Listening skills: How do you learn to listen?

Not necessary, I’m quite good at patting myself on the back...!😎

Looks like someone went to a lot of effort to delete several of their posts in this thread. Hmmmmm.

“ I see the OP as offering self learned evaluations. Otherwise, read The Scarlet Letter". MC's room is basically red. ‘

Most interesting  that you make reference to “Scarlet Letter”  as such was a common terminology for an early male orientated contraceptive,  whereby the softer upper intestine of a a swine or calf was formed into a covering for the Phalus... tho by its very nature had to be used freshly procured and thereby subject to a certain degree of haemoglobin leakage in use.

 

IT is being taken care of. Time to move on.  People really should verify their facts before opening their mouths sometimes on internet forums.

Thecarpathian, very good comeback. 👍Although be careful your other hand doesn't wield a knife: self-sabatoge concerning posts. 🤔

I did that once, none of my shirts fit after....

IT is being taken care of. Time to move on.

Excellent!
Baker, a round of Yankee Doodles, on me!

You are a Yankee Doodle dandy. 😄

It is just that you need time to develop an ear to the hear the differences and put meaning to those differences. Maybe your friends can not hear the difference the better equipment makes because they do not have the ear to hear it, if there is one thing i have learned over the years is that there are a lot of people that say they can not hear or care about the differences in speakers/equipment. I find this heard to believe especially when the small changes/differences can be so dramatic. It all comes down to being happy with your system with your music so who do we really need to please, ourselves.

This is a terrific topic that is crucial to becoming an audiophile.

I just don't understand why there is so much negativity floating around that is mixed with such a high degree of abuse it leads some to become so distressed they turn into threatening menaces. 

Wow that is horrid. Rather than saying something is crap, surely it would be better to explain why you dislike it and let others make up their own minds. By saying something is crap what you are really saying is I know better and anyone who disagrees with me is crap. That's a dreadful approach. All forms of abuse are unacceptable. It doesn't matter if it's in the work place, the home, forums, or indeed anywhere, anytime or anyplace. It's abhorrent, intolerable and it needs to stop. Work places require respect (although sadly it's not always policed) and society should demand the same.
 
Far better to educate than to put down and treat people as imbeciles simply because they might not know what you know or disagree with you.

So MC Yammer thought well enough to delete his slanderous BS but kept it on long enough to gather his sycophants to pile on. How many PMs did that take?

Now they're all into this, "why all the acrimony BS."
Talk about leading one by the nose.

The usual provocateur refuses to leave well enough alone and despite his pleas and conditions to the contrary, stirs up more trouble with his patently false claims as to why he's in the mess he is. It's all on him.

That, and the veiled threat implied in his reasons for starting and ending threads: to set up stocking horses with which to label others who he's had run-ins with. One must have a bogey-man to look like a hero.

Couple that with his deletions so as to not leave a paper trail and leave the late comers with the thought of "why is all this happening" reeks of desperation and the endless need for attention.

I bring this up only because not long ago I happened upon a thread I hadn't looked at for awhile only to see myself and others accused of participating in a scheme to get MC in trouble with his state local medical board. To know the rats in ones head on a first name basis must be rewarding in itself but a real nuisance to the rest of us. Like I said in that other thread that got closed down, this is his hobby horse, his go-to for provoking.

Pity those that fall for it.

All the best,
Nonosie

Interesting discussion and long overdue.  There are some who continue to say some very cruel and disparaging remarks.  Maybe it is time to clean things up.  I thought this discussion group was designed to share knowledge rather than cut others down.  We need to realize there are some who are just beginners and they are searching for knowledge.  We need to put ourselves in their shoes and remember what it was like when we first began.

we have a lot of knowledge in this group and we should be anxious to help others.

What a bunch of garbage coming from an audiophile wannabe 

What are some of you rambling on about. The OP simply censored anyone who didn’t answer how he wanted posters to do so.
Comply or your a villain...
Childish man who constantly creates the shite show then plays victim.
Maybe that reality check of reducing the " Hall of Fame Miller Carbon" by nearly 25% and still no sale hurt that big ego.
Fear not apologists...in the not to distant future I sense the vast majority here will be once again lathered in majestic tales sounding like late night infomercials
with him head cheerleader of all things Origin Live.

I think nonoise is correct....

Get an ear training app for your phone used by musicians to train their ears.  I use "Functional Ear Trainer" for iPhones but there's a bunch of them.  Or, get with a piano and sing scales.  I can identify any note or chord just by listening to it because I have "acquired perfect pitch"  which you an get too but you have to be patient but with an app you can practice anytime  or any place.  

