In another thread about how to A/B compare speakers for a home I was thinking to myself, maybe the skills a reviewer may use to convey pros and cons of a speaker to readers is a bad skill to use when we evaluate hardware and gear?
I'm not against science, or nuance at all. I was just thinking to myself, do I really want to spend hours A/B testing and scoring a speaker system I want to live with?
I do not actually. I think listening for 2 days to a pair of speakers, and doing the same to another pair I need to focus first on what made me happy. Could I listen to them for hours? Was I drawn to spend more time with music or was I drawn to writing minutiae down?
And how much does precise imaging really do for my enjoyment by the way? I prefer to have a system that seems endless. As if I'm focusing my eyes across a valley than to have palpable lung sounds in my living room.
Anyway, just a thought that maybe we as consumers need to use a different skill set when buying than reviewers do when selling.
A good reviewer has to point out areas of interest/concern so that prospective buyer can have an ear out for such matters. That means trying to put into words qualities that are not easily described and it might mean exaggerating a bit so that the reader understands what is being described. This might distort overall perspective. By hearing a vast array of different speakers under differing conditions, a reviewer does develop skill in identifying a lot more subtle differences and areas of concern, and these should be part of a good review.
If you have the privilege of hearing a speaker in your own home, you can try to listen critically for the same things mentioned by the reviewer or you can just listen and judge for yourself. The best judgment, to me, is how much enjoyment you get from the listening session and whether the speaker plays well with all sorts of music. Listening for particular weaknesses and the minutia might help you determine what could be a source of future irritation once you own the speaker, so it doesn't hurt to do some critical listening. But, it is the overall simple enjoyment and ability of the music to hold your attention that matters most. For me, the biggest difference between different sets of otherwise decent sounding speakers is that ability to keep my attention and involvement in the music; too many speakers sound boring after a short time.
I agree with the comments above. I know my system is good when I can't draw myself away and want to hear the next song, and the next...
I think reviews can give a potential buyer a basic idea of how a component performs, but it is very subjective and it depends on the other gear in the reviewer's system. I see reviews of certain pieces of gear and have to wonder if the rest of the reviewer's system is neutral and revealing enough to really make judgements.
All I can say about my gear is how it sounds in my system with my cables, etc.
Over many decades and much equipment I'm trying to think of a single piece I purchased based solely on a single professional review. Early on prior to internet/social media my purchases all based on listening at dealers and shows. Since social media I need to see many user reviews over a relatively long term to consider purchase, professional reviews mean very little. Their opinions based on relatively short term listening, likely in a system very different from mine, and agendas not fully disclosed. Professional reviewers obsolete for me.
Obviously critical listening skills are bad. Without them you might be able to just enjoy the music. Or not. Without them you'll never have to worry, or if not, you won't have the skills to fix a problem you can't diagnose.
For OP, how do you distinguish critical listening skills from plain old ordinary ones? What skills do you use to set up a new system? Listen to music? Is it really a shortage of hearing skills or just audio sloth?
It is easy to get caught up in something that a speaker does that is not commonly found in such abundance and the thrill of that experience can cloud judgment; after some time, that very quality that attracted you to that speaker becomes its bane.
There is a brand of speakers, I will not say which, that is extremely dynamic and exciting sounding, and most speakers sound comparatively lifeless, yet after a time, many listeners grow tired of its bright, etched, hyper-detailed sound. It helps to have some experience and critical abilities to identify what may become an annoyance in the future.
I agree that A/B short term listening skills can get in the way of choosing good speakers. This strategy can easily work against you. By moving your minds eye (ear) around the sound stage you are evaluating things like detail, transients of one frequency or instrument, or decay of an instrument or sound. While these are important aspects of performance they do not add up to great sounding speakers. This can add up to analytical, highly detailed, fast, and lean sound with great bass and slam. The gestalt of these can completely be devoid of music, warmth, beauty and natural emotional involvement. Great scientific instruments for anlysing sound, but not for reproducing music.
So, there can be a downside. Some folks, from the very start get this and pursue the musical center... but in my experience they are few and far between and start (virtually without exception) with tube equipment and stay with it. I was not one of these people... I learned the hard way by constructing an incredible detailed system which was emotionally involving. In my defense I have heard many much worse... and much more costly.
The longer term listening... A/B over a week (my preference)... but a couple of days works is the only way to access what is important. How much you are drawn in. and the sound field... you almost discover the attributes in reverse of short term... by starting with the gestalt and then working in on the major strengths and weakness in a natural priority.
