Is there a DAC ranking list?

Of the DACs I am familiar with (best sounding first):

1) Audio Research CD9se ($17K)

2) Berkeley Reference Alpha ($22K)

3) Linn Klimax (~20K?)… I can’t find the price… conflated with the DSM

4) Schiit Yggdrasil ~ $2,500

5) Schiit Gungnir~ $1,500

We as audiophiles often seek ’giant killer’ components. Though the phrase is loosely used, rarely, if ever do we find such elusive equipment.

I can’t see any worthy ranking below about a $3,000 price point. That’s the approximate starting threshold level and going north, where unit build and significant performance significant differentiation starts in my experiences.

Simply put, quality build matters, and you get what you pay for,

That’s the suggested starting price point where you actually start seeing significant design and quality build differentiation they translates into a meaningful audio performance step-up in lockstep; with features and measured performance that is very near the theoretical limit of the digital audio streams it can decode.

Besides it’s superb measured performance, it’s a total joy to use and listen to. It is operationally easy to understand and simply sounds better as a key contender and leaves the lower budget units as clear and unambiguous large pretenders comparatively.

For example,

• Separate power supplies for analog and digital circuitry
• Fully discrete Class-A balanced analog outputs
• User selectable upsampling for some inputs

Ranking lists are pretty useless as it comes down to what sound characteristics you like, not someone else’s list according to their own preferences that could well be different from yours.  

That said, given what your looking for take a look at the Musician Pegasus.  I have one and it’s really good at portraying tone and density but still has excellent detail up top.  Several reviewers use it as a reference if that means anything, and at $1100 I think it offers very good value for the sound quality it offers.  Here’s a review that coincides with my own impressions of the Pegasus’ sound characteristics.  Best of luck. 

https://soundnews.net/sources/dacs/musician-audio-pegasus-r2r-dac-review/

John Darko used to have a 'Dac-Ranking' list.

I think it's now password protected, but may still be worth investigating.

can someone rank the best burgers in the usa? best smoked brisket? best french bordeaux? best sports cars? best seafood restaurants? best paintings in the louvre?

speaker rankings? record player rankings?

please please please... will make life so much easier... ordinals are just so clear, unambiguous.... just wanna know the rankings... 😉

sorry, couldn’t resist...

I’ve read several times a 2121 Audiogon thread “DAC That Punches Above Its Price Point”.  It has been helpful, but I asked about a “DAC ranking list” because I had such a good result using the one Chronicle created for earphones.  I appreciate your answers, and will study them.  I apologize for asking ‘beginner’ questions, but I live in a city where there is only a Best Buy, and my friends have 1970’s stereo systems.  I listed my equipment and listening habits, because there are likely a FEW “best value DAC’s” out there for me…finding one is the trick.  It has to be both good sounding and a good value.  Hamburgers?  That’s an easy one.  Without a doubt…the best burger is at the Anchor Bar and Grill in Superior, WI…$4 burgers, $6.25 if you want a 2/3lb one…fresh fries for $1.25.  So you might say I’m looking for the DAC that matches their deal.

How could you possibly compile such a ranking list? I think that there are more DAC's on the market than almost any other component. Just check out the DAC classifieds on USAM.

+1 @akg_ca 

I can’t see any worthy ranking below about a $3,000 price point. That’s the approximate starting threshold level and going north,....

    
@tcotruvo 

There was a 2018 DAC shootout on WBF, but the DACs were from $2k to $100k+.  Current best DAC seems to be the WADAX at $150k.  Generally speaking, to hear a significant sonic uptick over the typical box store offerings these high-end DACs start at ~$3k.  Consider buying used to save $, often 30-50%.

If you're shopping at the ~$1k level, IIRC a couple of years agos Gustard reviews seemed to suggest great price/performance, possibly a bargain at their price point.  Also Denafrips garners many positive reviews.  

If we ignore pre-ringing and impulse response…

 

@tcotruvo
“ … I’ve read several times a 2121 Audiogon thread “DAC That Punches Above Its Price Point”. …”

When you get more experienced, you will recognize this metaphor in bold popping up all-too-frequently. It is lame hyperbole pushing marketing puffery and BS.