We listened music and sound first to learn to read our own soul....This is an unconscious learning to begin with...

After that with some musical maturity we learn to consciously listen sounds and music relation itself....

The circle is then  closed...

We listened to learn and we learn to listen....

I hope to be clear , if not, my post is for once short....😁😊

like @millercarbon, I love music,  I started listening, I mean REALLY LISTENING to music in the late 1960's.  As my father graduated to better systems, I learned about musical timbre.  I made myself responsible for recording chorus and big band recording on 1/4" reel-to-reel tape recording systems.  

After college, I graduated to large Bozak speaker systems and ARC electronics, improving my listening as I progressed to better speaker and electronics. 

For me, it's always about reproduction of classical music recordings.

I was generally happy with speaker Bozak Concert Grand system, but heard shortcomings in the midrange, also the imaging and soundstage. 

My nest speakers were Acoustat Model 4's. Truly excellent but could never quite work out the issues with the interface.  Transient response and smoothness was outstanding and response from the mids through the mid highs was flawless, but I could never get the imaging I wanted nor the frequency extremes in my room,  And they were literally different-sounding with very small head movements.  Vice-in-the-head to aj extreme.

So I started to develop my own speakers.  Failed often, but made progress after each attempt and learned with each attempt.  Tried single driver full range with limited success.  Not fulfilling and with some nasty problems (still might be good for midrange applications, but not for me).   

I discovered Herron electronics and was able to develop better systems because if the superior electronics Herron produced.

Now I'm satisfied with my own system, the speakers customized to my listening environment to reproduce the original recording as best as I can make possible.

Bottom line is that it's always been all about the love of the music.. I have no reason for upgrade except to see if the speakers can be as satisfying in a smaller footprint and closer field use.

How sad.  Someone brings up a wonderful topic about a subject we all love and it, like so many recent posts, it degenerates into finger pointing and hate. Jealousy and politics rule. There are s**theads everywhere. 

Wouldn't it be great if this forum would be only be used to exchange ideas on how to better enjoy music!  Most of the other forums are, why are there so many mean people on this one. 

By the way, poor boy sounds great nowadays on my system, but it's just average in terms of quality recordings.  It's not the kind of recording I feel I could educate myself from.  Could be because the system is fully digital?

Yes that would be great. See nonoise post above.

Politics? Please elaborate what that has to do with it. The issue was forgery and slander. It has been documented and addressed by the moderators as it should be. Nothing political about it. 

Controversy often generates clicks. And attention. I will not pretend to "analyze" MC or his behavior toward others but will note that in an MC generated thread last night regarding the acquisition of listening skills ( think this same topic, recast in a different thread), I offered a good faith, fairly comprehensive run down on the evolution of my experience, which took account of different aspects, parts of the range from low to high, how that related to equipment I used, and the reasons my views evolved over time.
Perhaps prolix, but I identified the aspects of sound that were important at different intervals in my personal evolution based on learning, experience and seat time, including exposure to live instruments.
I suggested that one did not have to be a trained musician to know what different horns, a piano or double bass sound like and in brief, my "learning" coincided with access to new and better equipment as well as a growing interest in other facets--the technology, its history, the studio and how a particular recording was originally made. I also learned about, and started to pursue listening of entire bodies of music that were originally outside of my ken, but now, with learning, have a better understanding of the history of performance and players and where the music and performance fit into a larger picture, musically/culturally/whatever.
I think age has been kind to me. My high frequency hearing certainly isn’t what it was when I was 20 years old, but I’d like to think the compensation is that, due to a lot of years at this (devoting considerable time, energy, effort and money, among other things) , I have pretty good discernment of what I’m hearing. (Whether I like or prefer one thing to another is a different question).
My contribution, such as it was, probably did not cut any new ground, but was dismissed as "same old;" I was characterized as part of some camp (read: school of thought) here at Audiogon who made claims and should "put up or shut up." I don’t remember making any claims of any sort over the years, other than those based on my experience (or a question due to the lack of it), but I’ve been posting here since 2006.
As I think I made clear in both my original post and its follow up in the redux thread of this topic, I claimed no guruism and expressly eschewed it. There is some science to be had and I have found relevant subject matter experts, whether or not audiophiles, to help fill in the gaps in my own understanding.
But, we are in a field that is as littered with low cost consumer electronics as it is with overpriced baubles and the commercialism of some of it reeks.
Sorting through that thicket is one of the more practical aspects of embracing hobbyist audio, a subject I did not previously address. But one that I think forms the backbone of this forum-- people who are writing to figure something out because there is something they want to buy, something won’t work or some other practical question that may require more than passing familiarity with the gear in question as well as potential technical issues that may go over my head as a non-engineer.
I will say that MC can generate attention. I think he is a good writer, but so much is wasted on "gotcha’s" that it becomes a question whether to read or engage, or simply be amused. Beyond that, I will not venture. I don’t necessarily want him banned, warned or any punitive measures taken. I think all that stuff gets sorted out at a level that is not topical to this forum.
Personally, I find sparring on the Internet to be a waste on so many levels--from basic questions to the more philosophical and sometimes spirited debates over larger issues beyond a particular product or comparison of same. It is not only a waste of time/page space, but engenders ill-will.
I’m sure if I go through MC’s 10,000 posts in 2 years, I’ll find some things we’d agree on (or not). It doesn’t really matter. The question is whether good will is being fostered, or people are put off by MC.
There is no vote being taken, but I figured I am as entitled as anyone here to make these comments in view of what I’ve seen here.
May all of your listening sessions be enjoyable.
Bill Hart

