I own a 507ux, and heard lots of Pass and the 509ux as well. The two are in no way the same amp. Full stop. Before you switch to Pass you must listen for yourself. You will come away with one of two opinions:
- You'll think Pass is incredible
- You can't imagine leaving Luxman.
I personally do not like Pass. I find it lean at best, and scratchy at worst. Like it pulls my ears. I like a lot of Class D amps more than I like Pass designs. However, I recognize I am very much in the minority here, and I don't know which camp you'll fall into but I absolutely do not recommend switching "blind" here.
If you do get to listen though another brand to consider is Ayre. Also a different sounding amp from both Luxman and Pass.
My point, BTW, is definitely not to convince you that I'm right and others are wrong, just that these amps sound so dissimilar to my ears I can't suggest you personally switch without listening.
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P.S.. - From what I've gleaned talking to A'goners, who were able to be more objective about Pass than most, they are pretty speaker dependent. They sounded really good with some speakers, especially big fat speakers like Tannoy's and JBL studio monitors. Keep this in mind while auditioning or asking for recommendations.
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Interesting that you find Pass to be 'lean'. From all my reading of Pass and their lower end heft, I would have thought it provides a bigger, fuller body to music; which is to my liking. I guess that's why being able to listen for oneself is so important. It's unfortunate that is not an option for me in my location, without purchasing.
Good to know from those objective and in the know that Pass are pretty speaker dependent. It sounds like my Coherent speakers may be a better fit for Pass than my Marten's as they are somewhat similar to the Tannoy's.
Can anyone tell me the differences between the Luxman 550axii vs 590axii
I really like the 550 however I wish for an even fuller sound. This is why I am contemplating either moving up to 590 or Pass Labs. Will the 590 provide a noticeable upgrade in this regard?
Erik: Does the Ayre provide a bigger, fuller presentation than Luxman?
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A fella is selling his Pass Labs Int-250 Integrated for a fairly reasonable $8,500 dollars on U.S. Audio Mart. This thing cranks; it’ll make 500 wpc into 4 ohms. Like all other Pass AB amps, it is biased in Class A for something like the first 20 or 30 watts, then it becomes an AB amp. This is a good one! Here it is:
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I own the Pass INT25 and use Tannoy 15" dual concentrics.
Your speakers I have not heard but they sound very similar.
I have an older Luxman Receiver in use in my office and
I like that as well. I do not see the differences that others
mentioned here.
I have heard Luxman INTs recently at $5k and at $10k.
In my mind they sounded excellent. Of course they were in well
setup rooms with excellent speakers.
You can buy Pass gear with a trial period from Reno Hi-Fi.
You do not mention a specific goal so I assume it
is overall next notch up for SQ?
Have you considered a Tube INT?
That would produce a different sound
and since you like the soft, big sound
you might really be happy with a tube INT.
The one I have my eye on in the new ARC I-50
at $5k. I am waiting for my mentor to listen to it
and advise me his thoughts.
Post more in the future. I like your system!
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Hi Chorus, thank you for your post.
For the past couple of years I've had the pleasure of a nice 2A3 amp/preamp setup which I absolutely loved with my high efficient Coherent's but I'm moving away from that. I found that I was constantly worrying about the usual downsides to tube gear such as potential tube failure and degradation etc... It got to the point where I wasn't able to enjoy the music the way I should have been and found myself listening more out of my SS amp because of it.
I guess I'm trying to re-create as much as possible the sound I was getting from my tube gear - big, detailed yet relaxing, present (in the room) sound without harshness. I would say that my current Luxman has gotten me the closest thus far to that sound but I'm hoping for a bit more body or fullness and a touch more warmth (bottom end maybe??).
How would you describe the sound you are getting from your Pass INT25 and Tannoy's?
How would you describe the differences between the Pass and Luxman gear you've had the opportunity to listen to?
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I own the L-509X paired with Audio Note AN-K/SPx SE speakers.
The overall sound is open, relaxed, and natural sounding. I think it's a great pairing. Great at low volumes with the Loudness feature on, great at higher volumes with the Loudness off.
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Excellent, thank you for chiming in on the synergy you are getting with the Luxman and Audio Note speakers.
I was able to briefly listen to a pair (I believe they were either a 'J' or 'E' model) at an Audio Show and I was smitten by their fullness and naturalness of sound.
