Ryder man, stating the obvious. The op asked a question about Pass house sound. I responded in an effort to help. Ease up on the judgement please.
Integrated Amplifiers - Luxman vs Pass Labs
Hello All,
This is my first post here at Audiogon.
My current amplifier is the Luxman L-550axii and my speakers are the Marten Django L and Coherent Audio 15 (coaxial speakers with 15" woofer and high efficiency of approximately 98db).
I'm contemplating making a move with my integrated. I'm considering the Luxman 590axii or one of the current Pass Labs Integrated's. I haven't had a chance to listen to the 590 and I've never listened to a Pass product before and the opportunity just doesn't present itself to be able to demo any at a dealer's or in-home.
I'm hoping those that have heard both the Luxman and any current Pass Integrated could chime in with their thoughts about them and the direction you would go given my speakers.
In the future, I may look at replacing the Coherent speakers with Audio Note AN-J or AN-E. Any experience out there with Luxman or Pass Labs and Audio Note speakers??
Thank you to all who chime in with your experience and thoughts!
71 responses Add your response
Two things: 1) Very few posters in this thread have had Luxman and Pass amps in their systems at the same time. Our aural memory is shockingly short - some studies suggest as short as 15 seconds. 2) Opinions are all over the map. When you are spending serious dollars on equipment, you need to listen for yourself, ideally comparing both brands in your system. Not always easy to do though. One thing worth noting is that Pass integrateds are bare bones affairs. Luxman’s feature set is better. Plus they look nicer IMHO. FWIW, I have no Luxman experience in my system. I own a Pass Labs XA30.5, driving high efficiency open baffle speakers (Spatial Audio M3 Sapphires). I enjoy this pairing so much that I would only move up the Pass Class A line, most likely just to the XA30.8. Incredible detail and a very nimble, delicate presentation (not sure why some say these Class A amps are “dark” or “slow”.) |
Hi tj-sully. Don’t get me wrong. Of course you are entitled to provide your experience on the Pass Labs amp which you own. I’m just providing information on the comparison between the Pass Labs and Luxman in response to the remark which you made about the transparency of the Pass. The reviews and YouTube video are perfectly valid as they are specific to this thread. The reviewer has compared both Luxman and Pass Labs integrateds while both of us only have experience with either one. Although useful impressions, it’s pretty much a one-sided affair.
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Hey Ryder, yes of course this thread is about integrated amplifiers. But the op is also asking about the overall house sound of Pass. I own Pass products so I thought would provide my own personal opinion. Not something from a review or YouTube video. My own. Cheers. |
I appreciate that the above impressions are based on the Pass Labs XA60.8 mono blocks and a Pass Labs XP-12 preamp. Nevertheless, these are separates and not the integrated that the OP is asking. Steve Huff has compared the Pass Labs INT250 and INT25(which he owned for a period of time) to the Luxman L-590AXII. Transparency to me represents detail, and the Luxman is said to sound more detailed than both Pass units. Reviews in the links below with their respective excerpts; Pass Labs INT-250 Review
"Luxman 590 AXII – Sweet, a little leaner than the Pass Labs with more detail so this is more for those who crave sharpness and detail over warmth and liquidity. Class A 30 watts but what it lacks in body compared to pass it makes up for in sweetness and dynamics. Made in Japan."
