If you have plasterboard walls and studs 16" on center, you have plenty of room to fashion some niches/alcoves into which the speakers can be inserted. Try to make the niches/alcoves as deep as possible, even if this means robbing some space from the contiguous room.
Perfect Speaker Placement - Put next to the back wall as much as possible.
Hello,
I happen to find an good article about the ideal speaker placement.
(Easiest version without numbers & formulas that I can’t honestly understand :D)
I’d like to share.
Personally I find two things interesting.
1) Only use 40% of the room area (38% rule)
2) Put the speaker as close as possible to the back-wall (next to bass trap)
Of course, minor adjustment would be required depending on speakers.
Still, I think this is helpful to figure out the very first step.
http://arqen.com/acoustics-101/room-setup-speaker-placement/
https://realtraps.com/art_room-setup.htm
Happy listening.
p.s. what should I do with half of the room left... :?
I happen to find an good article about the ideal speaker placement.
(Easiest version without numbers & formulas that I can’t honestly understand :D)
I’d like to share.
Personally I find two things interesting.
1) Only use 40% of the room area (38% rule)
2) Put the speaker as close as possible to the back-wall (next to bass trap)
Of course, minor adjustment would be required depending on speakers.
Still, I think this is helpful to figure out the very first step.
http://arqen.com/acoustics-101/room-setup-speaker-placement/
https://realtraps.com/art_room-setup.htm
Happy listening.
p.s. what should I do with half of the room left... :?
71 responses Add your response
About a foot maybe a few inches more from front wall with speaker toe in whereas I can barely still see inside surface/side of speaker. My seat is equidistant to the distance separating speakers. Tweeters at ear height etc.. This has always been I tried and true method, at least for me. No science involved 😁 |
If all of you were in the same room conversing face to face, would you be speaking to each other the way you are writing to each other from afar? Obviously, I am not referring to everyone who is posting on this thread. Most of the people on these forums know how to disagree but still be civil to one another. |
The only way to solve the problem is like this.I own 7 headphones, 2 stax electroacoustic, 2 magneplanars. 2 dynamic one, one hybrid... I dont listen to them for the last months anymore, my speakers wre not in their level class few months ago... But now rightfully embed my speakers make them not interesting, not natural, each one headphone has his own peculiar limitation...Compared to them my speakers has not these limitations anymore... Happy New Year... |
In a perfect world your room dimensions would be 14.5 X 23.5 X 9'. That gets you the Golden Ratio in all 3 dimensions, and a good starting point. Unless you use the Bolt method, in which case it's off the chart. Go figure. Literally. You still need to calculate and deal with the eigenmodes in those 3 dimensions plus axial, tangential, and oblique. Like this: https://amcoustics.com/tools/amroc |
I read an article on the net some months ago about acoustics of small room.... The article is no more there where i read it... It was a discussion with 4 great well known acousticians, they speak politely, were in accord about many things but surprizingly used very different approach to similar problems and seems to disagree at some point... I was amazed and conforted in my improvised ears listenings experiments at the times creating my own controls devices for my room... Acoustic is a practical art, ears are needed, and any small room is a unique problem that cannot be OPTIMALLY solved most of the times by simple rule... The proof that it is so, was for me this disagrement between these specialists very palpable in the discussion... Alas! the article is nowhere to be found and i dont remember the names... I remember only that it was a discussion at McGill university ... «A Bird's nest is not a man's house»-Anonymus Smith |
Did you read the article?Yes. Any many similar over the years. It was talking about setting up a mixing studio." Start by facing the short wall of your room" is a non-starter. Many ’mixing studios’ I worked in and my company wired had the desk facing the long wall. SOP for an engineer who works in rooms from a London scoring stage to some artist’s ’mix room’ is to take your speakers (& amps, cables, level control for the truly twisted) along with some music you know and set up your speakers at the best location for that room. The article is a crock for kiddies with a laptop. |
The usage is different, but acoustics does not magically change, and goals acoustically need to be similar.Control room acoustics are nothing like home. The article was not about professional control rooms. Did you read the article? It was talking about setting up a mixing studio. I can only expect that most people who are posting here didn't take the time to read the articles in any depth and / or are commenting without understanding the articles. They are practically how to articles on either speaker placement close to a wall and also far from a wall and whether near field, small speaker or large speaker does not matter. The methodologies and same decision making process must still be applied for optimum results. |
