My Sonus Faber Amatis have weak bass even though I'm running ML 536s--800 w/ch into 4 ohms

@torke 

I was just reading about your amps and I have another question or six.  What are they plugged into? Are they sharing the same circuit? Is it a 15 or a 20 amp circuit? Are you using a power conditioner? Are you using the stock power cords?

All the best.

@torke

More watts aren’t always the answer.  I have the SF Amati G5’s and have PS Audio BHK 300 amplifiers that put out about 600 watts @ 4 ohms and I get amazing bass.with them being 91db efficient I rarely turn the volume past 30 and if I go to 40+ the whole house starts vibrating.
The speakers are 4’ from the front of the speaker to the front wall and 3’ from the side walls. They are 7’6” apart and my listening position is 7’6” from them.Oh ant they are toed in so they aim at my shoulders.

Having said all that, I can honestly say that it’s not the speakers. I have no knowledge of your amps or your room, but your room and placement make a huge difference in the sound of these speakers. What’s your room size? What is your floor made of? Do you have carpet? When you clap your hands near your listening position can you hear any echo? Same question but near your speakers? How far apart are your speakers? How far are you from your speakers? Before you got the SF speakers, what did you have? Did they seem lite in the bass also? Have you double checked that the speaker cables are connected correctly?
 

All the best.

It sounds like you’ve never been pleased with the bass with just main speakers in that room. When I moved into a large room, the bass completely disappeared. 2 subs are especially important in a large room and I got the best results by placing them on either side of the room, about halfway front to back but slightly staggered, and facing to the rear behind furniture. Less interference with the mains but still provided that fullness which had always been missing. Why not keep your 2 subs with your mains running full range? Then play with your sub xovers to get the right fill.

Another big improvement in bass quality and quantity came when I placed 2’x4’ acoustic treatments behind the mains and soffit traps stood up on end to the sides of the mains to reduce boundary interference. In a large room with the speakers well away from walls, the boundary interference will be deep into the bass. I used GIK acoustics which won’t break the bank. The soffit traps are placed to control boundary interference from both the mains and the subs. My bass is pretty awesome now. Good luck!

+ "Found Nordost to be light in the bass."

Here’s an example

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8vhVTQ1cLo

As an aside, Duality Repair, the YouTube channel linked above, is one of the best if not the best electronics repair channels on YouTube. 

Too bad he doesn't post more regularly. He sometimes goes months without a new episode.

i have a room that is remarkably similar in terms of dimensions and the back being half wall and half open to the kitchen. In my case i have high ceilings with irrigular angles above which is overall beneficial.  Keep in mind, large rooms are always much harder to fill with Bass AND that open back wall means that there are no back wall for the bass to bounce off and get enforced.  Walk around the room.  Pay attention to see if the bass is stronger as you are near the side walls or in that one back corner.  Does it lessen as you get to that area that is open in the back.  i agree with  pkatsuleas it is likley more about the room .  i chimed in because my room is so similar.

Did I miss the part where you told us about speaker placement? How far off the wall behind them? How far apart are they? How far away do you sit from them? Are you using the Naim as a streamer and the Classe as preamp and Dac? I’m not a big fan of Naim and I’m not so sure the Classe is the right preamp for the Levinson's,, If it was me I’d look for a Levinson preamp. At then you’d know that impedance and phase are correct, Then a appropriate Streamer and Dac, I just think there’s some mismatches in your equipment and maybe speaker placement 

Walk around in the room and determine if some satisfactory bass output is present at a location other than your listening location. Move speakers a bit closer to the front wall and walk around some more.

If you are sitting on top of modal nulls, you might start to wonder where all the bass went. If you can’t move your listening position, correct positioning of subs and sub phase adjustment would be the way to address such nulls.

Do a battery tap on each speaker and see if the woofers are moving in the same direction. (check if some Italian guy wired something wrong when he was coming out of riposo)

etc

Did you try a different amp? Some half broken amps can make all the bass disappear, depending on the issue. Take it to some local tech (if you are not set up to bench stuff at home) and check it out. Here’s an example

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8vhVTQ1cLo

On a positive note, those KEFs are nice subs.

