New Dedicated Line - Almost No improvement

Thoughts? Does the dedicated line need it's own breaker box? 

No!

Mike

So I keep trying to share around this and few people want to listen. :D

The heavy gauge and tight connections will reduce voltage drop but also puts you closer to all the noise. They don’t do a thing about that, whatever comes in, and even a great deal of house noise, stays in. The last thing I want really is a perfect conductor.  I don't know why people think the power that comes off the transformers is necessarily ideal... but nope, can't stop them.

But also please keep in mind those EMI meters are as far as I can tell no more than snake oil. No idea if the frequencies they measure have anything to do with hearing.

In any event what I can say is that I won’t plug anything I care about into a wall without Furman and LiFT and SMP. The SMP filters starting around 3kHz, which is a lot better than most EMI/RFI filters.

Wow! I can certainly understand why you’re disappointed. One solution would be a system (conditioner/uninterrupted power supply) which employs a battery such that the AC for your system is generated from the battery’s DC power. Another item you might try is an isolation transformer which will cut down on a lot of the EMI, line noise and spikes/ surges just by virtue of its being a large inductor. Just some thoughts off the top of my head. I know such devices exist, but I can’t recommend specific products.

Good Luck, mean it.

The idea would be to run several dedicated lines one for each or similar pieces of equipment. Dedicate for digital and so on. 

No need for a dedicated box this just adds another break in the line.

Some have told me that stranded wire works best.

I am not a fan of conditioners or similar as they always, in my experience, took away as much as they gave. I do have very good power however.

need to look at your panel, you want if possible to have the dedicated line on the opposite LEG of the panel from motors; AC, Freezer, Fridge…. Start there….

Laynes, in my previous home, I had a 20 amp dedicated line for my 2.1 system amp and a 15 amp dedicated line for my front line equipment and surround amp. I used a Running springs audio power conditioner for the 2.1 amp. I recommend line conditioning. I also had upgraded, audiophile electrical sockets and upgraded power cables. It blackens your backgrounds. That was the main difference i heard. My audiophile pro recommended the Running Springs Audio because it does not limit the flow of electricity—it just corrects it as it flows through it. Many “power purifiers” tend to limit the flow of peak power, causing clipping of dynamics. So read up on HOW your line conditioner works. I would definitely not put two powerful amps on the same conditioner as well, even if it has two plugs, or 8 plugs or whatever.. And don’t put your frontline equipment on the same conditioner as your amp. My two cents, passed along from my trusted pro.

Here's part of an interesting article that was published in the fall 2000 issue of 'The Audio Critic'.  It puts a different spin on line conditioning:

Just about all that needs to be said on this subject has been said by Bryston in
their owner's manuals:

"All Bryston amplifiers contain high-quality, dedicated circuitry in the power supplies to reject RF, line spikes and other power-line problems. Bryston power amplifiers do not require specialized power line conditioners. Plug the amplifier directly into its own wall socket."

What they don't say is that the same is true, more or less, of all well-designed
amplifiers. They may not all be the Brystons' equal in regulation and PSRR, but
if they are any good they can be plugged directly into a wall socket. If you can afford a fancy power conditioner you can also afford a well-designed amplifier, in
which case you don't need the fancy power conditioner. It will do absolutely
nothing for you.

+1 @r042wal 

All true! 

Mike

@r042wal +1! 

EMI meter is useless.

dedicated line ensures your amp has plenty of power and no other equipment on the line challenging the system.  Means that 24/7 you have the power your amp needs.  Maybe at low demand times with nothing else running, the old line was the same or similar.

I installed a new 10 awg line to my system.  I didn't have an obvious problem but now I know I don't have a probelm.  Did it myself for a couple hundred $.

Adding a power condidtioner will generally do more harm than good.

Adding a regenerator will likely be a positive, but will not fix inadequate power.

symptoms of inadequate power supply are weak dynamics and bass.  

You should feel good in knowing that whatever problems your system may have, power isn't one of them.

And get rid of that meter.  ASR has made people thiink that if they can measure a parameter, it must be the right parameter to measure.