Pass Labs INT-25 Review
"Some may wonder what I think of the INT-25 compared to the Luxman 590AXII which is another beautiful heirloom quality integrated that comes in at around $9000. I could live with either but I would be happier with the Pass with my current speakers. The Luxman is more detailed, and has a thinner mid bass." |
@samzx12, so you are unequivocally saying all of the Pass X.8 series amps are not rich and full sounding?e.g. XA25, XA30.8, XA60.8, XA160.8, XS150, XS300 X150.8, X250.8, X260.8, X350.8, X600.8 You mentioned you had tried their cheapest class AB amp; I didn't know you have listened to the rest of the X.8 line... |
Hi folks. Great thread. I am pretty new around here but thought I’d chime in….with my experience using Pass Labs XA60.8 mono blocks and a Pass Labs XP-12 preamp. I do not have experience using a Pass integrated or any experience using the 500 series Luxman integrated products. To OP had some specific questions about Pass Labs that I can speak to from my experience in my room. 1) is one frequency a little more pronounced than the others? Nope. The sound is balanced across the frequency range. The lower frequencies (say 30-50Hz) are just as present as the highs and mids. The lows are clear right and fast, and for some, the sound may seem to emphasize or over express the bass region - but I believe this may be due to the amps ability to perform well in this frequency region. perhaps because the Pass amps are stable down to a single ohm may help in this regard. 2) what is the soundstage like in terms of width and depth in my room with speakers pulled out 7 feet from the wall and 3 feet from the sidewalks, the soundstage is deep and wide - almost 360. . Sometimes on I turn around thinking someone has opened the door behind me - but it was just the music! Trippy 3) How would you describe the sound in terms of Hi-Fi vs Natural sounding loaded question as this depends on many factors. But for me, on good recordings, listening to piano and voice helps determine the “naturalness” of the sound. But again, this is more a system synergy type evaluation. 4) Do you find the sound to be veiled in anyway? this is the kicker question. Here is where the Pass sound really shines for me. Transparency. I have never heard an amplifier bring absolute stunning transparency to the scene as Pass. It is spooky! how transparent Pass amps can be. Literally, hearing new details and delicacy in music I’ve heard a thousand times before. When I heard that …and felt it….I knew these amps were special beasts. saying all this..I agree with a few other comments about the Pass sound that is a bit against popular commentary. I do not find the Pass sound, in my system, in my room, to be warm and tube-like. Mayyyyybe…because the midrange is so pure and the top end delicate and clear that that’s why folks are making this comparison - but the overall transparency, I would say, is the dominant sensation where you can literally hear deep into recordings like i never have before. I’ve never heard tube systems give me this sensation - mind you I haven’t heard $20K tube setups in my room - so perhaps my experience is limited and tube systems really can sound extremely transparent with tight fast bass and stable down to 1 ohm. Did I just open. Can of worms.? Hahaha Good luck in your search. And as many folks have indicated - you can’t go wrong with either. 1st world problems… peace. |
Hi; whether you like the sound of the Pass amp or not is certainly for you to decide :) My point was simply that blanket statements like Pass sounds lean and then mention amplifiers with tubes in them as a comparison, or that the comparison was made with their lower class A bias X.8 amps, isn’t really fair.
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@ddafoe this was my result in my system comparing to other amps I’ve owned or heard. Was I shocked at the results yes I was. The 150.8 came highly recommended but my experience was not very good. The next owner felt the same. I’m not saying it’s a bad amp because it did some things very well but midrange in my system wasn’t one of them. |
Comparing Pass amplifiers to a couple AR tube amplifiers and then saying they sound lean doesn’t really prove the argument that Pass .8 amplifiers sound lean compared to most mainstream solid state amplifiers including Luxman, in my mind at least. Yea, I’ve owned a PrimaLuna integrated amplifier for a while when I owned Cornwalls 3s, and an all tube Mystique preamp too to try with my solid state amps, and both had and added lots of warmth and a fuller sound than either my XA250.8 or XA30.8, but I don’t find that unexpected or that they also would not have a fuller sound than C900+M900 Luxman combo I listened to. The class AB 150.8 is like 15 watts class A; if you want to hear the fuller sounding Pass listen to the XA.8 models. My Classe CA300 was very smooth and powerful but I don’t remember it being as full sounding as my 30.8; I never got a chance to compare them directly. I’ve heard Sugden amps over the years that have had a nice full sound. If my 30.8 is lean, then it would be interesting to hear how you describe the sound of say the Benchmark AHB2 :)
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Hi bigkidz: " Our reference equipment does not always sound the best. We learned that certain things just don’t work together to produce the best sound. Blanket statements like this one sounds that way compared to the other are completely useless. You have to try them in your system period." Well said. These are good words to live by in the audio world. Jeff |
Both very good choices OP and like the comment above I would surely be happy with either. I use the 509x and always remember this quote from a review of it:
For argument and sake of reference point, if you were to put Boulder amplifiers (and we still had the 1100 series here for comparison) as straight-up natural at 12 o’clock – adding nor subtracting nothing, with no sense of added tonal saturation, our reference Pass XS Pre/XA 200.8 is probably at about 10:30. With going to the left a bit on the warm/saturated side. The Luxman 900 series was about 11:30, with our tube references the PrimaLuna EVO 400 and VAC i170 coming in at about 9:00 and 9:30. I’d put the recent Esoteric integrated about 12:30 – slightly to the cold side, and the last few Simaudio amplifiers we’ve reviewed about 1:00 – even more clinical. The L-509x, like it’s larger separates has that same touch of warmth/saturation, without being slow or non-resolving. I wish I would have had the ability to listen to them both side-by-side and suspect that the L-509x comes very, very close to the 900 series in terms of sonic performance. The 11:30 reference point spoke to me. Further Luxman supports HT bypass and at the time Pass didn’t, so easy one for me. Good luck, can’t go too wrong. |
I had both a Pass Labs Int 60 and a Luxman 590AXll at the same time running my Magico's I found the Pass to be smother and more liquid and much fuller in it's presentation. The Luxman was noticeably more detailed and had an effortlessness about it but I found the sound a little thinner. I could have happily lived with either of them but my first choice would be the Pass. |
Hey @Bjesien Pass makes no secret that he strives for including euphonic distortion in his amps, and it's in the Stereophile measurements too. I don't have a problem with that at all. My favorite of all time amps remain Conrad Johnson Premier 8 and 12s, so I'm the last person to suggest an amp should be antiseptic. What I do believe is going on is that that signature of his just works really well for a lot of people, but just doesn't work for me. It's like pineapple on a pizza, and trying to determine the absolute right answer to that will never be a good idea. :) Sorry, no experience with Sugden.
