I should also add - I didn’t even like my 803 D2’s with ANY of the multiple separates that I demo’d at home (McIntosh, Bryston, Moon / Simaudio, others). It wasn’t until I tried the magic combo with the Gryphon Diablo 300 that I was liking what I heard!
Damn, I’m just realizing how ultra-specific my tastes are. I literally don’t know of another amp-speaker combo that sounds even acceptable to me.
No wonder it’s taken 25 or so years for me to arrive at a sound I truly am at peace with! Hopefully the 802 D2 will be a “tweak” of an improvement in detail and soundstage without disrupting my tonal preferences. From everything I’ve read comparing the 802 D2 to the 802 D3 (which I’ve heard), I am pretty confident this is the best choice.
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To be honest, I really wasn’t blown away by the A5’s. I had lugged my Diablo in and thought it would be great, but nope. Again they only had 250 hours on them. And they were in a very small listening room, with the A5’s way out from the wall (Stereophile and others note they do well closer to the wall). I found the tone to be slightly nasal with some male voices (possibly due to being tonally unbalanced due to the lack of bass), and again there was no bass energy. Also tested the Audiovector Arette R6’s and they had massive bass energy (but they were not for me for other reasons). The A5 bass just seemed blended into the background and muted in comparison, and the speakers had little rhythm and drive as a result.
I really wanted to like these and actually am still interested, in case it’s just a case of not being broken in.
I have a pair of B&W 803 D2’s that tonally sound just perfect in my large-ish listening “area”. Really love the sound of them, but I know I could get far better imaging/soundstage, better dynamics, and slightly better upper mid transparency based on listening to high end speakers. Just need to find some that have the right tonal presentation I’m looking for, as my current speakers simply have that “rightness” factor to the sound. I listened to the new 801 D4’s and they sounded horrid with my amp - pinched and constrained mids and uppers, were hard to listen to. But that might have been due to the dealer’s small and way, way over-treated room sucking up all the mid and higher frequencies.
Speaker shopping is hard work, and stressful as there are so many variables even though I’m taking my amp and all my cabling in…. So I’m not sure if I should bother with the M2’s or not. But the discount is so large I feel like I should make the effort?
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Thanks all. I read a pro review of the M2’s and the reviewer had what sounded like a very, very similar room to what I have - larger, open concept with the room extending out, with an open staircase. While the reviewer LOVED the speakers, he said that his 16’ x 30’ room was not ideal for these speakers and said if you have such a room, they are not ideal. They have less cabinet size and bass driver surface area vs the A5’s, so I think that alone rules them out. And, the reviewer struggled to get them to sound good, with setup. The A5’s are known to be dead easy to set up.
I also read in another article how different a sealed enclosure design sounds from a ported design. They present the philosophy that ported designs only give the illusion of more “oomph” in the bass around 60Hz, while sacrificing a lot of other things. They claimed people often first ask where the bass is with the sealed design even though the actual bass extension is very, very low. But, after spending time with it, it’s hard to ever go back to a ported design once you start hearing all the benefits.
This dealer I had auditioned the A5’s at sold them, amd won’t have any for months. Another dealer has them and I think I will give them another chance. The store said they have well over 500 hours on them. Hopefully it’s in a bigger, more open room as I think that is also more to my tastes.
@larryi , It’s not easy for me to simply go listen with existing electronics first - these dealers are not local to me. Requires half day of travel, and a hotel to not be rushed. Also listening with other electronics first, which I considered, I’d be afraid of ruling them out but not knowing if it was the speakers or electronics fault. Truth is, I actually really don’t love the sound of most speakers and amps, so finding gear I like is hard. Took me forever before I found an amp I liked; many home demos and there was not a single other amplifier I tested in my price range that I would have been happy living with.
Regarding A5 breakin: I’ve seen more than a few posts, I think on audio aficionado, where they say it was like a light switch turning on after 500 hours. One said he was considering parting with them. But after the bass showed up he had zero complaints and loved them. Several A5 owners were advising a guy to hang on to them as he was 250 hours in and wasn’t hearing the bass. Because of this, I’m hoping that my next audition of these speakers will go better…
@fastfreight thanks for reminding me of the Revel Salon 2’s. This model has been around for a LONG time, but whatever. There is actually a dealer who has these, and they also sell Wilson. Less interested in Wilson as even with my large room, due to the layout I can only have about 30” from the rear of the speaker to the wall - not sure if this is enough.
