Neutral Dac?

I would say other electronics in any given system will affect the sound as much or more than the DAC. And additionally the "synergy " between the components and the room itself. Even though I don’t like the word "synergy" as it tends to not specify the problem much. I have a Schiit DAC and a Benchmark DAC and I think other components actually have more impact on the "neutrality " of sound in my high fidelity system. IMHO

In reference to anything audio, "uncolored" is in the eye (well, ear) of the beholder. You can pick any DAC out there and you will find those who think it's great and others who say it's garbage.  You are the only person who can decide what works for you, but admittedly, discussing things with those who have a differing opinion can make for interesting, but ultimately meaningless discussions. 

@mlsstl  Well said but I'd argue there isn't a single forum discussion that isn't ultimately meaningless. That being said I have experienced some dacs that have a lot more "personality" than others and curious about people's opinions of dacs that are the amp equivalent of "straight wire with gain". I'm trying to stay away from the concept of system synergy.

@2psyop Thanks for weighing in. Ironically one of the 2 of those manufacturers makes a dac that I consider to have very little personality(exactly what I'm asking about). I've not heard the other brand.

Everyone's reference will be different than yours. The system and room you hear a component in provides a different starting point and as @mlsstl points out, it comes down to your ears and preferences. Most shops are happy to let you try / demo a piece in your rig. If you don't have a local shop most manufacturers have demo programs. Even if you have to drop some dough on return shipping it is well worth it to find the piece that works best in your system.

@schw06

Forget measurements. Forget the cost.
What is your definition of neutral and uncolored? How would you possible know that you heard it? What is your reference point that would help you determine that?

How do you know that you just heard a dac that colored the sound or didn’t color it when you literally have every single element starting from power, outlet, cables, source, I can go on and on here, impacting the overall presentation. Unless you can answer these questions and eliminate all of the change factors from the equation, there’s no way to get to the answer. No one could possibly answer this for you.

Don’t burden yourself with getting to ultimate neutrality of components. When you build a system that gives you goosebumps when you sit down to listen, that is a far bigger achievement than soliciting thoughts from others on whats the most neutral DAC. Who cares. 

@audphile1 

I agree about measurements and cost. Apparently asking peoples opinions about what they consider an uncolored dac is unanswerable in your opinion. Thanks for weighing in. 

You completely missed my point but that’s ok.

Have some mention the Soekris 2541 as a candidate.

@audphile1 I appreciate your time and thought in your response and apologize if my response offended you…not my intent at all. I appreciate your advice about not seeking out absolute neutrality in system building.
Maybe I should put a little more “meat on the bones” of my point/question as the lack of background has led the thread a bit astray. I’ve been afflicted with the hobby for close to 25 years. If you look at my feedback (which embarrassingly is probably only half the transactions) you’ll see I’ve rifled through way too many speakers/amps/sources. For future system building I’m just trying to assemble a few pieces to use as neutral/relatively uncolored benchmarks to compare against. They won’t necessarily be in my primary system (but might depending on synergy).
For me, too much seasoning in a system with compensating one colored component for another is not the approach I want to take and believe there’s usually a spot or 2 where uncolored gear improves the system…hence my question about what people view as a neutral/uncolored dac.

The two most uncolored components I’ve had in my system was a Bryston BP-6 stereo preamp and my current Musician Pegasus R2R DAC. The Pegasus does a superb job of maintaining tonality and fluidity but without truncating upper treble detail that some R2R DACs get accused of doing. I recently added a Denafrips Iris DDC to allow me to take advantage of the Pegasus’ i2S input and got yet another significant boost in transparency, detail, soundstage, and imaging. At $1100 I think it’s the epitome of not only a neutral but also a natural-sounding component that to me is the best of both worlds and is also a great value for the level of performance it provides.

There's no such thing as neutrality.

I am a big believer in synergy.   I had a NAD m51.  Sounded great in my system.   Why I replaced it with the RME ,  I’ll never know.  
 

