The M2 is a great dynamic loudspeaker and buying demo units is a great way to save money as you get the factory warranty. However, $50,000 is still a lot of money to spend on loudspeakers and there are better speakers for that kind of money. They will still require subwoofers for their best performance but most speakers in that price range or any other for that matter require subs. REL subs are not good enough for them. I would stick to Magico's subs. They make the best commercial subs.
Opportunity to buy Demo Magico M2?
A dealer called me with an offer to sell their demo Magico M2’s at a massive discount. I was recently in their shop and tested the A5’s with my Gryphon Diablo 300, and I found the bass to be lacking with the A5’s. I think this was likely due to the fact that they had less than 250 hours on them.
My room, while not massive, is on the larger side. Vaulted ceilings that rises to 14 feet at the peak, about 26ft front to back, and open on the sides (house is open concept). There is a large and tall island that separates out the listening area.
Considering my room size, and considering my not so great experience with the A5’s, should I bother lugging my amp into the shop to test the M2’s? I have to travel a ways so it’s a bit of a commitment. But the discount they are offering is about $25k off. And they said it would include the M-Pods. Thoughts?
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To close off this thread, my used 802 D2’s arrived, stunningly in actual mint condition. You can’t actually tell that they used. However, one tweeter failed to make a sound. The store luckily had a spare one (brand new!) and rushed it out to me. Installing it was easy. I was stunned at how different these sounded from my old 803 D2’s considering that they use the identical midrange driver and tweeter. The mid and upper frequencies are crisper and more refined with the 802’s, and are more relaxed. At first I wasn’t sure as I thought maybe there was some “impact” that I’d miss in the upper ranges. In fact, there IS less impact with respect to heavy snare drums and in your face impact. The 803’s have more bass too. BUT…. Going back to the 803’s they now sound thick and heavy handed. The 802’s are SO much more refined. After a week with them the bass is opening up but they won’t ever get to the levels of the 803’s. The bass however is more detailed and refined with the 802’s. The 802’s are also easier to listen to in the background. With the 803’s, the more heavy handed delivery makes it more annoying to have on when you aren’t actively listening to them. Detail, imaging and soundstage have just gone several levels up as expected with the 802’s. Very crisp, easy to listen to, and yet at the same time “big” sounding. Best of all, the tons balance is spot on for my liking. This was unlike what I found with the 6-7 different high end speakers I tested. I consistently found them to have a harsh midrange with my Diablo 300, which is known to have the opposite of a harsh midrange. But with the 802 D2’s the balance is very, very easy to listen to. I don’t know if a speaker I’d rather own, for my preferences. I’m considering whether I want a pair of Rel subs to help support the low end in my very large room with high ceilings.. But the bass is opening up still (I just had dedicated 20A lines installed and I’m noticing a fuller sound as the new line is breaking in). |
You know, there’s a plethora of very fine full range speakers out there, some costing as much as a new Ferrari. It’s all a matter of your own personal preference and how deep you pockets are. I have heard all the speakers mentioned here. Look, save yourself some time, aggravation and $$$$. Go find and listen to a pair of Revel Salon 2 speakers. The Salons are an absolute steel at their asking price, let alone what they can be had for on the used market. Still, one of the most phenomenal sounding true full range speakers on the market!!! |
Since upgrading my system, my status in life HAS increased and everyone wants to be my friend now! I am self indulging with some Radiohead right at this instant. Nigel Godrich’s production is a miracle on my system… 802 D2 speakers should arrive in 3-ish weeks or so! Can’t wait for more status and self-indulging! |
just a technical note on the "burning" of speakers - it's not just the speakers themselves, but also the components of the crossovers. I built the speakers myself with relatively uncompromising crossoverss, including Jantzen WAX coil huge reels, the sound stabilized after about 4 months of intense playing. |
@nyev Magico A5 after your B&Ws is a totally different sound and I expected you would not be a fan and like the Wilsons better (I owned B&Ws and liked their sound a lot and appreciated how engaging they were). One important note about Wilson speakers - the placement is critical (same with other speakers you might argue but with the Wilsons it is a bit more so) . They’re not forgiving of untreated / very lively rooms and or less than optimal placement. You need to work to get them to sound the way you like but good news is it is possible. What you mentioned, thinness in mid bass, that could be if they’re spread a bit too far apart. Moving them closer together would put a bit more meat around the bone there. They’re detailed and very revealing but not harsh. It takes time but once you dial them in they’ll reward you with amazing sound. |
