I’m curious to see people’s opinions on what they believe is the most uncolored dac? Every dac I’ve tried seems to be a flavor that deviates from neutrality in some way (smooths things over, too bright, too soft on transients, lacks bass etc...). Is there a dac that people believe gets all the fundamentals correct with leaving very little sonic footprint? What is the cost threshold needed to achieve it? I’m surprised at my own findings recently but really curious if anyone else has been searching for a fundamentally uncolored dac and what they’ve found.
I realize the most obvious answer is "the dac with impeccable measurements" but I have also found some of them to sound unnatural (dry/bright).
The most neutral DAC I have heard is the Rockna Wavedream. The edition and signature tonally are the same. You get more detail and an even bigger soundstage with the signature vs the edition.
the thing about the Wavedream is the sound profile doesn’t really stand out in any way. It is not bright nor is it warm. The sound isn’t full but it also isn’t thin. It isn’t forward but it isn’t laid back. Etc…. It is hard to describe the sound because of this and in fairness, some folks find this a bit boring as the DAC is so exceedingly uncolored.
I have a Wavedream Signature and agree it's very neutral, but "boring" is not a word I would associate with it. It's very dynamic and punchy. Sometimes it startles me a little when I start playing music, even though I'm expecting it, there's just so much more body and drive than any DAC I've owned previously.
Before the Wavedream I had an Aqua La Voce S3 which to me was also quite neutral and perhaps a little more affordable for most than a Wavedream.
I am not sure what neutral sounding is because that is subjective. I personally like my Shiit audio Byfrost DAC, which is very outclassed in this forum.
The most neutral DAC I have heard is the Rockna Wavedream. The edition and signature tonally are the same. You get more detail and an even bigger soundstage with the signature vs the edition.
the thing about the Wavedream is the sound profile doesn’t really stand out in any way. It is not bright nor is it warm. The sound isn’t full but it also isn’t thin. It isn’t forward but it isn’t laid back. Etc…. It is hard to describe the sound because of this and in fairness, some folks find this a bit boring as the DAC is so exceedingly uncolored.
I would say this is true across the dozens of DACs I have listened too ranging from the Khadas Tone 2 up to the MSB Reference.
Crane Song Solaris Quantum for $2K from Sweetwater. It is the sound of analog which is diff from neutrality which you asked about but you will be totally pulled into the sound.
The Nagra HD DAC is neutral based on comparing with master tape but at a quantum leap in price compared to the Crane Song. Your likely reaction is that the Nagra is more laid back than the Crane Song. To make an analogy to which prolly one 0.001 % of readers can relate it's like the diff between 468 and 456 tape. 468 is neutral to the point where upon first comparison you find it dull compared to 456. But upon long term listening you find it is more relaxed which is why a lot of pros go for 468. Especially for recording classical.
* difficult to get Crane Song. I guess it's three guys working out of a garage. Sweetwater is yr best bet for getting yr hands on some actual bird.
@jerryg123 please understand I have not heard or personally experienced the Topping or Gustard DAC's mentioned earlier, just relaying what so many other reviewers have stated about those products being very neutral which is what the OP ask for. Not sure its a digital desert, but true I have owned many many digital components through the years and some from the most venerable companies in HiFi.
Its also worth noting a great many of these once highly revered digital audio companies promising the holy grail no longer exist. Lot of road kill through the years with many esoteric and boutique companies. The days for me spending dozens of thousands of dollars to experiment are long over as well. The ad quote above is all too familiar. Regardless enjoy.
Time to get back to the OP's opening question, neutral DAC's.
@routlawsounds even better. To many obstacles in the path of the DAC's you tried.
I am glad you found a DAC that works for you, to bad you wondered in the digital desert for so long.
Echo’s End is the perfect DAC when you want music to flow just as it does in nature. You don’t get harshness or masking by digital “same-ness.” What you do get is an easy-to-use, fully automatic digital-to-analogue converter whose sole purpose is to provide the best possible audio quality. You won’t find external buttons, nor lights, nor animated display screens. Echo’s End is fully automatic. Just connect a digital source such as USB, S/PDIF, or AES/EBU, and Echo’s End will automatically find the signal and convert it to beautiful analog sound. At the outputs you have directly converted analog signal, with absolutely no components in the signal path. No chips, no op-amp buffers, no caps, no transformers, nor any tubes.
