emailists: Are you sure about Underwood Hi-Fi offering trial with their power conditioners? I had a conversation about this very matter with Walter and he claimed he has never offered free returns of anything he's sold, ever. I found that shocking and poor customer service, and bought my Core Technology balanced power conditioner elsewhere.
Also, just as an FYI, I have owned several Furmans, a $5000 River Springs Dmitri, the Core Tech 1800 and the AQ Niagara 1200. I kept the CT 1800 and the Niagara 1200. I have four dedicated power lines and both of these PCs made a difference, but not a huge one.
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One thing you might give a thought to is a true industrial grade UPS. I picked up a used Liebert GXT3 3kVA UPS for around $400 with new batteries. It completely isolates from outside AC by actively converting to battery and then regenerates the AC wave. (Caveat: manual says it has "pure sine wave" but I have never measured for noise, but this is nothing like the computer backup APC's.)
Of course, it takes a bit of work to put in place. I have some electrician experience and so hooked up a 30A circuit from the box to the UPS in my basement (no fan noise!) and then plugged in a PDU (power dist unit), a glorified power strip with dozens of 20A receptacles, from the room above, which is my listening room. Of course, if I relocated elsewhere in the house, I'd have to run a dedicated circuit from the UPS.
I get 2 benefits: backed up AC power (with batteries and normal load I get about an hour), and clean power with no spikes or brown out issues, I'm running a digital audio system with Small Green Computer pieces and KEF LS50's, and also run my laptop and monitors for safety.
It's been effective keeping the noise low and I'm isolated from spikes and outages, which are especially problematic for these digital systems.
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Providing your budget would help. So, not having a clue regarding your budget,
CorePower Deep Core
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This is what I use. Plugged into the wall. Furman RFI power strip with voltage cut off at 145v. Tripplight 1800W RF, spike voltage regulator isolation transformer plugged into the Furman. The furman will take the first hit and limit over voltage to 145v. The Tripplight regulates 85v to 145v to 120v. The power conditioner has event lights on front. I have seen it regulate low voltage and high voltage. Absolutely no change in sound quality. Normally it is apparent after a thunder storm showing an electrical drop. I highly recommend this combination. I run a rack with a primaluna integrated.
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@buddyboy1 I had read that the power quest was very similar tech to Niagara 1000/1200, and one Amazon review claimed they sounded the same. I was putting together a small system when away from home and picked up the power quest 3 and Audioquest entry level cable from Best Buy. I also found a deal on a used Furman reference 15, for not too much more than power quest. I found the Furman, though probably 10-15 years older to have much more effect. I should have returned the power quest, but kept it to plug my computer into. Maybe I’ll try it again as a filter for my home computer, which acts as my Jriver server.
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I have a PST-8 and a Green Wave dirty electricity filter. They work very well together. There is a video that demonstrates this on Youttube. They combo has made a dramatic difference in my system. The video also demonstrates that the PST-8D is not worth the extra $$. Erik_Squires’ posts were helpful and informative while making this decision.
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After getting the cheapest PS audio power regenerator the experience was jaw dropping in 3 seconds. So I have to disagree with Stuart k. It depends on the resolution of your equipment. Serpently filter all your digital and a computer equipment. I have the regenerator on my low level amplifiers that is preempts and such. The high power equipment received isolation transformer with very low inductance. That's about the cheapest way to get around it
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One aspect that dawned on me. Power conditioning on the cheap is like preamping or amping on the cheap… it may be a necessary step to get to where you want to be… but it is leaving sound quality on the table. Very appropriate step on the way to better sound.
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I had a Furman p15 - you can get one used for the best value. Upgraded to a Puritan 136 last year - I don't think it did much more because I am lucky that my power is delivered though underground wires and is clean and the stereo is on a dedicated circuit. The 136 is a cleaner design and the way it connects the cords is better and the power cord that comes with it is really good. You should have one for surge protection. Features are important - number of outlets, etc.
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What do you think of the Transparent Powerbank 6, I am resurrecting a vintage Marantz 3300 preamp and phase linear 400 to a pair of Sonus Faber 5s.
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Hi incorporeus ...welcome.