It could also be that your Amati is a slightly bass flaccid speaker overall, with emphasis on looks and mids "sweetness", tailored for Diana Krall, not MC Ren.

@torke 

I believe you nailed it that it is simply your room.  That is tough for any of us to diagnose and advise upon simply by commenting in a thread.  I have Wilson Sophia 1 that have a lot of bass that is clean and deep in my room.  When I had some Egglestonworks Vigintis and Wilson Alexia 1 they both were very weak with significantly less bottom end compared to the Sophias.  On paper this makes zero sense.  I visited a guy and listened to his Wilson Sasha DAW with ample amplification and the sound was the most boring sound I have ever heard from a hifi system.  It was shocking how little bass and realism the system had.  I totally understand the psychology of feeling that you should not need subs but maybe you do.  I am sure when you have them properly paired with your SF speakers the SF will provide the remainder of the spectrum beautifully so let them work together and enjoy the end result.

@torke : I have recently tried the Amatis’ (somewhat) smaller siblings, the Serafino, at home for almost two weeks. I returned them in the end because of what I perceived as a very colored sound. The highs and upper mids, while truly beautiful in their own right, were much too emphasized. The bass didn’t lack extension, there just seemed to be comparatively too little of it (along with the weak lower midrange). I have also heard a pair of Amatis for a few hours at a friend’s house, cramped in a very very small room right against the wall (so bass was plentiful there) and as far as I could tell the same basic tilted up sound signature was there as well. I’m a lover of classical and jazz music just as you and, for my ears, these new SF speakers didn’t quite cut it in terms of timbre naturalness, the BBC speakers I’ve owned (Spendor, Harbeth, Graham) being better in this regard (but also lower in resolution and with less extension both ways, not exactly in the same class, unfortunately - to be expected given the price difference). This shouldn’t be construed as me saying they are bad speakers, they do some fabulous things like those sweet and silky highs and the "musicality" and I’ve been almost obsessed with them for a few years but, on closer inspection, natural sounding they are not...

That Classe' has a high pass setting when using a sub. Are you certain you are sending full range to the speakers when the KEF subs are not used?

Page 28 of the Classe' manual.

Good luck!

Some beautiful speakers you have there - congrats! 

I will pile on that the SF are just not pressurizing the room, which when you put it all together from your description, is quite large.  Try walking around the room and stopping here and there.  You should find places where you can actually 'feel' more bass peaks.  I know my pretty large (long) basement room has much more bass (too much) along the sides and towards the back.  Fortunately, the listening position gives me a good combo of punch and depth.  If you don't feel the bass substantially more in certain places then I suspect it's a pressurization issue.  

Sounds like you've tried moving them around as much as possible with little effect.  Just leave the subs on and do your best to optimize everything.  Then relax and enjoy your great setup!

Stupid question - is your judgement of bass based on critical listening with the chair in the middle or is bass lacking in general. It’s possible you’re sitting in a bass null.
Or the setup is just not optimal. Can you post pics in the virtual system section of your profile?

I guess as a side note--I usually buy used equipment because it let's me get things at a fraction of the cost that I would never be able to afford otherwise. The SFs and the MLs were both used demos from authorized dealers. With the SFs, the dealer was from out of state, so I didn't get the benefit of having someone come in and set them up. It has occurred to me that something is broken/wrong/malfunctioning, but given that the bass I am getting sounds good, my guess is that everything is working properly. It's not like the bass drivers aren't moving or producing sound. I just think there ought to be more of it.

@Audiotroy--never thought the room was that big, but you may be entirely right. I assumed it might have something to do with the fact that there is a half-wall between the living room and the kitchen. Maybe I just need the subs based on the size of the room.

@jl35--that may be it too. I really didn't expect to need subs. Or at least I was hoping that if I spent that much money I wouldn't need them. 

well why is this unexpected, bass response is directly proportional to a speakers output, vs room volume, and his space is gigantic, when you combine all three rooms contiguous volumes, so of course you need subs.