Have you had an opportunity to pair them with any Class-A amp?
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The L-509X is biased to run Class A for the first 6 watts. The AN-Ks are 90dB efficient. Given my setup, I do most of my listening under 6 watts/Class A.
👍
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I own a 505uxii and love the simplicity of it. I was looking at a INT-25 or INT 60 but I like the fact that the Luxman integrateds have phono and headphone stages. I didn't want to have to spend more money on phono/headphone amps and additional cables.
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Interesting that you find Pass to be 'lean'. From all my reading of Pass and their lower end heft, I would have thought it provides a bigger, fuller body to music; which is to my liking.
Yea, I don't personally get the description or hear Pass to be 'lean', at all...; as someone who currently owns the XA30.8, have owned the X250.8, Bryston 4B3, Benchmark AHB2, and Modwright KWA 100SE, I would personally place the Pass on the slower rounded side compared to all of the others I mentioned. To me the Pass adds depth and meat to the sound, and if that is what you like, like I seem to, it sounds so life-like and easy to listen to. The most recent additions to my system to compare against the Pass amps were the AHB2 and 4B3 and I felt they both offer a more resolving and leaner presentation (still smooth though); you hear more of the recording, but I thought they also lost some of the 3d like humans are playing in your room quality I hear from the Pass.
The only recent Luxman I've heard was the C-900/M-900 combo driving the speakers I ended up purchasing and now own, at a local dealer. I thought they sounded great, lots of detail and very smooth; I wouldn't call either of the two Pass amps I've owned 'lean' compared to the Luxman separates.
Definitely try to listen for yourself...; worse case either a Luxman or Pass shouldn't be hard to re-sell if you grab one and end up not being happy with the purchase.
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Great posts from those with first hand experience and knowledge. I really appreciate all of your personal thoughts and feelings on specific gear!
ddafoe: "depth and meat to the sound" is a good descriptor of how I also like my music presentation. To me, it's about finding the right balance of having enough 'meat to the sound' and natural realism without losing too much detail. And I guess that is where I am at in looking for something that will provide more of that than my current Luxman L-550axii.
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@ddafoe
So the Bryston 4B3 was leaner than the Pass X250.8?
Is the bass more controlled in the 4B3 or is the X250.8
just fuller? I’m looking for an amp for my Magnepans
which needs an amp with meat on the bones.
Pass or Bryston?…….
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I think you guys are talking about bloom… it the opposite of thin… where individual sounds are fully fleshed out, typically midrange bloom is the term used but I have found it can be applied to bass as well.
Low>……………..High
Bryston….Pass…………………….Audio Research
When I moved from a Threshold s500 (Pass)… to a Pass x350 the earlier amp sounded thin. Then I swapped in an Audio Research 160s I was stunned how thin the Pass sounded. It can be relative.
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So the Bryston 4B3 was leaner than the Pass X250.8?
Is the bass more controlled in the 4B3 or is the X250.8
In my system driving Spendor D9s which are very easy to drive I found the 4B3 to offer a slightly tighter and faster bass. I also found the Bryston to be just a tad more forward and resolving compared to the X250.8, and yes a slightly more leaner sound. I also found the X250.8 to be slightly faster, more resolving, and a tad more lean than the XA30.8 with my speakers. Compared to the pre NRB 4B I used to own many years ago, I was amazed how smooth and refined the 4B3 is. I kept the Pass simply because to me it offered a better 3d front to back soundstage compared to the 4B3 or AHB2. I think the XA30.8 beats the X250.8 by a tad in this category in my system. I can certainly see other folks liking the sound of the these other two very fine amps more to their liking as well compared to the Pass amps.
I never once noticed my XA250.8 leaving its 18w class A bias which is why I switched to the XA30.8 :)
I've been tempted to try the Luxman L-590AXII with my speakers but am happy with my separates and prefer the flexibility to match pre and amp. I really wish Luxman offered the amplifier out of that integrated in a standalone power amp...
Cheers
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I bought the 550AII when it first came out and years later in another system a 550AX. I don't think the thought lean ever came to my mind in the 4 or 5 combined years I owned them. Is it possible that this is coming from another part of the system?
