New Dedicated Line - Almost No improvement

Re: my often mentioned dedicated line which I love more than I should at my age.

I had pros install a new master switch panel/breakers along with my new line. The codes have changed so much since my place was built that they had to update all the way back to the next split. I'm just beginning to understand why they left the back wall of my house relatively festooned with big new copper decorations!

Ground rules! 😀🙄

@lloydc My BPT 3.5 Sig., a toroid only hummed when I had over voltage (122-125v), built c core bucking transformer to cure the over voltage, no excessive hum. Since upgrades by electric provider, now provides 119-121v 24/7 no hum from  transformers in any of my equipment.

Be aware that large isolation transformers hum.  I got rid of mine for that reason alone - could not keep it in the listening room.  I understand that they may not be so objectionable if based on a toroid, but that those have other limitations.

I used the 25 ft long/deep iron drill pipe for my water well.

I would guess you have a good low resistance grounding electrode. I wouldn't be be surprised if it measures 5 ohms or less.

A practical guide to earth resistance testing

 

 

B

I used 1/2 or 5/8 solid copper pipe (not an iron/copper grounding rod., 6 feet long. We drilled straight down, hammered the rod in and then filled the hole with a high-clay content soil.

Is the grounding electrode only 6 ft deep in the earth? If so unless it rains a lot and soil moisture content is high you have a poor high resistance ground, imo...

I hope this is not the only earth connection for your electrical service. The System Ground, Grounding Electrode System, is mainly for lightning protection. It also somewhat protects the electrical service from a high voltage fault of the high voltage power line onto the low voltage secondary side of the power transformer from entering your house. The lower the resistance of the Grounding Electrode System the better. IEEE recommends 5 ohms or less.

Example of grounding electrode depths in the earth. (Climate Change and droughts would make things worse)

http://www.cpccorp.com/deep.htm

https://droughtmonitor.unl.edu/

A practical guide to earth resistance testing

You are at the mercy of the people who designed your equipment @papafrgog.

@lowrider57   I think the grounding issue has assumed a life of its own, per the above comments.  I used 1/2 or 5/8 solid copper pipe (not an iron/copper grounding rod., 6 feet long. We drilled straight down, hammered the rod in and then filled the hole with a high-clay content soil. Was told this clay compound would help with grounding and conductivity. I was skeptical, but for the additional $15, I wasn't going to argue that point.  

My point really is there are many factors to consider with stable, clean power to the audio room. I didn't want to inadvertently omit one thing that might render all the other work wasted.  And as pointed out, we are still at the mercy of the grid.

@jea48 , while I agree in principle that an earth ground connection is generally not the cause of noise, it is not always not the cause, and when one considers emitted EMI, it can be critical. The earth ground connection (in theory) holds the metal in the equipment, cable shields, etc. to the same potential as earth, but we can call it a ground plane. Now as noted, that connection is more than just cable resistance, it is also impedance. If you remove the earth ground connection, then all the metal floats, and it floats in comparison to earth ground, which means you have a capacitor to earth ground and a "new" path for EMI that you would not have if connected to earth ground. This will never be an issue at analog audio frequencies, but it can be an issue at higher frequencies even with the higher impedance to earth ground.

 

You know what is really foolish? Those ground boxes filled with dirt that don't connect to anything.

My ground rod is bigger than your ground rod.😁 Fact. In the interest of getting the best, most consistent ground, I used the 25 ft long/deep iron drill pipe for my water well. Damned thing is very thick, and hard to drill a hole for the bolt used to connect the copper wire to. Now it is a done deal, and I don’t worry about having a good enough AC ground for my panel.

 And yes, it is only a couple of feet from the electrical panel.

Fact!
Mother earth does not possess some magical mystical power that sucks nasties from an audio system.


Grounding Myths

"Electromagnetic Compatibility Engineering" by Henry Ott

3.1.7 Grounding Myths

More myths exist relating to the field of grounding than any other area of electrical engineering. The more common of these are as follows:

1. The earth is a low-impedance path for ground current. False, the impedance of the earth is orders of magnitude greater than the impedance of a copper conductor.

2. The earth is an equipotential. False, this is clearly not true by the result of (1 above).

3. The impedance of a conductor is determined by its resistance. False, what happened to the concept of inductive reactance?

