How to make the Focal Kanta No. 2 speakers sing?

Hi Donald,

Very common problem. You have two choices, acoustic treatment of the room or a room control preamp like the Thrinnv Amethyst or DEQX Pre 4. Ideally you would do both. First you need absorption panels at the major first reflection points. You find them with a mirror since sound and light bounce the same way. Sit in your listening position and have a helper hold a mirror at your eye level. Have them move the mirror across the front wall from behind the left speaker to the right. When you see the speaker in the mirror put a masking tape marker on the wall behind the mirror. Now continue moving towards the right and when you see the right channel speaker in the mirror mark the wall there. Now do the same maneuver on both side walls. These are the four main first reflection points and you need to put sound absorption panels at these locations. There are also first reflection points on the floor and ceiling which may need to be treated. This will get rid of some or even all of that "shoutiness" which we call sibilance, the bane of residential HiFi systems. If this does not calm it a room control preamp will. They will also give you a programmable subwoofer crossover should you ever feel the need for more slam. 

+1 @mijostyn 

I had speakers with the same problem. I treated the room a lot and also looked into warmer DAC's. The problem was, in the end, the tweeters. That was only be solved with other speakers. Hopefully you don't need such a drastic solution.

TLDR indeed.

First, thanks for all the good info — most helpful and appreciated as most people asking for advice here don’t provide nearly enough to go on (dig ur handle here BTW)! Agree with treating the room no matter what else you decide to do. IMHO you have a bit of a mismatch with the EverSolo as a pre and Audiophonics class D driving the Kantas and not surprised at all that you’re hearing what you do, so I’d either change the speakers or the electronics. The simplest solution might be a hybrid integrated amp from the likes of Unison Research Unico, Pathos, etc., which at your budget is what I’d do if you don’t want to change the speakers. That way you stop using the streamer as a pre and get the benefits of tubes in the preamp stage that don’t require much maintenance and give you the flexibility to “tune” your system by swapping tubes. Or, as you mention, you could just add a tube preamp and also get much better results. I’d also upgrade to a better standalone DAC when budget allows.  BTW, I forbid you from inserting an AVR into your 2-channel signal path so please just take that option off the table.

If you’re open to changing speakers Joseph Audio, ProAc, and Usher are a few I’d recommend hearing as they have great detail but they don’t deliver it as starkly as the Kantas and likely have some more warmth in the mids as well. Ok, just throwing’ some stuff out there FWIW and hope it’s somewhat useful. Best of luck in getting the sound more to your liking however you decide to get there.

Simple fact: Kanta's are bright sounding and thin as you hear. Don't waste your money on room improvements. If you want more drive and warmth in the system, it will be your amp. I would dump your speakers prior to spending that kind of cash, it will take a lot of money to make those speakers warm. 

Thanks for the welcoming tone and also your suggestions here! I will look them all up and see what they are about.

The room serves as a family living room and not a man cave, sadly. So the acoustic treatment can't be too obtrusive. I only have absorbing panels on the front wall behind the speakers ATM. But I will walk further down this path. I've thought about contacting GIK acoustics and hear what they recommend through their "free acoustic advice", with the risk of getting just generic tips. Perhaps there are other goto providers that aren't too fancy/pricey but do the job? I live in Sweden/Europe BTW.

I also believe as you point out, soix, that a middle priced AVR probably is not really the way to go for a 2 channel system.

The sound characteristics of the Kantas when using the Yamaha AVR as amp is quite the same compared to the Purifi Class D amp and also a cheaper XTZ Class D amp I borrowed from a friend for a period. When using the Yamaha AVR asm amp the differences were more lower base (too much), less mid range (too weak) and a bit harsher sound overall. So I mean something more drastic has to be done.

Roxy, I'll try to remember to write a shorter TLDR section for you next time.

@donald_dac , 

Good grief dude, it looks like you are about to go down some major rabbit holes and continue resurfacing with  disgruntlement and vexation of spirit, simply because you haven't explored what you already have in its entirety. Fortunately, you have a nice piece of Yamaha gear that could deliver you and provide salvation in these times of darkness.

Step a) Unplug the eversolo and set it aside for now.

Step b) Unplug the Audiophonics Class D crap and sell it to a Class D crap lover on Audiosciencereview.