Recording engineering curriculum at Full Sail in the mid 90s (during the award streak that was and always will be, unprecedented), followed by Ear Training One, Two and Three at Musician’s Institute in Hollywood (BIT for me). I used some of that training to professionally help the hearing impaired (A-List Hollywood types) and other major players shop for high end systems, including some that were gifted. Once you’ve made it that far, you have to know what you’re listening for and bring it with you. You can’t ask, “Do you have any blah, blah blah on blah, or blah?" And if you’re shopping, it really helps if the salesman is out of his element with the music. Once you get past listening to him try to make excuses as to why he doesn’t know it, he won’t have any practice under his belt telling you what you’re hearing and why this particular product is the best at doing what it’s doing. But be paid is the best way to bring out what you know, especially if you do the teaching. 

mapman miller and others:  stop this ridiculous catfight.  The rest of us don't give a s*** if you're badmouthing each other.
Grow up.

What was the topic again??

Now you see why I'd rather feed the chickens. My chicken cackle a whole lot less..

Regards

@whart 

“ 10,000 posts in 2 years, ” = Personality Disorder 

Now you see why I'd rather feed the chickens. My chicken cackle a whole lot less..

Well you know out here in Vermont we have lots of farms that have chickens, horses and pigs, and I am sure if you like feeding them they would gladly let you, for free.  And while you are at it if you want you can feed and milk the cows, shovel the sh*t, fertilize, till, plant and harvest the fields, right before haying and bailing, from before dawn until after dusk, everyday, whether it's -30 or 100 degrees, forget about vacations.

Any of you "new" members from the last couple of years, if you have a problem with those of us that have been here for the last 20 or so years that are not pleased with a member cramming down our throat some evil stuff we supposedly have done, that’s tough luck.  You can always feel free to move on.

By the way, you "sensitive" ones, who don’t like controversy, funny how you managed to get geoffkait kicked off. He was truly a knowledgeable and interesting member and has not come close to being replaced.  Even though in the past we all had our differences, we never thought about or resorted to having a member "banned".  That takes a special type of weasel.

• "... funny how you managed to get geoffkait kicked off."

More of a travesty than funny. Either way, I miss the guy. He was knowledgeable and funny. 

Frank

Where is all of this going?

@jetter ... 110%

@millercarbon

Plus I often had the vague sense of some things begin better, but in a way that was more a feeling than anything that could be put into words.

That's very, very interesting to me. The vague experience that has portents which need to be somehow teased out, unpacked. It's not articulate or articulable at first but is very much *there.* Excellent!

Your comment about the AVR being so important at the beginning that you didn't really note the difference in speakers is a telling comment, to me. It indicates how focused you could listen even near the beginning of the journey you're describing.

So yeah, serious case of audiophilia nervosa. The cure it turns out is tubes and turntables. Well, sorta. There is a bit more to it.

LOL -- Good one! There has to be more to it, because those conversations about tubes can go on forever, also!

All I know is they said don't hear nuttin. My response was pretty much this thread: there are a lot of things people can hear that we haven't yet learned to hear.Thus the question: How do you do it? How do you learn to hear what you don't know how to hear??

Right -- that's where their ability to reflect and use language is crucial. It's why there must be more to this hobby than "It just gives pleasure" or "Thinking about it ruins it." But, we know, there are people who say this about life. This has been around a long time-- see Cyrenaics. [Wikipedia is good enough on this one.]

