The good news is, one day in the near future, these technologies will be worth $500. I cannot blame the engineers for wanting to capitalize on their research and development. Too bad a lot of us won’t be around to enjoy them. I am glad that digital is moving forward.
Is it possible to find a good DAC for under $50, 000?
Apparently, the good folks at The Absolute Sound have you covered.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nItR8Z6CCWE
(Audiophiles are never going to shed their out of touch reputation with journalism like this. I'm sorry, but it's just so tone deaf.)
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It’s very possible to find the best DAC under 50K; In fact it can be had for less than 30k; Playback Designs MPD-8; Designed by one of the best and brightest digital engineers we have been fortunate enough to have in our era. Make no mistake, products by Andreas and his team, are truly masterpieces in the digital/analog conversion realm. Happy hunting and enjoy the music! |
@spenav Back in the late '50's, when I was 12, I put together a "great sounding, immersive" 6-watt mono system based on an amplifier my dad built, a record changer I scavenged out of a discarded console, and 6 speakers similarly scavenged from a variety of sources. This all went into my playroom in our basement, a space shared with my Marx train layout and the two-foot wide 15-foot-long piece of vinyl, wood-grain flooring that defined my "bowling alley" along one wall. Room treatments were minimal. The larger speakers were firing through holes in wood panels leaning against two corners of the room and the smaller speakers were just sitting willy-nilly where there was some space. NO attempt to simulate stereo, just the fact that I had only been able to scavenge two speakers bigger than 4x6 inches. All these were wired up in series/parallel, so the tube driven, transformer output amp did not distort too badly. Fun times, and I and my equally non-discerning friends listened to it play 45s for hours on end until my mom suggested we go out and play in the street. I have added to and upgraded my audio hardware and media basically every year since, with one singular goal - enjoying the music. I no longer have any of that seminal system, but I still enjoy music, even with my declining hearing ability. In the many intervening years, I have bought and sold the good, the bad and the ugly, to folks with far more and far less money than I possessed at the time, and I have never said what they own or want sounds bad or is a bad idea - only that they might do better for their money. I have noted what I prefer, why, and for what kind of music in what listening situation, but in music reproduction there are NO absolutes. Trends, situations, design limits and optimizations abound, but it all comes down to preferences, room and financial constraints, and what genetics and environmental abuse have contributed to one individual's hearing ability at the moment. At this stage in my life, I will never buy a $50,000 DAC or even a $5,000 one, but I enjoy the banter here and look closely for guidance on a corporate family relationship where a manufacturer may offer something I can justify purchasing one of their less esoteric examples of today's technology - and I sincerely hope that newcomers to this hobby do as well. We all, and they, had to start somewhere, and inflation has taken a toll since the day when I was near graduating from high school and the senior class was listening to a college interviewer proudly proclaim that we all might be able to look forward to making as much as a Million Dollars IN TOTAL over our entire careers. Who then could envision ANYONE spending that much just to listen to recorded music in their own home? I have seen comments above about envy, ego, ability to discern or even hear at all, relative value vs. other hobbies, bias, and needing to make a buck to fund the research to design something better or at least different. All those factors contribute to motivating someone to strive to create, just as the composers of what we listen to have striven. That those of us with the wherewithal to purchase SOME level of componentry such that we can enjoy recorded music in our homes is a true luxury that only a few percent of every human ever blessed with ears has enjoyed. We are the fortunate few, and I thank you all for sharing your insights with the rest of us here. |
Exactly my point. The question this leaves me with is, Who is he reviewing for if most people wouldn't be able to tell a difference at this price point? |
@hilde45 He's speaking to the well heeled audiophile and non audiophile, also to those who aspire to have the very best. I don't understand why some bash these types of components out of hand, at least some of these sky high priced components are moving the technology forward, especially in the digital realm. Over time, if there i truly is new technology at work here, it will eventually trickle down into the more affordable category. So unless you believe audio hasn't progressed, this is how it works. Based on my experience and many others, digital in general, and streaming digital in particular is making great strides in presenting a more resolving and analog like listening experience, it will get even better with affordable components going into the future. |
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I would like recommendations for a good DAC and streamer. For someone whose components are around $20k, and speakers are around $50k, what would you recommend for a DAC and streamer (separates or combo)? Learning about DACs and streamers is very frustrating. |
@unclewilbur - Below is a basic overview. At your price points, I recommend looking at these guys for reasonably priced servers and streamers. Their support is good and their servers are configured to directly rip/upload your CDs when connected to the server via a CD drive.