4. To operate with low noise, a circuit or system must be connected to an earth ground. False, because airplanes, satellites, cars and battery powered laptop computers all operate fine without a ground connection. As a mater of fact, an earth ground is more likely to be the cause of noise problem. More electronic system noise problems are resolved by removing (or isolating) a circuit from earth ground than by connecting it to earth ground.

5. To reduce noise, an electronic system should be connected to a separate “quiet ground” by using a separate, isolated ground rod. False, in addition to being untrue, this approach is dangerous and violates the requirements of the NEC (electrical code/rules).

6. An earth ground is unidirectional, with current only flowing into the ground. False, because current must flow in loops, any current that flows into the ground must also flow out of the ground somewhere else.

7. An isolated AC power receptacle is not grounded. False, the term “isolated” refers only to the method by which a receptacle is grounded, not if it is grounded.

8. A system designer can name ground conductors by the type of the current that they should carry (i.e., signal, power, lightning, digital, analog, quiet, noisy, etc.), and the electrons will comply and only flow in the appropriately designated conductors. Obviously false."

Henry W. Ott

From Bill Whitlock,  (https://www.prosoundweb.com/author/bill-whitlock/)

 

"In reality, most of the reports of fantastic noise reduction attributed to earth ground rods are actually the result of the separation of various ground wires and their connection to a single point. It is the separation of the ground current paths that eliminates the common-impedance coupling of noise from noisy equipment into quiet equipment. It is extremely rare for an additional earth ground connection to solve a noise problem."

If you say you have a dedicated line and are getting noise from the AC then you dont have a true dedicated line. A true dedicated has to be brought in independent from the street. At the very least you are sharing a ground on your dedicated line.

A true dedicated has to be brought in independent from the street.

Good luck getting that...

 

At the very least you are sharing a ground on your dedicated line.

Per code the EGC (Equipment Grounding Conductor) of a branch circuit shall be ran in the same conduit or cable and connect the equipment ground bus in the same panel the branch circuit originates.

Exception, when a branch circuit is fed from a subpanel where an isolated ground receptacle is used an insulated isolated ground EGC can be extended and connected to the main electrical panel equipment ground bus.

No dedicated isolated ground electrodes allowed... They serve no purpose and can be electrically dangerous to life.

An Auxiliary ground rod is acceptable per NEC provided it is connected to the EGC of the branch circuit wiring. (NEC 250.54)

.

I recently had my service replaced. A solid copper rod was driven about 5 ft deep into the ground outside.

5/8" x 8ft is the minimum per code.

Driven Grounding Electrodes: Understanding what they are ...

 

I recently had my service replaced. A solid copper rod was driven about 5 ft deep into the ground outside. This was wired to the buss bars in the panel for my house. I have seen grids buried in the ground as well. The rod that was driven into the ground is a standard installation by code.

@papafrgog

don’t underestimate the value a good ground. BIG FACTOR.

Can you elaborate on the grounding in your system? Was the electrician experienced with installing dedicated lines for an audio system?

I have 2 dedicated 20 amp 14ga copper lines to my audio equipment.  Transparent Audio power conditioning, Furutech duplex outlets in our new home. A giant difference to me.

My electrical contractor also paid attention to the number of motors on the circuit and box and don't underestimate the value a good ground. BIG FACTOR.

Those are my experiences FWIW

 

@sns Thanks for understanding humor when you see it.  Today, many have NO sense of humor at all.  I guess I feel sorry for them...

Look, other than attending a live show, ANY system is going to be different from that show, and, given the new "digital" age, one wonders why people complained about compression in the old days when today, every bit can be manipulated in the mix-down studio.

I totally get why people seek the last bit of perfection from their systems, and noise is probably an issue in some places.  Methinks one should enjoy the music and buy the best stuff that works IN YOUR ROOM.

We sold lots of Audio Research/Magnepan systems in the day.  Still have not heard anything that is better, but to each his own.  This is why we carried and sold 50 different lines of products.

Cheers!

 

Well, yes these not true dedicated line in the sense of providing your own independent ac line, even a line run from pole wouldn't be truly dedicated as sharing with everyone else on that trunk line.

 

@richopp takes this thing to extreme, funny! But yeah, we'd have to go to extremes to eliminate all noise on ac lines. Some, I included,  have tried batteries for provision of audio power, but even this has limitations in the sense of noisy inverters.