Hint: When you see it quoted, do the eye-roll first, and then just walk away….full stop. Everything in this hobby is always built to it’s price-point, with a performance capability in lockstep.

op

Hamburgers? That’s an easy one. Without a doubt…the best burger is at the Anchor Bar and Grill in Superior, WI…$4 burgers, $6.25 if you want a 2/3lb one…fresh fries for $1.25. So you might say I’m looking for the DAC that matches their deal.

schiit bifrost mb or chord mojo -- with your view on burgers i suspect these dacs will work just fine for you...

more grist for your mill on the low end - equivalent of the 'best' 4 dollar burger... ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Cv29Klqlsw

I would make the analogy of DACs more akin to automotive as opposed to burgers. You want a Volkswagen, Lexus, or Porsche. They all perform the same function… many are superior in every way… but there is an element of taste. 

@jjss49

can someone rank the best burgers in the usa?

That’s easy In & Out

chaos and a 12-hour wait!!!

:)

Anyone care to hazard a guess as to the total number of DACs (makes and models) available for purchase right now?  I'm sure it's well into three figures.

Steven Stone just gave the <$1K Topping a rave.

Remember that DACs depreciate faster than new cars and that over $1500 you rapidly hit the law of diminishing returns

@holmz

Now that’s what I call a timely intervention!

Thanks for the link.

It’s an excellent interactive resource for anyone in the market for a dedicated DAC, though there’s plenty of other stuff there too.

There’s a few at $6/7k which don’t get a recommendation and then there’s some around $40 that do!

Right at the top of their ranking seems to be the Topping D90SE at $899.

@cd318 I would still like to see some measurements showing impulse response.
The band limiting filters, around 20 kHz, that are used in DACS can give low SINAD for steady state tones, but can cause pre ringing or post ringing.

The multi tine signal graphs may cover that, but I would have to think about it.
And I have an old “pre millennium” CD player, and no state of the art digital.

In my OP I explained that I now stream radio stations on my iPad Pro to an Apple AirPort Express connected to my speakers.  I raised the question whether I need a DAC with a streamer.  Any thoughts?  I ask because I’m not sure what’s the weakest link in my system.

In my OP I explained that I now stream radio stations on my iPad Pro to an Apple AirPort Express connected to my speakers.  I raised the question whether I need a DAC with a streamer.  Any thoughts?  I ask because I’m not sure what’s the weakest link in my system.

If it sounds good to you, then I am not sure that picking at the scab is going to help.

But sometimes people just want to change and upgrade, so there is also that.

Basically there is no right answer here. 

There cannot be a ranking list for all DACs because DACs are like other gear in that you can categorize them by their design and the likely sound signature based on that design.

You need to figure out what sonic signature you like. If you like warmth, then maybe a tube DAC would be on your top tier while another person may find that type of sound at the bottom tier.

That Absolute Sound review of the Topping D90SE is a good example. It is a super neutral DAC based on an ESS chip. Some people like the detail and clarity from such a DAC while other dislike the sterile sound (no warmth). In the review, the reviewer says something to that effect. If you want neutrality, he thought it was a great DAC.

I have had a few DACs in the last 2 years.

• Gustard X26 Pro ($1500)
• Audio Mirror Tubadour III SE ($2800)
• Benchmark DAC3B ($1700)
• Topping D90SE ($899)
• Musetec 005 ($3000)
• Matrix Audio Mini-I 3 Pro ($1100)

I sold all the DACs except the Benchmark DAC3B and the Musetec 005. I plan on using the DAC3B on a new tube headphone amp so I will need another DAC to replace it. The plan is to get a second Musetec 005.

The DAC3B is neutral and a bit bright. While the 005 has a touch of warmth.

There cannot be a ranking list for all DACs because DACs are like other gear in that you can categorize them by their design and the likely sound signature based on that design.

You need to figure out what sonic signature you like. If you like warmth, then maybe a tube DAC would be on your top tier while another person may find that type of sound at the bottom tier.

Or one can argue that the DAC or TT should be neutral, and amplifiers and speaker should be neutral.

And then people spice to flavour with a tube preamp or a DSP?

But @yyzsantabarbara I agree that a Tube DAC on an existing SS setup might be a winning proposition.

The other obvious (?) difference is in features, EQ, user interface, streaming options… etc.
It almost doesn’t matter if it is the best, and is only $50, if it is painful to use.

YouTube is your friend! Listen to some of the best and make your decision based on what sounds best to you.  I have the Schitt Yggdrasil, which is superb... but... I'll prolly end up with the Holo Audio or Denafrips.  

Though... there are only very subtle differences between the most expensive and the reasonable priced DACs - it's hard to tell the difference - as acknowledged by the reviewers.  So... it doesn't make a lot of sense to struggle with a decision.