The sound quality is fantastic. We’ve incorporated on-board Firewall modules, a special technology for conditioning power developed and manufactured exclusively by LessLoss. This raises the sonic performance to unbelievable levels. All parts in the Echo’s End, both mechanical and electrical, are fixed directly to wood, and point-to-point soldering allows for the smoothest possible signal flow, ensuring the most liquid audio reproduction imaginable.
I am quite happy with my recent acquisition of the Weiss 502. I am not sure what neutral really means but the Weiss does get out of the way and does a great job of revealing what is in the recording. Tends to be in the “warm” side (Pass XA 160.8 amp and AR Ref 6 Pre.
@mofojoHolo Spring. Tried for 2 or 3 years to like the sound from this thing, but never did. Used every input available just didn't sound good. Have a friend who had the same experience with two of the Holo DAC's, and also one Denafrips. Each to their own I suppose but I'm done with R2R based upon those experiences.
I hope you like the Schiit dac! It sounds like a reasonable choice. I heard the top Yiggy model that was out some 3-4 years ago and while it was neutral, the way it did neutrality left me a tad cold. It was a bit mechanical sounding. Just my experience and subjective to be sure. I am sure others find it magical as this passion of ours is subjective.
Here is something to think about. My experience with the Tron dac has educated me in ways I was previously ignorant about. It elevated my whole system and my enjoyment of it tremendously. I did not think a dac alone could do this. It has saved my wife and I money, time and effort in the end. Wish I would have purchased it a few years ago.
It’s not about slaying some never ending dragon, but rather deeper enjoyment and contentment in what you already have as a system. More money does not always, or even often, equal more fun and enjoyment of music and system. However, a special front end source can indeed elevate everything. Sometimes more money does pay off in the end and can be a wonderful value. As I get older I tire of buying and selling gear. I want to keep what I have and enjoy. Happy to say my Tron dac makes this possible for me.
Other less expensive dacs, compared to Tron, that I know to be quite good include:
Mojo Audio Mystique X ($7-$10k) A very special dac that can elevate an entire system nicely. Still rather expensive.
Merason Dac 1 ($5-$6k) Even handed and so very engaging.
Upgraded MHDT Orchid dac ( upgrade 10 key parts) $1500 or so. Upgrades make it more neutral and articulate.
In the past year there have been several extremely positive reviews on the Topping D90 SE/LE and Gustard X26 PRO DACS. All reviewers stated emphatically either of these two DACs were as neutral an anything they have ever heard. Granted around here neither of them are expensive enough to be considered for anything other than a paper weight, but you might be surprised based upon what I’ve read.
FWIW, I've owned R2R Ladder DAC's and at least the ones I've had were anything but neutral. I grew tired of their presentation quickly because quite a bit of detail and imaging were left on the table. Its not a road I would want travel down again.
The Auralic Vega is remarkably flexible and affordable. You can set it up a number of different ways, but it always comes off quite transparent. It really is a fantastic piece of gear.
Don't you find the same issue with cartridges? As many people upstream mentioned, it is the marrying of the entire system and room that you try and create that neutral sound. A better question is what is "neutral" because I believe each person has their own opinion on this.
If neutral means best measuring you can get that for a couple hundred bucks. Best sounding… well maybe subjective but not couple hundred bucks. Hooked up a Musician Aquarius yesterday and I have to say I’ve never heard digital sound this good. Good timing cause my vinyl rig is buzzing like an SOB and I don’t know what the issue is.
@schw06, if I’ve read through this thread correctly, did you say that you’re prepared to spend in the neighborhood of $15K to get what you’re looking for in a DAC? Now that’s a nice problem to have because IMO once you get into the world above $10k you’ve really got a lot of options and you can start considering Nagra, MSB, dCS, Chord DAVE, and the Mola Mola Tambaqui DACs, all of which are insanely good. If you start with a top shelf DAC and build your system around it, then you’ll have a stand-alone system that will last hopefully for years. The key is to be able to demo as many DACs as you possibly can without being in a hurry.
I built my system around a Chord Hugo TT2 DAC with a Chord M Scaler upsampler and WAVE High Fidelity Storm Reference BNC cables. The TT2 and the M Scaler both have Sbooster LPSU’s which are plugged into an AudioQuest Niagara power conditioner. Obviously this is far from a simple one-box plug and play solution. As if there is such a thing. But this is where my music journey took me and I’m pretty happy about how things came together.