Jerry

I’m not an expert but if I were to go down this particular rabbit hole, I would look into battery powered options - potentially using whole house battery power backups from Tesla and others. Just seems a more promising route. 

Thanks All! My amp is a Primaluna Evo 300 integrated with tubes rolled. Power cord is a LessLoss entropic and also use that cord for my phonostage (ModWright 9.0x). 95% of my listening is vinyl. I also have a LessLoss speaker firewall(s).

What I have learned - which may be incorrect - from reading many threads and posts about power/line conditioners is it really depends on how dirty your power is. For someone in an old apartment in NYC with hair dryers being used all around them will have dirtier power than someone in a more suburban or even rural area (depending on those conditions). The house we left was at the foothills of the Appalachian mountains and we had our own transformer. I don't know if that helped or not but as mentioned the EMI reading was pretty low coming out of an outlet which was not a dedicated line. I think (!) this is why power conditioners make a big impact for some and not for others – depending on their system and listening preferences of course.

I've read more positive reviews about the Puritan PSM 156 more than any other (below $5k) and have been considering one of those but wanted to start with clean power to begin with so one isn't needed. Hopefully I would be able to plug in the Evo, phonostage and TT because I can’t stomach buying two of them – one for the Evo and one for the other stuff (and 2 of those would cost more than my Evo). I googled Running Springs Audio and not seeing anything recent for them and the company link was dead (unless a bad link). One of the P156 dealers has a 45 day trial period which is another reason I’m thinking more and more about one of those.

I’ll check out the panel later today and see what other stuff is on that side of the panel but not sure I will be able to do much about that – maybe we can move things around.

Thanks again. If I make any improvements here that are worthwhile I will update this thread.

Just read the last two posts before mine - thanks Jerry and skoc. It sounds like there may not be more to do. As mentioned above I may try a PSM 156 for the 45 day trial and see how that goes. Sinking a lot of $ into the new house though so this isn't at the top of the list (like room treatment is).

Have thought about battery backup and will take another look.

Wow. I'm shocked. (Yes. That's sarcasm.)

No, that’s not sarcasm.  That’s a pun.

There are power requirement "believers" and power requirement skeptics.  I'm on the side of the believers with the following caveats:

1.  You don't need an expensive power cable, just a heavy one.

2.  Many expensive power cables fail at condition1 above.

So I see why some of the skeptics treat expensive cables as snake oil.  On the other hand, some of the skeptics think you can size a power cord based on an amps normal current draw  This ignores dynamics and will generally result in disappointing results.

I recently bought a wonderful amp on the used market that there is a 2 year wait for new.  I was very happy to get it.  The selling included the aftermarket power cord that he had bought to use with it.  I looked it up.  It cost $300 and was 18 gauge.  I wouldn't even use that cord on a 15w streamer.  No wonder he sold the amp.

I googled the power cord that the OP uses and found paragraph after paragraph of flowery prose about it but never mentioned was the gauge of the wire.  Would you buy an amp that had 3 pages of description but wouldn't tell you how many watts per channel?

So my advice is to always use a heavy power cord (I use 10 awg, because they are easy to get).  Whether you use a $50 generic one or a $2000 high end one is up to you but make sure it is at least 12, preferably 10, awg.

Jerry

need to look at your panel, you want if possible to have the dedicated line on the opposite LEG of the panel from motors; AC, Freezer, Fridge…. Start there….

Tomic is correct. Before putting the blame on the power grid, separate the noise producing appliances and devices in your home. Opposite Leg of your audio and placement of those breakers away from audio, ie, audio on top of panel, A/C, fridge at bottom of panel on opposite Leg. This may help.

The problem is dedicated lines will never be free of noise, all electricals share a common ground and neutral.

I had an electrician put in a dedicated line (has it’s own breaker switch) which is 10 gauge and two Furutech GTX-D outlets - Rhodium.

two Furutech GTX-D outlets - Rhodium.

Were the outlets pre burned in? If not they need to be burned in. Search the archives for the amount of time needed.

