giving me a "black zone" set of dimensions!

It’s interesting enough that I am ordering a ceiling rail and thick curtains to see what happens. Thanks for the tip.

BTW Two side-by-side systems:

Eversolo A6 to PrimaLuna EVO 300 Integrated to Klipsch Heresy pair

Roon Nucleus One to McIntosh C53 (DA2 DAC) to MC312 to B&W702S3 pair with REL t/7x pair

You mentioned that your room is 30' x 30'.  How high are your ceilings?  That is a large volume of space.  I think you might find that this has as much-or more-to do with the loudspeaker's interaction with the room, than it does with the loudspeaker itself.  A square room is going to have more pronounced standing wave issues at certain frequencies where they double up, due to the even dimensions.  Go to https://realtraps.com/modecalc.htm and download the ModeCalc and plug your dimensions in and see what you get.  It displays the first 16 axial modes up to 500Hz.  With your dimensions you will see what you are up against and can start making better decisions about what you will want to own. 

I would think it's primarily between your ear and the speakers. If they sound too bright, your ears are telling you what you may not want to hear, no pun intended. I would not tweak anything, but return the speakers. 

Or you can buy and EQ, quickest and cheapest trick.

I purchased a pair of Zu Soul Supremes and had the same issue. I waited for break in and went past the return date. I never got over the fatigue and ended up selling them. Was able to listen to Audio Note e/lx and problem solved. I don’t blame Zu, since I know they make a good product. I think I have sensitive ears is all. Don’t make the same mistake I did and hope they work out. Try to break in and if they don’t get significantly better, return. No shame. 

You need to treat your room. Absorbers for high frequency 

preferrably behind them.  Will help a ton

good luck

One possibility. If these new speakers are 2-3db higher in sensitivity you may be playing them louder than the Kefs not realizing you need to lower the volume. Louder than normal levels can make mids and vocals a bit sharp or harsh.

Happened to me once. Upgraded speakers. Was testing them out on familiar music, but not remembering that I should have reduced the volume about 35% due to 3db increase in sensitivity. Once I realized this and lowered the volume I was very pleased with the sound which had sounded occasionally bright or sharp when I had the volume too high. 

I felt the same with the Klipsch RP 600M.  Sold them to someone else.