So this weekend I think I will be travelling with my amp to test the A5’s, the Salon 2’s, and the Wilson’s (Sasha DAW and Yvette).
If I have no luck, I think I’ve tested all the options available in my area and price range: B&W, Sonus Faber, Magico, Audiovector, Wilson, Revel. The only other option is the Monitor Audio PL500 but another Goner who owns these told me he thinks they need 4.5 ft behind them!
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Also, regarding at-home demos, I’m not aware of any dealers in my area that would allow at home demos of speakers of this size.
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@ghdprentice , good advice, thank you. I’ve been in this hobby for decades and only recently realized that sensing musical engagement is the way to test speakers, rather then endless A/B comparisons!
@henry201 , with my posts I aim to share in my experiences and listen to the experiences of others. I’ve received a lot of good advice over the years. Not the sort of advice as in “you should buy this speaker!”. But, more along the lines of “The Monitor Audio PL500’s require 4.5’ behind them to sound their best”. That info is tremendously helpful as it saves me and the dealer lots of time and effort, as it sounds like these speakers won’t work for me. In the case of the M2’s, because of the general feedback hear and also that review I read online cautioning against using them in larger rooms, I’m going to pass on auditioning them. There are many, many opinions, but also excellent advice. Another example - I am having dedicated lines installed soon and my electrician would have installed cable without dedicated green isolates ground cables, if not for advice I received on these boards. Their are obviously tons of subjective opinions and that is also good to listen to for education. In fact, in rare instances, there is consensus of subjective opinions too. This is how I was turned on to the Gryphon Diablo 300. There are probably ten people who love this amp to every one person who doesn’t, and that made me think I needed to check it out. Very glad I did! So that’s the sort of thing I hope to accomplish with my posts!
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@ronboco and others I could use my travel rewards points to fly to Boston to listen to Rockport Avior II with a Diablo 300, at Goodwin’s.
My issue is whether my 30” max from the front wall to the rear of the speaker would be enough. My understanding is that the Avior II require far more than 30” from the front wall to the rear of the speakers.
Those if you with the Avior II - is this correct? Or would 30” do it? My room is on the larger side for sure with a vaulted higher ceiling and there are no side walls anywhere near my speakers.
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@bobbydd you are really making me want to re-test the A5’s at that other dealer. Will do that next weekend, after I test the Wilson Sasha DAW on Saturday (that dealer doesn’t have the Salon 2 on hand so that option is out). Again, I need to travel, it’s a lot of work with my amp!
Hopefully I get a better result with a new room, new placement and with these particular A5’s being fully broken in. I really want to like them but will ultimately see if I can get to a degree of musical engagement. Also less expensive than others on my list so that is appealing.
@bobbydd , what was your breakin experience like? Did you note any lack of bass at first? I will try with the speakers closer to the front wall next time, and play with positioning.
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I’m sure the M2’s are far better than the A5’s (they better be..), but again I’m worried about how they will perform in my larger room. And that dealer’s listening rooms are tiny…
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For the benefit of this thread I have access to test Magicos, B&W, Sonus Faber, Audiovector, Wilson. Willing to travel to listen to Rockport + Diablo 300 because so damn many people have been suggesting this combo, assuming 30’ clearance between front wall and rear of the Avior ii is acceptable. Other than that I don’t really have options to test, so thanks for the other suggestions but it’s not going to be possible.
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@ghdprentice , I’m unfortunately down to the last couple of speakers on the list - I’ve tested B&W 801 D4’s, Sonus Faber Amati’s, Audiovector Arette R6’s, and Magico A5’s.
Of the bunch the Audiovector’s were the only ones that maybe I could live with but not be enthralled by. The Sonus Faber’s were excellent too (I know you have the Amati’s and can see why many enjoy these immensely), however I found them to be a bit mellow when it came to bass and rhythm drive. Lots of bass, but it seemed overly well behaved for my tastes. Probably comes down to choice of music. Salesman claimed that 100% of people who enjoy classical music go with Sonus Faber.