Don’t be afraid to look at used equipment either. People who are obviously flush with way too much cash lying around sell super expensive high-end boutique audio gear at great prices just because they can.
@mlsstlVery well said and I think that’s exactly the path I will take. The idea of having an expensive dac sounds sexy but I’m wise enough to know that chasing the dragon of the “perfect system” isn’t possible. Thanks for validating my own thought process and @ghdprenticethoughts as well. I honestly appreciate everyone’s input on this thread.
**Schiit Yggdrasil Less is More just purchased new from Schiit. It’s at a price point I’d rather support their business than buy preowned at a discount. I’m not opposed to buying Chinese dacs but do have a sense of pride when I support an American company. Thanks again to everone.
@schw06in your post above you say you got "caught up in the music" while listening to a $229 Schiit Modius. To me that would suggest that going up their product line would give you more of what you know you already like. The most you can possibly spend on a Schiit is $2,700 for their top-of-the-line Yggdrasil+. And, if you don't think it's worth it after you try it out, you can send it back and get 95% of your purchase price refunded.
For someone willing to spend up to $10K on a DAC, that seems like a no-brainer trial.
Of course, sometimes we get infected with the "it has to be different than what I have now" disease even when we really, really like what we are currently using. If that's the case, the Yggy probably won't cure your disease. ;-)
I put the latest Denafrips Terminator, Mojo, top Bricasti, EMM, MSB, etc. DACs among others all worth an audition. But this review of the top Chord DAC also has me intrigued. FWIW…
@soix I was hoping to avoid price but I’m willing to spend $15k. I would prefer to spend $199. I recognize the sweet spot is somewhere between but find myself lately thinking “how low can you go”?. I often find my expectations for 5 digit equipment gets in the way of my enjoyment because often the differences are relatively small compared to lower cost gear and my preconceived idea that a $14,000 dac should make me breakfast and rub my feet. The only thing I’ve ever bought that I thought was absolutely worth every dollar close to $10,000 is the Circle Labs A200 amp. Again I really didn’t want to get into price points and budgets and really appreciate @ghdprenticerecommendation of the Schiit Yggdrasil. I’ve followed his posts in the past and believe we have similar opinions. I’m actually listening to the Schiit Modius and absolutely caught up in the music. I recognize it doesn’t soundstage like other dacs but timing is so spot on and tone/timbre are shockingly good at a throw away price. I know there’s a happy answer somewhere south of $10k and would ultimately like to stay there. I have the utmost respect for @grannyringand know anything he says I can take to the bank but would ultimately not like to put $14k in a dac unless I just can’t find happiness with something less expensive. Im dragging my heels at the moment but may ultimately cave and get the Tron…hoping someone will save me from myself.
Has anybody noticed different copies of the same dac varying in their sound a bit? People are noticing differences between various dac designs that are so small when measured it’s amazing. It seems these ultra perceptive ears could also detect differences between several copies of the same dac. I know with camera lenses it can be fairly easy to see and measure differences between different copies of the same lens design. Just wondering. The ultra neutral dac may not be of any specific design, but specific copies of a number of different designs may randomly hit closer to neutral than others. Nothing’s perfect, so each copy of the same dac design must sound a little different to those of us who don’t have tin ears. With microphones, I know a famous studio engineer bought 6 of the exact same model of very expensive mics, with serial numbers sequential, and then ranked them most suitable for various instruments and vocals. Then he tested his students by asking them which one is best for recording tambourine.
I know that it is not an expensive DAC but I have had a great deal of pleasure listening to my SMSL DO 100 DAC. They report that it has a SMSL hump, but my room and the Magnepan LRS+ paired with the Peachtree Gan400 seems to work well. It might be the Schitt Freya + tube preamp that is softer sound than my previous Solid state preamp.
While I haven’t listened to every DAC ever made, every DAC I’ve heard has flavored the sound. Having say that, having not been in the studio with the mixing engineer, I have little idea what most music is supposed to sound like.
The neutral thing is hard… it is so associated with flat measured it gets the rap of meaning lean.