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Thank you for your great response! After dinner i will research your whole list. Eventually I might learn more about DACs and streamers, but I’m just beginning. Last night I did some preliminary searches and made a haphazard list. I will show the list below, but keep in mind, I’m not very confident in knowing much! And the list probably has errors like price, etc. DACs
PS...The T+ A DAC/Streamer/Preamp was interesting to me. Besides looking nice the combination of components is interesting. I have a lot to study!!! |
@hilde45 listen I would arrange for you to hear out INFIGO METHOD 4 DAC. Just heard against the Lampizator Horizon 360 and I would just like you to hear it. If interested pm me. |
@unclewilbur - Take your time and do your research. You may not get it perfect on the first swing. Most of us didn't. Consider how you want to interact with your system as some of the server products are more difficult to interface than others. I had one server where I had to connect a screen and keyboard to make any changes or access my music file library. With my SGC server, I can do all of that headless (i.e., on my iPac or phone), which is much easier for me. Good luck. |
Gotcha. I do believe audio has progressed, and I suspect DACs have gotten a lot better, relatively recently. Let me clarify my point a bit so that my target is a bit more in focus, and then agree with you in two different ways. First, my point is that if there is a difference to be heard at this price point, anyone who listens to it (however well-heeled they are) has to have a room dialed in so that it can be heard. I guess I have not come across very many audiophile rooms that are dialed in (room, gear, etc.) to the point where the difference between a $50k DAC and a $20k DAC would be perceptible. But I grant your point that they’re out there. (Oh, and a well-heeled audiophile would also have to be disciplined enough to avoid confirmation bias, placebo effect, in addition to having a dialed-in room. So, probably even fewer of those out there. Still, they exist.) Your second point about trickle down technology is excellent. If what is needed for technology to progress is for engineers to reach way beyond current budgets to make improvements, then this is how it will happen. My only caveat to the latter point is this: sometimes companies and their engineers go on wild goose chases – spending a lot of money and time on something which does *not* result in clearly better results. The problem is, with for-profit companies, they often do not want to disclose that (to try to recoup some costs) and proceed to hype it and sell it as if it was a success. (That’s where compliant journalism and helpful algorithms come in.) In such cases of hyped failures, there's no trickle down and, one might even argue, there is a backlash effect that makes people skeptical about the whole audiophile venture. Only journalists (or some kind of regulatory agency, LOL) willing to call B.S. on meaningless products can help the public see that. |
I have been hesitant to wade into this discussion because there seems to be a fair amount of negativity surrounding the particular subject. And, a lot of belief that may or may not be supported by direct evidence. Can you hear the difference a more expensive DAC brings? While I’m sure there are units that do not bring more to the table, in my case, they did. My first “good” DAC was the Auralic Vega G2.1. I was fully satisfied with it and felt I was done. My dealer suggested I audition the T+A DAC 200. Smart dealer. I purchased it after an extensive (2 week) audition at home. I sold the Auralic and again felt I was done. After about a year, then that same dealer had me try the T+A SDV 3100 DAC . At first I was disappointed because it didn’t sound better out of the box - but it wasn’t broken in. It is now fully broken in and I sincerely doubt there is anyone on this thread that would not easily prefer the more expensive unit. The DAC 200 is very, very good - certainly the best I’ve heard in its price bracket. Many others feel the same. It’s a special DAC. Yet, the new unit is better in every way. It’s not my imagination. Nor is it confirmation bias at work. I had justified upgrading because I fully intended to put the DAC 200 in a separate system. But, I’ve been so pleased with the new unit that I bought another one for that system when I found one pre-owned (very lightly used for a headphone system only) and will be selling the DAC 200. My rooms are not heavily treated though I’m attentive to network details and have done what I can on setup. But, yes you can hear the benefits of better DACs. Of course, I’m skeptical like many of you. Some units are expensive eye candy. And some are not my cup of tea. But, others truly are better. Measurably and audibly, and demonstrably so. It would have been better for my wallet were it not true. |
Thanks for your report. You sound like a careful and sensitive listener. Your report provides a strong data point against my skeptical remarks. Appreciated. |
@hilde45 Good points. As for the professional reviewer vs amateur/owner reviews. I presume at a certain level per this particular reviewer, he has access to virtually all audio components at all price levels. So, I'd suggest this kind of reviewer will have much less attachment to the equipment, one pretty face can be easily replaced by another. Now there is the question of financial incentives with prof. reviews and reviewers. As for the amateur/owner reviews, I'm always mindful of the possibility of attachment/confirmation bias with this, the idea being we present/believe our choices based solely on objective analysis.