Dave and Troy

Audio Intellect NJ

I have a similar sized room. If you have ruled out wiring problems you may want to return the speakers. It wouldn't be the first time something Italian left the factory with a problem. 

I am running Yamaha NS-5000's driven by Wyred 4 Sound SX-1000R monoblocks with a Rythmik G25HP subwoofer. Bass is fine on axis. 

You may want a full surround system from what you write. Get three bids from sound installers. Big rooms are trickier. 

the OP does say that the speakers sound "great" and with subs "comes alive" .... maybe all is well, except he didn't expect to "need" subs ...

@torke 

I love great fast tight bass so I can empathize. There is a nonzero likelihood that your speakers work perfectly as designed, but they're just not right for you.

My humble suggestion would be to audition Revel Salon 2 and see if you are pleased by their sound.

Nothing else in your audio chain has the potential to cause a massive bass deficiency, so I think comparative speaker listening is the fastest way out of this predicament.

Happy listening is around the corner. Good luck and keep us posted!

OP,

I think we are zeroing in on the problem. You are looking for crazy high bass.

B&W are know to be very bass heavy. And you you owned B&W803’s and did not think they had enough bass. So, what is going on here sounds like you want a very bass heavy system. If you want accuracy down to the bass and then a big kick, you are going to have to use subwoofers. and adjust them for the kick you are missing. Amati’s are made to sound natural and accurate down to around 28 hz or so and they sound that way,

I got rid of my subwoofers when I got my Amati Traditional. Don’t miss them at all, plenty of bass, Note, Sonus Faber makes three levels of subwoofers. That Gravitas are absolutely beautiful and match the Amati.

Alternatively you could go with the current top of the line B&W 800 speakers and massive MacIntosh monoblocks. These really rock and are very bass heavy. On the other hand MacIntosh is details / high frequency light... so the might create a problem for you.

My Dali Epicon 8's sounded great without subs, but much better with a pair of REL subs...many "high priced" speakers sound much better with a pair of high quality, well matched and set up subs ...

Obviously there is something going on. 

It does sound like phase thing, this is easy to test.

Play some bass, move the balance full left, listen, then full right, does the bass go up at each extreme L/R? If so, it's a phase issue. 

Next thing would be is everything hooked up properly? Would suggest pulling everything apart, cleaning all contacts, hook it all back tougher. 

Of course speaker placement, this will make the biggest difference. Sadly best bass is usually not the best tremble on placement. You may be sitting in a null point, will just never get good bass. Again, play some bass, walk around the room. Does the bass go up and down? If you move from your listing spot is there more bass? If so, null, you got to move out of it. 

You said you have a wall of glass? Need to treat the windows, glass walls are about the worst you can have in audio. 

I would recommend getting your room measured to see where you stand graphically.  This will show any room suck outs where there is a bass void.  Room EQ Wizard is free, you just need an appropriate mic.  Maybe you have a friend nearby who could do some measurements?

I don’t know where you acquired your speakers, but if you bought $30K Speakers from a Dealer and they didn’t care enough to set them up for you, then you purchased from the wrong dealer! The specs of your speakers says the go down to 28Hz which is below what most music goes down to so your speakers are producing the desired frequencies, but their position in your room is creating a suckout at your listening position. Your Dealer should have assisted with placement so this doesn’t happen or suggested ways that you can mitigate the problem. In the end for some speakers and positions the only solution is Subs which can be placed randomly to achieve the best position. 

BTW, if your room is reasonably rectangular, I suggest examining the results from the AM Acoustic room mode simulator here.

BTW, not looking for crazy bass, but there is a completeness of sound that I get with the subs that I don't get without. The mids and upper frequencies also sound better with more fulsome bass. Not sure why, but that's what it is. I will say that the mids and hi frequencies are somewhat forward (not sibilant or harsh, just top heavy. But that could be because the bass is so weak). I listen to jazz and classical mostly. Bass drums, kick drums, double-basses, etc., are there but not there.

Thanks all. I'll give it another try. I had 803d2s before. I thought they were to bass light. I moved up to the SFs hoping that would solve the problem. It didn't. I moved up to the MLs from a Classe CA-2200. The MLs have twice the power of the CA-2200. That didn't really make a difference on the low end. I've tried every cable possible. I've moved them around to every conceivable location in my room (which is somewhat limited by the fact that it's our living room, and I can only get away with so much with my wife. Thanks again.