I suggest you spend another several million and put up your own mini nuclear reactor for YOUR house.  That way, you can run a single line for EACH outlet--if you still use outlets...I would connect DIRECTLY to the reactor, myself, but that's just me--and that way you will have NO NOISE and be sitting center front at every mix-down studio where your recordings are "created" from whatever the musicians play that day from wherever they are playing.

Oh, spend another million or so on patch cords.  They really matter as well.

Cheers!

@jea48 

Oh, ok. I thought I got my legs mixed up. (electrician's joke??)

Thanks Jim.

 @lowrider57 

If I provided misleading information, I apologize, it was very late. 

 I didn't read anything in your post that was misleading.

Best regards,

Jim

.

If you say you have a dedicated line and are getting noise from the AC then you dont have a true dedicated line. A true dedicated has to be brought in independent from the street. At the very least you are sharing a ground on your dedicated line.

That’s true, but it has to meet code. It would be so nice to have an extra drop from the power company.

Maybe that BX wire is just keeping the EMI in and allowing it to transfer to the ground?

@anzaanimalclinic, Your welcome!

I have found separating the digital and analog front end gear beneficial.

I agree 100%! I have four dedicated lines, one for each monoblock amp, one for analog and one for digital. All four dedicated lines use BX/AC cable. I prefer the BX with metal boxes for better shielding. See reference below:

Mike

 

If you say you have a dedicated line and are getting noise from the AC then you dont have a true dedicated line.  A true dedicated has to be brought in independent from the street.  At the very least you are sharing a ground on your dedicated line.

@ditusa Great reference, much appreciated.

I ran 3 dedicated lines a few years ago. They are probably 12 g.  I haven't patched the drywall yet as I have had a lingering doubt I did it right.  My electrician did not have heavier wire and he struggled to pass the 12 gage in the walls.  I think I need to call him back out to replace add 2 more lines for each of my mono amps and maybe my tube pre amp.

I have found separating the digital and analog front end gear beneficial.  I have 2 mono amps on the 3rd line.

I use a PS power regenerator on the digital, a Shunyata Denali on the analog and the amps are plugged into a Furutech outlet.

I have been eyeing the PSM156, I was unaware of the trial.  Its hard to know what is snake oil and what works.  I tried an Akiko Corelli and it worked so well I bought 2 more.  I have one on each front end line and the third on the outlet in the PS Audio P10 that the music server uses.  My Linn LP12 has such a noisy power supply I had to take it off the dedicated lines and Shunyata conditioner.  The same for the SMPS for a pair of REF longbows.  The SMPS's totally polluted the PS Audio P10.  They are now polluting the non dedicated house lines.

I have a dozen PS Audio Noise Harvesters.  Those little things actually help.  I have them on the shared outlets in the conditioner and regenerator.

 

The wire didn't break in @jwmorris , you did.

 

 

@jea48 

Yes, that's how my panel looks.

L1 >> brk #1 ...... brk #2

L2 >> brk #3 ....... brk #4

L1 >> brk #5 ....... brk #6

L2 >> brk #7 ....... brk #8

L1 >> brk #9 ....... brk #10

L2 >> brk #11 ..... brk #12

L1 >> brk #13 .... brk #14

And so on down each side of the panel.

If I provided misleading information, I apologize, it was very late. 

 I didn't realise breaker space #39 and breaker space #40 share the same breaker connecting bus tie. Thanks for the correction.

Jim

I agree with giving the system more time. I had a new sub panel, wiring etc installed in my basement while we were in the process of finishing it. I took the system I had been listening to for months and moved it into the basement and it sounded horrible. After more play time the system settled in a sounded good again. Wire break in may not make sense on paper but my experience says it is real. Good luck!

Example:

Courtesy of Glen B, (AA member)

https://www.audioasylum.com/messages/tweaks/146113/re-yes

Here is a photo of the interior of a main lug only panel. Note the breaker connecting bus tie for each each breaker space.

Siemens PN3048L1125C PN Series 125 Amp 30-Space ...

 

From an above post of mine.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~

As for the layout of the branch circuit breakers in an electrical panel:

Line 1 and Line 2 alternate with one another down each side of the electrical panel.