That’s not to say I didn’t like the RME , I did but the NAD has a more natural sound to me.  The RME is what you would expect from a studio DAC , clean and clear.  
 

I have an all tube system, have for a while.   Except the DAC.  I have always said I would never buy a tube DAC.   I guess my logic was that if it had tubes it would be colored and not true to the source.   
 

Then I put a LAB 12 DAC 1 Reference in the system and it’s like the best of body worlds.  Plenty of detail, great tone , body, it just rocks….

@soix @oddiofyl Thank you both for weighing in those helpful examples.

@hilde45 i agree and hate the word neutral so how about if I substitute the term “dac that minimizes coloration” .

I honestly don’t care how it measures, If it’s considered neutral or lush, or whatever and however you want to describe it.  I only care about how it sounds in my system.  

@hilde45 +1

@schw06 you didn’t offend me at all. Besides, you came around. We’re good.   

As to that bit of a background you provided, I would look for the most natural sounding DAC. I think we’re past the “neutral” dac discussion here.
From there move on to level of resolution, details, imaging, soundstage. You will begin to scratch that surface at around $5k retail price. Benchmark and Schiit won’t be your ticket. 

@audphile1 in that $5k ballpark what dacs would you put in the “natural” category?

@schw06 

Like you I have owned and listened to many dacs over the years. I enjoyed many of them. However, I sensed there was still a dac out there that could do a better job of consistently engaging me into my music.  One that would become the foundation of my music sytem(s).   I never thought I would spend the kind of money I did several months ago on a Tron Atlantic dac.  My wife and I are thrilled with the purchase however.  This dac is really one that nails exactly what you are hoping for in your system and music enjoyment. It delivers in spades on my desires. It is the centerpiece of my system and the most transparent, pure and even handed dac I have heard.  

Tron offers this dac in 3 levels. I purchased the top level offering. I suggest just trying it in your system. Gestalt Audio Design in Nashville can help you.  Talk to Colin as you already know him. I tried this dac and was moved to buy it.  Most expensive single piece of gear I have ever purchased.  However, it is the BEST audio purchase I have made to date.  Best decision I have made.  I think the price range is $8,000 - $13,500 depending on the level.  Yes, a lot of money. 
 

@grannyring  Hey Bill that is awesome thank you. I know we both use the Circle Labs A200 so knowing there’s synergy is helpful and Tron is not a dac that was on my radar. Colin is a great guy and also using his tchernov usb cable which is amazing(I still have your Acoustic BBQ usb and still think very highly of it). Knowing you well and trusting your ears, your recommendation holds great weight and thank you!

LessLoss Echos End.

Natural.   Yes.  Some DACs can sound more

like analog and less like digital.  Or bad digital anyway.   
 

If no one remembers the Sony CDP 101 is was only capable of 14 bit resolution.  The fact that it didn’t skip (usually) or have surface noise were it’s best attributes

I was playing mostly records at the time because there were only about a half a dozen rock CDs when it first came out.  They came out slowly, Classical music was getting released big time and pop / rock slowly followed 

we are definitely lucky to be able to buy great digital gear that most people can afford.   Maybe sacrifice here or there but see the value in a really good DAC.  The price / performance ratio has never been higher. 

@schw06 there are multiple discussions you can read and learn from.

what is neutral as the op defines it?

I am very happy with my Yggdrasil. Music has life and drive. So, I disagree with those that say the entry point is $5K or above. I’ve heard those too.

@jjss49  good question. For me uncolored is a dac that has an even tonal balance(not tilted up or rolled off on either end, has proper tone saturation(not stark and clinical or overly saturated and vivid), and one that has proper dynamics with both leading edge attack and decay that is similar to live music. Other criteria like soundstaging and black background are of less importance to me. 