So, for example, I owned a Audio Research Reference CD9 / DAC. If I characterize it’s sound, I would say it is detailed, warm and natural sounding. The reality is, tonally it makes music that sounds exactly like what I hear in the wild (real acoustic instruments as in the symphony and jazz venues). But I would not refer to it as neutral as I think people would think analytical.
I had a Berkeley Alpha Reference 3 DAC ($22K) to which I compared my ARC DAC. The difference was absolutely minuscule… but the ARC, was ever so slightly warmer and more natural. So both should be called neutral… but, I wouldn’t dare as once again conjure the feeling I would be calling them lean.
also I helped choose a DAC for a friend and we got him a Yggdrasil. The generality is that it sound quality is competitive with DACs of roughly twice the cost… which puts it in the $5K competitive range. I also ended up buying a Gungnir for my office system. Hate the name (Schiit) but in the budget category they are really good values.
I sent back 2 Topping DAC's....reliability issues.....Go with the Denafrips VENUS II at 3 K or the Audio Mirror Toubadour $ 3.5 K.....anything more expensive is a waste of money unless you have a 50K system.
you should try the Wyred4 sound 10th anniversary DAC, the reviews on it have been stellar one of the reviewers put it up against his VPI turntable with the $5,000 cartridge and he said that the 10th anniversary was every bit as analog sounding not cheap $4,500 US, and they offer a 30-day trial period if you don't like it you send it back and get your money back I tried it and I totally agree most analog sounding DAC that I've had in my system I absolutely love it.
From my personal experience, if you listen to DACs with excellent measurements and find them dry / bright, then there’s something else in your playback chain that’s causing this.
Judging from your past posts on speakers, you seem to gravitate towards a brighter overall sound (Klipsch Cornwall / Forte). If you want to pursue neutrality with your electronics, you probably have to consider changing out your speakers.
@schw06
+1 on Bricasti M1SE and Tron recommendations. Both of these DAC’s are outstanding. I would have recommended to check out Merging Technologies +player (DAC+Roon player) but it’s out of your price range. When you speak to Colin about Tron, ask him about the +player. With Merging +player, you don’t need external ROON device like Nucleus or Laptop to run Core.
@tvad I made the mistake of using the ethernet input only (bought it to eliminate the need for a streamer) and all I can say is that I thought there was something wrong with it. There was etched highs and diminished one note bass. I let it run in (purchased new) and it made little difference. I hesitate to disparage the dac because I am told the usb and other inputs sound fantastic and don't want to discourage those from having it on their radar but be aware the ethernet input is not the dac's strength.
The Audio Mirror hand built R2R DAC has No caps in the signal path...uses Analogue Devices most Musical and most expensive chip...is tubed...non oversampling...natural presentation of what "music" sounds like. Toubadour IV SE $ 3500...Tremendous value.
@tvad Thank you for your input. I agree the tonal saturation piece is a fine line and it's synergy with your amp is often walking the tightrope. I was not a fan of the Meitner MA3 but I believe a different designer than the EMM if I'm not mistaken. Did you have a favorite among those dacs?
It’s somewhere north of $3K that DACs start to differentiate themselves from the pack.
in that strata, it’s BRYSTON as my best bang fer yer buck choice as “uncoloured”.
“ ,,,, the BDA-3 still has an immediately engaging sound to listen to, with a propulsive presentation, bold dynamics, big bass, and a very natural tonality,,,Add to this its neutral yet colorful delivery, totally convincing timbre and the total absence of any hardness or grain and the BDA-3 becomes quite the proposition.”
@jjss49 good question. For me uncolored is a dac that has an even tonal balance(not tilted up or rolled off on either end, has proper tone saturation(not stark and clinical or overly saturated and vivid), and one that has proper dynamics with both leading edge attack and decay that is similar to live music. Other criteria like soundstaging and black background are of less importance to me.
like analog and less like digital. Or bad digital anyway.
If no one remembers the Sony CDP 101 is was only capable of 14 bit resolution. The fact that it didn’t skip (usually) or have surface noise were it’s best attributes
I was playing mostly records at the time because there were only about a half a dozen rock CDs when it first came out. They came out slowly, Classical music was getting released big time and pop / rock slowly followed
we are definitely lucky to be able to buy great digital gear that most people can afford. Maybe sacrifice here or there but see the value in a really good DAC. The price / performance ratio has never been higher.
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