I have had terrific results in using an inexpensive, unassuming Panamax M4300-PM line conditioner in an extremely revealing 2 channel system, in a small (everything shows,) dedicated studio. I did a simple upgrade to a high end Furutech male AC connector plug from the wall to the hard-wired Panamax, benefiting the entire system.
Bon Chance! Think Positive, Test Negative More Peace, Pin
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While I value power conditioners for surge protection and lightning protection including such lightning protection for FM and TV antennas (to which I add lightning arresters where the cable enters the house) I am skeptical of their ability to do anything the amplifier and preamplifier ripple filters do not do better. With a good ripple filter such as a pi network with an indictor the components filter full wave rectified 60 Hz (typically by two diodes, sometimes vacuum tube, and a center-tap transformer winding output). Double that frequency and they are twice as effective because capacative reactance is inversely proportional to frequency and inductive reactance is proportional to frequency. At frequencies higher than auditable, say, 20 kHz, this factor is 500/6 for a reduced fraction of 20,000/120, the fundamental frequency of a Fourier series of full wave rectified 60 Hz. I admit at radio frequencies capacitance between inductor windings begin to occur, but vacuum tubes used in audio are not likely to amplify these frequencies. The 833A which a very few people use for the final stage of their SET has a cutoff frequency of 20 mHz and other audio tubes are likely to be similar because they are not designed for VHF. And if RF passes through the inductor in the power supply ripple filter, it is certain to be shorted out in the output transformer windings of the amplifier.
Therefore I am not surprised if you hear no change from an expensive power conditioner. Still, I see no harm if they do not add to the price and if they add shorting effect to unusually high voltage spikes.
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On the cheap you can get a nice Topaz, Xentek, ECA, MGE, Daitron, Elgar, etc. extreme/ultra isolation transformer, then just pop a nice passive power strip or two into the duplex. You can get a 0.005 pF 120v 1 KvA Topaz model on eBay fright now for a little over $200, but it needs a good cleaning (I'd use 91% or higher isopropyl alcohol or De-Oxit), which may mean a new duplex as cleaning in there can be a son of a gun. Just something extra to consider.
These Ultra/Extreme isolation transformers massively reduce noise, more than power conditioners and regenerators and such that cost over $10,000. There's a large thread about them on HeadFi, and the original poster measured common mode noise attenuation of over 150 dB at a pretty wide frequency range (up to roughly 9 kHz, 140 dB up to over 1MHz and transverse/normal mode mode attenuation of up to 65 dB) on a common model (not even one of the super low pF models).
Make sure you get one with voltage in and out that's compatible with your house and equipment (120v, 240v or one that can do both). I accidentally bought one about 6 years ago that didn't have the voltages listed and in my then naivete tried to make it work but it was 240-250v only.
These units weigh 40-60 pounds though and are shielded like a tank, so be careful.
From what I can recall Xentek and Elgar have models with the lowest listed capacitance out of all of them (0.00001 pF models exist), but they are super rare to see. Topaz has some slightly more common models at 0.0005 pF. ECA doesn't list their capacitance, but it's under the Extreme nomenclature that Xentek uses (most of these transformers use the Ultra naming). The nice thing about ECA's is that is comes (at least my two have) with balanced wiring on the output duplex and has a capacitor wired into the duplex as well (the capacitor on the transformer that I added a new outlet to was a 7uF 250v 50-60Hz polypropelyene film capacitor from Aerovox). I actually want to see if I could add an even nicer capacitor to it but my capacitor knowlege is limited so I don't know what to replace it with aside from one with the same rating and 7uF capacitors are rare today.
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I’ll add APC (H15) to your list for consideration.
I got mine used. It’s a long story, suffices to say it save my previous pre/pro at a rental w/“ISSUEs” even a dedicated 20A wasn’t enough.
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Furman makes a lot of units at different price points. The key features that step them up from just a couple of MOV’s in a box:
If they don't have this you are right, they are really basic.
