Is Mark Levinson still considered up there with the best of the best?

I am waiting for ASR to measure them so I can decide if I should buy.

Must measure well since the Grand Poohbah Amir uses ML amps for his Revel Salons. At least when I last read his site.

If you want Mark Levinson the man's company and not his named company, you need to go to Daniel Hertz.

Daniel Hertz audio systems. Mark Levinson new company

Henry Kloss had way more impact than any of these boutique firms. He designed so many products that popularized quality sound and got those people hooked to go on to become audiophiles

The best of the best would be JMF Audio, CH Precision, and Solution, in no particular order. Levinson would still be considered very good audio equipment.

I am waiting for ASR to measure them so I can decide if I should buy.

The power relationship between designer, corporate CEO, and the marketing department are different for every company. Quite a few well-known high-end companies (not going to name names here) are little more than marketing departments, hiring designers on a as-needed basis with no engineering continuity between projects. The engineering staff is basically a revolving door, resulting in products that might sound good, but not much follow-through as older products are phased out and the original designers are long gone. When you see a lot of "churn" from year to year in the product line-up, that’s what’s happening behind the scenes.

If the marketing staff are the only element of continuity in the company, the products may physically look the same from year to year, but what’s inside can be quite different. This is especially true if parts of production are moved offshore, taking QC and service support with them.

If the founder, or spokesperson, don’t understand how their products work, there will be a superficial continuity, but the new-hire designers will have trouble understanding the previous products on a deeper level. The schematic doesn’t usually tell the whole story, and the previous designers may ... or may not ... have documented the design philosophy of what they were doing. We’re not talking about Apple-sized teams of scores or hundreds of engineers here; no, more like one, two or three people per audio company.

This is why I said in the previous post to pay attention to the designer, not the name of the company. If the company is the size of Apple or Microsoft, there is a continuity of engineering culture over the decades. This is not true of audio companies, where engineering "teams" are often no more than one to three people, so if they leave, basically nothing is left.

@lynn_olson  The designers don't always get to build the amp exactly the way they want to, when working for a manufacturer. I've heard Nelson pass say that when designing an amplifier for other companies they changed this and that to meet budget.

What matters is the designer, not the manufacturer or the promoter/salesman/marketer. The designer is responsible for the sound ... the marketer just sells it. If a manufacturer changes their house sound, that means the design staff has changed or moved on to greener pastures. This turnover is pretty common in the hifi biz because the actual hands-on designers are often poorly paid and their identity is hidden behind a corporate screen of Non-Disclosure-Agreements (NDA’s). By the way, never agree to an NDA in the hifi biz, especially if it is informal or based on a handshake agreement. That’s lawsuit territory. Don’t go there.

It’s fairly easy at a hifi show to know if you’re speaking to an actual engineer or designer versus a marketer. A marketer/salesman will hide behind a screen of vague buzzwords, and will get angry and dismissive if pressed hard enough. When I was wearing my Tech Editor hat, I was thrown out of exhibit rooms more than once by marketers at trade shows. By contrast, a real engineer or designer will be quite open and friendly, and will let you know if your questions are getting too close to NDA trade-secret territory.

I’ve done both marketing and designing, and they are very different things. Marketers are often technology-averse, and fall back on impressive-sounding buzzwords that don’t have any specific meaning. If they invoke Quantum anything, yes, you are dealing with a marketer and should leave quickly if you value your sanity and your wallet.

I have the opportunity to listen to used ML 333 and ML536 in comparison to used Krell FPB, Pass Lab X350, X600, and new generation amp

Class D amps .

For the price point , used ML 333 and 536 are still very good options and sounds better than any Class D amps 

From my personal experience  any new amp will be challenged  to keep up with a well serviced pair of 33h mono blocks. 

Don't get me wrong, he was involved in some great products, and no-one has mentioned Madrigal yet.

However he was involved with so many products he was like the Pierre Cardin of HIFI.

Mark, unfortunately, has a checkered past. But one cannot deny that his accomplishments are substantial. And that he is legendary in the Audio world.

I spent 3 days several years ago at T.H.E. Show in Las Vegas helping him run the room for his current line, Daniel Hertz. That room had among the best sound I have ever heard at a show and best ever.

