So how best to deploy available funds. Better to spend on a high end preamp or outstanding power amp? This assumes you already have high end stuff elsewhere in system.
Thats why all my stuff is from the same manufacturer
Yawn.
Tubed or solid state. A great tubed pre- is going to be expensive, but you can pair it with a relatively inexpensive ss power amp and get amazing results.
+10
Matching amps and speakers with sensitivity, power ratings, current drivability, etc., guarantees nothing.
As a SoundLab A1 owner for 15 years now, and now with the latest back plates, I have been through many trials with amps to ultimately find magic with these speakers. The CAT amps have been the end of the road for me here, but these are crazy expensive. And I was looking for cooler amps to run during the summer months. Fortunately, I discovered a few surprises with other much more affordable amps.
Yes, these speakers mate well with some tube amps out there, but the 70wpc VAC 70/70 never had a chance here, and this was a huge disappointment. It makes me wonder if the highly praised 140 monos would have any chance to bring these speakers alive. But the Atma Sphere MA 1 and old Wolcott monos make these speakers sing. No doubt the VTL and Manley amps do as well. But all of these tube amps get into high price ranges. The older Counterpoint SA series are a wonderful match here, and quite affordable. But the discovery of the century for me was Symphonic Line amps.
Several years ago I found the bottom amp model in the SL Line, the RG-11, at an insanely low price that I felt I had nothing to lose. Unfortunately it sat in my HT setup for a couple years until I had the curiosity to try it on the A1's. I had mediocre sound quality with current Odyssey and Belles models, and older Threshold amps, on the A1s. These amps were able to drive the speakers but the sound was, well, boring. I threw the RG-11 into the system. I had little experience here but the result was overwhelmingly positive. It all made sense immediately from what I remembered an A'gon member had told me years ago: go try the SL product line. Well, better late than never. The RG-11 did not take the A1's to the same SPL as the other amps, but what this amp could deliver to the A1's, was truly beautiful. The purchase of this amp is hands down the greatest deal I ever made in all my audio purchases in just under 40 years.
I wanted more of the RG-11 magic so I jumped at a rebuilt RG-1 and that is even more refined with greater clarity and detail than the RG-11. And the greater SPLs with the RG-1 bring the speakers another step in the direction with the CAT amps. Oh to hear the bigger SL Kraft amps.
So why do I share the above details? Because I know that with some hard work and patience, I can find some pretty darn good amps, and even more impressive amps, at not such budget breaking prices to mate with any speaker. But this is not at all the case with line stages. From my experiences with trying a ton of preamps and line stages over the years, the quickest way to destroy the 3D capabilities of my system was to throw in just about every line stage out there. One after another has been quickly rejected because of this. Only a few had any chance of survival and then it could be a tough choice as to which way to go.
As insane as it sounds, if I had to choose between keeping the CAT amps and being forced to hand over my preamp/line stage and run with any one of 90% of the highly praised line stages out there, OR, keep my preamp and run with the RG-11 amp, the latter choice would be an easy choice. Again, contrary to all the preamp models praised out there, only a handful truly cut the mustard.
So @emergingsoul, go find a not-so expensive amp that can comfortably run your speakers to the SPL that you like, with decent sound quality. And then put all of your focus on your preamp quest. Try everyone you can get your hands on. But first find one with a tube rectified power supply. This will be your reference. I guarantee that you will reject preamp model after model after hearing this. Once you find a model that knocks your socks off, and is within your budget, you can return to refining the amp......or.....the speakers. Oh, and one more thing here: the interconnect from preamp to amp is uber critical! Do not skimp of some cheapo pair of ICs here, or you will never hear what I am writing about. If you would like some ideas here, you can send me a message.
On my system, I get more sound difference from power amps than preamps. My power amps - Plinius SA102, Audio Research 150M.2, Jungson JA99C. My pre amps - Plinius M16-P, PrimaLuna Dialogue Primium, Jungson JA1. On my most recent upgrade path, I decided to upgrade Plinius SA102. Anyway, your system will be always bound to the weakest link. The power amp and the preamp should be comparable.
