No risk except your DAC catching fire! Fuses are there to protect your components. Why would you do such a stupid thing bypassing fuses?
Question about suitable fuse metals
I've been wanting to experiment with audiophile fuses for a while but the cost and the concern of blowing one of these costly fuses has kept me from purchasing. However, I read that solid slugs actually sound better than fuses and cost WAY less, so I purchased a 6" rod of 99.99 copper and, because I wasn't really thinking, also purchased another 6" rod of titanium. I guess I was thinking of rhodium, palladium, or platinum, not titanium. I had these cut down to 20mm and, so far have tried them in my amp, a Red Dragon S500, and my DAC, the Bel Canto 2.8, which I run direct without a preamp. The titanium slug sounds pretty darn good in the DAC, noticeably better than the copper. I tried one in the amp as well and that combo did not work well at all. The amp is doing better with the copper slug. I looked up the electrical conductivity of titanium and found it is a rather poor conductor. Is there any risk to the DAC using the titanium slug, given the poor electrial conductivity? Thanks for any relevant input.
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I'm aware that bypassing the fuse could be asking for trouble and I'm willing to take that risk. In the last 30+ yrs of being an audiophile, I've blown only a couple fuses and those were in Chinese made tubed equipment (not a knock against Chi-Fi). Everything is plugged into a balanced powered conditioned which has a circuit breaker built in so probably not too much of a fire hazard. I don't leave the equipment on all the time nor unattended. I'm just wondering if using such a poor conductor as titanium could be a problem in itself. That's the question please. |
Use a non-contact digital infrared laser thermometer gun to check the temperature of the titanium slug while playing music for at least an hour. Put the case cover back on and continue playing music for an hour, then check the temperature again to make sure the reading is not higher than the previous reading. By the way, test your system with this video to see how your system performs, it will also tell you how good your hearing is.😉 |
What fuse holder are you using that lets you substitute a 6" solid slug? At this point the only thing it sounds like you are doing is tweaking the voltage across the DAC. You’d be safer / better off with a variable voltage supply, but seriously we are deep in the flat earth / Mad Mike Hughes territory of experimentation. Get yourself a safer hobby, like making headphone cables.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Hughes_(daredevil)
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I'd say wait for a sale and bite the bullet for some Synergistic Research fuses... I thought they would be a bunch of BS but holy smokes they are awesome... I started with one Orange in my amp just to see if it was worth it, not to long until I did the other two in my amp, then one in my DAC but a purple this time, and another purple in my Aurender streamer.. Not sure what snake oil crap is in them but they really really add smoothness, warmth, analog sounding... I think VH audio has sales like 2 for 1 sometimes
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This is probably one of the dumbest posts I have seen on these pages...and there have been some dumb ones. Audiophile fuses are one of the biggest scams out there, and Synergistic Research is raking it in with their pseudo-scientific nonsense. But to carry it to the extreme and bypass fuses because you think it might "sound better" is utterly ridiculous. |
I wouldn’t do that, nor use fuses not recommended by he factory. But if you must, why not add a crowbar circuit just for insurance? Doesn’t have to be exotic: just a twisted pair of 20 AWG insulated wire with heat shrink to insulate each end. Connect one wire to the hot side of the AC inlet and one wire to the common side. Arrange the wire across the top of the chassis so that in event of fire the insulation melts and the two conductors meet and blow a breaker. Crude, but better than nothing. I use fuses, breakers, and crowbars. YMMV |
fpomposo: Yeah, I may go that route eventually, try one and compare to the slugs I have on hand currently. If the SR fuse isn't better than the slug(s), I could always turn around and re-sell. Thanks.