As for ac noise on the ac mains... It can be caused by many things. You need to hire either an electrician with a Power Quality Analyzer or hire a Power Quality Testing Company to check for excessive harmonic distortion on the AC mains.

.

asking a question here as i have read the above issue several times on here.

when someone says they have noise, what exactly are they hearing ?   is the noise there when the system is on and no music playing?

i will wait for replies before adding more

@carlsbad You nailed it. 

EMI meter is useless.

dedicated line ensures your amp has plenty of power and no other equipment on the line challenging the system.  Means that 24/7 you have the power your amp needs.  Maybe at low demand times with nothing else running, the old line was the same or similar.

Unfortunately, the properly engineered Noise Sniffers, like the one from Isotek/Blue Horizon cost 1K.  Still, read this: https://6moons.com/audioreviews/bluehorizon/1.html

@steakster

thank you for the info on that.

i can say that i definitely don’t have any of that and 

just have dedicated lines and no power conditioning 

@steakster 

and i have read where members get or suggest power conditioning and always wondered what it would do if i added it, and can never get a definite answer.

maybe nothing if there is no issue ?

@riley804 do what I did and order one from a source that has a liberal return policy. I had one in my system for 30 days, no significant improvement and back it went. I also have dedicated lines feeding my system juice. 

LOL...ahhhh, Tampa in the summer. 

Get an Isolation transformer, an upper end Shunyata conditioner or a PSAudio Regenerator like a PP15 or PP20 (adds to the noisefloor of really good AC...but you don't have really good AC). What is your noise level at the box? What is the noise level after midnight? Depending on your home, your in wall wire either rejects noise, is agnostic or it acts like an antenna. I would also consider asking the best local audio shop for their recommended electrician. Its most likely that an excellent electrician familiar with high end audio needs will be able to improve things considerably.

Hi OP, many good thoughts here!  I formerly used an Inakustik 3500p power conditioner.  It did not throttle power and worked great.  I then installed dedicated 20 amp circuits (first two and then I liked them so much I installed another.  I need one duplex for the mono amps, one for the preamp and DAC, then I needed one more for the new streamer, and had other junk so oh well now I have three lines and six outlets.  I removed the power conditioner and found it sounded the same, so it is on the sidelines now.  I guess I am luckier about the noise as my background is dead quiet.  But I do wonder about the Rhodium Furutechs.  My friend got them and did not like them at all.  Sounded harsh and grainy.  I agree they many need burn in.  But how about an easy experiment?  Change one of them to a quality outlet but not Rhodium.  Something like a PS audio outlet (I have them everywhere) or Hubble if you can find one.  They are about 5 for $200 so much less expensive, and grip like nothing else (the PS Audio ones anyway).  These may sound much smoother in your system.  I have a spare outlet pm me if you want to try it!  

I'd add better sound staging and imaging to @steakster list of improvements. I too use isolation transformer type of conditioning  on everything with exception of amps, amps always go straight into their own dedicated 10AWG line.

@laynes In the end you'll just have to try various PC in order to arrive at your own conclusion. I went through an audition period over a couple years and many PC, a variety of effects, transformer based PC best for me. I'd suggest amps never go on pc based on my auditions.

You did not listen to your system before and after the install. Based on my experience and that of many other people dedicated lines always improve the sound. I think you need to believe it very likely your system sounds better than it would have without it. Moving into a new space means everything has changed. Room acoustics power… etc. I wouldn’t pay attention to the meter.

Second, I would while you move is new, have another line put in. Typically one for the amp and one for the rest of the equipment. All direct lines tend to make a big difference.

Next, power conditioner… yes. Very occasionally they don’t do anything… but that is very seldom. After I had my second direct line installed I swapped my 20 year old power conditioner for a high quality power distribution strip (Cardas). That lasted 30 seconds and the power conditioner went back in.

Separate breaker box: No.

It would be great to see your system in its new location. There is a place to put it under your UserID. It is not a fashion show… this is a bunch of audio geeks… so we like to see the equipment and venue.

I agree with @ghdprentice including the adding of another line (same length cable as the others).