I have a small 30w A class tube pse amp with matching preamp (same manufacturer) and speakers that do not drop bellow 7.9ohm. Same 'small' tubes in amp (12ax 7) and in preamp. The impact on sound is much more felt with choice of tubes (same small ones) in amp than in preamp. I believe that without any doubt everyone should first choose the matching amp for their speakers (as best as they can find) and than repeat the same with preamp. Of course, there is plenty of room for mistake(or improvment) in either case. I do not believe that you can have one 'bad' piece of equipment (cables incuded) and hope that somehow you will 'straight' everything up with another 'good or better' piece, no mattter how that part might be 'good'. Also, regardles of some belifs that you can use source instead of preamp my experience is that any system will benefit with good preamp (had Burmester 001 and DCS Puccini with clock and both played 'better' with good preamps, Burmester 011 and Arc Ref 3) but that, of course, costs more
Tubed or solid state. A great tubed pre- is going to be expensive, but you can pair it with a relatively inexpensive ss power amp and get amazing results.
If you're going ss, then the world is your oyster. I think you can find good ss pre's for not too much money. An example would be the Wyred4Sound STP pre new or a used Tom Evans Vibe/Pulse (my current pre which I've got mated to a relatively inexpensive tube amp) And then you can find great ss or tubed amps for not too much $.
I had an EAR 834 mated to a First Watt J2 and it was one of the better combos I've had. My best combo was the Vibe/Pulse and a Berning 300B Siegfried. The biggest regret of my audiophile career was selling my Siegfried to a good friend. One of the few pieces I've had that actually appreciated in value.
Preamp gets the nod, as regardless of the amp the sound quality can be no better than what the preamp feeds it.
Yes, a high sound quality amp can sound better with the same preamp, however, that is a result of the the lower sound quality amp NOT achieving the sound quality feed to it from the preamp.
Cost wise, a match of preamp & amp sound quality will result in the best sound quality for the BUCK.
@jaulbrich -- Your post made me laugh because it was such a compact and insightful compendium of (to modify the old jazz standard title) "All the Things We Are." I also laughed because there is this constant forgetting about what the hobby is about (in other words, that it can be about so *many* things, none superior to the others). And none of us think or say, "Someone who knows about main courses really knows about 'food' but a baker or a wine maker doesn't." No, we say, they *all* know about food. So, there is something weird that happens (sometimes) in this hobby when people want to collapse the different purposes at work into a single end, and then argue about that end.
Sometimes I wonder if when audiophiles physically gather if they speak to each other the way they do on these posts? There are many different flavors of audiophiles: the self exclaimed expert, the I have to have the best audiophile, the reasonable approach audiophile, the newbie, the tubest, the if you have Class D...you are only mid-fi audiophile, the pure dick-head audiophile, the I am an engineer and testing matters more than listening audiophile, the rich guy audiophile who says if you were only willing to mortgage your house to buy those speakers you you would be happier audiophile and the ever present old stuff and vinyl is the only way audiophile:-). Ok, so be it, but lets not speak down our noses to each other. I have had many different systems. Some were "mid-fi" and some "hi-fi." I have enjoyed them all in their own time. Let's leave it at that...
They are so much different tubes amplifiers , they are so much S.S. amplifiers also...
They are so much different pre amp and different power amp....
How can one may devise a solution or a choice applicable to all?
In audio all these debates and wars about tube/ S.S. or digital/vinyl, power amp/pre-amp, are meaningless because there is not one choice applicable to all...
In audio tough there is a rule universally applicable:
We must learn how to control and treat any audio system mechanically, electrically and acoustically...
This is the key for the creation of real audio experience....Any other solution which pretend to be the best solution for all ,is only fetichism, habits, marketting conditioning, tastes, money throwing, ignorance.... Sorry....
