So how best to deploy available funds. Better to spend on a high end preamp or outstanding power amp? This assumes you already have high end stuff elsewhere in system.
I think you're sorta asking the wrong question, so I will spin it differently. For sound quality impact it's best to find an amp that has the best synergy with your speakers - so I'd focus squarely on the amp over the preamp but not just any outstanding amp but the one that allows music to flow the best from YOUR speakers. This may not have anything to do with spending the most you can afford....it's about finding synergy. My speakers sound best from a tube SET topology with a bit of wattage headroom. I could have spent 3X on a higher end push-pull amp and it wouldn't sound anywhere close as good as what I have.
what good does it do to get a good amp if you are going to put a crappy preamp ahead of it ?
And you can easily make the counterargument that a great preamp doesn't help if your amp is a total mismatch with your speakers. If we go with the assumption that amp-speaker matching has already been optimized then I'd agree that the preamp will be a bigger gain.
“And you can easily make the counterargument that a great preamp doesn’t help if your amp is a total mismatch with your speakers”
if the amp is a mismatch, then you already had issues. you can’t make chicken soup out of chicken crap, so best start with a good preamp and upgrade things down the line when funds are there.
In building custom audio components I have mixed input about this. IMO unless your speakers require a specific power amp (horn speakers don't need 200wpc, as an example), then here is my overall comments: They both offer sonic advantages - in building a Class A hybrid power amp, I thought that it was the better of the two options. In making a few design changes to our high end tube preamp, I am not sure what I would consider having over the other. Putting a gun to my head, I would probably at this time look for the best power amplifier since the amp works and sounds so good with other preamps we have tested it with. Our preamp does add beauty, soundstage dimension, and clarity in direct comparison to other preamps we have compared it to with the amplifier though.
Happy Listening - you are probably more confused now!
OK, so the upshot of all this is a balanced approach. It's counterproductive to split your funds, say, 20/80, favoring either component. Evidently, both can have a major impact on sound. Pre-amps can often cost a little less than power amps, particularly if the latter are expensive, so I wouldn't exceed a 40/60 split, if you're looking for a rule of thumb.
Pre-amp is the heart of your audio systems all the devices are connected to it except the Power Amp. If the Pre-amp is highly transparent the other pieces tend to fall into position better.
highly recommend the MP-1 from Atma-Sphere if you can cut it if not the fully Loaded MP-3 is superb.
Equal. However, most modern amps have enough gain that they can be driven by the source components (assuming decently sensitive speakers), so a good amp only needs a passive preamp with quality input switching and volume control. So start with a good amp.
Yes, everything gets connected to the preamp but all signals eventually make their way to the speakers. The speakers are the heart of the system and have the greatest influence, especially if they’re decently efficient.
The acceptable phrase is silk purse out of a sows ear. Either way its bollocks. A better preamp will be a better preamp and an improvement regardless. Speaker amp problems are speaker problems. Trying to solve the problem of a hard to drive speaker with an amp is a fool's errand.
People asking about separates while pretending to care about cost always make me smile. If you really do care about the cost/performance ratio, in other words value, the answer is almost always an integrated. With integrateds like the Raven Reflection you have to go pretty far up the high end food chain to be looking at separates- and then you're talking $50k not the (relatively) measly $11k the integrated costs.
But the audio community has guys so spellbound buying ever more stuff, and separates do help you buy a lot more stuff. You can get mono-blocks, bi-amp, and lots and lots of power cords and interconnects.
op is a bit confusing, if everything else is high end then both pre and power should be of same pedigree. If funds are a limiting factor then get a better integrated amp that drives your speakers well. Consider speakers and power amp as one voice, so if your speakers are demanding (not only power hungry) you need the suitable poweramp, if not, then go for the better preamp. G
Speaker amp problems are speaker problems. Trying to solve the problem of a hard to drive speaker with an amp is a fool’s errand.
That is nonsense and plain naive. There is more to sound than whether there are "problems" associated with easy or hard to drive. Perhaps MC has never experienced wonderful amp/speaker synergy before. It’s not all about the speaker being hard or easy to drive, it’s about how beautiful is the sound that can be created. Just because a speaker can be driven easily doesn’t mean it’s going to sound good or even the same with amps of similar specs. Why on earth would my speakers sound better with a relatively low powered SET amp than a SS amp with three times the power and with the ability to double down into loads of half the impedance?
I don’t think MC has ever heard the lucid and textured midrange produced by some 300B/speaker pairings while other single-ended triodes will produce more clarity and beauty, and yet others will be richer harmonically if not as incisively quick. All with similar specs and all being paired with an "easy to drive" speaker. MC apparently subscribes to the camp that if a speaker is designed to push more power of out amp, creating louder sounds, then it must be better and will work best in all applications. If volume is all you require from your speaker then your listening priorities are light years away from mine, not to mention grossly unrefined. Perhaps when I was 13 yrs old I would have agreed with you.