Erik_squires I haven't read many of your posts but most of the ones I have seen tend to say in some way that the Pass (in your opinion) is not as (insert descriptor) sounding as the Luxman or Ayre. Can you give some context to the pairing because you say this a lot but it would be helpful to understand why, and with what pairing you had these results. I can relate, as I once bought a pair of speakers that should have been a progression in my mind (and in the opinion of many others) but I found them to be grating and highly irritating over time, despite several room and gear changes.
Me_ohmy I almost purchased a pair of Coherent 12's but just couldn't get anywhere to hear them at the time. I also couldn't get my mind around the driver mods he was making and despite a thumbs up from someone else that owned them, I passed them by. If you wouldn't mind a few words about them on a thread or directly, I'd appreciate it. Frank seems like a great guy with a real passion for speakers. He loves them with with 8 WPC, another thing I couldn't get my head around- but it sounds like maybe you want higher power. I've had several Luxman amps through my house including the class A separates and the 590AII. I don't think you can go wrong with any of them. They will give more presence, finesse (while actually providing better control). You wouldn't be giving up anything leaving the 550 for the 590 IMHO.
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It does not matter what other people’s opinions are. Your system is not the same as theirs so nothing they say will make a difference. The only thing that matters is how it works in your system. We have a listening room with probably close to 30 different pieces of equipment. Our reference equipment does not always sound the best. We learned that certain things just don’t work together to produce the best sound. Blanket statements like this one sounds that way compared to the other are completely useless. You have to try them in your system period.
Happy Listening
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I sold my PASS XA25 and bought an LTA Tube Amp. The Pass is very good, but the LTA puts out a better sound in many ways, for my ears, quite clearly. The LTA has a liquid and transparent midrange, amazing, precise highs (every little tinkle :) and a beautiful, superior, high definition bass--at least with good open baffle speakers. I join the chorus that says you must listen and compare Pass to your favorites before buying, whatever the inconvenience. At least, for now, there will be some audio shows in 2020--go to one.
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Audio shows don’t tell you much, different room, different speakers. Nevertheless, they will still give you a rough idea.
I don’t know about Pass Labs. I did shortlist the INT60 for my Marten Duke 2 but got the Luxman L-590AXII instead. Initially I was having problems with the Naim / Luxman pairing (the combination sounded unnatural and a bit bright at the top) so that forced the investigation of a new amp. When the Luxman L-590AXII got into the system, everything sounded just right. There is a certain rightness to the sound as music just flows out beautifully from the speakers and with ease. Personally I find the Luxman an engaging amp, neutral with very low coloration.
I understand you currently have the L-550axii and Marten Django L. I think most here have given good advice. It is best if you can listen to both Pass and Luxman in your system with the Django L but that’s not always possible. Nevertheless, I believe you will be going forward rather than backward if you pick the 590AXII. As for the Pass Labs, nobody knows at the moment.
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I have never heard a pass product in my own system but I do have the lux550 mark II. I have tried it with three solid but different speakers. IMO the lux balances best with high efficiency vintage klipsch, which take advantage of the dynamic capabilities of the Luxman and are rolled off on top. My experience is that the Luxman is absolutely fantastic, incredible resolution and dynamics, but tends to accentuate brightness in your speakers if present.
If you can’t hear them side by side, check out Steve guttenberg review of the Luxman 95th anniversary something or other where he compares it to pass separates. He describes the pass as being warmer, rounder, and less exciting but still pretty, basically.
Perhaps you should just buy a Pass integrated (int25 would be my suggestion considering your efficient speakers) and sell the one you don’t like. Alternatively try the Luxman tube integrated or separates they are supposedly fantastic
But my real suggestion is, you will realize a much much bigger difference by changing your speakers and sticking with the amp that suits your lifestyle, rather than messing about with sources and electronics. If you want meat on bones and high efficiency, check out the Devore orangutan line. You can get used o/93s for less than any of these fancy amps you are talking about here… and in addition if you swap speakers after swapping amps, you may find the new speakers call for a different amp anyway, and then you will be back at square 1. Pick speakers first then match electronics second, is my opinion.
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*^on reading again, I meant of the three speakers I have used it with the Luxman complemented high efficiency, rolled off sound of vintage klipsch versus more traditional British monitors
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Luxman. In my opinion more bang for the buck. I have the L-507uX mark ii, discontinued, paired with Tannoy Gold Reference Sterlings. Beautiful Amp beautiful speakers and sound.