Erik |
@erik_squires I appreciate the follow up. I know that feeling when you just can't understand why someone else would praise a product so highly. Have you had any experience with Sugden? I had a highly praised Sugden amp with my Nines for a trial and really found it awfully scratchy and cool sounding- not the consensus for sure. It did soundstage beautifully. Just curious. Maybe it's as simple as a certain type of resistor or something that we don't process the same. |
Language to say the sound, other people's language to say the sound, and you ask so specific point. It is not a easy job. Some time the taste of sound make the purchase decision, and not any other things. I am really think the big difference of these 2 brands is the taste of house sounds. Some choose pass,and others choose luxman. I personally love luxman, and their design have more understanding of the sound. Go and listen by yourself is my suggestion. |
Thank you to all that have posted thus far. There's a lot of great feedback, experiences and suggestions that I'll take into consideration. I should also add that I've recently owned the Luxman L-505ux so I have had a taste of the A/B Luxman sound vs Class A Luxman. I very much like the Luxman sound. I find the mids to be wonderful and the vocals to be accurate and life-like. I guess what I'm yearning for is just a bit more extension in the vocals (maybe the vocal presentation to be slightly more forward in relation to the mids ???) and a bit more presence and warmth in the lower octaves, though Luxman is no slouch in this area. I realize that Luxman and Pass are both great brands and produce wonderful products with different sound signatures. In a perfect world I would love the opportunity to A / B both products in-house. At this time, it is not possible to do.
I believe it has been somewhat eluded to in a couple prior posts but can anyone be more specific about the Pass sound (more specifically the Integrated's but also the overall house sound of Pass) such as: 1) is one frequency a little more pronounced than the others ie. is the treble / vocals a little more forward or recessed from the mids Or is the bass more prominent than the mids which might not make the mids sound as clear Or are the mids the dominant sound quality Etc... 2) what is the soundstage like in terms of width and depth 3) How would you describe the sound in terms of Hi-Fi vs Natural sounding (I recognize this is very subjective terminology but I think you get the gist of what I'm asking) 4) Do you find the sound to be veiled in anyway: No veil (extremely revealing, in the room with you experience), a thin veil (a thin film of dust or piece of paper in front of it), quite veiled (a blanket in front of it)
Answers to these or any other input you may have will help me to get a sense of the Pass sound presentation vs my experience with the Luxman brand.
Again, thank you to all that have so far taken the time to articulate your thoughts and experiences. Keep them coming! |
Meo, I chose the Pass Brand because after seeing Guttenbergs video of Nelson's home I thought -If Pass uses Tannoys to voice his amps and I own Tannoys the hard work is over. Gotta have Pass.
Meantime I hear Coda is supposed to be better. Never heard it.
As far as Luxman goes, I think they have upped their game in the last few years. I never had both in my home to a/b. I did hear the $5k Lux Int paired with Paradigm Founder $5k speakers in November. That was sound I could live with.
I hear your concerns about worrying over tube gear. Hum, wear. I had a Cary 120 amp and sold it to buy the Pass. Now I miss the tube sound so I may look into the new ARC I-50 Integrated. Waiting for some legit reviews.
You might buy an XA 25 amp and see how you like it. Used they were selling at $3k. To a/b you will need a to buy the Lux also.
Keep us posted please.
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Since Hgeifman and Erik Squires have mentioned, I might just add a little here. It’s good to note that 2 persons who have made the comparison prefer the Luxman to the Pass Labs. Although I did not have the opportunity to listen to a Pass Labs, the Luxman, to me is a splendid amp. In my case the L-590AXII. I truly believe it’s my endgame amp, the final destination so to speak. Although I may not have the privilege of trying everything out there (who does anyway), I’ve stopped searching already. Once you get the gear right, it will be out of the way as the music takes over. Good luck with whatever you end up with, the Pass Labs, Luxman or something else. In the end, it’s the music that matters.