Odd breaker numbers are on the left side. Even breaker numbers on the right side. If you look closely at the breakers metal panel dead front you should see the numbers. Usually stamped into the metal. If you can’t see them here is how the breakers are numbered. (Note: For standard sized 1" single pole breakers. A 2 pole breaker takes up two 1" spaces.)

 

L1 = Line 1. (Leg, Bus)

L2 = Line 2. (Leg, Bus)

brk = breaker. (Or unused breaker space.)

 

L1 >> brk #1 ...... brk #2

L2 >> brk #3 ....... brk #4

L1 >> brk #5 ....... brk #6

L2 >> brk #7 ....... brk #8

L1 >> brk #9 ....... brk #10

L2 >> brk #11 ..... brk #12

L1 >> brk #13 .... brk #14

And so on down each side of the panel.

Note breaker space #39 and breaker space #40 share the same breaker connecting bus tie. Both 39 and 40 are connected to Line 2 bus, Leg.

Jim

Electricians when installing a panel try to even the load on each Leg. IOW, They’re trying to achieve close to equal current-draw on each leg. When installing an audio system on one leg, some sacrifices have to be made, such as moving a high amperage appliance which may cause noise to the opposite leg as the audio circuit.

@laynes 

The heater (or furnace) requires a dual-core breaker when current is 30A or higher. It takes up two breaker positions and uses both Legs of the electrical service.

15 & 20V standard breakers are used in lower current situations.

You listed one Leg in your panel, can you list the other phase?

Hi cdc, I discussed this some in this post: "Theaudioamp – good questions. I have done very little listening so far – mostly because of the wife-factor but also time – I haven’t had time to set up my cart yet so only have CDs. I have a Ruby K1 which I read is a good cd player but my vinyl blows away 90% of my CDs. I did just listen to Murder by Numbers (just found out this song was never released on vinyl) fairly loud so I could pay attention. I should have picked a different song or CD rather because there aren’t any extended quiet sections (silent passages). I’ll have to report back after I mount and align my cart and then will put on the Wall which has lots of quiet time. Right now I’m prepping the room as much as possible…doing what I can."

I just ordered some Focal Stellias which will be here later next week and hopefully I will have time to mount my cart and do some serious listening.

On that note, I haven't had much time to investigate some of the great suggestions in this thread but wanted to give this info which is my panel box. I was going to uplaod a pic but don't see how that is possible here w/o a link.

Anyway here is the list of stuff on the right side:

39. Stereo

37. Garage USBs (never use these)

33 & 31, Mini split (garage a/c which I only run when I'm in the garage)

29 clothes washer

27, mbr something or other

25 mbr powder room

23 mbr, something or other

21 DR and LR

19 garage door openers

17 master bath and study 

15 utility room and spare brs 2 & 3

13, outlets for garage, outdoor and pool

11 heat

9 heat

7 range

5 range

3 air

1 I think it says "conditioner Leed 20-A"

I'm not sure why heat has 2 switches and air has 1. We are in Tampa and have a single hvac unit. As mentioned earier the EMI reader jumps 100 points when the a/c is running so I'm thinking to maybe move the stereo switch to the other side (?). The other side has the washer and dryer but those can be stopped while listening (a/c cannot down here). Also the hot water heater is on the otehr side. Maybe I should move some of these aroudn so the bigger draws are on one side and the stereo switch is on the side of the smaller draws? 

The electrian will be here on Weds for other stuff but by then I will have a list of questions for him from the posts here and hopefully we can come up with somehing. 

But if not - as pointed out - an EMI reading is apparently worthless and I may not even notice the sound. We've only been here 3 weeks and still unpacking so have had little free time - but that should change some in the next few weeks when all these other projects and unpacking. is finsihed. 

 

 

 

laynes

Your measurements are worse but you do not mention if the sound is worse.

@nonoise 

 

+1

Wow… lots of unhelpful techno babble.

What fresh hell is this? 
Have you been here before?
How many times?
Only here since yesterday and 33 posts.
A lot of similarities with past and banned member(s).
Just saying....

All the best,
Nonoise

At higher frequencies, where inductance dominates, using thicker wire has virtually noeffect on impedance. At 1 MHz, replacing the #12 wire with a ½” solid copper rod has little effect (as noted in the plot).