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I think as we all know & many here said before, the amp / speaker pairing is critical both in terms of efficiency / power needs, actual speaker impedance & of course, your taste. I've owned a Luxman integrated amp before, enjoyed & appreciated tits sound & build quality. I recently bought a Rogers High Fidelity EFH 200 Mark II tube integrated amp & love it! Very powerful but also has great detail, nuance, depth & seemingly very high build quality handmade in MA. Roger's products are pricey but I think still a good value for you get along w/ a lifetime warranty. If you can try one, it might be just what you're looking for. I think they have a 30 day trial period as well.
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Interesting that you find Pass to be 'lean'. From all my reading of Pass and their lower end heft, I would have thought it provides a bigger, fuller body to music; which is to my liking.
Me three. That really surprises me, but i've not really heard that product. It was mentioned that that integrated is speaker dependent. I wonder why? His designs typically have minimal global feedback, if any, and sufficient drive current. I will say that i -- for this reason among others _ i always work extra hard to have amps (or amp sections in integrateds) that essentially don't care about the speaker.
Anyway good luck with your quest. I dont know your speakers but your cursory overview gives me puase and make sme think maybe they ought o be job #1
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The 590AXII has been discontinued. A new version is coming out in the future w/many of the upgrades of the 595SE. I heard the 595 back in November at my local dealers store. Jeff Sigmund of Luxman America was there demoing the integrated w/a pair of 10K Paradigm Persona floor standers. I would check around and see if any 590's are available. They are being sold to acquire the 595.
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We had the 507 and the coda csib had a bigger sound stage and greater clarity
This unique integrated amp
Is the same smplifier as the award winning .8
For nearly the same price as just the powe amp so it’s like getting a free preamp
The integrated can be ordered as a 150 watt CLASS A amp with the first 8 watts pure class A
If you need more power you can have the amp rebiased
To provide 400 watts of power
Rhe coda is made in the usa with a 10 year warranty
If you are looking for a killer integrated at a great price
Check out the csib
Dave and troy
Audio intellect nj
Coda dealers
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The Coda is great but for the money the lights should turn off when you power it down. Looks a bit like a Star Wars prop but a favorite of mine so far. I thought the lack of a volume knob would bother me but over time it's nice to be able to fine tune. It's one I'm sad to have sold. If anyone has a slightly used model or demo please message me.
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re: Dave and troy
Given that the OP quite clearly described his interest in just two brands, I find it off-putting that you would barge in and attempt to denigrate one of them with a comparison to one that you happen to sell.
I don't doubt that the Coda Csib is a very good amp, but the OP wasn't asking for other options, and your approach reeks of the type of aggressive selling techniques that would likely turn off many prospective customers.
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Freaking Vultures.
We had the 507 and the coda csib had a bigger sound stage and greater clarity
This unique integrated amp
Is the same smplifier as the award winning .8
For nearly the same price as just the powe amp so it’s like getting a free preamp
The integrated can be ordered as a 150 watt CLASS A amp with the first 8 watts pure class A
If you need more power you can have the amp rebiased
To provide 400 watts of power
Rhe coda is made in the usa with a 10 year warranty
If you are looking for a killer integrated at a great price
Check out the csib
Dave and troy
Audio intellect nj
Coda dealers
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Sory up feel that way but if iwas looking I wouldn’t care and if I got turned on to a new product that I didn’t know about do you think k that person may be happy?
Also the 507 is discontinued
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The OP’s question is Luxman vs Pass Labs amps. Based on the listening I have done, I prefer Luxman amps because they sound more musical to my ears.
However, in any case, I suggest you audition both amps and then decide. As noted in the responses you received, there are many other available amps.
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@bigkidz +1
It is so true that the sound is coming out of the system which contains a lot of things.
I try to replace my 4tc speaker cable with 12tc speaker cable, which is much heavy. I think it will be better sound, you know what? The sound is more tube like,but slow.
I can not stand with the slow sound and I changed back and found the original feeling. What feeling? Once I have the time, I won't stop listening.That is really magic things to me.
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OP:
I don't know that I'd say Ayre sound is fuller. It's ... different... almost alien. It sounds as if it sucks noise out of the room and everything is coming out of a perfect void. It's an effect you really have to listen to.