Happy new year for all of us....A better year will be great....😊
Emergingsoul, I want to to tell you before you eventually get indoctrinated here and lose your common sense, I agree with you on the use of tubes and their application..
Thanks @co93 I’ve been thinking about picking up a used SIT-3 as I work at home all day and listen to music. I realize I’ve been putting just a ton of mileage on the tubes in my SET tube amp in 2020 and perhaps drawing more power than justifiable throughout the day when it’s mainly background music.
Regardless of the price point, it’s all about balance. Like anything else, it’s all about the weakest link. So strive to have all the links (relatively speaking) the same strength. Its also about minimal returns. For a mid-price system, A+ cables don’t make sense. And I’ve found that regardless of specs (and the risk of overanalyzing specs), having an amp that matches up (sonically) with the speakers need to be objective #1, then an electronic match between a preamp that has the features you like with the amp is objective #2. Then let your ears decide past that. I have a ARC ref 5 pre-amp on one system that is a match in heaven with my Ref 75s3 amp, but I would never match it up with a First Watt SIT-3 I have in another system...
maybe an integrated system where preamp is blended with the amp serves to achieve something of value in light of all the various components presumably matched a lot better. So maybe this is a case why separates may not be a good idea.
The human equivalent of a dog chasing its tail. No one wins.
Before this year, I would have argued about an amp being first. That was before my intro to Lexicon. I picked up a MC-8 V2. The Rotel went into deep storage. I’ve never heard a sweeter, more beautiful sounding preamp. And the L7 modes are jaw dropping. I’ve always been a purest two channel guy but with my all JBL surround system (L100t, L1 with twin Harmon 740 subs), it’s absolutely beautiful.
INMH; The destruction of the preamp sound is far worse from the transformer of an amp, than is the miniscule interference from the preamp. A good amp can sound no better than its preamp, but a bigd amp can mask a preamp's deficiencies with enough volume, at least for the general audio public.
The week link in any system will ruin the entire thing.
Yes but be patient, it can only take so much and so at 2 weeks the link breaks.
Take a $50,000.00 system and feed it low quality source and it will sound like a big awful system.
Actually it will sound like a big awful recording. A friend who is really into the Rolling Stones loaned me a whole bunch of their CDs. Until then I always thought Springsteen was the king of great music crap recording but no, its Mick.
A truly awesome system has the ability to recreate a whole new world. Its not the system's job to sound awesome. Its the system's job to sound like whatever world is on the recording. Whether it be a magnificent concert hall, a magnificent recording studio, or a magnificent 1968 Ford pickup. Don't know why anyone would want that, but there it was. In all its glory. 6x9 coax. Green vinyl dash. With a crack in it.
In my personal opinion, a preamp works like a music conductor. I have both Aesthetix Eclipse and Atma-sphere MP-1. Both are excellent preamp but have totally different presentation of the music. It's like listening to Bernstein or Karajan in comparison.
A little story of my progress through Hi-Fi land...
When I was a kid in the early 1960’s my family had a mono Columbia "HiFi Console." It had a 12 inch woofer, midrange and electrostatic tweeter! A 10 watt mono amp and a record changer. It was very state of the art in 1958 when my father bought it. I would rate its HiFi grade around 80 points. It had real bass and could fill a room with wonderful mono sound.
One day my dad replaced the original record changer (and its ceramic cartridges) with a Dual 1215 turntable with a Sure M91. He also added a small booster amp to bring the M91 output level up to the correct voltage. It was an unbelievable change! Like washing the windows in an old house. I will never forget he put on Simon and Garfunkel playing Scarborough Fair/Canticle. That was my first taste of what an upgrade could do. I would rate that around 90 points.
I have been an audiophile for 55 years if you assume I started with that record player when I was 6 years old. I have worked in the industry in numerous capacities and was even the weekend manager for the AR listening room in Grand Central Station from 1973 to 1976 when it closed.
I owned and or touched lots of equipment over the years. I built and sold super high end systems for many years before moving to the computer software business.