Regarding power conditioners, I have (2) 20A dedicated lines and use power conditioning to lower the noise-floor. I live in an old neighborhood in Philly. EquiCore + DeepCore have been very effective. A very important point about power conditioners is not to use them for your amp, unless specifically designed for high-current components. The sonics of an amp can be affected. Only my preamp and sources are plugged into mine.

@laynes , I did not see anywhere where you indicated you have a specific noise issue that you hear?  I disagree with Steakster in terms of what electrical noise will sound like in an all analog system. Noise does not enter an all analog system and cause the issues that were described. If you are hearing nothing in silent passages with an all analog system, then you do not have a power issue. Power noise does not create distortion in an all analog system. It creates noise that is not correlated to the signal.

erik makes a good point. A dedicated line does not prevent noise that appears on your electrical box from getting to your equipment. All those items on their own dedicated lines, which is most of the high power are not helped by a dedicated line. They have benefit when to avoid items like dimmers.

I see many people suggesting multiple dedicated lines. This is more often than not a bad idea. The most important connection for a single piece of equipment is normally line and neutral. The most important connection when several pieces of equipment are hooked together is the ground connection. If you run multiple dedicated lines with separate grounds you have just made grounds loops worse.

You are running a tube integrated, so most of your connections are a single box. It is a good brand, likely with a well designed power supply. If you can't can't hear noise that appears to be power related when silent, then it is unlikely you have a power issue. If the AC is on, the sound noise of the AC is probably much worse than electrical noise.

I do not know what the obsession is with Rhodium in connectors. Audiophiles have some crazy ideas about how things work. If it was better, the military\aerospace would use it in all their connectors. I started out working on military\aerospace electronics. Rhodium is rarely used as a surface material. There are two properties you typically want in a connector interface material. Corrosion/oxidation properties are good, and it is malleable so that is maximizes the contact surface lowering resistance. Two other properties to consider are self lubrication (related to malleability) and wear resistance and impact resistance. You will notice I did not says electrical resistance. The coatings are so thin, 10-200um, that conductivity does not matter much. For any low power connection, gold is a great choice. High corrosion resistance, malleable, some self lubrication. For most power connections, silver is a good choice. Malleable, self lubricating, good corrosion resistance. Only concern is it oxidizes but that oxide is very thin and conductive. Connector wiping action removes typically. Palladium is the next used. It is corrosion resistant, but hard. The hardness in this case is a plus as it can be used when connector ends may be easily damaged. Alloys are also good in arcing conditions (anywhere you plug in live). Rhodium was used in one and only one application. Very rough service, i.e. field items where the contacts could be easily scratched/damaged. If I remember it was always plated on nickel, not for metal diffusion, but because it is brittle and could literally crack off.  There is nothing about a connection anywhere in audio where Rhodium makes sense.

I hope you fix your noise issue if you have it. Erik seems to be on a good low cost path.

We had our home built in Tampa and I could see the inexpensive electrical wire used.   Asked the builder about a dedicated line and had never done one and refered me to an electrician.  He asked if I was going to keep a large server needing dedicated power.  When I mentioned audio, he laughed and said to keep my money.  If you aren’t worried about voltage drop when the ac or refrigerator cycles, your at the mercy of the power grid.

OP make sure the sparky that did the work used a full space breaker, not a tandem breaker. You can Goggle that to see the difference, if you were out of empty spaces he or she may have had to us a tandem or split breaker in which case you could be tied partially to another circuit, best!

When I mentioned audio, he laughed and said to keep my money.  If you aren’t worried about voltage drop when the ac or refrigerator cycles, your at the mercy of the power grid.

Get a new electrician. As stated in this thread, there's more to it than the power grid. I guess he thinks it's ok to daisy-chain your audio system on the A/C and refrigerator line.