jhnnrrs: Why the venom? And would you please elucidate your experience(s) with audiophile fuses? You sound like an authority so surely you have extensive experience. Actually, I'm rather glad I did the ridiculous and experimented with the slugs in place of the stock fuses. I guess I'll continue my delusional behavior and enjoy the better sound I'm imaging I'm hearing. |
jasonbourne71: I'll look into silver slugs. Not too sure I want to splurge for a solid silver rod but I'll look into it. And the titanium actually sounds quite good. The subtle inner detail is easier to follow without any brightness. I know you think all this is snake oil but really, look at all the folks here who have EXPERIENCE with the likes of audiophile fuses, cables, plugs, outlets...... and swear by them. Do you really think we're all delusional? |
@jasonbourne71 I suppose next you're going to tell me not to put nickles behind blown fuses in my main panel? 😂 |
@lcherepkai Congrats on joining the sluggos. I use copper sluggs except in my tube pre where my QSA yellow sounds better for some reason. Kind of tames things down in a good way. I have nerver had a power plug fuse blow in my many years of stereo enjoyment. I have all the components on a power conditioner and don’t get lightning storms in my community. Also, everything is only powered up in my presence. I see it as very low risk and am willing to accept it. Copper sluggs really do sound much improved over expensive fuses. 🤞 |
@imhififan .... N.F.s' quote is my irrational as well...at least, tonight...this morning....Whenever....*sigh* Hard to tell under artificial lights..... 'Old fuses, burnt.....magnifying glass + old eyes unable to read the tiny imprints on the ends....' Well, mabbe this'll d... *POOF* damit.... ;) 😏 |
tksteingraber: Happy to be a fellow sluggo, thank you very much! Any chance you've heard slugs of any other material than copper? I was also considering chemically pure tungsten from McMaster Carr. I recall Bogdan Audio's Toto interconnect was made from tungsten and was favorably reviewed. Thanks for the response. |
Hifi tuning are a very good buy ,if your system is on the warm side get the supreme silver,gold , if neutral the solid Copper is very good for $89 ceramic body finesilica inside , gold over copper end amps and Cryo treatedseveral days . Synergistic purple use “less conductive Brass with a git of Graphene coating in their $200 purple fuses, the even have a White $600 fuse . they recommend 1-2 , No thanks , |
@mrskeptic - See we see these accounts trying to do things like replace their breaker panel with solid copper bars for best transmission, or use paper and bees wax insulated power cords then they go silent and we never hear from them again. I kind of wish their family would know to come tell us when their experiments have ended badly when they can’t. 🤣 |
I've been using the copper slug in a Red Dragon S-500 and a titanium slug in a Bel Canto DAC 2.8 for 4 days now, perhaps up to 6 hrs per day and the sound has really transformed. Initially, the sound with the slugs in place of the stock fuses was noticeably better but hard to quantify. Images had more body to them and the sound was a bit smoother but not by much and there was another quality I just could not quite apprehend.
Listening late last night and this evening I'm better able to determine what quality I've been hearing as it has become more clear to me now. My system, already quite detailed, isn't really any more resolving than with the stock fuses but, apparently the fuses smear the fine inner detail and, what I'm hearing now, is that detail clearly. A good example are the tabla or other small hand struck drums. I've heard them many times in selections from Dead Can Dance and it always sounded more like an oscillation than a series of very quick drum strikes. With the slugs in place, I could finally clearly hear each individual strike of the drum---CLEARLY.
Similarly, each sound was clearly defined in its own space with that always present smearing finally gone. I was listening to a lot of ambient last night from Steve Roach, O Yuki Conjugate, and Randy Grief and I could REALLY hear each individual sound in its precise location. It truly was like hearing this very familiar music re-recorded on a higher resolution format, like what I had been expecting when I bought into SACD and DVD-A but they had not quite delivered.