I know this has been said many times before - The week link in any system will ruin the entire thing. Take a $50,000.00 system and feed it low quality source and it will sound like a big awful system.
Assuming you have fantastic source material, I would think the power amp would be more important than the pre-amp. Think about it, how often have you ever seen a pre-amp clip?
I have owned many pre-amps in my days. I have only been able to "hear" the difference in pre-amps on the most fabulous systems. The differences were very "subtle."
Curious, no comments about interconnecting cables. The quality of coaxial or balanced cables of good quality may make a diff? Just saw $11k speaker cables, seems remarkable.
great comments herein. Soo many really smart souls. Tough keeping components within the same family, but may be of great value. My gear family is diverse. I think it will be fine. Need to learn more about impedance.
Given budgets are not unlimited, I would split the difference and get a good pre-amp/ amp pair and gleen the benefits of better in both components. Getting the right match of the two can be better than one great component and one marginal component. IMHO.
Of course, it goes without saying that the amp will lend it's own voice to the mix, but let's face it, mostly what it is doing is working with what is fed to it. I'll give you a real life scenario. I recently completed a major overhaul of my system. My Klipsch Cornwall III's were fine, so they stayed. I bought a new Bob Carver Crimson 275 amp, and replaced my Vincent SV-237MK hybrid integrated amp with a Vincent SA-T7 tube pre amp even though I could have used the MK as a pre amp. Long story short, I didn't like the way it sounded. I put the MK back in the mix and got the sound I was looking for back. Both Vincent's are stellar pieces of equipment, and the 237MK is an excellent integrated amp. Where the difference came in was that the 237MK has a loudness switch, something that I use 90% of the time. So, in my particular setup, and with my preferences in sound, the pre amp made all the difference in the world. Component set ups can be tricky because each piece brings it's own contribution to the party. Getting everyone to play nice together is a juggling act, but it can be quite rewarding when you get everything right. The down side is that it can be an expensive experiment to conduct. IMHO, the best way to approach it is to stick with a single manufacturer and chose pieces that were designed to be together.
As Harry Bosch always says "Every amp matters or no amp matters". Best solution? No preamp!! Spend the whole wad on the new Merrill GAN monoblocks! Merry Holidays!
Assuming the rest of the system makes sense, I'd usually suggest a better preamp, having heard and done way too many demonstrations of how a better preamp is generally preferable to a better power amp.
Again, assuming the system makes sense in the first place.
The amp and preamp are both just as important as the other. If I spend 7K on a preamp, then I will spend 7K on an amp and probably by the same manufacturer. Synergy is everything.
I believe the whole point is to optimize the synergy among your components & room to best connect you to the music and stir your soul.
Bingo!
A synergistic system that stirs the emotions is the ultimate goal. This can and often does result from very unusual combinations. You cannot simply throw money at the problem either. So when I see someone is using $1K speakers with $10K amplification, and vice versa, I no longer assume he/she is a noob.
@tvad Thanks -- yes, I think you're right to point out that I'm probably not doing a fair quality-level comparison (between QS and Atoll). That Pass Labs would really be the test. (And it's cold in Denver lately, so it's heat would be a bonus!)
In your scenario, one could also conclude the integrated’s solid state amplifier section makes the bigger difference (by matching your speakers more optimally)...since your system sounds better when the speaker’s are driven by the integrated’s solid state amp.
I should add that the all-tube combo beats the tube-SS combo. Does that affect your point, above?
I am generally in agreement with the line of reasoning advanced by threeeasypayments. But you need to decide what you are trying to accomplish.
Are you trying to make a change that will give you an incremental improvement in sound quality? Or are you ultimately wanting to achieve a top tier listening experience?
If it is the former, then replacing the weakest link, if you can determine with certainty what that is, can accomplish that. If you go that way, don't buy anything your can't resell or return with minimal loss. If the later, then the following comment needs to be the foundation of your thinking.
I believe the whole point is to optimize the synergy among your components & room to best connect you to the music and stir your soul.