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FWIW, I’ve tried and researched a number of solutions... even opening them up (or looking at photos of various internals) to see what they’re made of. I don’t have any insane demands from a home theater perspective, Marantz pre-pro, Rotel amp, phono stage, turntable, BD player, sub, and Martin Logans. The APC H10 (which I have used with past incarnations of my home theater) has been an absolute champ. For a shade over $200, it’s feels like an absolute steal. I’ve cracked open alternatives in a similar (and sometimes considerably higher) price range and laughed at the wool companies like Furman are pulling over people’s eyes thanks in part to the fancy chassis and LED displays. One Furman unit I bought (and subsequently returned) was costlier than this particular APC and the chassis was barren and the contents looked like little more than a budget surge strip inside. The H10 may not be much of a looker on the outside, but it’s got it where it counts. https://www.apc.com/shop/us/en/products/APC-AV-1kVA-H-Type-Power-Conditioner-120V/P-H10
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@lanx0003
"the cost might not be as affordable as you think...If extensive work is needed to run wires in your home, the project could cost as much as a few thousand dollars."
I agree, everyone's situation is different. I was fortunate to have commissioned the house construction so I was able to predetermine power distribution and other factors. Having a basement helps with wire routing and upgrades also. Some people can only resort to aftermarket products to improve their power so we all do the best we can. Other than surge protection, it seems many of these products only "clean up" electrical noise if there is a problem to begin with. So many factors can affect that and I am fortunate to live in an area with underground electric lines and to have dedicated lines and really no power noise issues whatsoever. I was not this fortunate at all of my former living arrangements. I currently use an Isoclean 60A3 II Power Conditioner on my front end components and nothing on my amps and preamp - all run from dedicated 20A lines and it works/sounds great. I am not sure how much benefit the Isoclean provides (if any) but it doesn't seem to hurt and it gives me 6 outlets to run my digital gear from.
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Last year I went through a search for a small size power conditioner for my computer and digital audio setup. The lower level Furman's were okay, but they only had 3 outlets on the rear (6 plugs). Also, the Furman has a single filter design. I looked at the Audioquest products, but rejected them because of the silver-plated components. I ended up getting a PS Audio Dectet. Review and teardown here:
https://www.audioaficionado.org/showthread.php?t=19276
It has 5 outlets (10 plugs) and actually three separate filters for three high current A/C zones. It's more like a large power strip similar to the Audioquest, but does not use silver-plated components (if you are critical about that). And it uses better outlets than the Furman. Can use any high current power cord for A/C input. Retail is now $750, but you can sometimes find these used for less. The PS Audio Dectet worked out great for my scenario.
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@mitch2 Damn good idea but the cost might not be as affordable as you think. Running dedicated power line depends on several factors such as electrical needs, distance and whether or not you need to cut into drywall to run new wiring. If extensive work is needed to run wires in your home, the project could cost as much as a few thousand dollars.
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At $171.00 the Furman PST 8
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Holographic Open Soundstage and purify the music for only $200. It's awsome in my 12K system....better than my 600 dollar PS Audio conditioner...What is it ....AudioQuest POWER QUEST 2...6 outlets with 3 Linear power outlets and 2 Hi Gain outlets...No Sacrificial surge protection 7 ft ac cable Unlimited Joule protection. The best $200 I ever spent . Forget all those overpriced units. This one is just as good and you can save a bundle. Audio Advisor. Try it for 30 days.
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Although I don't have a dedicated 20 amp spur I agree with the posts above that is a solid investment. I've witnessed before and after results. That being said I've had a whole house surge protector for 15 + years. It has never tripped during any storms or power outages. I personally don’t like any filtration between my A/C outlets and my gear. I also don’t like fuses, switches, lights, capasitors etc. anything that gets in the way of the incoming A/C. I’ve used the Naim Wiremold power strip for 20 + years. 9 quality outlets, captive cord. Why captive? Because some high dollar power conditioning units use a $5. cheap EC connections that does more harm than good. Captive also means no breaks in the A/C connection > direction > Wire to wire. The Wiremold is Star Grounded sharing only one common ground. All outlets are tied to the main incoming power line. Non current limiting and all aluminum construction. Now they come Cryogenicly Treated as well.
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Brick wall audio in PA.is a or was a B rating in Stereophile
8 outlets on top plus surge protection for around $300 is a great deal
the New Shunyata Vernom 3 for $800 another excellent buy.