Thanks for all the recommendations. Safety would dictate I now invest in audiophile fuses and maybe I will and maybe I won't. I just can't imagine they will sound better than this without a BIG investment, if at all. And even then, does a $500-600 fuse in a $2000 amp make sense? As for those of you telling me I'm being ridiculous or stupid, c'est la vie . I bet my stereo sounds better than yours! |
Yes, the slugs were the cause of the very significant improvement in sound as that's the only variable that's changed and I've literally listened late at night THOUSANDS of times and I've not heard this precision of sound, in my systems, ever before. Try it yourself. Between the 2 rods acquired from Mcmaster Carr for around $20, 6" of 99.99 copper and titanium with shipping and $30 to have a machine shop cut them to 20mm lengths (of which I have 7 copper and 7 titanium), my total investment was close to $50. I would have gleefully paid 10x this much, much more if I could afford it for the kind of improvement I'm hearing. Of course, it's going to be highly dependent on whether your equipment is resolving enough to reveal this kind of detail. I doubt replacing the fuses in an A/V receiver with slug would do much of anything. |
I’m okay with bypassing the fuses in a audio system. But, I’d recommend the following: Install a heat sensor (standard security system hardware) above the system. Hook a 12v solenoid (plunger) to a power supply. Mount this adjacent to a wall-mounted fire extinguisher. Decorate to blend with existing motif in the room. So, when system is ablaze, the wax in the temp sensor melts causing the little spring to push the contact closed, activating the solenoid, that jams the plunger into the trigger on the the fire extinguisher, putting out the fire. Might be a little "collateral damage" but, hey, much cheaper than building a new home. Pretty basic engineering. Low cost. And, no fuse!! But, seriously, if we really want to get "tweaky" here, I’d take some very high quality power cable and jumper around the fuse hold completely and silver solder the connections to the board. This would bypass all inferior metal, and eliminate a contact/relay point in the circuit. CIrcuit breakers are preferred by many. We’ve substituted chassis mounted circuit breakers in place of fuse/holders in vintage gear with good results.
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I don't need homeowner's insurance (never had my house burn down before), don't need to screen for cancer (never died from cancer before); don't need to look both ways before crossing the street (close, but never been hit by a car while walking). WOW, there are plenty of things I don't need. Why put in slugs when you can cut out the fuse holder and straight wire the circuit? If something does happen, be sure to cover up the evidence so you don't lose your insurance coverage? Oh, I forgot, you don't have insurance (don't need it). |
You guys act like audio equipment is this huge household fire risk, that it could go up at any time with disasterous results. I've not see it before nor since I gave up my tubed equipment. I'm not saying it's 100% safe but, what is? And I can recall 2 times when there actually were fire risk situations at my residence and both involved appliances we all have and seldom pay much attention too. The power cord on an old lamp had become frayed and began to spark. I heard it from the other room and noticed a hint of a burning smell when investigating. Also had a fan motor go bad and it was beginning to burn. Were either of those appliances fused? No? Well, shouldn't they all be....according to you guys? I don't leave my audio system on when I'm not around unlike lights or fans so.... what to do? How to be safe? I think there is quite a bit overreacting to bypassing the fuses on a couple of audio components here but thanks for your concern (but the condemnation).
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These are not my words, but they ring true to me: "An AC line fuse on the primary side of the power transformer is not going to make any audible difference, since the AC will be stepped down, rectified and smoothed into DC, then regulated before it reaches any amplification circuitry." And if that's not convincing, let's ask the experts at ARS. Where all audiophiles turn for unbiased opinions (come on now, every now and then they get it right) " I do not say that any so called audiophile fuses are any better, I will say that if the fuse is not used directly in the audio circuit path, (ie it is used in the incoming mains ac power) it is highly unlikely to have any audible improvement for even the most golden of golden ears and I would place some money on those bets any day of the week." For what it's worth, I bought a high end fuse for my amp after reading about them on this very site. And the difference in sound was absolutely zero. The only sound I heard was my $150 flying out the window. My ears not golden enough? Maybe. There are just some things that defy logic, and this is one of them. If you are hearing a difference, then that's all that matters. Cheers. |
@lcherepkai 👍👍 agree…for me it was a poorly wired outlet with old crumbling insulation which started to smell, turn brown and popped a breaker. Wires/cords are most often the problem and should be inspected regularly. |
I am more concerned with damaged gear than the prospect of a catastrophic fire. While there is the possibility that different conductors in the fuse will change the sound, any such changes would most likely be adverse, as compared to no fuse at all; your first experiment should be to bypass the fuse holder entirely. |
The "magic" fuse (or insane elimination of same) efficacy myth stands to live on through the high end expectation bias fog as long as there are people who say thing like, "the new fuse let me see the facial expressions of the musicians." The fuse isn't in the signal path. Bigtwin is simply pointing out a reality. |
larryi : I'm certainly down with that possibility. How would I go about completely bypassing the fuse holder?