I don't know about packing, but assuming your speakers have rear wall reinforcement and you haven't put them in a bad modal location your next option is some room treatment.

In a very reflective room the speakers will sound excessively bright, also known as "lacking bass."  By taming the high frequency energy in the room the bass is allowed to emerge like an old shipwreck appearing at low tide.

I've found that the biggest contributors to lack of bass is either 1 speaker wired out of phase with the other, or it's a room-suckout where the position of the speakers in the room and the listening position are essentially out of phase with one another.  You might find that moving your seating position forward or backwards in the room, even a foot or so, can have a dramatic effect on bass presentation.  

Your subwoofers might be in a better position to positively affect bass reproduction at your listening position than your mains.

I would turn off the subs and focus on speaker/ room/ listening position setup first.  Once this gets optimized, then you can add in 1 subwoofer, then the 2nd subwoofer.  You'll want a helper to assist so you can stay in the listening position while they move the speakers into the proper position.  There are several resources for this including the books from Paul McGowen and the Sumiko M.A.S.T.E.R.S. setup guide that can make this process easier.

Keep in mind that once you start adding in the subs, their settings may dramatically change from what you have them set to now since they need to work with and augment the bass from your mains, not against them.  Integrating 2 subs can be quite a chore to perfect, however once completed, the entire system will come alive.

I would suggest looking at putting together a REW (Room EQ Wizard) setup and taking lots of measurements.  This can help visualize what's going on in your room and speed up the process.

A friend of mine, let’s call him M, has the SF Amatis and another friend of mine, P,  and I went over there recently for a listening session.

M had been tweaking his speaker placement for a good while and while the speakers completely disappeared, the center of the soundstage felt too low and the music felt flat and not as full as with our speakers (Revel Salons and F328Be speakers, respectively), even supported by dual subs. 

We had no idea why this was the case but we left a bit underwhelmed by the Amatis, not given their price, and it wasn’t for a lack of trying by M to set them up. 

It sure sounds like something is wired out of phase. Try reversing one set of speaker cables. 
 

As  mentioned - If new, the woofer suspension will loosen up over time and start to sound as designed, but can sound restricted early on.

Double check that the polarity of the speaker wires is correct at both ends....you can even take a battery with two leads soldered on each end to check the woofers are wired correctly internally. The positive lead to positive input (plus neg to neg) should cause the woofer to surge forward...otherwise they're wired in reverse.

Bass output is relative to the volume it has to fill.  Your room is large with a large volume of space to fill.  It's possible that your room has some bass issues, and the main woofers aren't up to filling it with low frequency.  Subs can be a good, simple solution.  My speakers had plenty of bass at our old house, but I needed a sub to fill the space of our current room.

Do you have any bass controls you can turn up?  You could also try bi-amping to the woofers with a separate amp that has an independent volume control, but both of these solutions could have some complications and affect on vocals in the 80hz to 200/270hz range in addition to lower bass. 

It's not something I've experimented with, so am only suggesting it as a possible option to consider, but perhaps some sort of parametric EQ with good adjustment options below 100hz could help if other solutions aren't satisfactory to you.

I have Sonus Faber Cremona Ms. I also have two KEF R400B subs to enhance the bass. My amp is a Macintosh MA8950. I know my room has some issues, but I'm ok with using the subs. Sometimes, I turn them off for specific listening, but most of the time they're on. I don't see it as a problem, more of a solution. 

Are your speakers new? If so, as others have suggested you may need to give them a little time to break in. If that’s not the issue, what speakers did you own before these and were you satisfied with the bass performance? if not, it’s possible that your personal preferences are such that subs will be necessary to meet your expectations.

did you buy the speakers from a dealer in your area? If so, and they are relatively new your dealer should help you with this problem. Maybe he could bring different speakers or a different amp to your room and experiment.  As others suggested, these are quality speakers, which should make enough bass, but “enough“ is subjective and you have too much money invested to be dissatisfied. If you bought them from a quality dealer, you should have a partner in solving this. Good luck.