@ronboco, Sadly I don’t think I will be travelling to hear the Rockports anytime soon. However, they are on my bucket list to listen to. I love Boston and when the time comes I will stop by Goodwin’s to audition the Avior ii’s with the Diablo 300. It all comes down to tonal balance really. Yes, I want performance in soundstage, imaging, transparency, air, dynamics, engagement, but my tonal preferences comes way ahead in priority. If the balance isn’t right for me, then all of these other attributes don’t matter. What I’m going to get in the 802 D2’s, I expect from reading other’s comparisons, is that balance I adore with an improvement in all those other areas over my current speakers, even if more recent models do those “other” things better (they do). I’m happy with my decision. I might reallocate some savings to upgrading my Audioquest Diamond USB cables, which recently I’ve become less enamoured with, when I’ve found that certain generic USB cords sound better in my system…
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I should also add - I didn’t even like my 803 D2’s with ANY of the multiple separates that I demo’d at home (McIntosh, Bryston, Moon / Simaudio, others). It wasn’t until I tried the magic combo with the Gryphon Diablo 300 that I was liking what I heard! Damn, I’m just realizing how ultra-specific my tastes are. I literally don’t know of another amp-speaker combo that sounds even acceptable to me. No wonder it’s taken 25 or so years for me to arrive at a sound I truly am at peace with! Hopefully the 802 D2 will be a “tweak” of an improvement in detail and soundstage without disrupting my tonal preferences. From everything I’ve read comparing the 802 D2 to the 802 D3 (which I’ve heard), I am pretty confident this is the best choice. |
Thanks all for the valuable insight as always. To be very clear, I’m not much of a fan of B&W either! I am however a fan of the D2 generation of B&W. I just read an old thread comparing the 802 D2 to the 802 D3, and the consensus in that thread by multiple posters is exactly in line with my experience with my 802 D2’s and comparing against the D3 line. That thread also validates what the salesman who set up my 801 D4 audition told me: that the D2 generation is richer and fatter and more bottom up. It seems this is my go-to sound and everything else doesn’t sound right to me including all newer generations of B&W. I’m sure more options would be available for me if I had room for two subwoofers, but I do not. It amazes me that my preferences in that bottom-up tonal balance is not the norm, at least from what I hear from most speakers! @erik_squires I don’t doubt that you’ve heard harsh treble with B&W but I can’t say I hear it as being any brighter than the other top tier speakers I’ve auditioned in the past few weeks. Even the leaner sounding D3 and D4 models don’t have bright treble to my ears. Maybe my ears are rolling off the highs as I get older, so it’s not an issue :)
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I don’t think the M5 is lacking in bass but rather tuned a little cool. Placement could be critical. Having said that, they also have amazing imaging on and off axis along with glass smooth frequency response through most of the vocal and treble ranges. A little chesty to my ears. B&W as an alternative... Meh. I just don’t like their treble harshness and no one can convince me otherwise. Monitor Audio Platinum are better directions, or Revel or Wilson IMHO. Many love B&W, of course, and many love Magico, what I cannot imagine is loving the Magico mid-treble balance and thinking B&W might be another good direction. These speakers don't even talk the same language IMHO and never will. |
@anotherbob , just one person’s opinion but this interesting review of the PL300 (they loved them) said that the Gryphon Diablo “took the life out” of these speakers. Said the Diablo did much better with Dynaudio and speakers that are harder loads. |
@anotherbob , Monitor Audio PL500 was originally on my list to audition until another Goner who has them told me they felt they needed 4.5ft of clearance from the front wall. I only have 2.5ft between the wall and the rear of the speaker… |