The bio above is an interesting read. For sure, Mark did not “design” much, if any, components of his companies. However, as the owner of any company, he was responsible for working with the best people and creating, promoting and disturbing. I listened to him “promote” for three days straight and his charm and knowledge was as impressive as his gear.

In the above bio, I was very impressed that Mark’s great uncle was Heinrich Hertz (so the company name). And that he started his career by designing the mixing board for Woodstock. And that, as a bass player, he has played with some of the top Jazz guys.

Is Mark Levinson gear still up there with the best? Not really his Harman products branded with his name. But I believe Daniel Hertz stuff is absolutely among the top Audio products available. While not cheap, way more affordable than the stratospheric stuff.

Levinson was a very decent musician - Jazz at Long Wharf is a good LP.

68pete and rauliruegas, which caps are recommended for ML class AB amps? I have a 532h that I like a lot and had been considering 8 new fuses for the DC rails. Who does this cap work and do they match the caps in anyway? I understand this amp uses a bank of smaller caps and it seems like matching might be a good idea. I loved the sound of the old 33H monos, but they were too pricey to me.

Question for all, what is the harmon response curve that I've seen mentioned re Levinsons? Is it a little fullness in the bass with a slight roll off in the treble?

+1 @twoleftears

for the noobs and unaware, you might provide a synopsis of what has happened to revel owners and their speakers

ML is a bit of a shady character. When running Red Rose music he apparently re-badged a Chinese Dussen amp and sold it under the Red Rose Name for 7K. Also he's multi talented he and his former wife Kim Cattrall co-wrote a book on sex.

I should have did my homework a little better before I started this thread. John Curl was the chief designer behind Mark Levinson products when they were in their infancy and Mark Levinson was the man who promoted the product under his name? 

FULL DISCLOSURE:

My former dealership made some of the solid oak stands for the Levinson HQD system:

We also made some huge cabs for the Hartley 24" woofers that some HQD customers used.

What I can say as facts:  Levinson company was a VERY SLOW PAY, which is why we only made a few for them.  We were small and could not extend credit for months and months.   Next, compared to Audio Research gear in those days, his stuff was SHRILL and lacked depth and transparency on Magnepan speakers, which were (and remain) the best speakers for accurate listening. (I know, you can "measure" them and they lack this and that and the other.  Best advice is to listen to them IN YOUR ROOM with quality hardware and MAKE UP YOUR OWN MIND.)  Finally, we never sold much of his stuff because, as expensive as Audio Research was in those days (comparatively), his stuff was way more and sounded way less.  This is not to say the mil-spec parts and Curl designs were second rate, just that they did not SOUND good on revealing speakers, including his HQD speaker system.  But boy, those 24" Hartley's were the BOMB!

As for today, you have to listen for yourself IN YOUR ROOM and decide if it is for you.

Cheers!

Dear @68pete  : "" Once you get them recapped with good caps they preform great""

Rigth you are because I just made it that with the 20.6's and is a great quality improvement in its performance whole levels.

R.

I have always liked the Mark Levinson 3 series amps the 331  332  333    335 and the 336. Once you get them recapped with good caps they preform great. I did not like the 4 series and have not heard enough of the newer 5 series to form a opinion 

Interesting that John Curl once designed ML amps as the latest ML amps made me think of parasound sound with that added warmth in the mid bass.

They have new products out that are designed by a few top designers today.  The integrated amp (list price I think is $9500) is a really fantastic sounding unit.  One of the best SS units I have heard.  I believe that the people who designed this are working on other units. The integrated was musical, had dynamics, slam and nice separation of vocals and instruments.  If I was looking for a SS piece, it would be a top option for me.  I think the B class units are $5400.

Happy Listening.

My Lexus has a Mark Levinson system as well. Much better than an after market system. But it is also very much in line with the sound I associate with ML. My 4Runer has a JBL system… completely different, not at all accurate… very exaggerated, brassy, but kind of fun to listen to. 
 

Noisy environments are very different than quiet environments. High end sound in noisy environments sounds really flat. 

My Lexus LS has a Levinson system and I 5hink it's great for a car.

it has never been considered even close to the best , very good within the under $15k group , in Audio $100 k for a amplifier is very. Possible and exceptional .

unless you have a $$Million + to spend the best is out of reach for most of us .

