Let me end the Premp/Amplifier sound debate ...

holmz,

What plastic? There is a cloth cover over the glass table top, but there are no plastic coverings on any of the furniture.

BTW, my videos were all made using a Nikon D750 SLR.

I guess calling yourself an audiophile when you refuse to trust your ears is a bit of a misnomer🧐

I guess I'm fortunate to not bother with specs, only for component matching.  I've been turned off by the measurement crowd and never even look at any of there post.  I could tell an audible difference in several minutes with the handful of amps and preamps I've had without any measurements whatsoever.

Although I did read some from the measurement crowd on the roon forum saying dacs and cables all sound the same because they measure close. It's gotten ridiculous to read this garbage on roon. 

This statement is incorrect. This amp uses about 15 dB of feedback, allowing it to behave as a voltage source with most speakers.

Most Speakers vary immensely. 😉 

To date, I've yet to see a tube amp measurement that does not look similar to the Black Line into the Stereophile simulated speaker load. Many speakers' impedance curves make the Simulated load look like a resistor.

"If it measures good and sounds bad, –– it is bad. If it sounds good and measures bad, –– you've measured the wrong thing." –– Daniel R. von Recklinghausen, HHScott

The only measurement that matters is how it sounds in your system in your room with your program. Evaluation by any other method is foolish unless you are buying HiFi Jewelry or Furniture.

Speaking from my personal experience, I believe the measurements we use as standard do not tell the whole story. Not at all.

 The only reason this happens is that all the measurements are either not published or simply were never made. One of the more important measurements you rarely see, but has an enormous impact on what you hear is distortion vs frequency. Many amplifiers have rising distortion with frequency- always a bad sign.

Another measurement is that of the distortion spectra. That can show the difference between harsh and smooth.

Its usually not enough for the distortion to be low- we've all heard amps that 'measure well' but don't sound good; the distortion spectra isn't good on an amplifier like that, and very likely the distortion was only measured at 1KHz which tells you almost nothing.

Because these measurements are rarely made,  the idea has arisen that we can hear things we can't measure- its false, we simply don't see the measurements we need to see!

If you haven't used any control for bias then your subjective opinion is only useful for you , it tells me nothing nor furthers our understanding.

AudioScienceReview does not say that all amplifiers sound the same or that they measure the same.

I said this on my first post but... what they say is amps that measure similar numbers driven within their comfort zone would be hard if not impossible to tell apart in blind listening tests. That is not saying every amp sounds the same. I’ve heard differences in amps but I haven’t under  these basic conditions.

antigring2:
... Any well sorted system is the result of multiple fine tuning steps extracting maximum synergy from its components. This is again totally ignored when putting individual units onto the ‘scientific’ test benches.

Yep, thank you. This thread or any other discussion that offers any type of "absolute" statements misses the fundamental point: human cognition is a subjective field and not objective science. Otherwise, let’s start arguing right now about the best novel book ever published... (I suspect, many here wouldn’t miss that opportunity, LOL)

I don't remember what Julian Hirsch said about amplifiers but AudioScienceReview does not say that all amplifiers sound the same or that they measure the same.  

If you doubt there are sonic differences between amplifiers, both preamps and power amps, A/B a few. If you cannot hear any differences you are probably not going to be affected by these choices. But to me, Amp and Preamp selection, next to speaker selection, make the the biggest difference in sound of any system I have ever heard. So no need to chase amps if you hear little or no differences. Geez, I wish it was that easy.

Nice videos. I think I hear what I associate with tubes right at the start of one of those videos with the cymbal crash. I'm generally happier with the solid state sound but it'd be nice to be able to switch over to tubes with the flick of a switch if I felt in the mood.

Eric, great post and worthy of discussion.

By the way Todd, very nice setup. I’m sure you enjoy many listening sessions. By the way I had the Yamaha ZX-9 many years ago and gave it to my son. It’s a fine-sounding receiver.

On Amir and ASR, I respect what he is trying to do. Amir’s opinions are worth listening to and he has some very good points, but many ASR forum members are just annoying. Speaking from my personal experience, I believe the measurements we use as standard do not tell the whole story. Not at all.