As usual, some are answering questions that were not asked, and some are making assumptions. However, the question as asked may be too open ended to properly address without more detail.
It sounds like the OP is saying that the system is already of good caliber all around. In that case, a better pre or amp would really offer limited improvements, generally speaking. If one of those were long in the tooth, or lacked a feature or connection option one wanted, that might tip the scale, as it were.
I am in agreement with @tvad. I would like to point out that it’s easier to get a flat impedance curve with lower impedance speakers, and that due to that lower impedance those speakers will most likely (speakers like tvad’s Soundlabs excepted) be less sensitive.
The amplifier is far more important than the preamp even if it has a phono stage. Amplifiers and how they are matched to the loudspeakers can make or break a system. See what happens when you put an 8 watt SET amp with Wilson's. Some speakers require a lot of power. Without it they are lifeless. Makes no difference what preamp you are using.
Sounds like a hypothetical question to induce responses. If the OP was serious, he'd simply consider an integrated amplifier within his remaining budget. Would you put an entry-level cartridge on a high-end turntable? Which is more important when all things are important?
Speaker and amp tech may not change so often as the preamp/streamer/DAC So my view is nail those down first. Make sure you can return whatever you get. Happy hunting.
If you match a top level preamp with a lower level amp, you will reveal all the weak points of the amp. If you match a top level amp with a lower level preamp, you will never hear the top performance of your amp. So I agree they are equally important because the whole point of high end audio is trying to eliminate the weakest link.
If I didn't know better and only read some of these posts, I'd think all I had to do was get easy to drive speakers and piece things together from there. Good lord.
Everyone is missing the point here. How many excellent preamplifiers are in existence vs. excellent amplifiers? The point is that it is extremely difficult to find superb preamplifiers which will make your system sound better, and they are plenty of good to excellent amplifiers to be found. That’s why my vote goes for the preamplifier.
Depends on what future plans are. If you put more into one than the other do you plan to upgrade the lesser soon. If this is going to be more long term setup i would say get an amp and pre-amp that match well. If you get one higher quality than the other then you will not get the most of the higher end component.
I have upgraded my system in stages and each step was a noticeable improvement. I did the upgrades based on a goal and took advantage of sale items of demo equipment. I upgraded from a purely analog system in several stages: 1. Bluesound Node 2i. Adding digital streaming to a purely analog system. 2. Added a preamp with a phono stage and DAC and used my integrated amp as an amplifier. 3. Then I bought a stand alone amp 4. Then I bought a new standalone DAC. 5. Then I upgraded the speakers 6. Then I upgraded the turntable
if I did it all at once - I would consider an integrated amp. There are many good ones available. I don’t know if you listen to vinyl, CDs, streaming or a combination of sources. Trust your ears and determine if your system is a journey or destination. And good luck
I chased this power pre perfection and was never really happy Had an ATC P1 recommended stereophile had tron and croft valve pre and harbeth speakers... Good but something missing.
Eventually got my speakers sorted.. Tannoy which matched with what I loved and then Luxman class A integrated and perfect synergy....
Maybe if u had time and a lot more money it could be improved... But I just want to enjoy the music.
I upgraded in stages as well and I think I have a good dialed in synergistic system. I would like your opinions. Bob Latino st-120 amp, Vincent sa-T7 pre, music hall cd/dac, bluesound node 2i, thorens td 125 w/Hana eh. Bob Crites cornscala speakers with wireworld oasis 8 speaker cables and interconnects. Furman power conditioner. I think it’s a modestly priced system that punches way above its weight class. I figure I’ve got about $10K invested all together.
I have a tube preamp and amp that works well with my speakers. They have good tubes.
I have a good integrated solid state amp that works well with my speakers.
Here’s the comparison I did. Keeping the DAC and the source the same:
(a) SS-Tube. When I run the solid state integrated as a preamp only through the tube amp, it sounds ok.
(b) Tube-SS. When I run the tube preamp through the integrated’s amp section only it sounds much better.
So, in my particular setup (only!) I can conclude that the preamp makes the bigger difference.
My tube and solid state are at similar price points. I realize that my tastes, impedance matching, etc. could be factors here, but I do hear a clear difference. Preamp more important in my setup.
hilde45 Interesting observation and something i dont have difficulty to figure out....