John Curl designed a number of early Levinson products.

John also has some really interesting stories concerning that area of his audio design life....

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/warning-for-revel-lovers?highlight=revel%2Bcancel

@twoleftears What’s going on with Revel?  I don’t really follow them but seems like some of their models are a bit long in the tooth (i.e. Salon, Studio).

Dear @hiendmmoe  : I owned and own several ML amplifiers and I can tell you that if you have the quality level r00m/system ML were top tier amps with nothing to envy today very expensive amps like Dartzeel.

I own a pair of monoblcks 20.6 ML and here in my room/system and with other audio friends listened sessions not only competes with Dartzeel or Pass and D'Angostino but outperformed in some areas. 

At least my samples ( 30+years design. ) are a true challenge to other today amps.

Btw, I like a lot your Utopia's. Btw, too your cartridge model is not Umani but Umami Red.

Looking to other gentleman posts in this thread I think that maybe their those times room/system just were not good enough for ML amps or your MUSIC/sound targets/priorities are extremely special.

I can't speak for today ML because I have not yet the opportunity to give an audition.

Btw, in 30+ years my amps never failed and been true pure Class A runs really hot and in my city the temperature is not cold and I have not air conditioned.

The 20.6 design is a bullet proof one.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,

R.

Well... I only had ML in 2 Lexus 470's...I thought the system sound was excellent for car sound (better than Harmon/Burmester Benz and Porsche had) but nowhere near the Meridan System in the Rover...

Well I have heard B&O and JBL branded cars and I much prefer the JBL sound, for whatever that is worth

+2 @twoleftears 

+1 twoleftears. 

Mark Levinson is an American high-end audio equipment brand established in 1972 by eponymous founder Mark Levinson, and based in Stamford, Connecticut. It is owned by Harman International Industries, a subsidiary of Samsung Electronics.

Harman markets its products under various brands, including AKG, AMX, Arcam, Bang & Olufsen Automotive, Becker, BSS Audio, Crown, dbx, DOD Electronics, DigiTech, Harman Kardon, Infinity, JBL, Lexicon, Mark Levinson, Martin, Revel, Soundcraft and Studer.

Look at what's been happening with Revel recently.  Need I say more?

My only experience with ML is with a car system. It's downright awful.

I never considered ML to be top gear. There is far better. I remember their disastrous sounding first digital amp for a lot of $$$. Could take your ears off. I rushed out to hear it as I was very interested. One of the brightest and driest sounding amps I ever heard. Even the salesman admitted he didn’t like it. 

Doesn’t help that their products are so rarely reviewed.  You’d think if Harmon believed in the products and wanted to get them more exposure they’d reach into their deep pockets and do some advertising.  To many other stellar options out there for me to get interested in a relative unknown, especially at their price levels. 

I had no534 for a few years. Sounded great until I tried a similar type amp that was much less expensive and easily sounded better. This was with Focal Scala evo speakers 

My understanding is that Mark Levinson remains top tier. I haven’t heard it in a while. But it was never my cup of tea. But my impressions mirror @erik_squires. It has never moved me. Great specs and dynamics… just to clinical to me.

Not had a chance to do very much auditioning, but I heard them with Magico 3 years ago while ago and was not moved the way I was for Luxman or D’Agostino or CAT which I heard about the same time.

Another brand I like a lot after a short audition is the Vandersteen amps. I don't mention them cause they are too rich for my blood, but since we're talking ML ...

im with bdp24, john curl now of parasound was the chief designer of mark levinson. when he left things changed drastically.  when they were brought out by harmon kardin it has been a disaster.  they have had nothing but design and durability problems since and the sound has changed with it.    

John Curl designed a number of early Levinson products.

Fear not …. It is still top-shelf …full stop.

The newest ML gear is certainly expensive enough to place it in the upper tiers of high-end gear. Can it compete with the likes of CH Precision, DartZheel and Soulution? These are six-figure components!

Tom Colangelo (RIP) designed the first generation of ML gear - ML1 preamp, ML2 mono amps and the ML3 amp. Mark Levinson just financed the company. 

I'm not aware that Mark Levinson (the person) ever designed anything audio related (always thought of him in an owner/PR sense).

DeKay