"Don't get lost in the details" - it can be overwhelming.  Listen to 2 or 3 of what are widely acknowledged to be the best DACs available:

I was in the group that most DACs sounded the same until I bought a bunch of DACs and listened at home. The real differentiator of the sound was evident in my RAAL SR1a headphones. I never heard anything as revealing as the SR1a and with a bright DAC you get fatigue. With a to warm DAC you can immediately notice the loss of detail.

The very best DAC on the SR1a was the Musetec. No fatigue, no brightness, and tons of detail. On my 2-channel speakers, Thiel CS3.7 it is more forgiving with all of the DACs I listed, but still is the best sound with the 005.

I should clarify that all of the prior amps I have used with the SR1a have been solid state.  Maybe 10 amps, 2 channel and dedicated headphone. A tube peramp or amp would alter my perception. As now with me using my brighter DAC3B with the new RAAL VM-1a tube headphone amp.

From the description of your room/system, you have bigger fish to fry than a DAC.

Just sayin......

From the description of your room/system, you have bigger fish to fry than a DAC.

Just sayin......
 

OK, ozzy62, I’d like you to expand on that if you would.  I’ve started room treatment by adding 7 utility mats on the floor.  As I mentioned, I’m very happy with the sound of my Moondrop Blessing earphones.  My guess is that the weak links are the AirPort Express and/or streaming on the iPad Pro.  What would you address to take a step forward?

You nailed it. My first pause for concern was the room as you described it. No curtains or carpet makes for a very lively space. If you are addressing that, we can cross that off the list. The second one is the streaming configuration. You’d be much better served with a dedicated streamer connected to your modem and/or hard drive, if sound quality is of import.

And by "LP triangle in the corner" can I assume you mean a record player? If so, this is a very bad place to locate it. Standing bass waves can wreak havoc in corners and don’t play nice with a turntable. If I misunderstood, please disregard.

Lastly, the B&O speakers would be another weak link I'd be looking at.

Ranking DAC's is a silly idea IMO.

Agree with @ozzy62   Your cabling also. The monoprice long cable likely degrades sound. I would start with a Bluesound Node 2 and get your streaming in order, then you can add an outboard DAC later if you want to further improve sound quality. 

• Thx ozzy and Peter!  By LP I meant listening position.  Here it is, the red lounge chair in the foreground.  You can see the 2 B&O ‘pencil’ speakers on the right and left, connected by a 10ft cable.  I put mats under them for room treatment.  The subs are about 10ft behind the LP, 1 connected with the 25ft cable and the other wireless.

   

You have some serious hard reflection points in that room. I would bet it sounds like an echo chamber. Good luck.

@holmz

I would still like to see some measurements showing impulse response.
The band limiting filters, around 20 kHz, that are used in DACS can give low SINAD for steady state tones, but can cause pre ringing or post ringing.

The multi tine signal graphs may cover that, but I would have to think about it.
And I have an old “pre millennium” CD player, and no state of the art digital.

It's a good argument, but I must admit that I needed the help of a search engine to follow your reasoning - SINAD = Signal to noise and distortion ratio.

As you may have guessed, I also have a similar difficulty with much of what’s being presented on the ASR website.

For example, the $899 Topping DS90se DAC (no 1 on their list) is said to have a metric value of 123dB at 4.2volts.

On the other hand PS Audio $6000 PerfectWave DirectStream DAC has a value of 75dB at 1.4 volts.

Now what does this really mean?

Obviously 123dB is better than 75dB, but for me anyway, it would be really helpful if there was some indicator of where the threshold of human hearing lies.

Another example might be if a turntable that has wow and flutter measurement of 0.1% and another has one of 0.01% and a third has one of 0.001%.

Obviously, less wow and flutter is better but again, where does the threshold of human hearing lie?

Yet another question, as you mentioned, might be, what about other possible relevant measurements?

Which ones are the most relevant?

Anyway, ASR is nevertheless a wonderful resource. Hopefully in time, as our own personal knowledge increases, more of this terminology will become clearer.

This reminds me of the problem I had when studying the Psychology module at university. The sheer amount of terminology being thrown at us really exasperated me.

I found it frustrating that they were using so many words and phrases that would have no meaning if I tried to use them on the street or with my family and friends.

It bothered me back then in the pre internet age, and I guess it still does now, albeit to a lesser extent.

