Room correction room system vs ears….

Oh, to add….

my system consists of…

Benchmark AHB2 amp

Benchmark DAC 3 HGC

Bluesound Node music streamer

Totem “The One” bookshelf speakers

Velodyne SPL 1000 sub

 

“So, I splashed out and spent more than I wanted”

@thomasintrouble

If there are no acoustic treatments in your listening space then definitely try room correction software to fine tune the sound.

I am with Floyd Toole here.  The best thing about room correction and EQ in general is helping to integrate the bass.

You could try something like this from DSpeaker on the cheap and if it doesn’t help just sell it…

https://www.ebay.com/itm/115566748237

Here's a though -- perhaps invest in a room measurement microphone ($100 give or take) and some free room measurement software for your PC (Room EQ Wizard) and see what the frequency response in your room is right now before doing anything.  Next, experiment with some free or inexpensive room treatments to see how that affects things, along with trying different speaker placements. You may find that works out just fine.  There are also analog EQ options available (Schiit Loki and its siblings, starting at $150) that may fix a minor problem after you treat the room.  Only then may you still want to spend the bucks for a digital room correction system. 

Mini DSP Studio SHD is one idea.

Thanks guys , I’m about to start room treatment when I get back, heavy long curtains, bass traps, plenty of soft furnishings etc. what I’m gathering so far is over $1000 on a correction system is not necessary if I complete the treatment. I know that will tame the bass to a great extent but I thought the idea of a room correction system is that it does a lot of math and everything is fixed “before” it leaves the speakers - is that right?

Haye to spend $1000 only to hear very little difference.

Oh, heading to the airport soon and 30 hours of travel, so I’m not ignoring you guys , I’ll check here once I settle in.

cheers

@thomastrouble , dsp is limited in what it can fix. IMO getting a flat frequency response in your room is more important than your components. So, as for room treatment it should be done regardless if you use dsp or not. As for dsp it is to help customize your in room response once it is treated. I posted a video below if you want to get more info before you get started. Or, you can get a free consultation from a vendor like Auralex of www.sonitususa.com. If you check the virtual system in my profile I have posted my in room measurements. As for software and mic the Dspeaker or miniDSP Flex will both probably work and I think the upgrade you will get when you achieve a flat frequency response will be outstanding. This video is about an hour but these are the principles I followed to achieve a flat frequency response and Anthony even exchanged e-mails with me:

 

 

The smart money says treat the room first and then do room correction if still needed.  I’d recommend GIK for reasonably-priced room treatments and good advice as well.  As far as effectiveness of RC, read reviews of the DSpeaker Anti-Mode 8033 and/or the 2.0 Dual Core to get an idea of what’s possible. 

I wouldn't say DSP would NEVER be necessary, but I do think room treatment is the first thing to go, and then any remaining issues can be dealt with quite handily with a little EQ on the sub. :)

Yes, room treatment is essential I know. I’m living in Brazil now so the prices for this I’ll have to find there - pretty easy though from pro audio stores for re riding setups. Going to get that right first then if I’m not quite happy I will look deeper into room correction systems.

 

thanks guys

remember to watch the video before you buy anything

Will do Kota!

The biggest factor in maximizing the SQ is getting the speakers in the sweet spot for the listening positions. And some dampening on parallel surfaces.

If you are limited for doing that DSP is a bandaid that might help.

Might not.

+ many, regarding room treatment.

But, try to be as sparing as possible. You can overdo it easily.

With regard to DSP, I would be circumspect.

Remember, when you mess with information stream, you can end up with more unintended changes that you did not intend.

Bob

A lot of good advice has been offered so far. One additional point: automatic DSP systems are powerful but don’t always come up with the result you will like best. (I use an Anthem STR Preamp with Anthem’s ARC to help smooth bass response in my basement room.) If you choose an automatic DSP system, try to pick one that will let you change or fine-tune its solution. That is far preferable to one that does not.

Well, I lied. A second point: DSP is one of the few practical ways of smoothing really low bass, which is below the frequency range in which most common acoustic traps and panels are effective.

Like most things it depends. With the right speakers and calibration software I've gotten a  flat FR from 30hz to 20khz with no special room treatments. Genelec 8351b using GLM and Dutch and Dutch 8c using their boundary settings and REW. I'd like to see what Kii3 can do, maybe someday. Anyway in your case I'd get a calibrated mic and REW since you're doing stereo. That can help with placing treatments. 

Room correction may make the sound better to your ears or it may not.  

One issue is the target frequency response curve it is trying to achieve may not be to your preferences.  

Another issue is that it will most likely try to fill in the valleys in bass response by boosting the frequencies.  Boosting bass frequencies can quickly rob an amplifier of dynamic power and cause early strain and clipping.  