wolf_garcia: I'm not selling anything here. I don't stand to gain by convincing you or anyone else that replacing the stock fuses with sold copper or titanium slugs improved the sound. As you pointed out, "Bigtwin is simply pointing out a reality." Well, that's exactly what I've done. The reality is that by replacing the fuses with either copper or titanium slugs, I was able to hear more deeply into the sound and no, "the new fuse let me see the facial expressions of the musicians." did not occur. However, listening to track #10, Emmeleia, from Into the Labyrinth by Dead Can Dance, it was not only easy to hear the inhalations as the singers took in breath, I could also clearly hear the parting of their lips after they closed their mouths, probably the wetting of their lips. I've heard this in my system before but in a muted sort of way. This was rather clear to my ear. And this sort of insight occurred over and over again, listening to familiar discs. Now, I suppose it could be some sort of expectation bias, if one exists that actually improves my hearing :)
Bigtwin: I looked up your system and wow, that's a nice set up. Sorry the audiophile fuse didn't benefit your system at all. In my case though, I didn't try an audiophile fuse. I tried a solid piece of 99.99% pure copper. Maybe you should give that a try. |
The only fuse experimentations I've ever done are:
All that said, this thread has induced an interest in swapping the silver tubing on the Maggies with copper tubing to see what difference it might make in the sound. I expect there would be a discernible difference, perhaps adding some warmth? |
There is way to get the best of both worlds. The Swiss digital fuse box uses a variety of solid metal sluggos with a digital fuse box between the wall and device. This is a relatively new product, but to the best of my knowledge there have been zero problems. I have 3 in my system-Preamp and 2 mono block amplifiers. I have noticed a similir sonic improvement and feel reasonably secure that my equipment is protected. There is a money back guarantee if not happy with sonic improvements |
This question / statement was put forward on another site. The idea that replacing a fuse with solid metal, allowing unrestricted current which improves the sound, is based on a false premise because most transformer primary windings exhibit much higher resistance than the fuse? This statement appears to make sense, and yet people are claiming not just slight improvement, but really noticeable improvement. The company appears to be offering a generous return period. If it's a 100% refund, no questions asked, there's little risk in trying. As for having to buy additional cables, I would probably just buy two connectors and splice the box into my existing cables, if the product proved to be a keeper. Still not convinced but would be happy to read reports from members who have / do test the Swiss Fuse Box. |
@lcherepkai Yes, it does. Mark Schifter can supply a high quality 1 ft cord called a pigtail (or Piggy) which works well with set up. He also has a variety of high quality metal sluggos that clearly changes the audio presentation. I've tried all of them. Also, the swiss digital fuse box can be reused if it is tripped. Just unplug and plug back in. Last fuse you will ever need. And the sluggos are free. Green flashing diodes indicate when it's ready. Definitely improves the sound and its more than subtle. Mark is a gentleman to deal with as well. He is very transparent and knowledgable, having developed Equi core products. His email is verifiaudiollc@gmail.com. |
Good Evening
SDFB has "saved" several systems that I'm aware of (very safe and proven tech) |
If you open the amp, you will see that the fuse holder has two tabs where the wires are attached to the fuse holder. Simply de-solder or cut the wires at the tab and then connect up the two ends of the wire together (solder then insulate with electrician's tape or shrink wrapping. Even better would be to replace the wires that went to the fuse holder with a new wire that connects up the two destinations of the wires going to the fuse holder; this would mean no joint in the middle of the wire and no worry about insulating a joint. |
verafiaudio: that's definitely something to consider although I'm really not wanting to spend the money on the system at the moment and why the $50 bucks spent on 14 slugs seems like such an insane bargain. I'll keep the SDFB in mind. Thank you very much
larryi: I'm not much of a DIY guy myself but that may be something I can do. I also have a work buddy who builds his own equipment so... I will check into that. Thanks! |