If you want to get from good to great, it is a long hard road, but that road has to start with selecting a high quality speaker that is capable of functioning well in your room and setting up that speaker in the room to minimize contribution of the room's acoustical properties to what you hear at your main listening position. If you don't get that right, nothing else you do is going to make a huge difference, and you will never get from good to great. Believe me, I know. I spent decades chasing better sound through random equipment swaps.
Four years ago I had a room full of great gear (and it wasn't cheap, by the way) that sounded like crap. Now, having changed only one component, I've got outstanding performance. Better than half of the improvement was due to optimizing speaker and listening position, utilizing standard room treatments to address low frequency ringing, and addressing floor vibration and isolating equipment from the floor. All of that work, with the exception of dealing with the floor, was relatively inexpensive. It's value proposition was off the charts.
hilde45 Interesting observation and something i dont have difficulty to figure out....
If i upgrade my audio system i will buy a Berning ZOTL tube amplifier that can also work like a pre amplifier with my Sansui AU 7700 which can work like a separable or like an integrate power and/ or pre-amp....(Sansui Au 7700 is one of the more flexible amp ever designed )
For this reason : tube for pre amp and S.S. for power amplification...
I feel no urge because the pre-amp section of the Sansui Au 7700 is already very good... For sure the Berning ZOTL would be better tough....
I have a tube preamp and amp that works well with my speakers. They have good tubes.
I have a good integrated solid state amp that works well with my speakers.
Here’s the comparison I did. Keeping the DAC and the source the same:
(a) SS-Tube. When I run the solid state integrated as a preamp only through the tube amp, it sounds ok.
(b) Tube-SS. When I run the tube preamp through the integrated’s amp section only it sounds much better.
So, in my particular setup (only!) I can conclude that the preamp makes the bigger difference.
My tube and solid state are at similar price points. I realize that my tastes, impedance matching, etc. could be factors here, but I do hear a clear difference. Preamp more important in my setup.
I upgraded in stages as well and I think I have a good dialed in synergistic system. I would like your opinions. Bob Latino st-120 amp, Vincent sa-T7 pre, music hall cd/dac, bluesound node 2i, thorens td 125 w/Hana eh. Bob Crites cornscala speakers with wireworld oasis 8 speaker cables and interconnects. Furman power conditioner. I think it’s a modestly priced system that punches way above its weight class. I figure I’ve got about $10K invested all together.
I chased this power pre perfection and was never really happy Had an ATC P1 recommended stereophile had tron and croft valve pre and harbeth speakers... Good but something missing.
Eventually got my speakers sorted.. Tannoy which matched with what I loved and then Luxman class A integrated and perfect synergy....
Maybe if u had time and a lot more money it could be improved... But I just want to enjoy the music.
I have upgraded my system in stages and each step was a noticeable improvement. I did the upgrades based on a goal and took advantage of sale items of demo equipment. I upgraded from a purely analog system in several stages: 1. Bluesound Node 2i. Adding digital streaming to a purely analog system. 2. Added a preamp with a phono stage and DAC and used my integrated amp as an amplifier. 3. Then I bought a stand alone amp 4. Then I bought a new standalone DAC. 5. Then I upgraded the speakers 6. Then I upgraded the turntable
if I did it all at once - I would consider an integrated amp. There are many good ones available. I don’t know if you listen to vinyl, CDs, streaming or a combination of sources. Trust your ears and determine if your system is a journey or destination. And good luck
Depends on what future plans are. If you put more into one than the other do you plan to upgrade the lesser soon. If this is going to be more long term setup i would say get an amp and pre-amp that match well. If you get one higher quality than the other then you will not get the most of the higher end component.
Everyone is missing the point here. How many excellent preamplifiers are in existence vs. excellent amplifiers? The point is that it is extremely difficult to find superb preamplifiers which will make your system sound better, and they are plenty of good to excellent amplifiers to be found. That’s why my vote goes for the preamplifier.
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