"...Your Maggies and Martin Logan’s may not work as noted, that article was not targeting this type of speaker. However your Triangles, with the proper acoustic treatment would. Just because a speakers name is Triangle does not change the physics of acoustics..." The answer is; No they wouldn’t. None of my Triangle loudspeakers worked placed near the front wall even with acoustic treatments. It would have been nice if they did because they ended well out into the room. You may not be aware that some Triangle loudspeakers have rear firing drivers so a blanket statement that all Triangle loudspeakers would work on the wall (near the wall) may mislead some people. Triangle says; " a position far from the back wall reproduces a wide and deep sound image." ...and indeed it does. |
Control room acoustics are nothing like home.Acoustic law dont change but they cannot be applied with blinders... No small room is the same, and a small room has not the same geometry, the same topology and the same acoustical content than a larger living room... The acoustic law dont change, for example the ratio 62 to 38 is the Golden section...This is universal from molecules to galaxies and in between corresponding to the optimal distribution of branches all along a tree trunk...But even this ratio cannot be blindly put in action without taking into account anything else...(in my square small room this ratio work) But a Greek remarkable open amphitheater acoustic is not a closed church acoustic, same laws applied and some other laws linked to the existence of walls and ceilings, same laws but with new one and with great variations and modifications and adaptations.. In fact except some very universal laws about ratio or some reflective principle and absorbing pattern and materials functions and diffusion law in relation with geometrical patterns etc, no room ask for exactly the same treatment and controls... Any acoustician use his ears not only an equation...Otherwise for example: how to adapt some surface or correcting some diffusive 3-d patterns to the disparate acoustical properties of the different materials in use to construct some room and building and how about the diffrent acoustic properties of the materials and fabric of the furniture? Geometry, topology and acoustical content of materials in the room are NEVER the same for ANY room compare to others... All object in a room impact the perception of sound.... Even small one....And dont laugh some may hear that if not you.... Anyway acoustic said so, not me....And i verified some of that in the last 2 years... In the same way they are general rules for each kind of speakers, but none of them can be used in exactly the same way, locations, distance, if the geometry, the topology(how many windows and doors) and the acoustical content is different for each room where they will put into work... In acoustic no one can economize or dispense with working ears.... |
The usage is different, but acoustics does not magically change, and goals acoustically need to be similar.Control room acoustics are nothing like home. Walls, floors, trapping, etc. vary massively from studio to studio. Large control rooms may have 15 to 30 x 3 to 5 feet of glass, often with an angle or two. Ceilings may be 12 feet or higher. There are often racks of equipment with metal face plates behind and/or to the side of the engineers position [EP]. There is a large flat, metal sheet extending 3 to 6 feet either side of the EP. There is a flat meter bridge extending the same distance about 3 feet in front of the EP. Add in musicians, artists, A&R & record co. execs and it's not at all similar. Monitors require several multiples the power at 3-4m as at 1m away markedly increasing distortion. Reflections from the back of the console markedly change the tonal balance. Engineers have dozens of tools to master. Near field monitors are but one. |
Audio2design, you are ruining everyone's mythology! The rules of acoustics do not change for someone's convenience, but there are practicalities in the home environment that prevent optimal positioning of speakers. In the studio you can construct a wall specifically designed and angled for speakers so they can be flush. In a home the walls being at best 6 inches thick will not house an entire speaker and the wall is most likely flat pointing the speaker past the optimum 16 inches behind your head. Many speakers such as Wilsons are not flat. Then there are the types of speakers that are used at home that are totally inappropriate for flush mounting such as dipoles of various sorts. Paul Klipsch was very clever back in the day. His speakers were designed to be in