Wow, great replies – and even more varying opinions than I thought there would be. My hobby (although it is fading a bit I must admit) is racing my car and when I first started I had lots of questions and would get a similar amount of different replies. I’ll do now what I did then – read them all and consider them all, do more research and do what I think will apply the most to my situation and be the most beneficial with the budget at hand (that is unclear after spending a whole lot over the past 6 weeks on the new house) and limited time I have to listen - that is for another thread but hifi room is the living room and is open to the rest of the house and wife really doesn’t like loud anything or more importantly what she perceives to be loud. I’m looking forward to her finding her new hair salon, yoga studio etc. which is the only time I can go much above 70 db (if that) for any length of time. In the old house I had the basement and even though it wasn’t sound proofed well I could listen to music hours on end w/o issue. I told her I need to start home shopping for a second home nearby so I can listen to my stereo. Anyway….

Good point on the full space vs. tandem breaker (and I have no idea what those are but will google). The stereo took the last available breaker in the box so probably a tandem or split. This is a good time to learn more about this and will go down this road to see what the deal is. Thanks bikeboy.

Tennisdoc – Even though I had clean power in my old house it was inconsistent and we had brownouts often. I kept all of my electronics on these: https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B000FBK3QK/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&th=1 , which, on a youtube vid somewhere saw it had a clean sinewave, esp compared to other UPS’s. The (apparently worthless) EMI meter was only 2 points worse but did take some of the sparkle out of listening so I started unplugging all my gear (not much really) when I stopped a listening session and plug in when started back up the next day or so. Maybe there is a lesson there. Someone mentioned whole house battery back up in this thread (vs a generator which I had at the last house which I’m pretty sure was dirty power but also there was a 20 second delay) so I’ll also look at that but that power could be not-so-great also. hmmm.

Theaudioamp – good questions. I have done very little listening so far – mostly because of the wife-factor but also time – I haven’t had time to set up my cart yet so only have CDs. I have a Ruby K1 which I read is a good cd player but my vinyl blows away 90% of my CDs. I did just listen to Murder by Numbers (just found out this song was never released on vinyl) fairly loud so I could pay attention. I should have picked a different song or CD rather because there aren’t any extended quiet sections (silent passages). I’ll have to report back after I mount and align my cart and then will put on the Wall which has lots of quiet time. Right now I’m prepping the room as much as possible…doing what I can.

I didn’t search out the Rhodium – I just searched for outlets with good reviews. Maybe not so great but IIRC at $250 ea. I doubt I will be replacing them.

GHD – I’ll post some pics tomorrow in userID. Still have to unpack all of my records and cds (except a few), curtains just came today (not hung – 3 glass sliding doors on the front wall) and although I have a rug pad, I’m still waiting on the rug. After I get power straight (and maybe there isn’t much to do) I will start work on room treatment but also getting resistance from wife there also. Sigh. There is an echo, echo, echo here w/ an open floor plan and tile floors – and sliding glass doors.

I have read that more than a few people were able to plug their amps into their Puritan 156 so again with the 45 day trial period I think I may give it a shot.

I’ll do more research on what I have now in the breaker box/line and then will think about another line. As mentioned above the hifi outlets (2) were the last breaker anyway. However, the pool is getting a heater in a few months so that will have to go somewhere.

Sorry if I didn’t address everyone’s posts. I’ve read them all and will again – and again.

@laynes

How many hours do you have on the outlets???

One of many from the Agon archives...

Furutech GTX NCF receptacle break in, how long

About 35 minutes on the outlets - thanks will check it out.

Posted a few pics in virtual systems for those interested. Again, still very much setting up the room as you can see. Thanks.

@laynes 

Just to review; you have one dedicated 20A line to the service panel. The audio system used the last available breaker (if it's one line, the electrician would have used a standard breaker). Look at the panel, are there any breakers for high-current appliances close to the audio breaker? And are there any on the same Leg (phase) as your audio? Phase will usually be indicated as A or B. Breakers 1,3,5 would be phase A. Breakers 2,4,6 are phase B (in most situations).

Heavy-duty appliances such as A/C, fridge, washer will introduce noise back onto the mains.

A completely different way......and a much better way.....sonically....is to get off the frickin grid........Check this out:

http://tweakaudio.com/EVS-2/Inverter_Power.html

I will have more info in a day or so.....but this is mindblowing........The same great sound day and night......way better sound than you ever imagined......and you can buy a 2200 watt inverter for a little over $300.....then some batteries and charger and you will be in heaven.....of course, there is more......as described.