I personally do not use it and if I did I would use it to eliminate peaks.  However proper speaker and sub positioning can do that quite well.  

Thanks guys , I’m about to start room treatment when I get back, heavy long curtains, bass traps, plenty of soft furnishings etc. what I’m gathering so far is over $1000 on a correction system is not necessary if I complete the treatment. I know that will tame the bass to a great extent but I thought the idea of a room correction system is that it does a lot of math and everything is fixed “before” it leaves the speakers - is that right?

Haye to spend $1000 only to hear very little difference.

I am not sure.

• Some passive treatments usually provide dampening of the sound after it is in the room.
  • One may want to dampen things out more where there are problem.
  • or diffuse things.
• Active approaches (EQ) gets the sound energy into the room at a more consistent level initially.

It is not clear that passive is better than active or visa versa.
A combination is more likely ideal.

And if passive is not an option for a variety of reasons, then active does make a difference.

I would think one might want to start with the microphone and measurements, rather than pillows, rugs, curtains and traps.

I had the DAC3HGC with the AHB2 once so I know the way it sounds. I now have the LA4 preamp and the DAC3B.

I use this system in my 12 x 11 x 9 office. So that is a small space but I have my closet filled with my desk and 6 monitors hooked up to 1 computer. Sounds like a recipe for bad sound.

However, I made the room sound great by calling GIK Accoustics and they helped me setup acoustic panels to tame the room. That is all I use now with my KEF LS50 Meta + KC62 sub. However, when I had a bigger speaker in the small space, a Thiel CS3.7 I also used DSP via convolution filters running on ROON. I do not need any audio hardware to run this DSP. I used a cheap computer running ROON in a room far away from the office.

If you are getting fatigue from the sound then look at your room. Acoustic panels could be all you need, but they are intrusive into the space. I did not care in my office. If the panels cannot be used in your circumstances or they are not enough then DSP will solve the rest.

Using the panels or DSP is always better than getting fatigue in a room that is not playing nice.

Something interesting on room accoustics

 

While I’m at it, I might as well include the latest measurements of my room / system. As always, these are collected using Audiolense and the help of @mitchco from Accurate Sound, who designs my 65,000 tap, frequency and time corrected, convolution filters. This isn’t your father’s DSP, to say the least.

Mitch also did the DSP for my office. That dude is a star at this and can do anyones room remotely.

 

Splish, splash you're taking a bath!

Might as well jump in with both feet

and buy the Professor's system as demo'ed

at Axpona in Janszen's room. Only $23k

as I recall. Tiny sweetspot. But yes jaw dropping!

Or buy a TigerFox enclosure for $500!!

Some DSP in a room beats none, even in a 'meh' room....I count on it, as ears can lie to one's mind, whereas a mic and software don't care about prefs....ho, as usual.

 

Take a look at the Sumiko Master Set speaker positioning method you might find it helpful. Good luck !

I am with those recommending to treat the room 1st.  I made my own panels using rockwool 60 in 2x4' sheets 2" thick framed with 1x2" pine and covered with fine burlap fabric.. To start I would place them at the 1st reflection points on side walls, behind speakers and behind the listening chair if the back wall is close. 

Play with speaker placement within the room as is and then make adjustments after treating room.

Keep in mind that one is tuning the room for one's own hearing.  

Use the money saved to purchase a outboard DAC for your node. 

Good luck in this endeavor. 

Home Audio Fidelity or HAF will create convolution filters for Roon based on measurements you take. Results are remarkable. Customer service is top notch.

I also agree to try room treatments first.  Experiment with them in different places.  To me, room correction is taking away your true sound and replacing it with something manufactured, I.e. fake.

Minimal 'Inexpensive' Room correction via room treatments is quite doable. There should be little to NO excuse Not to try some things, On the other hand I just got DiracLive and though I have a poor experience wiht NAD T748 and it's early version of room correction, the DiracLive did marvelous things to my sound experience. Don't forget Speaker placement. A couple of inches in any direction and in their placement change everything, If you move you speakers remember that you will have to Retest your DiracLive or they will just be a constant sore spot, Possibly even destroying your sound experience.

Don't spend any money upfront, first hang some rockwool (Home Depot, Lowe's, etc.) on the walls and see if that works for you. If it does, then to make it attractive you will know how much to spend and what to spend it on. Have fun!

I have been using digital signal processing since 1995. It works incredibly well for subwoofer crossovers, full range room control and speaker balance but it has it's limitations. Doing this right requires the right room with all early reflection sites dampened depending on the type of speaker used. You do not want the frequency response drifting more than 5 dB up or down or you will run out of amplifier power correcting the troughs and drop resolution dropping the peaks. Newer processors like the Trinnov Amethyst and the DEQX Pre 4 and Pre 8 are so fast that running out of resolution is no longer a problem at any volume. These units measure, with there own calibrated mics, the frequency response, timing and phase of each individual speaker and subwoofer. They then flatten the frequency response curve, and correct group delays so the the sound from each speaker gets to the listening position at exactly the same time and in phase. Some of then will then overlay a desired target curve. I then measure the main loudspeakers with an independent calibrated mic and make any adjustment needed to get their frequency response within a dB of each other from 100 Hz to 12 kHz. The result is spectacular imaging which is the first characteristic that other audiophile notice. 