• Misleading and erroneous in the framework of the discussion. For a single wire, in free space, this is true. However, we don't use wires in free space, we use conductors. For a given insulation thickness, increasing wire diameter reduces inductance by increasing area between the two wires. For instance, 2mm wire, with 1mm insulation (4mm on centers) would have about 50uH/meter inductance. If I increase the diameter to 10mm, but keep the same insulation thickness, the inductance

Conduit Transformer (Voltage is directly proportional to load current, wire length, and rate of change in current or ∆I/∆t)

• For a transformer company, I would have hoped they understood transformers better. If you look at their drawing, the output of the transformer is 1.5K in series into a volt-meter, with a 2.2nF load. Essentially that is an open circuit. If it is a transformer, the open loop output voltage of a transformer is independent of the frequency. i.e. in their experiment, the output voltage should not have changed with frequency. If they had shorted the output (very low resistance), then the output voltage would be affected by frequency. They didn't, so their experimental results do not match their proposed transformer model.
• What would match their model? -- parasitic capacitance. I expect there are aspects of both. Either way, their experiment is flawed which means any conclusions are suspect.

 

They assign the source of all noise to this "conduit transformer" and discuss lamp dimmers. The also say leakage current are very small as a partial justification of this. Use a 2.2nF capacitor as an example

• At 60Hz, impedance = 1.2M ohm
• at 70KHz, impedance = 1000 ohms

When you swing 120V (or 220) with 1000 ohms impedance, you can no longer claim low leakage current. Parasitic capacitance provides a nice path for noise in the line/neutral to get into the ground.

• As a point of discussion, a dimmer can also generate audible noise in an audio device with no ground connection.
• 90 degree conduction angle for a dimmer is 50% voltage, not 50% brightness. I think it is closer to 10%. Yes, I am being intentionally pedantic.

For most cord connected equipment, 2 or 3 prong, the leakage limit is 0.5mA and 0.75mA, but again, that is pedantic to the discussion. I am just illustrating a trend.

Even installing a “cheater” (3-to-2 prong adapter) or cutting off a safety ground pin from one of the power cords would still leave as much as 3.5 mA flowing in the interface cable ... that’s 10 times the current of the previous 2-prong example, so a serious noise problem would still exist ... as well as a much more serious safety hazard!

• Both unlikely to due real limits on leakage in 3 prong audio equipment, and practically wrong as well. How many ground loops have been eliminated by clipping a ground pin? The reason is the configuration of EMI filter capacitors and typical parasitics causing case ground to now be equipotential between line/neutral and little current to flow through the capacitors into chassis ground. However, don't disconnect the safety ground. It is a bad idea.

Zcm tolerance of real-world drivers typically determined by ± 5%
series resistors and ± 20% (or worse) coupling capacitors

• Appropriate for this point is that the tolerance of the coupling capacitors is only important w.r.t. the impedance at the frequency of interest. i.e. in audio, at 60Hz, we would typically ensure the capacitance is large enough, so that the impedance is low enough that tolerance is not a significant factor. 20% of 0 is still 0 (exaggerating obviously).

Strange that cable manufacturers still don’t “get it” ... they seem to think “floobydust” is more important.

• I don't have any issue with this. I just think it is funny. I like them even if I disagree with some of what they say. I think the discussion on cables is really good. I think most cable vendors could learn something from it.

Keep cables short and do not coil the excess

• The reason for not coiling is due to coupling of external magnetic fields into the cable. While obviously this is 100% true for a single wire, a coiled cable is a common mode inductor so will reject most external magnetic fields.
• I will give the benefit of the doubt for any cable with a double terminated shield as that would be worse coiled.

 

Page 150

• This absolutely could provide benefit. It all comes down to implementation. If a short RCA is used between the single ended equipment and the transformer, then effectively there is no ground voltage on the single ended side to cause a ground loop noise issue even if high current flows in the ground.

Page 202

• While technically true, in most equipment, the capacitors are not parasitic but intentional for emi and noise.

 

Page 211

• Accuses others of fear mongering while doing some himself. Any half decent designed equipment has ESD and similar protection on I/O lines. Since the I/O lines are high impedance w.r.t. ground, the protection circuitry limits the excursion for the required amount of time.