1- Critical listening does not have to be critical in nature. Just relax and listen- take your time. Before long you will form an opinion - do you like or dislike the sound and why? It should not come down to minute differences- they should be obvious.
2- If you don't take your time and listen to lots of music any irritants in the sound will show up over the long haul and you may not like that situation.
Or my acoustics studies and experiments enlightened me...
Critical skills used to compared speakers are useless...
( save for reviewers who trust their "taste" and dont give a damn about acoustics conditions the look fixated on their new speakers which is ridiculous )
i use my critical skills not merely to buy speakers...But to embed them properly in a dedicated acoustic room...
I just bought new one, my last powered one stop functioning, i adressed the acoustic for the new one, bought the right tube pre-amp...And i modify the speakers vent hole for the better and the tweeter directional cell after few days of listening...
This ask for real listening skills unlike reviewers listening one speakers after the other in the same non dedicated room to sell you costlier upgrade...
The OP then ask the wrong question in the wrong way... And yes i want imaging and encompassing soundfield and natural timbre...No compromise here sorry.... And it is the third time i designed it with three different speakers pair, thanks to acoustics principle and to my learned acoustics skills..
Conclusion :
Each speakers ask for his dedicated room settings.. .. Listening different speakers in the same living room space without modification make no acoustic sense...i dont read reviewers...
Best to study acoustics principle...
The best theoretical book is Akpan J Essien "sounds sources"
The best practical acoustics books is Floyd Toole...
Between theoretical and practical all the articles of Edgar Choueiri....
By the way acoustics science dont change with the price of the speakers...I can embed well any speakers at any price...
Critical listening must be learned and acquired by experimenting with acoustics principle in a room...
Not by changing the gear pieces and calling this my taste and listening skills.....
Is it so difficult to understand why ?
If you dont understand how to create imaging and soundstage in a room by yourself, using any speakers, according to recognized acoustics principles about reflections, absorption, diffusion, it is meaningless to speak of listening skills of reviewers who change the gear piece4 and call their branded name products evaluation "knowledge"...It is marketting not knowledge...
You don't negate the differentiation of speakers by understanding and properly implementing acoustics. "Properly" with a proviso, certainly insofar it's not universally accepted what constitutes the right acoustic properties of a listening room in relation to a given pair of speakers, ears and gear. Acoustics aren't everything, although a vital part of the "equation."
i can do acoustics specific implementation with any system or speakers nevermind the one chosen at any cost, what matter is the end result for my ears with the chosen speakers for my budget, in a specific room...
Acoustics principles dont change with the branded name speakers design...You do the acoustic instalment in function of the speakers design anyway...
Acoustics implementation is not buying panels either , it is a business for people who cannot use a dedicated room only a living room ....
it is using the principles of acoustics to design a dedicated room for a main user...
Great Hall acoustics is not small room acoustics, it is very different business, reflections for example are not used in the same way...
Most people had no idea about acoustics anyway, it is easy to see reading audio thread...
In a word : the same system/speakers in a living room compared to a well designed dedicated room will sound totally different...No comparison at all in my three experiments... For sure the synergy between speakers and the gear
matter to begin with starting the process. But at the end you hear not a dac or a pre-amp but the speakers/room which you must learn how to tune...
In this sense Acoustics rule audio...
Most people ignore this because they dont have a room only for sound, nor the time to study and experiment...
They bought the costlier a few panels and this is all done... But in most case it is not done even if they dont know it..
There is no S.Q. relation between BEFORE and AFTER acoustics implementation nevermind the gear system chosen...
In this sense gear dont matter, pick the best you can at the price you can, but at the end this optimization of the chosen system cannot be bought with a few panels... Marketing dont replace acoustics...
You don’t negate the differentiation of speakers by understanding and properly implementing acoustics. "Properly" with a proviso, certainly insofar it’s not universally accepted what constitutes the right acoustic properties of a listening room in relation to a given pair of speakers, ears and gear. Acoustics aren’t everything, although a vital part of the "equation."
Reviewers can easily drive you down the equipment rabbit hole. I concurr with @mahgister that paying attention to the room acoustics is of primary importance if you ever want to truly be able to appreciate the differences that various equipments provide. Otherwise your are truly driving blind. Sure, you will be able to enjoy one piece more than the other, but it will never reveal the true potential of any. You start building a house with a solid foundation, same goes with a listening room.