Also the room I tested the B&W’s and Sonus Faber’s in was so, so over treated that I have a hunch that the room was doing weird things to the tonal balance, and it’s very possible my audition of these speakers is not valid. But unfortunately there isn’t much I can do about that. Just walking into the room without music playing you can “sense” the dampening. Too much!
So that leaves the Wilson Sasha DAW, round 2 with a different set of A5’s at a different dealer, and that’s about it, assuming I write off the discounted Magico M2’s due to my larger room size.
Also plan to follow up on the Rockport Avior II travelling to Boston if I can get some sort of confirmation that 30” space behind the speakers may be adequate in my room, which is larger but doesn’t allow for the speakers to be way out from the walL.
As you said I learn a lot in this process. The main one being a better sense of respect for my current system and being relieved I have a general sound I very much enjoy at home. I may not find anything I like at this point, we will see.
As a funny aside - while my wife has been VERY accommodating, I thought I’d better clear the aesthetics of the Wilson’s before wasting my time or the salesman’s time if their wonky looks were an absolute no-go for her. She BARELY approved. Said they look like “robot trash-cans”. But ultimately she said she discussed it with our daughter, and said if I audition them and “if you end up loving them more than me and your daughter, you can get them. As long as we get to pick the colour!”
Can’t say I blame her, I think they look wonky my too but I’m all about the sound!
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@ronboco yes I’ve seen your photos and Avior I’d and it looks awesome. After ruling out all local options I may need to book that trip to Boston using my points…. A bit concerned about catching COVID or now monkeypox while traveling (what next), but only because Canada issued a warning that if you are sick you may be forced into quarantine!
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@leeagc , while there is a really good chance I’d absolutely love the M2’s, between my recent cable upgrades and electrical (house AC) upgrades, adding decent subwoofers would be beyond my budget for sure. Would also need to power them with good cords, and I think I’m at my limit in terms of what I’ve invested in cables!
So unless the M2’s have a shot of working well in my largish and more open space, I don’t think they are a consideration anymore, sadly. Of note however, I never run my system loud. That said, even at lower volumes I can sense the power and potential my current B&W 803 D2 speakers have in my room. Only when driven my my Gryphon though. My current speakers have the same driver configuration as the A5’s and are roughly the same size, but my current speakers are ported and the A5’s are not.
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@larryi , very interesting! I am listening to the A5’s again tomorrow (a different pair that is broken in). I know what you mean about “meaty”, I like meaty too!
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Update: I found a pair of good condition B&W 802 D2’s for sale, from a seller that I could pick the speakers up from on a day trip. Price might be a tad high at $9k USD considering the seller is the second owner.
That said, this may be a great opportunity because:
-I like the sound of my current 803 D2 speakers but am looking for better detail and imaging. In theory the 802 D2’s could retain what I like about my speakers while adding the improvements I’m looking for.
-This approach would save me a ton of cash.
Only odd thing is that the ad says the terminal binding posts have been upgraded “to the WBT version”. Not sure what that is but it sounds okay?
I might really consider this.
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I listened to the Wilson Sasha DAW’s today with my Diablo 300. I thought they sounded really great on most material. I think many would love this pairing; sound was very natural and free-flowing. Imaging and detail was fantastic and the sound wasn’t bright or harsh at all.
But on harder rock with louder guitars they definitely sounded thinner with less mid-bass and lower bass than is comfortable to listen to. Less “meaty” to use the descriptor above. I don’t listen to this type of music often but with my 803 D2’s at home, ALL music sounds fantastic; not just the audiophile friendly material. Maybe that is asking too much of a speaker when things are this highly resolving.
I could just about see myself springing for these speakers as they were perfect in almost all ways, except for loud rock with distorted guitars (Pearl Jam etc). But I’m not sure I think losing the ability to play certain music is worth the clear increase in performance when playing other material. I’m certain many would be over the moon with this pairing. And, while Wilson’s look bizarre and weird in photos, I have to say in person I thought they looked spectacular.