corners and right up against the wall. They were so efficient that the flea watt amps of the period could drive them to thunderous levels. They remain popular to this day! Using the short wall I would think would be obvious by now. Keeping the subwoofer drivers as close to the wall as possible is extremely important if you do not want huge variations in bass response throughout the room. Even with a swarm system the drivers should be against a wall for efficiency reasons. Using speakers that are directional in some way can help quite a bit. Dipoles and horns are good examples. They limit reflections reducing interference effects. My personal favorite is the line source dipole which dramatically reduces reflections the only caveats being that you have to deaden the wall behind the speaker and shift to subwoofers at some point. Even so you do not want to keep the speaker far from the wall. 3 feet is the maximum. Assuming you are using subwoofers and high pass filters you can keep the inside edges almost touching the wall. Big speakers like Sound Labs become the wall. The rules become more important for standard dynamic speakers as they are much less directional. Keeping them close to the wall deadening the first reflection points works best. As always shifting to subwoofers helps to manage the bass. If you really want to optimize your situation you have to impulse test your room with a calibrated mike. Then you can see the frequency response of your system nicely graphed out. There are many brands available. But then you have to be able to do something about it and that is where room control comes in. If you purchase a DEQX Premate you get the microphone and the works. You can equalize the system digitally so the response is perfectly flat at the listening position and then you can tailor the response however you like. There are other brands available such as Anthem, Trinnov and now Mcintosh makes a unit. IMHO Trinnov is the best followed by DEQX which is the best value. Computer based systems are difficult to coordinate if you use more than two channels such as with subwoofers where you are using 4 channels. This article is a great starting point. It covers the basic concepts and gives you a good idea what you are dealing with even if we do not have studio mixing rooms in our houses. Everybody has their own situation and different solution may be required. What I can say for sure is that you will have a more enjoyable system if you start from a flat frequency response. It is absolutely the best reference point. If you do not know where you are starting, you can't possibly know were you are going to wind up. I have tested some very large SOTA systems and seen some very wild frequency response curves. |
I would say this type of setup is for studio control rooms. You would be surprised how much acoustic treatment is in the walls and ceiling that may not be visible to the eye. I have some experience with this. https://www.gossardstudios.com/ |
To clarify, you guys are saying that your speakers are 38% into the room and your listening seat is also 38% into the room? This seems like it would be a nearfield setup in anything less than a 40 foot deep room...Yes you are right... In my case i must say that owning a small room , my nearfield position at 3 feet+inches of my speakers and/or at 7 feet of them in regular position, this golden number rule of Fibonacci is perfect: 62 % ratio to 38%... But compared to most i which own more bigger normal living room for example, my 2 positions are really almost 2 near-field one that work well one or the other, BECAUSE of this ratio in my square small room.... The difference between the 2 positions in my case, i love the 2, is a slight change in the relation between dynamic and imaging... Imaging better possible at 3 feet and dynamic better possible at 7 feet....But soundstage holographic and relatively comparable timbre and decay in the 2 positions with only an accentuation on details in nearfield and an accentuation in bass frequencies dynamic in my regular position... I love the 2 without being able to chose between the 2.... There is difference but nothing really is lacking.... A sure sign of a good acoustical setting in my case... Then in my room the golden ratio win the game.... |