I like them a lot, but budget, opportunity and meters landed me with Luxman. :)
Best,
Erik
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Hi @bjesien
I’ve heard Pass in about a dozen situations but can only remember one specifically. I’ll explain in a bit.
At an audiophile’s home near San Francisco I got to hear a full Pass stack with Lawrence audio. It was OK. I mean, I’ve heard many Class D amps from IcePower or A/B from Parasound which would have equaled or bettered what I heard.
In another situation I was at a dealer in the greater Boston area, kind of in the boonies. Unremarkable music presentation is how I would describe it. Everyone around me was excited and I was... meh.
I also went to a show sponsored by Pass near the SF airport where in about 80% of the rooms the amps were Pass. I can’t remember everyone but I can say that the rooms that did not have Pass sounded a lot better. In general the pass sound was scratchy and lean to my ears.
The best I can tell from Stereophile measurements of Pass amps is that the euphonic distortion they are adding is absolutely not working for me. Maybe also a preference for big floppy woofers. I've never heard Pass with big horn loaded systems myself so I have to go by what I've been told.
I know my view is very much in the minority and often people take me as attacking Nelson himself, and I'm not doing any such thing. The gear just doesn't go anywhere I want to be.
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Since Hgeifman and Erik Squires have mentioned, I might just add a little here. It’s good to note that 2 persons who have made the comparison prefer the Luxman to the Pass Labs.
Although I did not have the opportunity to listen to a Pass Labs, the Luxman, to me is a splendid amp. In my case the L-590AXII. I truly believe it’s my endgame amp, the final destination so to speak. Although I may not have the privilege of trying everything out there (who does anyway), I’ve stopped searching already. Once you get the gear right, it will be out of the way as the music takes over.
Good luck with whatever you end up with, the Pass Labs, Luxman or something else. In the end, it’s the music that matters.
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Meo,
I chose the Pass Brand because after seeing Guttenbergs video of Nelson's
home I thought -If Pass uses Tannoys to voice his amps and I own Tannoys
the hard work is over. Gotta have Pass.
Meantime I hear Coda is supposed to be better. Never heard it.
As far as Luxman goes, I think they have upped their game in the last few years.
I never had both in my home to a/b. I did hear the $5k Lux Int paired with
Paradigm Founder $5k speakers in November. That was sound I could live with.
I hear your concerns about worrying over tube gear. Hum, wear. I had a Cary
120 amp and sold it to buy the Pass. Now I miss the tube sound so I may look into
the new ARC I-50 Integrated. Waiting for some legit reviews.
You might buy an XA 25 amp and see how you like it. Used they were selling at
$3k. To a/b you will need a to buy the Lux also.
Keep us posted please.
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I want to reiterate, I don't personally care if the OP buys a Pass or Luxman. I do think that in many situations the two are so different the OP will absolutely come out of that shoot out with a strong preference of their own.
These are just not amps you should buy based on anyone else's hearing.
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BTW, I have never heard an amp more full sounding than my current Luxman 507 which sounds closest to a D’Agostino to me. The extension from bass to treble is outstanding, but I never heard the class A equivalents. It may be worthwhile for the OP to compare the two.
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Thank you to all that have posted thus far. There's a lot of great feedback, experiences and suggestions that I'll take into consideration.
I should also add that I've recently owned the Luxman L-505ux so I have had a taste of the A/B Luxman sound vs Class A Luxman.
I very much like the Luxman sound. I find the mids to be wonderful and the vocals to be accurate and life-like. I guess what I'm yearning for is just a bit more extension in the vocals (maybe the vocal presentation to be slightly more forward in relation to the mids ???) and a bit more presence and warmth in the lower octaves, though Luxman is no slouch in this area.
I realize that Luxman and Pass are both great brands and produce wonderful products with different sound signatures. In a perfect world I would love the opportunity to A / B both products in-house. At this time, it is not possible to do.
I believe it has been somewhat eluded to in a couple prior posts but can anyone be more specific about the Pass sound (more specifically the Integrated's but also the overall house sound of Pass) such as:
1) is one frequency a little more pronounced than the others ie. is the treble / vocals a little more forward or recessed from the mids Or is the bass more prominent than the mids which might not make the mids sound as clear Or are the mids the dominant sound quality Etc...