Anyway, in the end, since folks like Amir have far, far more knowledge and experience than most of us here do, and their findings are open to scrutiny and challenge, then why not at least have a look?

+1 @ozzy62

lovely room, all that glass and foliage outside... but not so much for sound...

I think no DAC is the best DAC. Peachtree offers GAN amps that don't require a DAC. So, why spend $15k on a device to color the sound.

This reminds me of the problem I had when studying the Psychology module at university. The sheer amount of terminology being thrown at us really exasperated me.

I found it frustrating that they were using so many words and phrases that would have no meaning if I tried to use them on the street or with my family and friends.

It bothered me back then in the pre internet age, and I guess it still does now, albeit to a lesser extent.

Anyway, in the end, since folks like Amir have far, far more knowledge and experience than most of us here do, and their findings are open to scrutiny and challenge, then why not at least have a look?

I have and engineering/.science degree, but also took a course in psychology in uni and a biology course.
I don’t call myself a psychologist nor an expert on infectious diseases.

A lot of people do seem comfortable to opine on topics that that they are not necessarily expert in.

I own a CD player, and I do some DSP.
And my main experience is that we have been hearing since the 80s that CD would destroy vinyl in term on sound quality.

But I keep seeing digital systems that cost as much as some is comfortable spending or a lot more.

Maybe I am expert at at least knowing that measurements exist and that different perspectives could be worth considering?

Go for the Chord Qutest at about $1500 - $1800.  At that price, it is unbeatable.

I recently purchased a Chord Qutest.

cakyol is on the money. (“unbeatable price” lol). 

I currently own (and use) five very different DACS (AK240, AQ Dragonfly Cobalt, Bryston BDA3, Classe’ CDP10, and the Qutest). Don’t ask.

The obvious differences are use oriented features in input, output etc. The Qutest stands out by offering versatility but also ability to shape sound. Filtering options and voltage output. (If there’s such a thing as a “giant killer” here’s maybe a factor).

The Chord is interesting to my ears because it does stand out combining a naturalness with clarity..analytics but relaxed and non fatiguing.I am still playing with the filtering options! 
 

I can’t put my finger on it but it is anything but a typical DAC. And I do like all the other DAC’s I own but the Qutest is rapidly growing on me….

Holo Audio

Holo Audio

@rpurcz 

I think no DAC is the best DAC. Peachtree offers GAN amps that don't require a DAC. So, why spend $15k on a device to color the sound.

Good question! Especially when some technically superior ones come in under $1k.

Besides, haven't the differences in DACs grown progressively smaller year by year since the 1990s? 

By 2022 even most smartphones seem to come with acceptable DACs.

@holmz 

I own a CD player, and I do some DSP.
And my main experience is that we have been hearing since the 80s that CD would destroy vinyl in term on sound quality.

And that's the point, isn't it, albeit a contentious one.

We are all democratically entitled to have our opinions and the reader is free to decide what to make of them.

with due respect to other responders - there are clear and salient alternatives to the chord qutest, as good as a dac as it is

at $1500 used, the other terrific alternatives are, based on my travels through dac land... prime examples

- denafrips pontus

- soekris 1541 or newer model 2541

- mdht orchid or istanbul (for less money, about a grand), but doing a tube upgrade, perhaps with a tube adapter closes the cost gap some

qutest is excellent, on the clear and clean, slightly lean side of the spectrum... excellent spatial capabilities, filters are nice but barely perceptible, fixed output

denafrips and soekris provide the spatial excellence but more midrange midbass warmth and fullness many appreciate, xlr outputs, additionally the soekris adds remote volume capability and headphone out, big plusses for some

mhdt tube dacs are yang to the chord’s ying -- warm, flowing, slightly softer focus, more natural less robotic sound, more coherent top to bottom, more analog in presentation overall, a more rose colored glasses view of the world... many systems can benefit from this front end

just my 2 cents

Since we manufacturer audio products included a 101D DHT DAC with a separate 25lb power supply, we have heard so many DACs, etc.  There are no giant killers period.  There are good sounding DACs at their price points.  DACs in one persons system may not have the same SQ in your system.  We have 5 systems in our listening room in Northern New Jersey - all are welcome to come in and even bring some of your gear to hear how it may sound with the different speakers  we have in there.