@thyname , I auditioned my Diablo 300 with the 802 D3 series, and found it to be very impressive. Definitely a highly sophisticated loudspeaker. Enough so that I bought my Diablo. However, it was barely meaty enough for my tastes, and I was VERY nervous pulling the trigger on my Diablo in 2019. I thought that my 803 D2’s at home would sound even leaner than the 802 D3’s did. I had conducted at-home tests of many separates, including McIntosh, and my 803’s all sounded harsh on a lot of material. My Gryphon dealer was in a different city and a home demo of the Diablo wasn’t possible, so I was, again, nervous. But when I first connected my new Diablo at home three years ago, to my surprise, I was greeted with a rich, room-filling, detailed and punchy sound that was what I was after. This is why I now think I really want to upgrade within the two-generations old D2 series. I recently tested the 801 D4’s with my Diablo 300, at the shop that I bought my Diablo, and the system sounded downright terrible - too much bass for a change, and mids and treble were the opposite of free-flowing. Uptight and ridged. Now I know the 801 is a highly regarded speaker and I’m not judging it. My amp is also highly regarded by most. So the only explanation is that it is a bad pairing, the room was way over dampened (it was), or my tastes are bonkers weird. The 801 D4’s were well broken in according to the sales guy. When I explained what I liked about the sound of my 803 D2’s tone, he claimed the D2 series especially has a reputation for being more “rock and roll”, in that it was richer and fatter sounding with a more bottom-up tonal balance. He said some guys have a soft spot for D2 because that is the sound they are after. No idea if this is true, but it’s consistent with my limited experience with the 803D2. So again that is really what I’m hoping for by sticking with the old D2 series! It’s a gamble but less so because it’s so much less money. To be clear the D3 and D4 series are technically miles ahead of my current 803 D2 speakers, in terms of soundstaging, being able to disappear, etc. But I just can’t listen to them - they stress me out! |
@nyev :
Sometimes, grass is NOT greener on the other side. Also sometimes, what we have and like is the best for us. If not broken, why fix it.
You probably know this, but the D2 is two generations ago. Current version is D4, launched last year. And given the size of your room, the 802 or the 801 would work best.
Full disclosure, I am a bit biased, as I own the 803 D3s. Unless I will become rich some day (highly unlikely), the B&W are my speakers. If I were to upgrade, would be the 802 D4.
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OP, Sounds like you are making progress. I have heard a lot of Magico and Wilson systems. I have always been very impressed… but also, I do not want that. At the highest level you get incredible detail… and natural sound,.. to a point… but you can get loose too much natural organic comfortable sound. I have carefully climbed to higher levels of components and speakers to have a wonderfully forgiving and natural sounding system that exactly appeals to my sensibilities. It really sounds like you know what you like, have a very discerning ear, and are able to hear the speakers that fulfill that niche. I guess the only question is about the electronics driving the speakers you have heard. Do you know them well enough to be able to take them out of the equation (and the venue) when you hear the speakers. My guess from your descriptions is probably yes… but assume you swap Rowland amp (and preamp) with an Audio Research tube amp and the character of all the speakers will change considerably. You are comfortable knowing how this would change the character? To be honest… I have forgotten the electrons you own. Just saying that over the last fifteen years my goals in sounds changed. Speakers were the first change I made, followed by swapping most of my other components to raise my system several levels.
I’m just talking to see if something strikes you as relevant. You have a very good concept of what you want… which can be the hardest part.
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The issue I’m having, is I find my speakers so much more comfortable and enjoyable to listen to than any of the top-tier speakers that I’ve been testing. I’ve come to realize that all I’m looking for is exactly the sound of my current 803 D2 speakers with a touch more detail and better imaging. To me the 802 D2’s seem to fit that bill. I hope! The opportunity to save money is actually just a secondary bonus. Assuming the speakers work out that is. My goal really is just to bring my speakers up to the level of the rest of my system, especially my Diablo 300. I don’t really need spectacular performance to be happy with my system. I do want spectacular musical engagement however! |
@iluvboxing , it would require the dealer to travel a full day to get the speakers to me in my house. And a full day to bring them back if they didn’t work out. Typically I’ve found dealers are not willing to do this. However, if I were to compensate them for their time and travel costs, maybe they’d be willing? And then I just keep the speakers if they are okay in my space. That would be very costly if I didn’t like them however. @fastfreight , I’d consider subs but as I mented on the left of my system there is not space for one. Still really liking the much less costly used but great condition B&W 802 D2’s from a seller near me. I’ve been in contact with the seller and am considering.