Physical Room Treatments +1

Electronic Room Correction is a band-aid. It just covers up the problems and is Not a Permanent Solution.

OK, some good advice here. All rooms need treatment, it is paramount for good sound. EQ/DSP may help after getting the room sorted out. The problem with room correction electronics is they can't reduce the overly long decay of sound in an untreated room, how can they? They also can do nothing about the full nulls created when low frequencies recombine out of phase. It does not matter how much power you pump into the speakers the sound will just cancel with the same power.  Partial nulls can be boosted but if you try and correct for example a 15dB dip you will not have enough power. It requires a doubling of power to achieve a 3dB boost. Try doubling your amp's power 5 times!

When sound is left to decay naturally in a small space (the average room) detail is obscured by the confused and smeared sound. So determine the required time it takes for your sound to decay by 60dB across the full spectrum, known as RT60 or T60. The average room needs T60 to be about 300 to 400ms.

The thing to do is download a great free program REW and measure your room. You will need to buy an inexpensive mic. for the job. This can provide a CSD plot of your room showing the peaks and nulls. Yes, you will need bass traps. REW can help you best position your speakers and show the effect subs have on the performance. Multi -subs can and should be used to smooth out the bass response. The optimum would be to treat the room in combination with 2 or 3 subs and you will get to hear, probably for the first time, the music info that has been 'black-holed' by the nulls. Some who have heard of multi-subs envisage thunderous bass but properly placed and dialed in they enhance the entire spectrum from top to bottom. Think of them as tuning units.

WARNING: place a cushion between your feet in case your Jaw hits the floor 😁

I'm constantly amazed by before and after demonstrations at audio shows. I've since made it a point to always follow those demonstrations with a visit to an LP source analog demo where my shoulders never fail to drop and relax. Eyes rolling?

On the other hand it was suggested to use an Altec equalizer with my Octavium sub while dodging the draft and have been equalizing and optimizing subs ever since. 

@lemonhaze : great post! And spot on.

 

Those who think they can fix their room with some Roon EQ and able to get "perfectly flat frequency response" are just fooling themselves. 

@lemonhaze

OK, some good advice here. All rooms need treatment, it is paramount for good sound. EQ/DSP may help after getting the room sorted out. The problem with room correction electronics is they can’t reduce the overly long decay of sound in an untreated room, how can they? They also can do nothing about the full nulls created when low frequencies recombine out of phase. It does not matter how much power you pump into the speakers the sound will just cancel with the same power. Partial nulls can be boosted but if you try and correct for example a 15dB dip you will not have enough power. It requires a doubling of power to achieve a 3dB boost. Try doubling your amp’s power 5 times!

That’s what Krell is for: you too can break your speakers.

When sound is left to decay naturally in a small space (the average room) detail is obscured by the confused and smeared sound. So determine the required time it takes for your sound to decay by 60dB across the full spectrum, known as RT60 or T60. The average room needs T60 to be about 300 to 400ms.

RT60 (and T60) is somewhat ambiguously named. The 60 dB decay thing is the original Sabine equation. T60/T30/T20 are methods of measuring the decay time (they all return the same result, the lower numbers just extrapolate from a smaller drop in level).

Typically mixing rooms have a lower decay envelope and preference for a listening room will depend on music preference. I like electronic and studio-assembled stuff so I’ve no use for added warmth or envelopment from longer decay times (which benefit classical, for example) so my room is closer to a mix room, around 200 ms. Regardless of preference you also want consistent decay across the frequency spectrum (there’ll be an increase in the lowest octaves).

The thing to do is download a great free program REW and measure your room. You will need to buy an inexpensive mic. for the job. This can provide a CSD plot of your room showing the peaks and nulls. Yes, you will need bass traps. REW can help you best position your speakers and show the effect subs have on the performance.

Smaller rooms (most people’s listening rooms) complicate things a bit as decay to a uniform diffuse field doesn’t happen and RT60 isn’t super-accurate, so listen and judge accordingly. REW has a new method for smaller rooms, so try that.

Multi -subs can and should be used to smooth out the bass response. The optimum would be to treat the room in combination with 2 or 3 subs and you will get to hear, probably for the first time, the music info that has been ’black-holed’ by the nulls. Some who have heard of multi-subs envisage thunderous bass but properly placed and dialed in they enhance the entire spectrum from top to bottom. Think of them as tuning units.