Topping D90SE has the lowest distortion sounds fantastic 

It’s somewhere north of $3K that DACs start to differentiate themselves from the pack. 
in that strata, it’s BRYSTON as my best bang fer yer buck choice as “uncoloured”.

https://www.hifi-advice.com/blog/review/digital-reviews/spdif-dac-reviews/bryston-bda-3-dac/

“ ,,,, the BDA-3 still has an immediately engaging sound to listen to, with a propulsive presentation, bold dynamics, big bass, and a very natural tonality,,,Add to this its neutral yet colorful delivery, totally convincing timbre and the total absence of any hardness or grain and the BDA-3 becomes quite the proposition.”

Give the Boulder DAC a listen. The one in my 866 INT is fantastic ! Good luck!

@tvad Thank you for your input. I agree the tonal saturation piece is a fine line and it's synergy with your amp is often walking the tightrope. I was not a fan of the Meitner MA3 but I believe a different designer than the EMM if I'm not mistaken. Did you have a favorite among those dacs?

The Audio Mirror hand built R2R DAC has No caps in the signal path...uses Analogue Devices most Musical and most expensive chip...is tubed...non oversampling...natural presentation of what "music" sounds like. Toubadour IV SE $ 3500...Tremendous value.

@tvad I made the mistake of using the ethernet input only (bought it to eliminate the need for a streamer) and all I can say is that I thought there was something wrong with it. There was etched highs and diminished one note bass. I let it run in (purchased new) and it made little difference. I hesitate to disparage the dac because I am told the usb and other inputs sound fantastic and don't want to discourage those from having it on their radar but be aware the ethernet input is not the dac's strength.

@elangley01 I would bet it does. My Topping Pre90 sounds fabulous too.

@tomcarr I have them paired together with Hypex NC400 and BMR Monitors the sound is pristine.

I’m awaiting delivery on a Purifi amp from Buckeye.

@schw06
+1 on Bricasti M1SE and Tron recommendations. Both of these DAC’s are outstanding. I would have recommended to check out Merging Technologies +player (DAC+Roon player) but it’s out of your price range. When you speak to Colin about Tron, ask him about the +player. With Merging +player, you don’t need external ROON device like Nucleus or Laptop to run Core.

Well, by all means try a Topping.  I wont' say it gets any fundamental right, but if you want a neutral presenter it's an inexpensive experiment.

@schw06

From my personal experience, if you listen to DACs with excellent measurements and find them dry / bright, then there’s something else in your playback chain that’s causing this.

Judging from your past posts on speakers, you seem to gravitate towards a brighter overall sound (Klipsch Cornwall / Forte). If you want to pursue neutrality with your electronics, you probably have to consider changing out your speakers.

you should try the Wyred4 sound 10th anniversary DAC, the reviews on it have been stellar one of the reviewers put it up against his VPI turntable with the $5,000 cartridge and he said that the 10th anniversary was every bit as analog sounding not cheap $4,500 US, and they offer a 30-day trial period if you don't like it you send it back and get your money back I tried it and I totally agree most analog sounding DAC that I've had in my system I absolutely love it.

I sent back 2 Topping DAC's....reliability issues.....Go with the Denafrips VENUS II at 3 K or the Audio Mirror Toubadour $ 3.5 K.....anything more expensive is a waste of money unless you have a 50K system.

The neutral thing is hard… it is so associated with flat measured it gets the rap of meaning lean. 
 

So, for example, I owned a Audio Research Reference CD9 / DAC. If I characterize it’s sound, I would say it is detailed, warm and natural sounding. The reality is, tonally it makes music that sounds exactly like what I hear in the wild (real acoustic instruments as in the symphony and jazz venues). But I would not refer to it as neutral as I think people would think analytical.

I had a Berkeley Alpha Reference 3 DAC ($22K) to which I compared my ARC DAC. The difference was absolutely minuscule… but the ARC, was ever so slightly warmer and more natural. So both should be called neutral… but, I wouldn’t dare as once again conjure the feeling I would be calling them lean. 
 

also I helped choose a DAC for a friend and we got him a Yggdrasil. The generality is that it sound quality is competitive with DACs of roughly twice the cost… which puts it in the $5K competitive range. I also ended up buying a Gungnir for my office system. Hate the name (Schiit) but in the budget category they are really good values.