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nyev, Out of curiosity, what prevents the dealer from bringing the Magico's to your home to audition them? I ask this because the Magico M2 will sound different in your environment vs. the dealer's showroom. Also, considering that they called you, it makes sense that they should experience the inconvenience of getting the speakers to you. Besides, if you like them, a simple money transfer closes the deal. If you do not want them, there's no inconvenience on your side. Best, Iluvboxing. |
I think most speakers benefit from a couple of well placed subs. In both my systems, (Revel Salon 2s) and (YG Haileys) adding two REL subs enhanced everything. They do sound good without subs. But once they are dialed in, you surely miss them if you turn them off. It is like that, not boomy bass, just better music I feel well worth it; with speakers costing 10 -50 k, adding a pair of even super nice REL Carbon Specials at 3500 each (yes use the baseline blue upgraded cables) is a value. I did upgrade the subs PC's but not anywhere as expensive as the rest of my system). So I feel don't expect and select a speaker entirely for its bass. (Sure it has to go low to blend with a subwoofer). Go for the musicality, imaging, tone and all around sweetness. And add subwoofers. BTW I run both my systems with full signal to my main speakers. With great amplification it is not an issue. Then blend the subs in with phase, crossover and volume. Good Luck! |
Update: I found a pair of good condition B&W 802 D2’s for sale, from a seller that I could pick the speakers up from on a day trip. Price might be a tad high at $9k USD considering the seller is the second owner. That said, this may be a great opportunity because: -I like the sound of my current 803 D2 speakers but am looking for better detail and imaging. In theory the 802 D2’s could retain what I like about my speakers while adding the improvements I’m looking for. -This approach would save me a ton of cash. Only odd thing is that the ad says the terminal binding posts have been upgraded “to the WBT version”. Not sure what that is but it sounds okay? I might really consider this. |
I listened to the Wilson Sasha DAW’s today with my Diablo 300. I thought they sounded really great on most material. I think many would love this pairing; sound was very natural and free-flowing. Imaging and detail was fantastic and the sound wasn’t bright or harsh at all. But on harder rock with louder guitars they definitely sounded thinner with less mid-bass and lower bass than is comfortable to listen to. Less “meaty” to use the descriptor above. I don’t listen to this type of music often but with my 803 D2’s at home, ALL music sounds fantastic; not just the audiophile friendly material. Maybe that is asking too much of a speaker when things are this highly resolving. I could just about see myself springing for these speakers as they were perfect in almost all ways, except for loud rock with distorted guitars (Pearl Jam etc). But I’m not sure I think losing the ability to play certain music is worth the clear increase in performance when playing other material. I’m certain many would be over the moon with this pairing. And, while Wilson’s look bizarre and weird in photos, I have to say in person I thought they looked spectacular. One thing in my mind is that again, as usual, the room had quite a bit of dampening. So, I do wonder if the harder-edged music would sound fuller in my room which has far less dampening and a hardwood floor. Maybe the Wilson’s WOULD be perfect in my room? Again, testing at home is not an option. I’m not even local to the dealer, and returning after purchasing is not an option either as the shop would be specially ordering them (and there’s a 4-5 month wait). Anyone know if harder-edged music would sound fuller with far less dampening in the room? At the dealer one side wall was entirely covered with treatment and all corners were treated. The ceiling too. These speakers are the closest fit yet. I feel like the Rockports could be a bit more forgiving and “meaty” based on what people are saying, so I might need to wait until I can travel to hear those to make a decision. Or just be happy with my speakers for now! I am finding that the more I upgrade my cabling/electronics, the better my current speakers sound. Will be trying a broken in pair of A5’s tomorrow. After that, all that’s left on my list will be the Rockports.