I don’t think there is any such thing as "perfect" speaker placement as long as you have them in a room with people, furniture, and pets. However, any of the major speaker placement formulas may improve your set up just by (a) getting the speakers away from the walls, (b) introducing symmetry in the relationship between speakers, walls, and listening position, (c) ensuring that the speakers are not equally distant from boundaries in more than one dimension. Beyond that, I’m skeptical that there necessarily is anything dramatically better about one of these formulas than another (Rule of Thirds, 38%, Cardas, etc.) I’ve found that the Allison Rule is more flexible than others w.r.t. furniture placement. The Allison Rule (as I understand it) depends on 3 measurements, namely height of the woofer off the floor, distance of speaker front face to front wall, and distance of speaker front face center to the side wall. It states that the middle of these distances should be the square root of the product of the least and the greatest of these distances. So I place my speakers about 4.5 feet in from the side walls; midpoint of the 2 woofers is about 2 feet high; the front face is about 3 feet out from the front wall. That is, 3 feet (the middle distance) is the square root of: 2 feet (the least distance) times 4.5 feet (the greatest distance). The point is to maximize the differences among these 3 measurements, within the constraints of room size and speaker placement, in order to minimize room effects. By "back wall", the OP seems to be referring to what other audiophiles usually call the "front wall", that is, the wall directly in front of the listener (and behind the speakers). In my experience, placing speakers very close to that wall may improve bass extension, but generally is not so good for imaging/soundstage. I prefer to pull speakers away from the walls and increase bass extension by adding a subwoofer. Also, I use highly directive (focused) monopole, sealed, hybrid electrostatic speakers. These tend to minimize room effects. I get a very sharply focused center image along with a rather flat frequency response between about 10hZ and 15kHz+, without any room treatments (other than furnishings) or PEQ. Then, to widen/deepen the soundstage, I use BACCH4Mac software. |
I thought it was a good article mainly talking about small monitor speakers in a nearfield listening position with bits about larger speakers thrown in. For small speakers, I would suggest his recommendations. I have done it this way with good success. But for larger full range speakers, you need the speakers out from the wall, way out. There are many articles on speaker placement and for example the Cardas method, he states recommendations for planer speakers and for box speakers, nearfield or not, and for square vs rectangle rooms. The Wilson duette speakers sound very good up against the wall whereas the Wilson Alexia 2’s would not. I also agree with audio2design and many others on these forums: never listen to millercarbon. I think it’s outrageous that MC compares his low fi system with Mike Lavigne’s system, that’s an embarrassment to Mike. |
There has to be some type of program where you rnter your room dimensions and it will give you different speaker placement distances from the front wall in order to tackle specific dips. Like, if you have a dip at 40hz, thats a 28 foot wavelength so at what speaker location will that wave cancel itself out at... Room treatments are so huge in the way your setup sounds and once you get used to them theres no going back. You just want to treat every square inch with absorption or diffusion. I’ve been enjoying dsp as well. Its kind of fun. Its somewhat like changing speakers in and out without changing speakers in and out. It allows me to still enjoy my high quality speakers but with just a different flavor of sound. To clarify, you guys are saying that your speakers are 38% into the room and your listening seat is also 38% into the room? This seems like it would be a nearfield setup in anything less than a 40 foot deep room... |
Ok, I feel like this is an extension of another post I just made in another discussion about imaging. I used to sell audio, I have some experience setting up different kinds of speakers. They vary dramatically in their optimal placement from walls. So no one rule works, despite acoustic treatments or DSPing being helpful. If you have a port in the back of your speaker, it behaves differently than a sealed acoustic suspension, which behaves differently than dipoles. Some are made to be against walls or made to be placed in corners (I sold Klipsch speakers). |
chilli42
Nothing will replace fun experiments with your own ears.... It takes times, it takes me 2 years to figure it out, one incremental acoustic controls or treatment , one step at a time...But we must all learn how to listen sound...Hearing sound is not listening sound...we must learn to be consciously active in listening sound... And the method for becoming active in listening is simple: we create a modification in the room and after some listenings we decide if this is good or bad for our ears, this is called feed-back... One feed-back at a time the acoustic veiled marvel of your room reveal itself.... It is the contrary of a strip tease tough , the beautiful nude room is dressed by you one step at a time..... How is the texture of this sound? How is his color? How is the decay? is it a flowing sound like a wave gently floating to my ears or a sound that seems a distant island? Are each instrument well placed and separated but anyway partaking the same ethereal space in my room? is the soud limited to a walk between the speakers? if so this is wrong...Etc.... All these impression will guide