Page 212

• Series suppressors do dump current into the safety ground, they just do not dump as much. Simple logic should reveal that. If the inductor is connected to an open circuit, the full voltage is transmitted. Hence there must be a low impedance path for the current.

but to the person who put on the non-peer reviewed presentation to the AES that was linked. There are absolutely some questionable things in that presentation that would not stand up to scrutiny.

@theaudioamp 

Please point out the questionable things.

Jim

.

@theaudioamp You’re new here. What an insulting statement.

And you don’t read well. My comment was not to the person who posted the link, obviously, but to the person who put on the non-peer reviewed presentation to the AES that was linked. There are absolutely some questionable things in that presentation that would not stand up to scrutiny. Questioning the accuracy of what someone links to is not rude, and being here for a long time does not make your posts any more accurate than anyone else and immune to criticism. This is not a professional forum where the accuracy of someone’s posts are validated by equally qualified people.

Jim, ( @lowrider57 ) ,

Thanks for the kind words.

Jim

.

questionable interpretations of how things work

@theaudioamp You're new here. What an insulting statement.

@jea48 's knowledge and advice is above reproach. Jim's interest and expertise has helped solve the issues of many members over the years. In order to troubleshoot, one must ask questions.

I wholeheartedly agree that the receptacles have not had breakin time. A Rhodium duplex takes 200 to 400hrs. of run-in time. Manufacturers such as Furutech state this requirement.

@tomic601 so true. 

When I had a dedicated line installed, my system improved slowly over the first 30 days or so of breakin. After that . . . sweet tunes whatever the cause.

all roads lead to the panel and the quality of the ground….. so few audiophiles….understand this…very close to FREE improvement…..

jim

A good presentation @jea48 but not without questionable recommendations and some questionable interpretations of how things work, but still vastly better and debunking so much of what gets posted.

@laynes

I have a few questions before you call the electrician out to your home and start paying him his hourly rate. Time = money...

1) What year was the house built?

2) Has the electrical service ever been updated?

3) Is the power lines feeding the house ran overhead or buried underground in the earth?

4) How big, amps, is the electrical service? (Look at the main breaker there will be a number usually found on the breaker handle. Typically 100 or 200.)

5) What brand is the electrical panel? Example, Square D, Siemens, GE, ITE, ect.

6) Where is the main electrical panel located? Outdoors on the house next to the electric meter? In an attached garage? Inside the house? Is the main breaker located in the main electrical panel or outdoors next to the electric meter?

 

~ ~ ~ ~ ~

As for the layout of the branch circuit breakers in an electrical panel:

Line 1 and Line 2 alternate with one another down each side of the electrical panel.

Odd breaker numbers are on the left side. Even breaker numbers on the right side. If you look closely at the breakers metal panel dead front you should see the numbers. Usually stamped into the metal. If you can’t see them here is how the breakers are numbered. (Note: For standard sized 1" single pole breakers. A 2 pole breaker takes up two 1" spaces.)

 

L1 = Line 1. (Leg, Bus)

L2 = Line 2. (Leg, Bus)

brk = breaker. (Or unused breaker space.)

 

L1 >> brk #1 ...... brk #2

L2 >> brk #3 ....... brk #4

L1 >> brk #5 ....... brk #6

L2 >> brk #7 ....... brk #8

L1 >> brk #9 ....... brk #10

L2 >> brk #11 ..... brk #12

L1 >> brk #13 .... brk #14

And so on down each side of the panel.

 

(Note a 2 pole breaker connects to both L1 and L2... 240V potential...

 

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

 

Here is some reading material.

An Overview of Audio System Grounding and Interfacing

Take note of page 16.

Read pages 31 thru 36.

Note the chart on page 35. Aluminum armored MC measured the second best. Number one being the best where the hot and neutral conductors are twisted together the entire length of the branch circuit. The EGC, (Equipment Grounding Conductor), is ran along side the twisted pair.

The type of branch circuit wiring can have an impact on the sound quality of an audio system. Also the installation methods used installing the branch circuit wiring can have an impact on the SQ.

 

Before we moved in I had an electrician put in a dedicated line (has it’s own breaker switch) which is 10 gauge

What type of #10awg branch circuit wiring was installed? NM, (Romex)? MC, Metal Clad) armored cable? Other?

.

Like almost all threads here, this one has some good information and a lot of misinformation.  I have to feel sorry for the layperson trying to figure it out.