I am a huge fan of music have been for as long as I can remember. I have thousands of song lyrics in my head. Ive been told I have an audio-graphic memory. Meaning I remember what I hear and I can mimic it. It's why i speak other languages like a native. But for the life of me I have never understood what transients are, or decay or holographic 3D effect or even what slam means. I have a good system that I think plays really well. But reading here and listening to reviewers online I dont ever hear what they describe. I recently went thru a play list of music a speaker maker Sibelius. He had 10 songs that he uses to rate systems. Each had a specific trait that allowed him to rate the systems capabilities. I went thru each song listening for what he was hearing. <shrug> I guess I kinda heard those things. I didnt get the classical music traits or the wacko organ music but it sounded good to me. Granted I just have a regular room but everything he described as what makes a good system i heard like 40% or maybe I did hear them and didnt recognize them for what they were. All this to say and to ask. How do you know when you have arrived? I like my system. It does well with all genre and I hear things before that i havent heard from music Ive listened to all my life. Should I just shut up, relax and enjoy the music? Or am i on the precipice of miraculous sound and I just dont realize it? I think this ruins my enjoyment more than anything. Knowing I have good gear but my setup etc my be hamstringing the entire thing. Ahh well
When any system gear at any price is well installed and well acoustically optimized ,then you know it because your critical listenings skills are put to sleep, they are no more necessary.
Not because your system is the best in the world, but because any well acoustically well balance speakers/room experience is highly satisfying in itself.
What irritate us is a system which awake our critical listening attitude because we perceive clearly an unbalance set of factors,..
If we adress them and takes care of the acoustics problems, our critical attitude go to sleep and we listen music not sound defects.
Any system gear/room at any price well done will gave pleasure...
Acoustics rules audio... Sorry for the sellers of gear upgrades...
i could upgrade my 1000 bucks system (not the headphone it is the best in the world ) i dont need and dont want to... I call that the minimal acoustical satisfaction threshold...
My budget is limited and i must listen nearfield with small speakers now. but i felt no limitation, because it is OK acoustically for timbre, holography etc...
my top system choice anyway for music now is my headphone which beat most speakers system save top speakers in top room .
Way too true, and that in itself is even less so. Anything that malleable in the day to day light of day in the HO of any given scenario can create a memory of commonality fractured by view and expression given of an impression.
Reality in itself seems to have a slippery substance, right down to the quantum level...one can only hope ’this is where the Edge IS!"
But I’m beginning to doubt that as well.
Does that change how I listen and judge what I perceive from any given arrangement of items playing what may or not be sounds in a pattern I’m not personally familiar with?
Well, Maybe.
Is it engaging, skillful, can you dance to it? Does the gear make it sound like looking at a fishbowl or on the edge of a stage?
I have expressed this before, so forgive the redundancy. I am a Cognitive Psychologist and spent most of my professional life (now retired) measuring people's perceptions of products and correlating those perceptions with product design features to help designers and engineers improve the experience of their products.
It is important to consider that there are two different types of perception. One is based upon the a physical description of a given product and the other is based upon the emotional response of "liking" the product. Typically, two different types of people are used to obtain each of these perceptual judgements. Physical descriptions (probably what corresponds to critical listening) are typically provided by trained experts with proven sensory skills. "Liking" is provided by the perceptual judgements of untrained consumers who are the target audience for the product. The interesting finding in such research is that not all physical qualities to which experts may be attuned correlate with liking. In the end, product developers need only attend on those physical qualities that are associated with what the target audience likes.
Now, sitting at home the target audience is a sample of one, you. So, the first question is, do you like it? Secondly, it is probably helpful to know why you like it if you want buy things that improve liking in the future. For that you need to know what physical qualities are unique to that experience. You, the listener, might or might not have the perceptual skills to do that. Either way, the first question is, do you like it?
Maybe it’s just me, but the longer I try to AB things, the things start to sound the same. Sure, some equipment sounds night and day different, but when the equipment sounds close from the start, it really blends after a few back and forths, I can no longer hear the differences.
The interesting finding in such research is that not all physical qualities to which experts may be attuned correlate with liking. In the end, product developers need only attend on those physical qualities that are associated with what the target audience likes.
Oh, absolutely. What audiophiles often don't understand is that companies like Bose are _very_ much driven by cognitive science. The depth of research they do into creating products which are liked, and therefore have financial value in the marketplace is breathtaking. Absolute perfection of an audio signal is irrelevant. Engineering metrics only matter so long as they are correlated to being "liked." Their success in the marketplace speaks for itself.