In over 25 years in high end audio, and owning several high-end, full range speakers, I never experienced any speaker, in any of my rooms, that exhibited a lack of bass.  If anything, the speakers sometime exhibit just the opposite, too much bass.  Also, I never experienced having a set of speakers that were internally wired incorrectly.  Sounds like a room, associated equipment, or a combination of the two issue to me.  Happy listening.          

@celtic66 all about synergy. I run Nordost Tyr 2 XLRs, Frey 2 power cord on DAC and amp, Heimdall 2 power cord on streamer. Accurate, fast, transparent and dynamic. Combined with Audience FrontRow speaker cables just excellent synergy. I wouldn’t run Nordost Heimdall 2 interconnects and speaker cables in the same system though.

Also not a Nordost cable fan, except for digital.  They do nice digital cables.  Anyway, they do trend towards thinner sound.  My non-custom made cables are Decware and Duelund.  Yes, Decware.  Duelund makes very nice simple speaker cables.  Cheers

@torke audiophile speakers are more about accuracy and quality of bass rather than quantity. I don’t know if this is your first pair of high end speakers. If you need bass that rattles walls you need subwoofers and you don’t need expensive speakers. Otherwise you will get the right amount of accurate bass with your current SFs. 
 

Also one other thing to note - your Nordost Heimdall 2 cables don’t do you any favors in the bass department. Once again, these cables are about accuracy and transparency. 

This thread discusses a similar problem.  

It's like the whole system comes alive when the subs are added. I guess I just thought that with the Sonus Fabers and the ML 536s I wouldn't need subwoofers.

They sound great. They just have no bass. The second I turn on the KC 62s the sound is 10x better. I can't believe two $1500 subs make the sound that much better than the MLs and the SFs alone. I must be doing something wrong. 

One wall is windows. Floors are wood, but covered by a rug. Plenty of furniture in room. 

I have a large and irregular room... 35' by 25' by 7'... highly irregular... they sound spectacular in my room. So, your room sounds good. Unless of course it is all tile, and windows and reflective surfaces. 

Any way to upload photos?

Living room 18x16x9

but room has two pillars on one side then a hall way. Which makes the room 18x19x9. And then open to kitchen with half wall. Which makes room 30x19x9. But one corner has a 45 degree corner for a fire place. 

I own Sonus Faber Amati Traditional. There is no lack of bass or treble. I power them with ARC 160 amp in triode mode... so 70wpc. I seldom see them using more than a watt or two... sometimes ten at peaks. I can turn them up far beyond where I ever would want to listen and they are clear and non-compressed.

A couple things. I took off the little plate jumpers and put in high quality ones. I noticed a lack of bass once. I was going to reposition the speakers to improve bass, when I realized one of the jumpers have come off and one of the woofers was not working. I put it back on... bass deficiency went away.

Have you owned audiophile speakers before? Just wondering... audiophile speakers are designed to accurately reproduce the sound they are given... not to accentuate it... some speakers are designed to be very hot on top and overdo the bass. Just wondering about your expectations.

Just for fun I recently decided to completely redo my speaker placement. So I started with them a couple feet from the wall (the location that reinforces the bass) and worked them out until they were five feet out. I will say they really sounded great in all positions with only slightly more bass close to the wall. I ended up with them in the original position, about five feet out with no toe in... allowing them to disappear and cast a soundstage about eight feet back and beyond the speakers on each side., 

These are exceptionally natural, musical speakers which do not need enormous amounts of power to sound spectacular across the audio spectrum.

I guess we need more information from you. Your complete system with photos in your venue... create a virtual system in the area to do that... and we can probably help. Also, a little history of you and the music you like would br really helpful.

Naim nd5 xs2

Nordost heimdall 2 rca

classe audio cp-800

Nordost Heimdall 2 xlr

mark levinson 536 monos

Nordost Heimdall 2 sp wire w Nordost jumpers

sonus faber Amati traditions

2x KEF KC62

AC - Tara labs and audio quest.