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Hi @bjesien I’ve heard Pass in about a dozen situations but can only remember one specifically. I’ll explain in a bit. At an audiophile’s home near San Francisco I got to hear a full Pass stack with Lawrence audio. It was OK. I mean, I’ve heard many Class D amps from IcePower or A/B from Parasound which would have equaled or bettered what I heard. In another situation I was at a dealer in the greater Boston area, kind of in the boonies. Unremarkable music presentation is how I would describe it. Everyone around me was excited and I was... meh. I also went to a show sponsored by Pass near the SF airport where in about 80% of the rooms the amps were Pass. I can’t remember everyone but I can say that the rooms that did not have Pass sounded a lot better. In general the pass sound was scratchy and lean to my ears. The best I can tell from Stereophile measurements of Pass amps is that the euphonic distortion they are adding is absolutely not working for me. Maybe also a preference for big floppy woofers. I've never heard Pass with big horn loaded systems myself so I have to go by what I've been told. I know my view is very much in the minority and often people take me as attacking Nelson himself, and I'm not doing any such thing. The gear just doesn't go anywhere I want to be. |
OP: I don't know that I'd say Ayre sound is fuller. It's ... different... almost alien. It sounds as if it sucks noise out of the room and everything is coming out of a perfect void. It's an effect you really have to listen to. I like them a lot, but budget, opportunity and meters landed me with Luxman. :) Best,
Erik |
@bigkidz +1 It is so true that the sound is coming out of the system which contains a lot of things. I try to replace my 4tc speaker cable with 12tc speaker cable, which is much heavy. I think it will be better sound, you know what? The sound is more tube like,but slow. I can not stand with the slow sound and I changed back and found the original feeling. What feeling? Once I have the time, I won't stop listening.That is really magic things to me.
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Freaking Vultures. We had the 507 and the coda csib had a bigger sound stage and greater clarity This unique integrated amp Is the same smplifier as the award winning .8 For nearly the same price as just the powe amp so it’s like getting a free preamp
The integrated can be ordered as a 150 watt CLASS A amp with the first 8 watts pure class A
If you need more power you can have the amp rebiased To provide 400 watts of power Rhe coda is made in the usa with a 10 year warranty
If you are looking for a killer integrated at a great price
Check out the csib Dave and troy Audio intellect nj Coda dealers |
re: Dave and troy Given that the OP quite clearly described his interest in just two brands, I find it off-putting that you would barge in and attempt to denigrate one of them with a comparison to one that you happen to sell. I don't doubt that the Coda Csib is a very good amp, but the OP wasn't asking for other options, and your approach reeks of the type of aggressive selling techniques that would likely turn off many prospective customers. |
The Coda is great but for the money the lights should turn off when you power it down. Looks a bit like a Star Wars prop but a favorite of mine so far. I thought the lack of a volume knob would bother me but over time it's nice to be able to fine tune. It's one I'm sad to have sold. If anyone has a slightly used model or demo please message me. |
We had the 507 and the coda csib had a bigger sound stage and greater clarity This unique integrated amp Is the same smplifier as the award winning .8 For nearly the same price as just the powe amp so it’s like getting a free preamp
The integrated can be ordered as a 150 watt CLASS A amp with the first 8 watts pure class A
If you need more power you can have the amp rebiased To provide 400 watts of power Rhe coda is made in the usa with a 10 year warranty
If you are looking for a killer integrated at a great price
Check out the csib Dave and troy Audio intellect nj Coda dealers |
The 590AXII has been discontinued. A new version is coming out in the future w/many of the upgrades of the 595SE. I heard the 595 back in November at my local dealers store. Jeff Sigmund of Luxman America was there demoing the integrated w/a pair of 10K Paradigm Persona floor standers. I would check around and see if any 590's are available. They are being sold to acquire the 595. |
Me three. That really surprises me, but i've not really heard that product. It was mentioned that that integrated is speaker dependent. I wonder why? His designs typically have minimal global feedback, if any, and sufficient drive current. I will say that i -- for this reason among others _ i always work extra hard to have amps (or amp sections in integrateds) that essentially don't care about the speaker.
Anyway good luck with your quest. I dont know your speakers but your cursory overview gives me puase and make sme think maybe they ought o be job #1
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I think as we all know & many here said before, the amp / speaker pairing is critical both in terms of efficiency / power needs, actual speaker impedance & of course, your taste. I've owned a Luxman integrated amp before, enjoyed & appreciated tits sound & build quality. I recently bought a Rogers High Fidelity EFH 200 Mark II tube integrated amp & love it! Very powerful but also has great detail, nuance, depth & seemingly very high build quality handmade in MA. Roger's products are pricey but I think still a good value for you get along w/ a lifetime warranty. If you can try one, it might be just what you're looking for. I think they have a 30 day trial period as well. |