2) what is the soundstage like in terms of width and depth
3) How would you describe the sound in terms of Hi-Fi vs Natural sounding (I recognize this is very subjective terminology but I think you get the gist of what I'm asking)
4) Do you find the sound to be veiled in anyway: No veil (extremely revealing, in the room with you experience), a thin veil (a thin film of dust or piece of paper in front of it), quite veiled (a blanket in front of it)
Answers to these or any other input you may have will help me to get a sense of the Pass sound presentation vs my experience with the Luxman brand.
Again, thank you to all that have so far taken the time to articulate your thoughts and experiences. Keep them coming!
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Language to say the sound, other people's language to say the sound, and you ask so specific point. It is not a easy job.
Some time the taste of sound make the purchase decision, and not any other things.
I am really think the big difference of these 2 brands is the taste of house sounds. Some choose pass,and others choose luxman. I personally love luxman, and their design have more understanding of the sound.
Go and listen by yourself is my suggestion.
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@erik_squires I appreciate the follow up. I know that feeling when you just can't understand why someone else would praise a product so highly. Have you had any experience with Sugden? I had a highly praised Sugden amp with my Nines for a trial and really found it awfully scratchy and cool sounding- not the consensus for sure. It did soundstage beautifully. Just curious. Maybe it's as simple as a certain type of resistor or something that we don't process the same.
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Hey @Bjesien
Pass makes no secret that he strives for including euphonic distortion in his amps, and it's in the Stereophile measurements too. I don't have a problem with that at all. My favorite of all time amps remain Conrad Johnson Premier 8 and 12s, so I'm the last person to suggest an amp should be antiseptic.
What I do believe is going on is that that signature of his just works really well for a lot of people, but just doesn't work for me. It's like pineapple on a pizza, and trying to determine the absolute right answer to that will never be a good idea. :)
Sorry, no experience with Sugden.
Erik
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I had both a Pass Labs Int 60 and a Luxman 590AXll at the same time running my Magico's I found the Pass to be smother and more liquid and much fuller in it's presentation. The Luxman was noticeably more detailed and had an effortlessness about it but I found the sound a little thinner. I could have happily lived with either of them but my first choice would be the Pass.
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Both very good choices OP and like the comment above I would surely be happy with either. I use the 509x and always remember this quote from a review of it:
For argument and sake of reference point, if you were to put Boulder amplifiers (and we still had the 1100 series here for comparison) as straight-up natural at 12 o’clock – adding nor subtracting nothing, with no sense of added tonal saturation, our reference Pass XS Pre/XA 200.8 is probably at about 10:30. With going to the left a bit on the warm/saturated side. The Luxman 900 series was about 11:30, with our tube references the PrimaLuna EVO 400 and VAC i170 coming in at about 9:00 and 9:30. I’d put the recent Esoteric integrated about 12:30 – slightly to the cold side, and the last few Simaudio amplifiers we’ve reviewed about 1:00 – even more clinical. The L-509x, like it’s larger separates has that same touch of warmth/saturation, without being slow or non-resolving. I wish I would have had the ability to listen to them both side-by-side and suspect that the L-509x comes very, very close to the 900 series in terms of sonic performance.
The 11:30 reference point spoke to me. Further Luxman supports HT bypass and at the time Pass didn’t, so easy one for me. Good luck, can’t go too wrong.
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The Pass .8 series is anything but lean sounding.
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I found the .8 series to be very lean. The X150.8 to be exact. No soul to the music at all. Very powerful and dynamic but thin and edgy with my Olympica iii.
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@swede58
@samzx12
What is your other equipment and comparison with?
For me Pass was lean in comparison the a Audio Research Ref 160s… using all ARC Ref equipment… my ID.
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My previous ARC REF110 was much more musical. Hell I'm borrowing a buddies Classe DR9 and it smokes the Pass in the midrange. My current McIntosh MC452 does also. My preamp is a PL EVO 400 and I changed tubes and even cables but the Pass still was very lean.
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Let us talk about soup.
Pass is just clear soup,some one love it,some one hate it. But in my word,Pass is a decent clear soup.
Luxman is a meat soup, just like borscht,some one love it,some one do not. They give you a lot of taste. I love it
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@ghdprentice
I compared an int250 against a Boulder 866 and an Accuphase E800 on Diptyque DP140 magnetostatic planar speakers.
The Pass amp was fuller sounding than the other two. Definitely not thin and edgy!
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