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@incorporeus, as you well know, having clean power running through your mains is critical to getting the best sound out of any hifi system. To that end I use an AudioQuest Niagara 1200 power conditioner in conjunction with an AQ Thunder power cable in my dedicated headphone setup. The Niagara takes inputs from three LPSU’s, my hp amplifier, an iFi iPower DC power supply for my network switch, and from my CAT6 router. I chose AudioQuest because my audio dealer of over 40yrs is a big retailer of AQ products, and also because he gives me a very generous discount. When there is no music playing between tracks, or even within a recording, the background is absolutely pitch black. As the designer of power equipment at AudioQuest, and formerly at Furman, Garth Powell explains that power cables and conditioners do not add anything to the SQ of any system. All they do is take things away. If I had known how critical clean power was when I started my audio journey I definitely would’ve spent even more money.
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carlsbad
I only meant, if you suspected your service was bad, low, high, spikes of voltage, you could find out by watching the meter, it shows voltage fluctuations in real time.
my 2 controllers for my sump pumps also monitor and show voltage in real time. I already knew from them that my voltage is very consistent 121-122v.
weirdness will not be revealed, but will be filtered and kept on the incoming side, not the outgoing side, of the capacitors.
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Im with the farmer......if you get a conditioner be sure you can return it.
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I find that most power conditioners do good and bad things. Dedicated powerline s on the same leg of the breaker box wire the same length
and furutech plugs only do good things nothing bad. Cannot say that with any power conditioner I have been around. Get the basics right to begin with no need to patch a problem that you can fix.
Regards
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Yet another vote for the Puritan 156. I had an Audioquest Niagara 3000, and the 156 is better
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If you want something basic that is nice looking and will act as a surge protector there are used Monster Power Conditioners (i.e. 5100 Signature) that are available on eBay. I run three of these (one in a different system) plus a vintage Tice Power Block III Signature from the 90's. As far as I can hear, the Monster units don't change the sound (neither does the Tice) but they make a convenient spot to plug in my components and they protect my gear. One cool feature is that they have a large LED display that shows the voltage in real time. You can see your voltage change throughout the day and especially if your system is loading it down.
Regarding hospital grade outlets, I had the opportunity to talk with Caelin Gabriel (Shunyata) at AXPONA a few years ago. I asked him about outlets and he said not to use "hospital grade" outlets because they have stainless contacts that are designed to resist corrosion from the cleaning chemicals in a hospital. They are not designed for optimum power transfer. He recommended Hubble outlets and said that they are just about as good as Shunyata's own outlet for less money. I replaced my outlets (I've got two dedicated 20 amp circuits for my system) with Hubbles but I couldn't hear a difference. But like Amir said, it makes me feel better.
The last point I'll make is that you may be a prime candidate for having an electrician come out and examine your electrical system. It sounds like your house is pretty old and it must have been rewired at some point, maybe decades ago. Besides issues like corroded or poorly installed grounding, old electrical systems were designed before the proliferation of electrical gadgets. If you decide to run a dedicated 20 amp circuit to your listening room and then you buy an electric car you could bump into the limits of your service.
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Puritan PSM156 or 136 at a lower price point. 156 is more robust. Can be mounted vertically with special feet. The Puritan mains cable supplied is also very good.
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I use shunyata defenders throughout my house and the small Audioquest Niagara 1000 on one of my spare systems. All of them I’ve picked up used here on Audiogon and eBay. All work great and I saved a lot of money.
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Forgot two details about the Furman Elite 15i:
- Detachable IEC power cable
- Hospital grade outlets
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I have a dedicated line plus dedicated ground and a digital voltmeter always on. I am so glad that as an audiophile I can do away from this power conditioning issue even so many would jump here and tell me I could still use some :)
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’new found better quality power’
Better ISOLATED, i.e. nothing that cycles on/off to disturb the line, is NOT better QUALITY.
Problems prevented, a worthy goal, will NOT make better sound.
"I am personally a fan of the Garth Powell units (Furman and Audioquest) that have storage in the unit for more power than the line can deliver for transients."