I start with "do I like it better than something else"?
If I do, I can analyze why but I won't even bother analyzing if I don't feel drawn in by the sound. Over time I've learned what nuances I like, so if I read reviews I look for those specific things to determine if a product interests me.
If you don't want to do any critical listening, then just treat it like normal. What I mean is just listen to it. Do you like it "better" maybe, or swap back once and see if it's now "worse".
My thought is if it makes you happy, holds your attention, you are going to use it. Then it's "better". This entire process is suppose to bring joy. If it does not, then it's not the right piece.
... paying attention to the room acoustics is of primary importance if you ever want to truly be able to appreciate the differences that various equipments provide.
Acoustics rules audio... Sorry for the sellers of gear upgrades...
I agree with the stated consequence mentioned by @baylinor, and how paying attention to acoustics (which can mean a lot, really, and depending on the context could point in different directions on how to implement acoustic measures, or not) provides for a better foundation of assessing the differences of a variation of audio gear.
However, contrary to the claim made by @mahgister above I don't see how that should negatively impact sellers of audio equipment - quite the opposite; better optimized acoustics will benefit all levels of audio gear/solutions/configurations and thus tell them apart and make them sound their best, not level them out.
Some speakers principles with a more narrow directivity behavior - horn-loaded and line sources in particular - don't call for the same degree of acoustic measures, and quite a few people, not least the ones with horn-loaded speakers, actually prefer a more lightly damped listening room for sounding more natural. What's interesting is seeing those who previously owned direct radiating, dynamic driver-fitted and low efficiency speakers and how they rid their listening room of damping materials, significantly even, with the coming of high eff. horn-loaded speakers. There's also something to be said of a listening environment that's a naturally inhabited area with furniture, plants, paintings, rugs/skins, shelves and other that aids overall mental well-being here, as opposed to a more clinically looking and heavily treated/damped space or man cave/dungeon even.
Sorry for verging off-topic, @erik_squires - I guess I'll leave it at that.
And how much does precise imaging really do for my enjoyment by the way?
@erik_squiresA speaker that can't do precise imaging is having problems that cause that. They may affect the enjoyment of the speaker in other ways that may not be immediately obvious. These days any quality speaker should be able to image quite well.
That is after all what Blumlein's stereo concept is all about.
Agree if precise imaging is not happening that may be a symptom of something not quite right elsewhere. Precise imaging always matters to me personally.
I was speaking if you read my sentence about sellers of "upgrade" half the time useless when acoustics is not care for ( Not just room acoustics by the way )
Guess why and how i modify the speakers i just bought ? Acoustics knowledge ..Upgrade unnecessary... The venthole design of most speakers is not done as it must be done because of cost and esthetics... Same for the tweeter physical design in many case...
I modified all my bookshelf speakers for stupendous improvement... Acoustics rules...
However, contrary to the claim made by @mahgister above I don’t see how that should negatively impact sellers of audio equipment - quite the opposite
And like said atmasphere any good speakers is able to do imaging well by design and by acoustics knowledge used to pair and optimize the room /speakers acoustics.
Without acoustics basic applied in any room speakers dont work optimally ...
I don't think you need to spend hours or days comparing 2 sets of speakers in order to figure out which ones you prefer... what I do is I have 4 or 5 musical passages (from different musical genres that I frequently listen to) and that I chose for things like SQ, soundstage clarity, vocal / instrumental clarity, etc. and I play those and alternate between the 2 pairs of speakers. Most times, I have noticed differences / formed preferences within maybe the first 5 minutes or so of careful listening. I have also found that at least half the time the sonic difference between 2 different pairs of speakers is almost instantaneously obvious... then I just need to figure our which sonic presentation my ears prefer...
During the past few years I have reducing my collection, replacing gear, rolling tubes, etc. So I have had the same challenges, thousands of times.
To me:
A. 'critical listening skills' are just that... critical. When needed, I listen to the attack of a bowed violin, the fingering of a oboe, the plucking Fender bass, or cymbal crass. I listen accuracy of tone and harmonic structure. I listen to decay (is it natural, truncated, over-extended?) I also listen for micro-dynamics (did a flute-players air wobble, or did a tape-splice change the volume of a acoustic guitar?).
Yet, critical listening is for a comparison, and should never be a life-style.