You need to begin to lean what makes a component sound the way it does.  Tube vs SS.  Different tubes, different resistors, capacitors, chokes, etc.  Learn the basics and then you can get a better handle on what may work in your system.  I bet very few if any people hear have even heard a DHT product. Probably nobody has heard a DAC with V-Caps, Dueland Caps, Audio Note Caps, etc., let alone DACs with separate power supplies.  Hearing something at a show and not in your own system is nice but you still have no idea how it will change the sound in your own system.

Any one in NJ come by for a listen, we are always open to entertain.

Happy Listening.

Its a personal taste thing.

The best DAC I have owned is the Doge 7.

Better than  Lumin X1, Auralic G2 or any if them, Berkley Audio Aplha, or Danafrips Terminator which I have all owned and tested with my system.

VAC 70/70 and Wilson Sasha 

Also much cheaper

Dac's I own and sell

Wadax Reference DAC and streamer

CH Precision C1 will be upgraded to 1.2. All previous customers can get their Dacs upgraded.

Brinkmann Nyquist Mark 2

EMM Labs MA3

Hifi Rose 150 and RS250

NAD / Bluesound. 

Dac's should match the level of electronics, speakers etc you have. The Hifi Rose at $2495.00 rs250 is a great buy especially if you have a 2 channel/cinema system combo. The Wadax makes sense for guys who want ultimate systems, The CH Precision Factory certified $29K dac is a bargain with a HD streamer board. 

What's the point with a ranking List?  "punch above their price category? "  Most of the choices, recommendations from just about any corner of the market are subjective.  Some reviewers go cheap and cheerful and don't believe in pricey models and the same goes for reviewers who are only interested in the best sound, screw price.  And of course the great middle ground.  Don't make a choice by what you hear on YOUTUBE!  It's fraught with so many reasons why that's not the best way to go that I think are obvious and self explanatory.  Maybe the biggest reason is that some reviewers are much better at demonstrations than others, kind of like the brightest, most vivid tv set on the floor.  I always find a good starting point with many things is to find someone whose taste sinks up with yours, and build relationships where you can.  Then go and listen, taste, touch, and lock eyes with whatever you can.

Based Upon the Responses…it looks like buying a Bluesound NODE would be the best next step.  That would replace streaming from my iPad Pro and AirPort Express.  Then I could follow up later with a better DAC.  
The responses will help me narrow down the best Value in a DAC.

Hi,

Just my 2 cents and I am an importer/distributor for audio brands.

We have A/B tested slightly over 100 DAC's and approximately 30 different servers/streamers. The most overlooked part of digital is the actual set up. Running a separate router, upgraded connection from the router to the server/streamer and the digital cable from the DAC to the server/streamer.

In terms of DAC's, my personal favorite is the 130 lbs Aries Cerat Kassandra. However as a combination and at a much more realistic price point I really like the Rockna DAC's and matching Rockna Wavedream Net server/streamer. If I had to keep just 1 DAC for the remainder of my life it would be the Aries Cerat Kassandra paired with the Pink Faun 2.16 Ultra server/streamer.

There is lots of good digital product but it very difficult to find digital manufacturers that build both a server/streamer with the matching DAC and clock them together perfectly. I recommend that everybody buys their server/streamer first and then focuses on the DAC.

These are just my opinions so please be gentle and have a nice weekend.

Cheers,

@smer319 

The CH Precision Factory certified $29K dac is a bargain with a HD streamer board. 

A fine example of the kind of comment that only a high end dealer living in their high end world might come out with.

I bet even Stereopile would baulk at uttering such obvious drivel.

"The CH Precision Factory certified $29K dac is a bargain with a HD streamer board. "

I just ordered three, one for each one of my homes.  I got a 10% discount because i am a senior citizen. hahaha

The first question to ask yourself is what problem you're trying to solve. For example, when I bought a small-format desktop computer its sound output was awful because it used the minimal sound support on the motherboard and because there was so much electronic noise inside the box. I realized that this was a use case for the Griffin iMic I'd had in a drawer for years. Moving the D->A conversion outside the computer made a huge improvement even with a low-end, decades-old chip.

I took the same approach in the living room. My TV set is the hub for all the digital inputs, so I fed the TV's TOSlink optical digital output to an entry-level Schiit DAC and now hear a big improvement because the outboard DAC is so much better than what's in the TV.

So, how good is the DAC circuitry in the devices that are now in your system's signal chain? Adding a better DAC is a cost-effective way to improve the sound if what you have is marginal, just as choosing a better cartridge is the most cost-effective way to improve the sound you hear from your LPs.