Any serious audio geek owns a home with a stream you can dam up for your own hydro power...a small nuclear plant also works but be wary of sensitive neighbors.

Juice is juice.  As long as you get the noise off the line.

Seems to me that with rechargeable batteries abundant now from puny right up to car size, the way to go is to use battery power.  Choose battery(ies) suitably rated to power your components, charge them in system downtime and disconnect charging while listening.  A car-size battery easily has the capacity and punch to run my Krell KRs200s.  Eureka.  All noise gone, no need for dedicated power lines, fancy power conditioners $15,000 power cords.

Why not?

@laynes 

Have the grounding in your house checked.

I see people recommending adding 2 dedicated lines, one for amp and one for evrything else. If you do that, there is one more thing you can do that gives you opportunity. 

Your home has 2 legs of 120V power, generally one red and one black.  (Sometimes electricians aren't careful and they can get mixed up, since they are identical wrt 120V power).   But if you run one leg off of red and one off black, then you have 240V between them for running a european amp.  the great thing about that is that at 240V, the current is half that it would be at 120V for the same power.  Thus your wire is effectively larger.

What I did was just run 240V power to my audio wall.  I pulled 120V off the red leg for one set of 3 hospital grade outlets and 120V off the black leg for the other set of outlets.  I took the red and black to make a 240V outlet for my european amp (an Ayon).  

Those of you who understand electrical  (not many on this forum) may be asking yourself what about the neutral?  Indeed the neutral wire is shared between both legs but I don't find that to be a problem.  If the shared neutral concerns you then run 10-4 plus g instead of 10-3 and you can have seperate neutrals.

Jerry

@clearthinker You must be big on gedanken experiments--consistent with your name.   I'm pretty sure you haven't implemented what you suggest.  If you have, I'd love to hear how you solved the many problems you would have to overcome.  --Jerry

Isn't it against code to put 240V outlets in most rooms in the home? If so a good electrician won't do that for you.

I have my doubts a cheap sine wave inverter will be noise free. That's a giant switch mode power supply. Audiophiles are obsessed with perfect AC sine waves. It makes no sense.

My system sounds exactly the same at any time of the day when I am on holidays. When I am not it swings with my mood.

@carlsbad    Don't be so negative.  With most amps engineered to run on AC, one issue is the need to convert from DC. But apart from this, I doubt there would be difficult problems once suitable batteries are sourced.  Far less difficult than getting rid of noise on the mains.  And less costly probably.

But no I haven't implemented.  I've thought about it and am doing so more currently (sorry!).  Dedicated battery power supplies for pre-amps and phono amps have been around for years.  Running only them certainly improves SQ by eliminating noise on the mains at a stroke.  Certainly turntables can and some do run on battery supplies although, unlike some, I very much doubt mains noise finds its way to the stylus.

Having wrought some big improvement already at cheap cost, that leaves us with power amps.  I have read of powering single-ended flea-power valve amps on batteries, reporting positive results. But up to now running my big Class A Krells has put me off researching battery power because suitable batteries have not been in the mainstream.  But now I am guessing they are readily available given booming power tool and car applications  No-one could deny a car battery could easily run a big amplifier.  With my Krells it is noticeable the big draw is on switch on when the big capacitors are filled within a few seconds.  That dims the room lighting momentarily.  But once full, the topping up process draws a lot less amps.

@carlsbad  you have strengthened my resolve to start serious work.  Eliminating mains noise is certainly a very attractive proposition.

laynes OP

7 posts

07-27-2022 at 10:55pm

About 35 minutes on the outlets - thanks will check it out.

@laynes

If I were you I would get the outlets burned in first before spinning your wheels looking for possible AC mains power problems.

If you only use your audio equipment AC loads to burn in the outlets it could take a year, or more to burn them in... You need to connect a load(s) to the two outlets 24/7 for at least a week or two. You need a load that draws some current. At least 3 or 4 amps if possible. The greater the connected current load the better.

.

@laynes,

See article below:

Mike