you to take the good choices... Experimenting is trials and errors...But any errors is only a step to a new joy... You will be amazed someday, when listening music,you will be able to qualify the sound qualities and variations spontaneously on the spot... And the doubter simplistic mind must know that, NO, i dont have and we dont need hearing bat ears to do that.... The only rule is believing in yourself and having faith in your ears... Your room will be for your ears, not for the neighbour or for an audiophile bat omni hearing creature, but for you.... Take pleasure listening and think about the way you can change thing little by little and verify with your own measuring rod: your ears/brain/body.... I experienced the same desorientation 7 years ago as you.... I made mistakes listening to reviewers in my buying choices... No reviewers said to me that the only important factor are not the choice of costly gear, but the way we must control vibration, electrical noise level, and acoustical settings... They all sell something and people wanted to pay without never making their homework.... But this homework is the only real joy in audiophile life It is listening experiments with low cost device to cure the 3 source of noise or of lost of S.Q. It is not only buying a beautiful new electronic design ... It is creativity and music the never ending real joy.... Happy New Year... « Sounds are like love, they seems illusions sometimes to some, but these illusions are the only real deal»-Anonymus |
Just beginning in the hobby, I can’t tell you all how helpful it is to see the lack of agreement amongst those with years of experience in the hobby. It’s takes subject matter that is critical but confusing to impossible to comprehend. I am also stuck with long wall placement in a 33’ x 18’ room. The one bit of value that I have gathered from this ‘discussion’ is that I am best off throwing a dart anywhere in the board and starting there. After much (confusing) reading on the subject I have sent my dart to the golden ratio. This allows me to manage two dimensions at once (distance from side wall and distance from front wall) as one variable. If it does not work just throw another dart. |
In thousand of years nobody has ever contested this mathematical fact, even trees obey it...And celestial dynamics are also obeying it... http://article.sapub.org/10.5923.j.astronomy.20190801.02.html 38: 62 is the proportion between the shorter line and the longer one....Or 1/1.6180 |
baylinor -- you actually induced me to take a tape measure out and measure the speaker distance from the front wall. Assuming that the 38% figure is from the wall to the speaker's business end and not from the end where the wires attach, I've found I'm within a quarter inch from 38%. No wonder my system is so world class. If Hairy Person were still kicking, he'd give my ears a medal. I dig your Aladdin Sane avatar, too. |
For the maggies i dont know, i own box speakers, but the golden proportion has make his proof in all nature and in all the best old monastery with an extraordinary acoustic and not only greek hall... Acoustic law dont change with speakers, but some speakers yes need precise location that cannot be the same than a box speaker.... But i an pretty sure that you can use the same golden geometry in another way with the maggies perhaps not the same % from the back or front wall but perhaps the ratio of the distance of each of the maggies speakers from the lateral wall and from each other try it with the same proportion....You must experiment... «Why Cleopatra was so beautiful? It is only geometry brother»-Groucho Marx «What is acoustic? A flowing silent geometry» Anonymus Happy new year.... |
The acoustic properties they discuss are universal,I think that this is right because the ratio 62% to 38% is an expression of the Golden Ratio....Then older than european civilization and well known in very ancient times and used by the Greek in acoustic...This ratio is a constant of nature not a fad of the moment... Then the change of goal using a mixing studio or a small room for music dont change acoustic indeed.... |
Wilson Duette 2s, back against the wall Audionote (UK) E, J, K. In the corners Niam DBL, NBL, SBL,SL2 etc, all back against a solid wall (not plasterboard) Same for the orignal Linn Isobariks All Laesen speakers, back against the wall. These are all designed for near wall placement and sound bass light out in the room. I own the Naim NBLs and they don’t need bass traps to work 6.0cm from the wall at their backs (but note the precision of that measurement). I’ve not heard Duettes, Briks or Larsens; the Audionotes can give a very large scale sound but it takes a bit of careful positioning to not get ten foot guitars along with it. None will give that holographic imaging that I’ve heard from some systems but I’ve never heard it in a concert hall or opera house so that doesn’t bother me.. |