One thing in my mind is that again, as usual, the room had quite a bit of dampening. So, I do wonder if the harder-edged music would sound fuller in my room which has far less dampening and a hardwood floor. Maybe the Wilson’s WOULD be perfect in my room? Again, testing at home is not an option. I’m not even local to the dealer, and returning after purchasing is not an option either as the shop would be specially ordering them (and there’s a 4-5 month wait). Anyone know if harder-edged music would sound fuller with far less dampening in the room? At the dealer one side wall was entirely covered with treatment and all corners were treated. The ceiling too.
These speakers are the closest fit yet. I feel like the Rockports could be a bit more forgiving and “meaty” based on what people are saying, so I might need to wait until I can travel to hear those to make a decision. Or just be happy with my speakers for now! I am finding that the more I upgrade my cabling/electronics, the better my current speakers sound.
Will be trying a broken in pair of A5’s tomorrow. After that, all that’s left on my list will be the Rockports.
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@iluvboxing , it would require the dealer to travel a full day to get the speakers to me in my house. And a full day to bring them back if they didn’t work out. Typically I’ve found dealers are not willing to do this. However, if I were to compensate them for their time and travel costs, maybe they’d be willing? And then I just keep the speakers if they are okay in my space. That would be very costly if I didn’t like them however.
@fastfreight , I’d consider subs but as I mented on the left of my system there is not space for one.
Still really liking the much less costly used but great condition B&W 802 D2’s from a seller near me. I’ve been in contact with the seller and am considering.
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@anotherbob , Monitor Audio PL500 was originally on my list to audition until another Goner who has them told me they felt they needed 4.5ft of clearance from the front wall. I only have 2.5ft between the wall and the rear of the speaker…
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The issue I’m having, is I find my speakers so much more comfortable and enjoyable to listen to than any of the top-tier speakers that I’ve been testing. I’ve come to realize that all I’m looking for is exactly the sound of my current 803 D2 speakers with a touch more detail and better imaging. To me the 802 D2’s seem to fit that bill. I hope! The opportunity to save money is actually just a secondary bonus. Assuming the speakers work out that is.
My goal really is just to bring my speakers up to the level of the rest of my system, especially my Diablo 300. I don’t really need spectacular performance to be happy with my system. I do want spectacular musical engagement however!
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@thyname , I auditioned my Diablo 300 with the 802 D3 series, and found it to be very impressive. Definitely a highly sophisticated loudspeaker. Enough so that I bought my Diablo. However, it was barely meaty enough for my tastes, and I was VERY nervous pulling the trigger on my Diablo in 2019. I thought that my 803 D2’s at home would sound even leaner than the 802 D3’s did. I had conducted at-home tests of many separates, including McIntosh, and my 803’s all sounded harsh on a lot of material. My Gryphon dealer was in a different city and a home demo of the Diablo wasn’t possible, so I was, again, nervous. But when I first connected my new Diablo at home three years ago, to my surprise, I was greeted with a rich, room-filling, detailed and punchy sound that was what I was after.
This is why I now think I really want to upgrade within the two-generations old D2 series.
I recently tested the 801 D4’s with my Diablo 300, at the shop that I bought my Diablo, and the system sounded downright terrible - too much bass for a change, and mids and treble were the opposite of free-flowing. Uptight and ridged. Now I know the 801 is a highly regarded speaker and I’m not judging it. My amp is also highly regarded by most. So the only explanation is that it is a bad pairing, the room was way over dampened (it was), or my tastes are bonkers weird. The 801 D4’s were well broken in according to the sales guy.
When I explained what I liked about the sound of my 803 D2’s tone, he claimed the D2 series especially has a reputation for being more “rock and roll”, in that it was richer and fatter sounding with a more bottom-up tonal balance. He said some guys have a soft spot for D2 because that is the sound they are after. No idea if this is true, but it’s consistent with my limited experience with the 803D2.
So again that is really what I’m hoping for by sticking with the old D2 series! It’s a gamble but less so because it’s so much less money.
To be clear the D3 and D4 series are technically miles ahead of my current 803 D2 speakers, in terms of soundstaging, being able to disappear, etc. But I just can’t listen to them - they stress me out!