Exactly why I chose my Furman P-1800
The capacitors store and send the juice. It’s like filling a baby bottle, the equipment is the little suckers. Except juice is constantly filling the bottle. The juice can be cloudy, that’s why there are filters.
Doesn’t make it sound better, just problem free, IF you had a problem, which ... most of us do not have.
Thus, don't need to over-do it.
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The Furman PST-8, for the money, is very good. You mentioned the PST-8D, be advised that that model is dedicated to digital sources only. I’m not certain if you are aware, Garth Powell is the designer of the Furman PST-8. He used to work at Furman. He is the same guy that designed the Audioquest Niagara 1000 and 1200, as well as the more expensive models.
I will agree that it is advisable to run a dedicated circuit to your hifi. It can be done cheaply (if you are proficient in electrical work) by running a 12/2 romex (yellow) from a 20 amp breaker to a high quality receptacle (audioquest Edison for example). Then you will also need to buy some high quality power chords to take full advantage of your new found better quality power.
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From your text it sounds you already decided you want to buy a Power Conditioner. My questions is ... is there something wrong / missing with your current sound that pointed you in this direction as being the solution?
It could be that maybe if you change another component, or improve room acoustics, experiment with speaker placement or port (if they have them) tuning, improvements can be made that have more impact for the same or less investment than adding a power conditioner, which will probably only make a subtle audible difference, if any at all.
Since you say you have this budget cap, other solutions could be more money efficient. But of course the high tech looks and ’estheatics’ of a power conditioner added to your rig may give a nice feeling and may be worth something too.
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The top grade furutech power outlet. Then after that furutech top with of the line AC and IEC ends on your power cords. Start at the wall one set and keep going until you decide it's time to relax for awhile to pl
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I think the question of gauge depends on what you are doing. My guys ran 4 gauge from the output of a very large isolation transformer to a secondary panel adjacent to the listening room, and from there, ran 10 gauge from the panel to the outlets, which are 20 amp hospital grade Hubbells- made to spec for Albert Porter (and no longer available, bargain that they were). I think it is less about audiophile "approved" than good practices. The guy I alway call on is @Jea48. Simply for his practical knowledge of Code +.
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Regarding wire gauge, the gauge should be paired with amps. Your electrician will know. If your wire is already at 14 gauge for 15amps, and if you want to save some money and stick to that wire. Or you can upgrade to 20amps if you think you are getting electronics that need to run on 20amps. https://www.familyhandyman.com/list/cable-and-wire-basics/#:~:text=The%20most%20common%20sizes%20you,%2Dgauge%20and%2012%2Dgauge.
Also, think about changing the outlet to a hospital-grade/studier outlet. Or splurge for an extra $30 for one of these.
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Thanks for all the responses. I'll take it all into consideration. Since more than one of you has mentioned installing a dedicated line I was wondering what something like that typically costs. I live in three story old Victorian just outside of Boston where the electrical panel is in the basement and my listening room is on the third floor. It is however, directly above the electrical panel so it should be a pretty strait shot between the two. Also what gauge wire should I use 12, 10, 8? Thanks again.
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Before you start talking about what equipment you can buy, find a really serious electrician (where are you, geographically?) who can "audit" your electrical set up. I spent money on power, but made sure the basics, starting at the service entrance, were in order.
Mr. Fremer did a video about the noise from his Generac (Mike?) which turned out to be a combination of long standing electrical problems, starting with corroded contacts where the meter plugged in.
In my estimation, it’s all an expensive bandaid until you address the basic delivery of power to your house, building and system.
See what you have and deal with the problems there first; the rest should come easy. I did not stint (this isn’t about saving money, but it may be that you need very little to "condition"). With "conditioning" or black boxes, I’m always afraid of baby with bathwater. To me, before spending money on conditioners and black boxes, it make sense to assure you are getting the best results from the power provided to you. A lot of residences and commercial spaces have terrible power that can be corrected by good practices. That’s where I’d start.
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If you guys could only experience the PI Audio UberBuss with a Power Factor Correction of 1 plugged into a 30A dedicated line, you’d know what power conditioners were really capable of.
And I speak from experience.