In my humble opinion, I cannot understand how any audiophiles obsessively build their sound systems over the years and still believe that all amplifiers, when level matched, essentially sound the same. I find that contention wildly wrong. Without going deep into how different topologies sound different (to me, they most assuredly do), each amplifiers model is capable in different ways, with strengths and weaknesses. Some are extremely fast and ‘airy’ , whereas others are more rich, and seductive. Some throw massive enveloping soundstages and present as a complete sound-picture you look on from the outside, while others focus more on immediacy and ‘I am here-ness’. Some are more laid back with a slightly recessed perspective, while others are very forward.

My believe is, that as technology advances, the higher-end products are becoming more similar in sound, being better able to approach the ‘absolute sound’.

For example, a Devialet Expert Pro sounds different than a Parasound Halo, or a NuForce, or Audio Research Classic 150 mono-blocks, or a bridged pair of Mark Levinson 27.5 and so on and so forth.

Pre-amps and Cables; same thing.

It seems to me, that the bottom line here is that all people hear differently. Some people have very acute hearing; other people don't. Those people who have very acute hearing maybe will hear a differences between various amplifiers or preamplifiers and those who don't have such acute hearing will not.  Those who don't hear a difference will think that there are no differences, while those who have better hearing your differences. The real issue is how you feel about the sound of your equipment. If you can't hear a difference there's no reason to spend more. I know I for one get jazzed up about some component based on reviews that call it the best thing since sliced bread and I am compelled to want to buy that piece of equipment. When I put it in my system I find that it might have a better sound in some respects but no means is it "a night and day oh my God I have a new system type" difference like the reviewed portrayed.  I think that the real interesting point made by the OP in this case is the diminishing marginal utility of equipment. Is there a $10,000 difference between a $10,000 preamp and a $20,000 one, or is it just audible. If it's just "audible" then, one must decide whether that "audible" difference is worth another $10K.  That is a personal choice and there is really no right or wrong.

I have very limited experience compared to a lot of people here but I've heard all three in my system and one was the clear winner.

I would agree pre amp is the most important thing which has had the greatest effect on my system.

Voltage from a tube amplifier OPT will vary considerably depending on the speaker impedance at the test frequency.

@ieales This statement is incorrect. This amp uses about 15 dB of feedback, allowing it to behave as a voltage source with most speakers. The variance at the output transformer is thus minimized. If it was zero feedback then it would behave as you describe.

Most everything has a signature sound characteristic. Every resistor and capacitor has their own sound.  That also goes for transformers and chokes.  Even the chassis material has a sound. 

While this is correct, it is incorrect to say that in all cases the 'sound' of the various parts actually influences the output. If the amplifier has enough Gain Bandwidth Product to support a large amount of feedback (+35dB) over the entire audio band then the various parts 'sound' will go away. Most amplifier designs cannot meet this criteria and so the parts influence the sound as you describe.

First off, +1 on what @atmasphere said.

Secondly, the folks at ASR display myopic hubris. Many folks there literally would take a $400 Topping amplifier over an Atmasphere, Pass Labs, D’Agostino, etc. amp based on measurements alone--without even test driving them.

Go try posting on ASR and asking them how things sound. They can be so evangelical with this framework. Many, not all, of them do not talk about how things sound. The ASR purists believe if it tests better it must be better. End of story.

While testing has its place and can be of meaningful value, it’s not everything.

Also, I’m not entirely sure ASR is truly an objective service to the audiophile community. ASR may be monetizing a testing operation, and some folks say that ASR is tied to certain brands. I believe there’s a thread at Super Best Audio Friends or something where they have intel that Amir has a relationship with Topping or SMSL or one of those brands.

See Audio Science Review, Review 

Folks, it doesn't matter what sounds like what! I know people who's stereos would send most people running out of the listening room holding their ears because the listener has hearing damage in the high frequency area. IF YOU ENJOY X, THEN LISTEN AWAY,

I have proposed this for a very very long time.  While pundits (like me) can talk about differences, the only opinion that matters is that of the person purchasing the gear.

If you listen to my opinion, at all, you should do so only in how it may help you hear differences, not necessarily, or at all, about which is better.   Same for reviewers.  Having said this, my opinion is still a hundred times better than the price tag for deciding what sounds better. 😂

There is NO worse judge of audio sound quality or fit for an end user than the price tags.