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@anotherbob , just one person’s opinion but this interesting review of the PL300 (they loved them) said that the Gryphon Diablo “took the life out” of these speakers. Said the Diablo did much better with Dynaudio and speakers that are harder loads.
just one reviewer’s opinion but another reason not to bother with the very significant effort that it takes for me to crate up my amp and travel for a full day (round trip)….
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Thanks all for the valuable insight as always. To be very clear, I’m not much of a fan of B&W either! I am however a fan of the D2 generation of B&W.
I just read an old thread comparing the 802 D2 to the 802 D3, and the consensus in that thread by multiple posters is exactly in line with my experience with my 802 D2’s and comparing against the D3 line.
That thread also validates what the salesman who set up my 801 D4 audition told me: that the D2 generation is richer and fatter and more bottom up. It seems this is my go-to sound and everything else doesn’t sound right to me including all newer generations of B&W.
I’m sure more options would be available for me if I had room for two subwoofers, but I do not. It amazes me that my preferences in that bottom-up tonal balance is not the norm, at least from what I hear from most speakers!
@erik_squires I don’t doubt that you’ve heard harsh treble with B&W but I can’t say I hear it as being any brighter than the other top tier speakers I’ve auditioned in the past few weeks. Even the leaner sounding D3 and D4 models don’t have bright treble to my ears. Maybe my ears are rolling off the highs as I get older, so it’s not an issue :)
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@ronboco, Sadly I don’t think I will be travelling to hear the Rockports anytime soon. However, they are on my bucket list to listen to. I love Boston and when the time comes I will stop by Goodwin’s to audition the Avior ii’s with the Diablo 300.
It all comes down to tonal balance really. Yes, I want performance in soundstage, imaging, transparency, air, dynamics, engagement, but my tonal preferences comes way ahead in priority. If the balance isn’t right for me, then all of these other attributes don’t matter.
What I’m going to get in the 802 D2’s, I expect from reading other’s comparisons, is that balance I adore with an improvement in all those other areas over my current speakers, even if more recent models do those “other” things better (they do). I’m happy with my decision.
I might reallocate some savings to upgrading my Audioquest Diamond USB cables, which recently I’ve become less enamoured with, when I’ve found that certain generic USB cords sound better in my system…
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Since upgrading my system, my status in life HAS increased and everyone wants to be my friend now! I am self indulging with some Radiohead right at this instant. Nigel Godrich’s production is a miracle on my system…
802 D2 speakers should arrive in 3-ish weeks or so! Can’t wait for more status and self-indulging!
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To close off this thread, my used 802 D2’s arrived, stunningly in actual mint condition. You can’t actually tell that they used. However, one tweeter failed to make a sound. The store luckily had a spare one (brand new!) and rushed it out to me. Installing it was easy.
I was stunned at how different these sounded from my old 803 D2’s considering that they use the identical midrange driver and tweeter. The mid and upper frequencies are crisper and more refined with the 802’s, and are more relaxed. At first I wasn’t sure as I thought maybe there was some “impact” that I’d miss in the upper ranges. In fact, there IS less impact with respect to heavy snare drums and in your face impact. The 803’s have more bass too.
BUT…. Going back to the 803’s they now sound thick and heavy handed. The 802’s are SO much more refined. After a week with them the bass is opening up but they won’t ever get to the levels of the 803’s. The bass however is more detailed and refined with the 802’s.
The 802’s are also easier to listen to in the background. With the 803’s, the more heavy handed delivery makes it more annoying to have on when you aren’t actively listening to them.
Detail, imaging and soundstage have just gone several levels up as expected with the 802’s. Very crisp, easy to listen to, and yet at the same time “big” sounding.
Best of all, the tons balance is spot on for my liking. This was unlike what I found with the 6-7 different high end speakers I tested. I consistently found them to have a harsh midrange with my Diablo 300, which is known to have the opposite of a harsh midrange. But with the 802 D2’s the balance is very, very easy to listen to.
I don’t know if a speaker I’d rather own, for my preferences.
I’m considering whether I want a pair of Rel subs to help support the low end in my very large room with high ceilings.. But the bass is opening up still (I just had dedicated 20A lines installed and I’m noticing a fuller sound as the new line is breaking in).
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