I beg to differ ieales. The usage is different, but acoustics does not magically change, and goals acoustically need to be similar. Read the articles in detail. The acoustic properties they discuss are universal, but very few have ever done the work to place speakers close to a wall and address issues both from an acoustic treatment standpoint and an equalization standpoint. The articles clearly discuss these issues. They don't say this is the only optimum method, they do say it can have optimum properties by placing the rear wall and hence rear wall reflection as far away as possible hence removing its interaction in the listening experience. That of course does not change for home listening either. Not a recording engineer, but spent much of my life in the technical ends of the recording industry to pretty intimately familiar. |
Wilson Duette 2s, back against the wall Audionote (UK) E, J, K. In the corners Niam DBL, NBL, SBL,SL2 etc, all back against a solid wall (not plasterboard) Same for the orignal Linn Isobariks All Laesen speakers. These are all designed for near wall placement and sound bass light out in the room. I own the Naim NBLs and they don’t need bass traps to work 6.0cm from the wall at their backs (but note the precision of that measurement). I’ve not heard Duettes, Briks or Larsens; the Audionotes can give a very large scale sound but it takes a bit of careful positioning to not get ten foot guitars along with it. None will give that holographic imaging that I’ve heard from some systems but I’ve never heard it in a concert hall or opera house so that doesn’t bother me.. |
I have gained a lot of knowledge and have received a lot of useful advice from various posts in this forum. Obviously, there are those here who have a wealth of knowledge and experience with audio equipment and the application of them into the listening environment. Often, the discussions stray from the main subject of the OP. Sometimes these stray comments are constructive and one may pick up some info that wasn't expected. However, dueling opinions and personal insults are things best left out of the intent of the forum to help readers obtain answers to specific issues. I praise the knowledge of some of the posters in this forum but do not want to sift thru unrelated input to the questions at hand. Happy New Year Everyone. |
I determined my position by listenings in regular position and in near field... Interestingly my 2 best locations respect this 38%... My first seat near the speakers is at 38% from the front wall,,, My second seat from the back wall is also at 38 %... I just measured few minutes ago to verify... In these 2 positions imaging and soundstage are holographic and near perfect...I attributed that to my embeddings controls but also i have always be conscious that optimal location for the ears exist, it is just that i never know this %.... 😊 I determined my regular position with my ears ignoring this rule at this time...But now it is amazing that it works....Anyway even without knowing the rule it is relatively easy to spot the location with short listenings sessions....i did it... Interesting..... A number to be remembered....You know why? Simple...It just POP in my brain... Because this is the value of the golden proportion, the crux of greek esthetic and acoustic and of Egyptian architecture....Rediscovered by Fibonacci in Italy just before Leonardo.... This is the reason why i suspended my copper bell resonator in the center of my room from the ceiling at the same proportion...I just realized that... This law of acoustic is older than the Greek theater .... 😊 « Universes passes by but the golden ratio stay»- Some reincarnation of Pythagorus «All your % is bullshit, i must pay my taxes anyway»- Groucho Marx |
Amazing, math and physics work! Thank you for the post @baylinor. If you do measurements, you will likely find that is where the frequency response is flattest. However I find that the 38% rule from the back wall is the ultimate position for me. I kept moving my seat between 33% and 43% and somehow I always end up at 38%. No joke. It is the truth. |
The 38% rule from the front wall, I would never even attempt it in my 23ft long rectangular room. It somehow would make me miss enjoying two thirds of my beautiful room. However I find that the 38% rule from the back wall is the ultimate position for me. I kept moving my seat between 33% and 43% and somehow I always end up at 38%. No joke. It is the truth. That's where my sound comes out with the widest soundstage where the music comes from the entire front wall, left to right, top to bottom, and yet keeping the clear location and clarity of every instrument. I move back a few inches and I lose some that instrument location and clarity. I move forward a few inches and I lose some of the wide spread soundstage all over the front wall. It is that precise. Of course the room acoustic treatments are totally up to snuff as my house of stereo system shows. All this to say the OP's posted articles are far from being garbage. It is literally not very smart to disregard such information. |