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@larryi , very interesting! I am listening to the A5’s again tomorrow (a different pair that is broken in). I know what you mean about “meaty”, I like meaty too! |
@leeagc , while there is a really good chance I’d absolutely love the M2’s, between my recent cable upgrades and electrical (house AC) upgrades, adding decent subwoofers would be beyond my budget for sure. Would also need to power them with good cords, and I think I’m at my limit in terms of what I’ve invested in cables! So unless the M2’s have a shot of working well in my largish and more open space, I don’t think they are a consideration anymore, sadly. Of note however, I never run my system loud. That said, even at lower volumes I can sense the power and potential my current B&W 803 D2 speakers have in my room. Only when driven my my Gryphon though. My current speakers have the same driver configuration as the A5’s and are roughly the same size, but my current speakers are ported and the A5’s are not. |
I haven’t been there in a while, but, I liked the people there. None of these stores employ hard sell tactics so a visit is always pleasurable. I went to Command today to pick up a new backed up hard drive for my server. While I was there I was invited to hear a new Isotek power conditioner meant to be used with amplifiers. It just so happened that the system was a Magico A5 powered by the Gryphon Diablo 300. The system had a very tight and precise bottom end that I can understand that some might feel is a bit light in bass (I don’t think so myself). The system is an imaging champ, particularly, with respect to very specific front to back image placement. My principle complaint is that the overall sound is not as meaty (touch thin) as I like, but that is common to most modern high end systems. Still, overall a pleasurable experience. I was surprised by the power conditioner—it made the upper midrange sound a bit more forward and focused without the sound becoming brighter or harsh. This was a significant improvement in a system whose power already goes though a massive isolation transformer, dedicated panel, etc. |
@larryi The third store is Evolution Audio, near Tysons Corner. Have you been there recently? How do you find them? |
I am not a Magico owner, but I can honestly say that my loudspeakers (W-B) required at least 400 hours (almost 4x's longer than the owner's manual suggests before making any subjective judgements) of "break-in". Fortunately, my preamplifier has a white noise generator input to facilitate this (therefore, time calculations are pretty exact). Otherwise, it is very easy to mis-judge a loudspeaker's real "break-in" period. Despite the obvious variables in this fact alone, I wouldn't rush this purchase. As suggested, get them in your home and play them & assume that they really aren't properly "run-in" yet. Best of luck
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Perhaps you could visit the Washington DC area and audition gear at Command Audio and Video. They carry Rockport, Magico, Focal and Devore speakers, and their electronics include Gryphon. And if you do go there, you are also less than 15 minutes from Deja Vu Audio, which is an entirely different audio experience, but, you might be pleasantly shocked by the sonic alternatives. In the price range you are looking at, Deja Vu makes custom systems (vintage horn drivers) that are vivid and alive in ways conventional speakers hardly ever achieve. The electronics at Deja Vu are also radically different (low-powered tube). Both stores make this a good location to hear great sound. |
Without a doubt, if you can, buy the M2's they're an exceptional speaker. I have S5's and a very very revealing system riven by Devialet mono's with JL Fathoms subs. The M2'as are not a large speaker but stunning to look at and exceptional build quality. They're easy to accommodate. Most importantly their sound is amongst the very best at any price and significantly better than my S5's which are in turn much better than A5's. All that being said, you will want a pair of high quality sub woofers like JL Audio Fathoms. With that you will have everything you want. They are accommodating of a wide variety of rooms but with such a large room will need additional bass reinforcement. It's not just the bass notes that will improve but soundstage and presence too. I'd also be tempted to explore a used pair of M3 for around the same price, try talking to Josh at Scott Walker Audio. Your Gryphon will do wonderfully with both M2 and M3. As one previous poster commented, Synergistic Research cabling helps enormously with this setup. |
Magico makes some great speakers. Sounds like you need a good pair of subs even though you are looking at a full range speaker. Ck out a pair of the Rel Carbon Specials or the 212 SX. After using subs in my system for the last 2 years, I can't imagine not having them. They add weight and space and if set up correctly, they totally disappear. |
Perhaps you could work something out with the dealer to pay for a home demo. A home demo should be a given when purchasing at full price, but not for virtually half off. There is no way to predict how it will sound until you get it in your room and see how the speaker reacts. Jay’s latest Magico bears this out. It had far better bass than much larger speakers in his room because the speaker just clicks with the room acoustics. Given the prices you’re working with, maybe offer a grand for the home demo, which would be waived if you keep the speaker. Or perhaps just paying the extra grand regardless is enough of a carrot. No other way to know. |
Nyev, My A5's are positioned 9 feet into a 29 foot long room, also 16 feet wide and with 10 foot ceilings. Break in was not a major factor, sound was good from the off, though improved some with use. Every room has a different sound, so sometimes it's an educated.guess of what will work. FWIW I preferred the A5 to the Sasha DAW, and this is from a Watt/Puppy 7 owner. Good luck! |
@ronboco yes I’ve seen your photos and Avior I’d and it looks awesome. After ruling out all local options I may need to book that trip to Boston using my points…. A bit concerned about catching COVID or now monkeypox while traveling (what next), but only because Canada issued a warning that if you are sick you may be forced into quarantine! |