As for the expensive flavor of the month component. The test of time will bring out the true value.
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For those who can afford a $50K and higher DAC, more power to them. I hope they enjoy them immensely. But if I could afford a $50K DAC, I’d have to ask myself if I’d be happier just staying all analog via LP and eliminating any digital mess at all? I mean, if you can afford a $50K DAC, you likely could afford buying a few LPs. At $30 a pop, for the same amount of money you could buy 1666 LPs and listen in all their analog glory, not worrying about zeros and ones at all. If each LP lasted about 40 minutes, then you'd have over 1100 HOURs of music to enjoy. |
@knittersspouse - Glad to see that you have been at it for a while. At the end of the day, it’s all about enjoying the music. I am very bullish about digital. I think that’s the future: we will match the best table sound at a fraction of the cost. I also believe that Stereo is here to stay: 2 channels done correctly as intended by the inventor of the stereo format is enough to take you to heaven. Not long ago a 5 MD hard drive was around $30, 000 and could hold 5 photos. It also required a truck to move it. |
@gano See? There is a sense of humor around 'here'... Personally @hilde45 , I'm just glad the mistroke space was a knee-jerk on my part...but did get to the mid-point of the vid.👍 But when he launched into a cymbal crash and intimated that DAC could potentially allow one to recognize the make of it... Didn't happen...almost disappointed...😏👍 Instructive in its' way, thanx. J |
What a thread. You could change the topic to cables, amps, speakers, etc... and there will be bashers coming out of there holes in the ground. If the price discussed was $500.00, there would be replies stating that you can't possibly get anything good at that price point. This one is two decimal points to the right and we have bashers at that amount as well. I'm willing to bet that there is a wine forum out there where a discussion about a $100.00 bottle of Bordeaux is ludicrous when you can go to Trader Joe's and buy a perfectly fine bottle of "Two Buck Chuck" which is deemed just as good. This reminds me of the saying; don't criticize until you've walked a mile in the other person's shoes. The same applies here. |
It’s gotten a lot of discussion going, including your comment. Must be something interesting going on here. You see, it’s not just about bashing. It’s about whether there is a point at which sensible effects cannot be discerned. At that point, it becomes either an exercise in confirmation bias and/or faith. People are interested in the qualities that these components are able to produce and – here’s a defense of those "bashing" the DAC – their skepticism is not coming from a place of abject ignorance but from a desire for some evidence that something could be discerned at these higher price points. Perhaps you’re someone who can hear the differences. That’s cool. I’d love to know what you were able to hear and the affiliated equipment, conditions, etc. Otherwise, you're just bashing the bashers. We live in a consumerist culture; there's a lot of false claims and hyperbole out there. I think some of us are a bit less credulous than others. |
Let's face it, a manufacturer can price their equipment at any price they want. It comes down to whether their claims amount to something a buyer can hear. When I restarted my audio journey 10 years ago, I was trying to get the most performance from the least amount of money. After lots of listening/relistening, I ended up realizing that sometimes you have to pay the money in order to get the sound you are wanting/expecting. I started with a Bluesound Node, but realized that things could get better sound by going with separates. Lots of DAC's later, I got a lead on the Brinkmann Nyquist II. It just blew away all the other DAC's I had (albeit, they were in the $2K range). I never thought I would spend so much on a DAC, but I did, and I have no regrets. Whether the DAC listed in the original post outperforms my Brinkmann, I have no idea, but at that price, it has to make the performers come to life, literally. Bob |
A lot of high tech/high end DACs are listed here for your consideration. But, in addition to these technologically-advanced models, you should hear something like the ultra primitive Audio Note DACs. These things use some very old chips and have spectacularly poor measured performance. And yet, to my ears anyway, they deliver the goods in terms of a natural, harmonically dense and musical sound. The top models are crazy expensive, but their lower priced models, while not cheap, deliver most of the goods of the top models (all of their DACs have similar digital circuitry, it is in the analogue stage that the high priced models utilize much better parts), The Audio Note stuff delivers a different sound. You may prefer it or you may not, but, it is worth exploring because it is quite different. |