Folks, it doesn't matter what sounds like what! I know people who's stereos would send most people running out of the listening room holding their ears because the listener has hearing damage in the high frequency area. IF YOU ENJOY X, THEN LISTEN AWAY, but bashing others is just a demonstration of your frailties. You are so insecure that you try to beat up others who do not share your experience. There are many reasons why others may not agree with you. Their hearing may be better or worse than yours, their system may have better or worse resolution than yours, etc. Ultimately bashing others for enjoying things differently than you is just silly. I used to bash people who enjoyed lower resolving systems, who mocked those who with better resolving systems talking about the impact of this or that on their systems, but I finally figured out that we should celebrate that others enjoy audio rather than trying to belittle them for choices beyond that baseline. Frankly most things that others claim have improved their sound I once denounced myself. I too read Stereo Review and unfortunately paid attention to Julian Hersh's bunk. His "preferring" a Mark Levinson amp tells me that he was hearing differences, but understood that if he didn't validate his readers choices, they would not continue to read Stereo Review. Back when The Absolute Sound and Stereophile magazines were not taking advertisements, they didn't even agree about what equipment sounded best. Preference, politics, which manufactures would allow them to extort them into giving the reviewer gear, or insanely low prices on gear, who knows? They failed though because if they bashed an expensive piece of audio gear that someone already bought, they would stop reading the magazine. Politics aside, some love beef, others love beans, some love both, still others don't care for either. None are wrong folks!

Here’s how I think of it. In a lab, sound waves hit a microphone, are converted to electrical signals, travel to a preamp/amp, where they are amplified, and measured. In human experience, sound waves hit an ear drum, continue to the inner ear, where they are converted to electrical signals, and travel to the brain, where they are …. What? Heard? Imagined? Interpreted? Measurements are helpful, but the final measure is what each person hears. It’s all in your head, after all.

@larry5721

Perhaps @willgolf is the wife. Or perhaps he has an understanding husband. Or perhaps he (she) is unattached. Or perhaps it was the partner that urged the $50k purchase.

Most likely to me: $$$ in this range are largely insignificant in @willgolf’s life - at least for audio purchases.

People tend to focus too much on the amp.  If I had to way which one is more important I'd say preamp.  An amp can't do much with a bad signal in.  GIGO.  

If your preamp throws a blanket over the sound it sends to the amp, you're screwed.  Now you have an amplified blanket covered signal.  Changing amps will indeed change the sound of the garbage out.  It will be different garbage. 

I'm leaning toward integrated amps in the tube world.  the simplest preamps tend to be transparent and allow the amp to show what it can do and integrated amps often keep it very simple--especially the ones with only one input.  

Jerry

toddalin

I can hear the difference on my PC speakers, good job with the presentation. And I like Heil AMTs, very smooth and easy to listen to.

Yes indeed.  Your experiences are your own.  Couple of things here, having experienced a very large  number of amplifiers over the past 40 years or so.  Specs not only give no indication as to one amp sounding better than the other, the amps with the lowest THD are often the least musical of them all. Power ratings can also be deceptive.  I have heard amplifiers that can barely deliver five watts per channel that are glorious.  And more than a few 200 watt per channel amps that make me want to shut them off.  

Odd choice to include entire brands as examples.  Luxman has indeed built some beautiful equipment, especially in recent years.  They also made some pretty embarrassing gear in the 1980s.  People often don't consider how much a brand can change over a long period of time.  You need specific models for this to be a reliable experiment.  

Ironically - all of you are arguing over his argument.  I find this tiresome as well.  I think his point to his post was --- who gives a crap what you think--- buy what you think gives YOU the best sound.  I'm sure some obnoxious a-hole will come back at me so let me give a preemptive🖕.

is the preamp/amplifier sound debate now over?  Most everything has a signature sound characteristic. Every resistor and capacitor has their own sound.  That also goes for transformers and chokes.  Even the chassis material has a sound.  So they all sound different IMO and ME.  Come to our listening room in Northern NJ and we will be happy to demonstrate.

@toddalin all that plastic on the seat reminds me of Mr Wolf in “Pulp Fiction”.

(Or a crisco party.)
 

I hear some subtle differences in tone, but that is it. So, you win. Now what ? I still cannot judge the " sound ", and the " personality ", of an amp over YT, and it is not my ears, nor my system. Maybe, I just don't care. Enjoy !

All amps of a certain quality level DO sound the same. They all sound great 😀

If all amps at a certain level all sound the same, why does anyone bother auditioning them?

Then you need to "up your game" and listen on better equipment or headphones. The difference is very noticable on even a decent system.