WARNING: place a cushion between your feet in case your Jaw hits the floor 😁

Careful positioning of full-range stereo speakers to minimise nulls followed by judicious EQ to tame peaks at the listening position will often work (or it does for me, in an open timber house but will depend on your room characteristics, so quite different in a concrete apartment block) and yes the difference is dramatic. I don’t need bass traps specifically (approximation of reverb time rises to ~400 ms in the 31 Hz band which is still fine) but I need to reduce a 15 dB peak at 50 Hz (from the room’s second longitudinal mode) at the listening position. Subs give bass extension for limited-range speakers of course, and two or more subs can be located to give more even bass response over a wider listening area. Setup is more complex in that case.

One of the best articles describing small room acoustics in reasonably simple terms is this one, covering decay and the different frequency ranges (specular, transition and modal) to consider when setting up gear and a room.

No preamp? Dac straight to amp I’m guessing? 

@mesch I am with those recommending to treat the room 1st.  I made my own panels using rockwool 60 in 2x4' sheets 2" thick framed with 1x2" pine and covered with fine burlap fabric.. To start I would place them at the 1st reflection points on side walls, behind speakers and behind the listening chair if the back wall is close. another 1+ regarding room treatment and locating speakers in the room before buying DSP or whatever.

+1 with Mesch regarding building your room treatments on your own. Much less expensive and you build just what is needed for your individual hearing. 

+1 on working on speaker location. Never had a perfect room that fit with a golden triangle, etc. You can google this stuff and it is just a place to start. Would recommend checking out Zu Audio speaker placement. They have a slightly different approach and I thought it helped me. Right now, one of my speakers is within two feet of the side and front walls. The other speaker is further out in the room and actually closer to my listening position. The sound is balanced with a wide soundstage. Small tweaks until it is "perfect". 

Thanks for listening

Dsper 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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=+

I've used digital room correction for years, first as a plug-in to Foobar2000, and now with Minidsp's Dirac Live box. I rent and am a fixed-income. The former means I deal with rooms that are sub-optimal, acoustically. The latter restricts how much I can spend. The Dirac Live box corrects both frequency and time domains, and for my application, it's well worth it.

The weakest link in most stereos I've heard has been the room. I'd do room correction before I upgraded anything else, but budgets and rooms vary, so YMMV.

The goal in room treatment should be a reflected flat response. Yes, absorb the bass but don't also absorb the high frequencies. Just disperse them so they can't ring. I really like racks of LPs as my main treatment. Bookshelves can also help.

In my custom listening room, I have built in bass traps.  I end with a live room, treated on walls, ceilings and floors with absorptive materials.  Trying the same on front and rear walls decimated the dynamics and high frequencies.  I chose to use Synergistic HFT system throughout the room which are rather inconspicuous and tame the high frequencies in front and rear adequately by dispersing them.  So no ringing and a delayed response from hard wood reflective surfaces.  

If you use Roon (if not I advise you to..) you can just make a REW measurement and then manually plug the proposed REW filters into the Roon EQ soft ware. From there add your own adjustments after careful listening. 

I have not used it yet, but I have a Mini DSP Studio SHD which is a DSP unit using Dirac Live, it is placed between digital front ends and the DAC. I have already got a large amount of room treatments and bass absorbers I made myself in the room. I've been waiting for my pre amp to get back and now that I have it I will try it out when I get back home from Florida for the holiday season in Nov/Dec.

Keep your wall treatments 4" suspended from the wall.  Often overlooked. 

@kellyp , I use spacers on the absorption panels of my back wall (about 2") and it helped. On my side walls the spacers sucked out too much and found no spacer worked better. I have carpeting and cushy furniture which absorb on their own, other rooms would likely be different.

@fthompson251 +1

@fleschler I look forward to more pics and if you have time the FR graphs. Would be very interesting to see before and after FR curves with the HFT system.

@kota1 My room is treated much like yours, no spacers on multiple side wall absorption panels, very thick carpet and couch.  The ceiling absorption panels are chain suspended about 6".  I'm still looking for that 2019 video of my finished empty room.

@fleschler , it is funny how we seem to have followed similar principles but you have the "custom" version with a purpose built room. Those absorption panels hanging from the ceiling are often called a "cloud" in the studios. I have an acoustic "cloud" of diffusors (auralex acoustic lens) hanging below my PJ in the back third of the room. I don't have a pic but this gives you an idea. This pic is NOT my room, its a studio. These are the panels I use but  this gives you an idea:

 

@fleschler , this diagram illustrates how I placed my acoustic panels (note the ceiling, absorption in front and diffusors behind the MLP:

@kota1 Interesting that you don’t appear to have any panels behind the speakers.  Can I ask why?