I also started from scratch about 10ys ago
Same here, trying to squeeze Sonics at the least cost
Yes - I had to double my budget and I’m still upgrading towards my endgame electronics. Brinkmann Nyquist II - great choice- non-sterile and engaging
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It would need to have at least 10 cabinets per side. Half dedicated to power reproduction, then 2 128 CPU servers with 4 nVidia 5090s to use AI to re-imagine the music at a billion samples per second with 256 bit resolution. I mean seriously, if your DAC didn't cost half a million and raise electricity prices for the rest of the state do you even like music? |
OP "...It’s about whether there is a point at which sensible effects cannot be discerned." Good question. Not in my experience. I have heard well set up systems at price points out to the stratosphere... they are all very distinctive in terms of many variables. If assembled by competent audiophiles the sound directly correlates with the sound quality. The trained ears / brain are capable of incredible differentiation of sound qualities. Audiophilia is about pursuing perfection. While the refinements may seem small, the overall impact is significant as music is nearly infinitely variable and complex (compare to a single tone). |
I just upgraded to a Naim NP555 with its corresponding 555DR PS power supply. While it did not reach the dollar threshold of the unit in the video, it was a big acquisition for me. I could not be happier. My Cary DMS-600 was an excellent unit, but the Naim has shown me what I had been missing. The extended dynamics, detail, and soundstage are staggeringly good. I'm a hard core vinyl guy, but this is very nice. |
Late to the party fthompson251, but that's a very important point. I made the assumption that the rest of the system would be highly resolving, but it's certainly possible with a system of less resolving components even an audiophile with developed hearing could miss the value of adding a 50K DAC. Great point! |
No, it not possible. If you don't spend at least $100k for a DAC, there is always a chance someone else may waste more money than you on a DAC, and therefore believes his is better than yours. Plus, you already spent $10k for a few feet of cable, now you start skimping on a DAC? Whats next, a power outlet for under $1k? What has the world (of HiFi) come to? Just the THOUGHT alone makes me shiver. |
Facts as I know things; 1) people value things differently, 2) people spend on things they value and can afford, and 3) people satisfy base level needs (food) before higher level stuff (stereo) Finally I just bought a new DAC in the MSB line. It sounds better than my older and less expensive DAC from their line. Yes there are diminishing returns. Most non audiophile people think we're nuts. |
@skinzy - Well said, I agree. BTW, very nice room you have. I really like the built-ins, quarter sawn oak molding and drawers, and hammered pulls. It looks like a great place to listen with a fire on a winter day!
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Just for fun.... Facts as I know things: 1) people value things differently; sometimes, they think they are valuing something based on a what they would consider a good reason, and sometimes they fool themselves. This often leads to them chasing their own tail, wasting money (which they may not be intending to do), and avoiding improving other aspects of their system that would lead to sonic improvements that they desire. 2) people spend on things they value and can afford but sometimes they waste their money on things they think they value but are wrong about it. If I buy a beautiful car because I value how it looks, but it breaks down once a week, I have made a mistake. 3) people satisfy base level needs (food) before higher level stuff (stereo) – probably good to check with people who have gotten divorced over audio. |
This is Vlad from Audio MIrror. Many cheaper DACs can sound better than more expensive ones. I have two models that outperform many other DACs with much higher prices. Tubadour VI is one of them - $7500 and big brother - WAVE Tube DAC - $22000. Both will be officially launched in 1-2 weeks. WAVE Tube DAC debuted at Axpona 25. I did some comparisons with other DACs. Tubadour VI outperforms Lampizator Pacific big time. WAVE Tube DAC sound equal to TAIKO Olympus with build in DAC. |