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As Eric mentioned the Furman units are surge protectors first and top notch. I think the idea of “conditioning power” is dubious. However, keeping voltage as constant as possible along with surge protection is a smart thing. I need surge protection like Eric, in CO, t-storms can be monsters. Very real deal. This year I’m installing a whole house surge protector and dedicated line. For now I too use a Shunyata Hydra 6 for my amps and front end along with the Furman PTS-6 for digital, TV etc. they haven’t failed me yet. The new Viper block looks like a winner IMO. I like Shunyata gear, it has served me well overall on the power side of things. I’m considering an upgrade of my block to a unit that can do all my system as one… not sure what that will be just yet.
I think the most important question you need to ask yourself is how robust of a surge protection unit you need. If your needs are minimal then I think about any decent block would get you where you want to be.
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@mitch2 yeah, when you know what’s actually in the box you have to giggle
varistors change sound in a way some may find appealing, but squash dynamics big time. The outlets are very high quality and probably do offset their impact to a certain extent, but I would remove them in a heartbeat..
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I also agree with @mitch2.
And that a dedicated ground can't be overlooked, if available.
Objective? Here you go, from Audio Science Review, a deep look into power regenerators.
Personally? I just use a nice TL line conditioner that has a protection circuit built in.
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Brick Wall offers a couple of power conditioners/protection. I can’t say about the improvement in sound, because I am just using one for my computer.
To my liking are the old BPT power isolation transformers, which were rated high over the need for current in many systems. The one that I bought many years ago had 6 secondary windings electrostatic shields for each winding, and also produced balanced power in the output. Each secondary is rated at 10 amps, but the primary is also rated for 10 amps, so that must be taken into consideration.
Got to admit to using Richard Gray products in the past but think that more than one needs to be considered.
A close second in my experience is an old PS Audio P300. I have one coming in Wednesday that has been thoroughly rebuilt by a good friend of mine who used to consult for Sudgen in Europe. I consider the extra money spent on the rebuild rather worth it. I have owned these units (the P300 in particular) like what they do given their limitations. Almost always used for source equipment.
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Underwood HIFi has a line of lower cost power conditioners and offers a trial period.
I am personally a fan of the Garth Powell units (Furman and Audioquest) that have storage in the unit for more power than the line can deliver for transients.
While I use the Niagara 7000 in home system to great effect, I needed to put together another much cheaper system and found a very old Furman reference 15 for sale. It’s pretty much the same as the current reference 15i units sold now except for cosmetics.
I just noticed a Furman reference 20 on flea bay for 800 obo. I would imagine it would blow away even an Niagara 1200.
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@pesky_wabbit
despite claims of elaborate filtration all they contained was a varistor and a capacitor
Not surprised, a lot of products consist of normal stuff in a fancy box. After you install your dedicated lines, if you want to spend just a little money for protection and filtration, check out the Jon Risch ac filter described here and here. I made two of them years ago and they continue to work great. Take Five Audio in Canada used to offer a kit for this. Unfortunately, I could no longer find the original links but you might ask around on audio asylum.
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@erik_squires +1 No need to spend a ton of money and dedicated lines are great (I have 4) but you are right, only keeps you off the household grid.
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Let me talk about what I’m most familiar with. The difference between the Furman PST-8D and Elite 15i (which I own) is mostly in convenience features.
Both offer active noise removal (LiFT) and top end surge protection and noise filtering (SMP). The Elite adds:
- Power factor correction, which can help improve current/power delivery
- 12V trigger switched outlets
- 4 independently filtered banks
Both are actually tested as surge protectors. I live in South Carolina, and we get serious thunderstorms here. The idea that I am going to let my precious gear connect directly to the incoming power without surge protection is absurd, never going to happen. I’ve already lost an unprotected laptop last year. Sometimes these storms sneak up on you too, so the counter argument that I should always unplug gear during a storm isn’t that worthwhile. I could be asleep or miles and miles away.
The other idea I see floated around is that somehow having a dedicated line (a good idea) makes you immune from noise and power problems. No, it only reduces how susceptible you are to noise in your house, somewhat, and with a heavy enough gauge may help minimize voltage sag. That is, what sag you have control over. The idea that the transformer outside on a pad or up a pole is "ideal" is one I will never ever comprehend.
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