While I haven’t listened to every DAC ever made, every DAC I’ve heard has flavored the sound. Having say that, having not been in the studio with the mixing engineer, I have little idea what most music is supposed to  sound like.

I know that it is not an expensive DAC but I have had a great deal of pleasure listening to my SMSL DO 100 DAC. They report that it has a SMSL hump, but my room and the Magnepan LRS+ paired with the Peachtree Gan400 seems to work well. It might be the Schitt Freya + tube preamp that is softer sound than my previous Solid state preamp.

Given the wide range of recommendations it’d be helpful if you could share your budget range to narrow things down a bit.  

Has anybody noticed different copies of the same dac varying in their sound a bit? People are noticing differences between various dac designs that are so small when measured it’s amazing. It seems these ultra perceptive ears could also detect differences between several copies of the same dac. I know with camera lenses it can be fairly easy to see and measure differences between different copies of the same lens design. Just wondering. The ultra neutral dac may not be of any specific design, but specific copies of a number of different designs may randomly hit closer to neutral than others. Nothing’s perfect, so each copy of the same dac design must sound a little different to those of us who don’t have tin ears. With microphones, I know a famous studio engineer bought 6 of the exact same model of very expensive mics, with serial numbers sequential, and then ranked them most suitable for various instruments and vocals. Then he tested his students by asking them which one is best for recording tambourine.

@soix I was hoping to avoid price but I’m willing to spend $15k. I would prefer to spend $199. I recognize the sweet spot is somewhere between but find myself lately thinking “how low can you go”?. I often find my expectations for 5 digit equipment gets in the way of my enjoyment because often the differences are relatively small compared to lower cost gear and my preconceived idea that a $14,000 dac should make me breakfast and rub my feet. The only thing I’ve ever bought that I thought was absolutely worth every dollar close to $10,000 is the Circle Labs A200 amp. Again I really didn’t want to get into price points and budgets and really appreciate @ghdprentice recommendation of the Schiit Yggdrasil. I’ve followed his posts in the past and believe we have similar opinions. I’m actually listening to the Schiit Modius and absolutely caught up in the music. I recognize it doesn’t soundstage like other dacs but timing is so spot on and tone/timbre are shockingly good at a throw away price. I know there’s a happy answer somewhere south of $10k and would ultimately like to stay there. I have the utmost respect for @grannyring and know anything he says I can take to the bank but would ultimately not like to put $14k in a dac unless I just can’t find happiness with something less expensive. Im dragging my heels at the moment but may ultimately cave and get the Tron…hoping someone will save me from myself.

I put the latest Denafrips Terminator, Mojo, top Bricasti, EMM, MSB, etc. DACs among others all worth an audition.  But this review of the top Chord DAC also has me intrigued.  FWIW…

https://soundnews.net/sources/dacs/digital-to-analog-veritas-in-extremis-chord-dave-dac-review/

@schw06 in your post above you say you got "caught up in the music" while listening to a $229 Schiit Modius.  To me that would suggest that going up their product line would give you more of what you know you already like. The most you can possibly spend on a Schiit is $2,700 for their top-of-the-line Yggdrasil+.  And, if you don't think it's worth it after you try it out, you can send it back and get 95% of your purchase price refunded.

For someone willing to spend up to $10K on a DAC, that seems like a no-brainer trial. 

Of course, sometimes we get infected with the "it has to be different than what I have now" disease even when we really, really like what we are currently using.  If that's the case, the Yggy probably won't cure your disease. ;-)

@mlsstl Very well said and I think that’s exactly the path I will take. The idea of having an expensive dac sounds sexy but I’m wise enough to know that chasing the dragon of the “perfect system” isn’t possible. Thanks for validating my own thought process and @ghdprentice thoughts as well. I honestly appreciate everyone’s input on this thread.

**Schiit Yggdrasil Less is More just purchased new from Schiit. It’s at a price point I’d rather support their business than buy preowned at a discount. I’m not opposed to buying Chinese dacs but do have a sense of pride when I support an American company. Thanks again to everone.