If i upgrade my audio system i will buy a Berning ZOTL tube amplifier that can also work like a pre amplifier with my Sansui AU 7700 which can work like a separable or like an integrate power and/ or pre-amp....(Sansui Au 7700 is one of the more flexible amp ever designed )
For this reason : tube for pre amp and S.S. for power amplification...
I feel no urge because the pre-amp section of the Sansui Au 7700 is already very good... For sure the Berning ZOTL would be better tough....
I am generally in agreement with the line of reasoning advanced by threeeasypayments. But you need to decide what you are trying to accomplish.
Are you trying to make a change that will give you an incremental improvement in sound quality? Or are you ultimately wanting to achieve a top tier listening experience?
If it is the former, then replacing the weakest link, if you can determine with certainty what that is, can accomplish that. If you go that way, don't buy anything your can't resell or return with minimal loss. If the later, then the following comment needs to be the foundation of your thinking.
I believe the whole point is to optimize the synergy among your components & room to best connect you to the music and stir your soul.
If you want to get from good to great, it is a long hard road, but that road has to start with selecting a high quality speaker that is capable of functioning well in your room and setting up that speaker in the room to minimize contribution of the room's acoustical properties to what you hear at your main listening position. If you don't get that right, nothing else you do is going to make a huge difference, and you will never get from good to great. Believe me, I know. I spent decades chasing better sound through random equipment swaps.
Four years ago I had a room full of great gear (and it wasn't cheap, by the way) that sounded like crap. Now, having changed only one component, I've got outstanding performance. Better than half of the improvement was due to optimizing speaker and listening position, utilizing standard room treatments to address low frequency ringing, and addressing floor vibration and isolating equipment from the floor. All of that work, with the exception of dealing with the floor, was relatively inexpensive. It's value proposition was off the charts.
In your scenario, one could also conclude the integrated’s solid state amplifier section makes the bigger difference (by matching your speakers more optimally)...since your system sounds better when the speaker’s are driven by the integrated’s solid state amp.
I should add that the all-tube combo beats the tube-SS combo. Does that affect your point, above?
@tvad Thanks -- yes, I think you're right to point out that I'm probably not doing a fair quality-level comparison (between QS and Atoll). That Pass Labs would really be the test. (And it's cold in Denver lately, so it's heat would be a bonus!)
I believe the whole point is to optimize the synergy among your components & room to best connect you to the music and stir your soul.
Bingo!
A synergistic system that stirs the emotions is the ultimate goal. This can and often does result from very unusual combinations. You cannot simply throw money at the problem either. So when I see someone is using $1K speakers with $10K amplification, and vice versa, I no longer assume he/she is a noob.
The amp and preamp are both just as important as the other. If I spend 7K on a preamp, then I will spend 7K on an amp and probably by the same manufacturer. Synergy is everything.
Assuming the rest of the system makes sense, I'd usually suggest a better preamp, having heard and done way too many demonstrations of how a better preamp is generally preferable to a better power amp.
Again, assuming the system makes sense in the first place.
As Harry Bosch always says "Every amp matters or no amp matters". Best solution? No preamp!! Spend the whole wad on the new Merrill GAN monoblocks! Merry Holidays!
Of course, it goes without saying that the amp will lend it's own voice to the mix, but let's face it, mostly what it is doing is working with what is fed to it. I'll give you a real life scenario. I recently completed a major overhaul of my system. My Klipsch Cornwall III's were fine, so they stayed. I bought a new Bob Carver Crimson 275 amp, and replaced my Vincent SV-237MK hybrid integrated amp with a Vincent SA-T7 tube pre amp even though I could have used the MK as a pre amp. Long story short, I didn't like the way it sounded. I put the MK back in the mix and got the sound I was looking for back. Both Vincent's are stellar pieces of equipment, and the 237MK is an excellent integrated amp. Where the difference came in was that the 237MK has a loudness switch, something that I use 90% of the time. So, in my particular setup, and with my preferences in sound, the pre amp made all the difference in the world. Component set ups can be tricky because each piece brings it's own contribution to the party. Getting everyone to play nice together is a juggling act, but it can be quite rewarding when you get everything right. The down side is that it can be an expensive experiment to conduct. IMHO, the best way to approach it is to stick with a single manufacturer and chose pieces that were designed to be together.
Given budgets are not unlimited, I would split the difference and get a good pre-amp/ amp pair and gleen the benefits of better in both components. Getting the right match of the two can be better than one great component and one marginal component. IMHO.
Curious, no comments about interconnecting cables. The quality of coaxial or balanced cables of good quality may make a diff? Just saw $11k speaker cables, seems remarkable.
great comments herein. Soo many really smart souls. Tough keeping components within the same family, but may be of great value. My gear family is diverse. I think it will be fine. Need to learn more about impedance.
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