After all, this is an audio forum. No one would expect to go to a gaming site and expect to be competative using less than high definition resolution and a fast video card, nor would they expect others to "dumb down" their systems to accomodate them.

Initially, they were not labled, but everyone on the other forum was still able to hear the differences and pretty much know which was which, so I went back and put the lables on.

I can hear a very slight difference but listening to Youtube doesn’t prove anything. The OP can speak for himself but my position is different amps that measure close and are not driven outside their limits would be very hard if not impossible to tell apart. Listening to your tracks if I didn’t know which was which I couldn’t tell the tube from the SS. You should not have labeled them and I doubt these 2 amps measure similar. 

djones51, do you not hear the differences in the videos, especially from the Heil? I matched the levels to within 0.1 dB. Do you really think that changing the output voltage on one amp or the other by maybe a couple thousanths of a volt is really going to create that much shift in the frequency spectrum as opposed to one being maybe a tiny bit louder?  Let's be realistic.

Like I said, you are only listening for a difference, no matter how small or which you care for. If you can hear a difference, then YouTube is capable of displaying/resolving this difference.

And no one is saying that either is exactly as how it sounds in the room or that the videos convey the finer points such as soundstage and imaging. Again, we are only listening for differences in what we can hear.

And the original premiss was that all amps sound the same, but obviously, depending on the speakers used, they don’t, and I’ve demonstrated that.

Voltage from a tube amplifier OPT will vary considerably depending on the speaker impedance at the test frequency.

The ENTIRE UBoob demo idea is nonsense from the git-go

Use a DMM at the speaker terminals and a test tone to level match. It's more accurate using voltage.

UBoob compresses audio.

UTTER waste of time!

The contenders are a Yamaha RX-Z9 in Pure Direct Mode and a Melton MKT-88 with push/pull KT-88s, Sylvania input and driver tubes, and tube rectifiers.

This is an SACD played on an Oppo95. The stereo direct RCA plugs (Canare 18 gauge) feed the "Pure Direct" on a Yamaha RX-Z9 solid state receiver (20 years old with well over 30,000 hours), rated at 170 WPC into the 6 ohm load. The speakers are connected with 14 gauge OFC cable.

The Oppo XLR stereo direct plugs (16 Monoprice/18 gauge Canare) feed to the Melton KT-88 (P/P KT-88s) rated at 80 WPC (purchased new last year with ~60 hours now). The speakers are connected with 12 gauge OFC cable.

The volumes were matched using the both the 1 kHz tone and pink noise tracks on the Stereophile test disk and ultimately matched to within less than 0.1 dBA using the pink noise track.

Nothing was moved or disturbed in the room at any time when comparing equipment.

The Vanessa Fernandez track was first played on the Yamaha (digital volume control in 0.5 dB steps) to establish the optimum camera recording level and the values recorded.

The camera was replaced with a professional sound level meter, the Vanessa disk was replaced with the Stereophile test disk and the levels for the Yamaha were recorded for the 1 minute track (Leq, Lmax, Lmin. L02, L08, L25, L50). To be statistically significant, this was repeated twice and the results of the three sets of measurements were within 0.1 dBA.

The track was changed to the Pink noise track and again, the levels were recorded for three sets of readings of the 2 minute track. The Yamaha was then shut off.

The speakers were then switched to the Melton and the amp was allowed to play a disk for over an hour before any testing.

I then put the 1 kHz track on the Melton and after many, many, many back and forth attempts on the Alps dial I was able to get the Melton to play the 1 kHz track within 0.1 dBA of the Yamaha and did three sets of readings. I then did three sets of reading using the Pink noise and of course because of the tube rolloff, this was 0.8 dB less than on the Yamaha.

I feel that Pink noise is better for comparison and brought the Pink noise on the Melton up to the level of the Yamaha (within 0.1 dBA) for the comparison.

So, at this point the Yamaha and Melton are within 0.1 dBA at that particular spot on the dial and I made the recording of Vanessa on the Melton.

I shut off the Melton, changed the speakers back over, and let the Yamaha warm up for an hour before making the same recording without moving the camera nor disturbing ANYTHING in the room other than my presence starting/stopping the recordings.

Know that if you find the recordings bright, both the 10" and Heil have L-pads turned to full, which provides the flattest response across the band, even if it does sound bright. And it may be that you find the tube too dull and the solid state too bright, which shows the importance of matching equipment and speakers for your taste.