"The Cyrenaics were a hedonist Greek school of philosophy founded in the 4th century BC...[who] taught that the only intrinsic good is...positively enjoyable momentary sensations. Of these, physical ones are stronger than those of anticipation or memory....They thought that we can know with certainty only our immediate sense-experiences (for instance, that one is having a sweet sensation), but can know nothing about the nature of the objects that cause these sensations (for instance, that honey is sweet). They also denied that we can have knowledge of what the experiences of other people are like. All knowledge is immediate sensation....Feeling, therefore, is the only possible criterion of knowledge and of conduct. Our ways of being affected are alone knowable, thus the sole aim for everyone should be pleasure."

That boils down pretty easily to, "I don't need to know nothing, because I know what I like." Not my way of looking at things because actual experience has shown me that even sensation and pleasure themselves can deepen with the influence of knowledge and language. As long as the "knowing mind" relaxes and lets the "flow" of experience happen on its own terms later, it's all to the better.

Here ya go!
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=cant+we+all&view=detail&mid=9D814ADA6A3C76AF09ED9D814AD...

This thread reminded me why this forum is not much of a fun place to discuss audio. 

It will be a shame if anyone gets booted off this forum over something like this. Being new to the hobby I value everyone’s input including MC. Please play nice. 

Allow me to remind all of you late comers who are lamenting what has happened to this thread;
None of this would have taken place had the OP not gone off topic to spread his libelous agenda.
So, blame him and not those who are defending themselves against it.
Also, note that he is now conspicuously absent from his own thread immediately following his statement. He was called out to explain himself for once again making such an accusation, and what do we hear?
Crickets. So, think about that before you pass judgement on any of us.

Where did the OP go?

No apology from him as yet, I see.

@tvad Agree on your #4. Indeed, I imagine that much of apprenticeship in the arts has happened this way for centuries or longer. The notion it is not needed in listening is the product of more recent ideologies, I suspect.

We listen sound with a very short conscious memory span....

It is impossible to remember a sound from few minutes ago sometimes and comparing it in our conscious usual memory with another sound on the spot...(But for sure a trained musician learn how to recognize a chord for example, but there is more to sound than tone names and timbre is not a mere addition of frequencies anyway )

But our body/soul own a memory more intimately linked to emotions which will surge anew from our body, after some past experience, if the same sound or part of it is recreated.... They are engrammed in our emotional history ready to be born again...

Then for me learning to listen was learning to spontaneously listen to my own soul/body reaction, not only to the sound with the working conscious effort to judge it....In the first case i remember or i know what the sound is by his way of living inside me... In the second case i dont remember nor can i recall either my emotion anyway...A recalled emotion is no more an emotion...An image is not the territory....

We listen with our body and not only that, we listen with all our own body histories.... It is why Alzheimer people regain part of their life with music....It is the reason why rythm is so evidently an experience of the body not of the EARS/brain only....

For me there is not "sound" at my left and "music" at my right, but only one experience....They are completely distinguished without never being separated....And learning for human living animal and soul is most of the time learning to distinguish phenomenon without separating or isolating them apart...Goethe was the great master in this art and science...




«Sound is a body's echo, like on a mountain» - A horn player from the Swiss alps

«Do you mean that your body is another mountain?»- Groucho Marx 🤓

Great question.

I thought I knew everything there was to know.  I played in bands--marching, concert, rock, went to many concerts of all kinds of music  before I opened my shop and I thought I was really knowledgeable.

THEN, I set up a pair of Advent's next to a pair of Magneplaners and the world changed.

After that humbling experience, I began my real education.  Fortunately, I had a shop full of great and not-so-great gear and lots of time.

I brought my instruments to the shop and recorded me playing them on various machines--back then (1974) we had r-t-r and cassettes and many different microphones I had left over from my band days.

To cut to the chase, it took me a year or so of intense listening and attending more concerts to START to learn what to listen for in reproduced sound.  Having spent time in a recording studio, I also learned that there are many elements to recording live music, and I had help from a fellow dealer who was seriously perfecting his ability to record live music using a Nagra and different mics placed at various places in the concert hall.

Bottom line, it takes a while and some experience and dedication to learn what there is out there to learn, and I keep learning every time I hear a new component.

Be diligent, go to live concerts of all kinds of music (when they start up again!) and stay interested and passionate about learning.

Cheers!