B. the other-side of the coin is the wholistic or gestalt experience eloquently discussed above by so many...
I prefer many days of hearing music on new gear (especially speakers), allowing myself to remember this music played on my earlier gear... the result is very satisfying. I know my efforts have paid-off when I relax and truly hear the music.
In other words, I am no longer searching for a sound, I can simply let the music come to me...
In my home, critical listening and casual hearing both play a vital role.
Although engagement/resonated/satisfying is more important than critical listening, critical listening and engagement are not mutually exclusive. Both critical listening + engagement are used to evaluate components for potential purchase, engagement is what I seek in my everyday use in my audio chain.
@phusis I agree with you about different types of speakers needing different types of room acoustic treatments. The apogee duetta 2 speakers I own sound better with little to no room treatments, though I do have them 82" from the wall behind them. My dynamic speakers sound too bright without some room treatments.
There's no endless system, this is a hobby with no price tag. For crtical listening, I would just take out my Luxman 590AXII. Its the amp to have for audiophiles, I use this amp to do audiophile listening and love it.
@inagroove
"Fertile ground?" Wear your boots...no, not the 'on the town' pair, nooo....
...sometimes waders and shoulder-length rubber gloves seem to be advisable....
I've trended to align with @mahgisterthat ultimately The Room dictates what will occur within it, and care taken with that in mind and hand will determine if one's expenditures will yield the desired effects....
The fact that I've seemed to always have been doomed to that side trip in the rabbit hole hasn't stopped me from making the attempt to tame the dragon and make it purrr...
If not perfection (typ.? no....), at least to 'practical satisfaction'....because Reality Manipulation is a bitch. Having adopted active room eq quite awhile ago, it helps but does not cure that gulf between 'There' and a mere reproduction of 'there'...
Long-term dipole and omni sort, I finally bet on 'Ignoring the Room', quite like a variant of HT surround with no screen other than one's audible version of one.
(...Yes, there is a screen, but that's beside the point but effected by....but...🤷♂️...)
One means is running a pair of calibrated mics to a pair of eq's in parallel and monitor in R/T....tweak to sweet....in the midst.
A little extreme, but when running this, that, and assorted junque you wring out of it all what it can achieve and you like....
My argument about precise imaging was about how in person listening I don’t get the same imaging illusion. If I close my eyes I can’t place instruments nearly as well as I demand from my stereo.
I argue that we seek out imaging that is too precise because we lack the visual information. It’s like Kurosawa adding smoke to a volcano because the film won’t convey heat.
Whatever your thoughts are on imagine though, it's just another detail which we may be so critical of we fail to actually enjoy the experience.
If we can agree that we see differences in art or beauty that are are a consequence of physical, mental, and perhaps emotional, we begin to see the complexity in which are audio preferences are shaped.
We generally arrange our music systems to fit our surroundings. The speakers won't care, the cables won't either, if you are only getting 30% of the performance from them. If we want more precision, like picking up on a fine cable or vibration control, we need to push further.
IMO we need to get our rooms right if we want to learn to listen critically, otherwise there are too many variables. We will find good sound, but only with a perfectly set room, with extreme attention to reflection points (if you want imaging), etc. will the fruits of your labors be rewarded.
I've learned to set up my systems, and it's always meant repositioning speakers (not dedicated space most of the years). I've really been able to appreciate the nuances of a Nordost cable, or a dedicated line. IME most box speakers want to be 4-5 feet from the rear wall and a few feet from the sides. Put your speakers on beach towels, make big moves with them, look and create a listening hall in your room, create symmetry, soften the space with rugs and some diffusion. Play with filling the corners with pillows and place blankets around. Start big and refine.
So many times we have huge speakers in a shoe box room, inches from the walls with little thought of your hall, your room, the greater speaker, gets strangled in the chaos of confusion and suppression of the sound.
I would suggest an approach that's brought me some fun...think of your next listening session as hosting a concert in your space. Position your gear to get the most out of it (this has to be part of the audiophile process IMO). It might take 5-10 'concerts' to do this, but once your found your best stage or hall, or atmosphere, and volume, where there is no strain in the amp or overhang in the bass, your critical job is done so enjoy (until you pop in a new interconnect lol).
From this 'fundamental' positioning (whether it's permanent if dedicated or whatever) you have a new base to experiment with tone from a new tube, or a new power cable, etc. Most important thing to me is to enjoy this experience, have fun, and learn to have those performers emotion and passion in your room. Like anything else in life it takes lots of work and energy. Good luck.
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