Also, realize that when you sit back into the couch, the proximity of the cushions, as opposed to a camera tripod sitting up over the couch) takes a lot of brightness out. Even a few inches can make a difference which is why it was so important not to move the camera between recordings.

If you can’t hear "meaningful" differences, you need to update your playback system or listen on headphones.

https://youtu.be/HTxZJBoOywM

https://youtu.be/FDIu2BFbt-Q

https://youtu.be/W66SQS1wDUA

https://youtu.be/ZxhDJ_eOlYw

@toddalin, I am not sure what videos you are speaking of, but in my statement of ridiculousness, I should have specified " meaningful " differences. Enjoy !

"How can you expect any sonic differences be heard for the viewers through a recorded YouTube session ( w/ what mics & recording equipment?)which is then digitized & then re / converted back to analog & played through computer speakers or even good headphones?"

I demonstrated that in fact sonic differences can be determined from YouTube videos. Again, it does not matter which one prefers, just that they hear a difference.

How can you listen to my videos and not come to this conclusion unless your playback system is poor?

@itsjustme, I made those specifics known on the 1st page of this thread, but unfortunately no one pays attention to me anymore. It does seem ridiculous to me to listen to YT videos for the purpose of trying to decipher differences between gear, but some are doing it and the audience for it seems to be growing. More power to them all. I know my " system " very well ( as most should with theirs ), and when I change 1 thing ( whatever it may be, down to a fuse ) I hear a difference. Once a difference is heard ( like everyone, I use specific recordings ), it begins.....is the music now, a better experience for me, or not ? I just know what I like. My best to everyone. Always, MrD.

@tmaker +1

Thanks @itsjustme

I sit corrected.

since we're arguing fact vs fiction:

1 it's Juian Hirsch ("i")

2 Hirsch-Houck did work for Stereo Review, not Audio (That was John Atkinson in the day)

How can you expect any sonic differences be heard for the viewers through a recorded YouTube session ( w/ what mics & recording equipment?)which is then digitized & then re / converted back to analog & played through computer speakers or even good headphones? 

We can listen to & consider what the person conducting the listening session says but it’s ridiculous to think any definitive sonic differences could be accurately determined in this way. It would be similar to trying to determine which good quality OLED TV or video projector & screen is best through a recorded review & watched through a computer screen. Silly!

How many people in this audience do you really think even have those three amps for comparison?

Maybe no one.  But they are widely distributed. 

Tell you what. How many people in this audience do you really think even have those three amps for comparison?

Make a YouTube video of the three playing the same piece with all else being the same. Make sure that each amp first has at least 30 minutes play to come up to temperature and stabilize.

And, use a pink noise source and reputable meter to make sure that all of the amps are being recorded at the same level within 0.5 dB.

You contend that these amps sound so different, so a good YouTube video should easily display this difference. Doesn’t matter which someone prefers, just that they can hear a difference. Because if you can hear it in a YouTube video, you can certainly hear it in person.

BUT! Because the ear has such a poor memory, you may not even realize you hear a difference unless you can instantly A/B the sources as in a recording, be it audio or audio/video such as YouTube.

Sgreg1- I really agree with you!  Long term quality & reliability is at least for myself, I major factor in considering how I spend my hard earned dollars. I’ve had my Basis 2500 turntable & Vector 4 arm for 20 years & other than a new belt ( original got stretched out), works as well as it did new & still sounds excellent! 
 

I recently purchased a Rogers High Fidelity integrated tube amp. It sounds great, top notch build quality, made in MA w/ a lifetime warranty. It should be the last amp I ever buy.  Expensive but long term, not really. 

I think that too many of you end up listening to your equipment rather than your

music out of pure boredom, or the thought that there will always be something better out there that makes your already excellent system sound maybe 1% better. Its a rabbit hole that knows no bottom,and the people lined up to find said bottom is astonishing.

If you wonder if capacitors sound different, build a two way and experiment for yourself.

But all you will know is they sound different in that configuration along with the rest of the system and the room.

Nothing can be evaluated in exclusio.

Flaws in one system may be ameliorated by defects in another. Grunge monsters may prefer a completely different set of flaws to an opera lover.

While both are excellent, swapped, the Class D woofer amp and tube mid range are pretty unlistenable. Either full range into a different loudspeaker are PDG!

I think the three brands chosen are an excellent choice for the discussion as they are all excellent but different...I like all 3 ...