There will be no apology, more likely there will be another double down. 

jetter2,284 posts08-29-2021 2:49am

Now you see why I’d rather feed the chickens. My chicken cackle a whole lot less..

Well you know out here in Vermont we have lots of farms that have chickens, horses and pigs, and I am sure if you like feeding them they would gladly let you, for free. And while you are at it if you want you can feed and milk the cows, shovel the sh*t, fertilize, till, plant and harvest the fields, right before haying and bailing, from before dawn until after dusk, everyday, whether it’s -30 or 100 degrees, forget about vacations.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I’m in CA, now. I was raised on a working farm, that is where I started working on equipment. Red Bone hounds, pigs, no cattle, 3, 40 acre plots and one 60. Sweet corn, tomatoes, cabbage, lettuce.

I also worked on active well head pump stations.. (Gas and oil country). My dad had the normal 5 jobs (at one time) after he got back from Vietnam, Standard oil (well heads), the water district, the mobile JD mechanic, owner of the Richfield service station and worked the farm with my Uncle who was one of 3 local Vets that did heard work..

Beefalo was all the rage on Texas Cattle Co. Island farms. I hated those things.. I had to help with inoculations, calving, and NUT cuttin’. Every now and then a nose ring for a stubborn bull or cow. (that was always fun)

25-120 degree weather.

I’ve never mucked cattle, only horses, BUT I did get stuck milking two cows we had every other Sunday while me Mums went to church. The odd weekend, when my mom stayed home on Sunday, Me and my Grandmother would go.

The older I got the more I did. 6 to 61, broken neck, that did slow me down.. Not much.. 67 now.

I was here on AG as Diepiolet for 10 years, away for 5 and re registered as oldhvymec.. I’m a 20+ year vet..

It’s not the length of anyone time on AG, it’s their contribution..

Never met a person I didn’t like, BUT in Vermont don’t you guy’s still have the CRAZY Quaid brother.. Randy, and great syrup? :-)

BTW we have Islands in our delta as big a Vermont. I know I’ve sandbagged for a solid week behind levees worries and winter storms..
Cattle country THEN, not so much now..

NOW I’ll move on if I like.. Slowly to boot..

BUT only to feed my chickens, if I want.. Vermont Yankee Yak, as my granny would say. in her Gaelic, Texas accent..

Regards..

I can’t speak for the others but an apology would be an appropriate gesture. We will see. For now it’s where it belongs which is in the hands of the mods. I’ve already apologized to Tammy for her having to waste her time dealing with this nonsense.

Everyone is capable of learning how to listen critically if they want to make the effort. A good guide and then lots of practice pays off.

The best guide I've found is Jim Smith's Get Better Sound book.

For those with more money, Jim also offers what he calls RoomPlay Reference; you spend a few hours in Jim's well designed listening room listening to different musical selections that highlight different sound categories.

I believe a lot of folks struggle with their music systems simply because they have no good frame of reference.

https://www.getbettersound.com/

For those struggling Jim Smith is likely the gold standard to engage with for getting better sound. Book, consultation, whatever. That guy is the real deal. I’ve sat in one of his showrooms and heard for myself. It was a real eye opener. I’ve seen him make an appearance here in this very forum even every once in a blue moon. .

You try to turn on your television, only to find that the batteries in the remote are dead and no one bothered to replace them. Your computer freezes in the middle of finishing something important and you lose hours of work. You’re running late for your child’s soccer game because they’ve been fooling around instead of getting ready to play. You’re trying to change lanes on the freeway, but another driver is too close to your car and won’t give you room to maneuver. And the worse, they flip you off.

What’s the natural response to all of these situations? To get angry.

But, remember, to the Stoics, our “natural” instincts and emotions were something to always question. And sometimes, something to regard with outright skepticism. “The cause of anger is the sense of having been wronged,” Seneca wrote, “but one ought not trust this sense. Don’t make your move right away, even against what seems overt and plain.”

Not everyone has an “anger problem” but anger is a problem for everyone. We all cause ourselves harm through it. We drive people away. We act unreasonably. We say things we regret. We shave minutes off our life—or in some cases, put ourselves in outright danger.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

There are many members here who do not get embroiled in a ludicrous accusation and there have been many assertions, name calling, questioning a persons IQ etc etc  (although not rising to the level of this BS).

I've had my run-in with MC and suspect I was on the "hateful" list for some amount of time.  This is not entertaining or informative its simply sad.

Regards,
barts 

https://www.helpguide.org/articles/mental-disorders/narcissistic-personality-disorder.htm

Take it for what it’s worth.