Step c) Plug your front speakers directly into your Yamaha Class AB RX-A2080. The RX-A2080 is a step lower than their former flagship receiver (RX-A3080) and would possibly have many of the feature sets in their former flagship prepro (CX-A5200). As far as your 2 channel music listening goes, that receiver is a full featured/polished up streamer+good DAC implementation+great preamp sections and.... poweramp sections which are a bit weak (as is typical of multichannel receivers). Your Eversolo and the Audiophonics crap are not gonna beat it for 2 channel listening. I don't know much about your specific Focal speaker, but Focals i've heard are generally abrasively bright with thin mids, etc (like some of the ear abusing hometheater Klipsch speakers).

The following will also be a very important exercise for you to fully study/understand the type of sound signature you like...the signature that pleases you most without spending money...

Step d) Run YPAO calibration correctly for your hometheater. First mic location with tripod will be at your primarily listening position/sweetspot. Set additional positions within 1 foot of this primary location (your sweet spot is all that matters). At the end of the cal, disable "YPAO volume" and "enhancer".

Step e) Go into your configuration, YPAO would have have set your EQ to "YPAO flat", "YPAO natual", etc. That is for entry level users. You would go into MANUAL PEQ.

Step f) Use the manual PEQ to warm things up and improve spatial qualities without contributing to shoutiness, reducing brightness, etc. The perception of warm, chunky, chocolatey, delicious, etc can vary in frequency band for different types of guys....So try the following as a starting point, an example....
~99hz, Q=0.5, +2 dB
~198hz, Q=0.79, +1db
1khz, Q=0.79, +2.5
8k, Q=0.5, -1db
16k, Q=0.5, -1 db

If it is still shouty, pull the 8k band a bit lower with low Q's still....You see this type of utility? Sky is the limit on how you change the sound of a speaker with full featured PEQ and examining the sound you like.

Step g) Moving on....You will have "pattern settings" (saving all your specific settings) in your receiver. Set pattern 1 for specific hometheater settings and pattern 2 for 2 channel stereo. In 2 channel stereo (if you wanna be more of a purist), don't setup a subwoofer crossover in its bass management module. Run the 2 fronts "LARGE" and turn on "extra bass", which will dovetail your subs in where your mains drop off. Manually set the subwoofer crossover knob on sub to around 60hz or so. The Yamaha will do the rest/do a seamless blend.

Step h) After you get satisfactory results from your PEQ experiments and the full featureset/utility level of your receiver, you will also have a much better understanding of the type of sound you like. Now, get meaty Class AB or Class A power amps for your receiver's preouts into your 2 front speakers for music.  I would recommend preouts to a pair of the Schiit TYR monoblocks for your fronts, i.e., a weird type of Class Aish topology with gobs of power that sounds exquisite.

After you fully read your Yamaha's manual cover to cover and understand the insanity levels of its feature set and utility, you may never be able to let it go. At the least, it is a very good experimentation tool. At that point, upgrade to a Yamaha prepro, either get a used CX-A5200 or wait a minute for the upcoming flagship prepro (CX-A5300 or whatever else they may plan to name it).

When you go into purist gear, you will lose all such flexibility and just keep diving from rabbit hole to rabbit hole like most dudes around here...unless you've fully experimented with what type of sound signature you really like and become surgical with the type of purist gear you get.

 Good luck.

that receiver is a full featured/polished up streamer+good DAC implementation+great preamp sections and.... poweramp sections which are a bit weak (as is typical of multichannel receivers)

@deep_333 So, a $1700 AVR has a great preamp section???  I beg to differ, and a good stereo preamp is absolutely critical.  I’m a fan of Yammy AVRs, but no $1700 AVR has a “great” preamp section.  Period. 

@soix 

+1

If I were you, with those very fine speakers, I would want to hear if a tube amp in place of the Class D would be more to your liking. I’d consider something like a Rogue Cronus Magnum personally.

Note I run good quality Class D amps on all my systems personally but being familiar with the Focal sound that particular combo might be a bit too much in the manner you describe  for many. 

In my experience, Focal speakers are excessively sensitive to amplifier current capabilities.

The Kanta’s, like many of Focal’s floor standers with dual woofers, suffers from excessively low impedance in the mid bass. IMHO, a bad match for most tube amps. They need careful positioning relative to the rear wall to get maximum reinforcement and a solid amplifier.

Other positioning tips are to minimize toe-in and increase mid/treble absorbers in the room which will better balance out the speaker.  Those inverted domes have resonances which make them sound best off-axis.  You'll know you did it right when you go from having a Left, Center and Right image to an image that is seamless from left to right without a gap. 

https://www.stereophile.com/content/focal-kanta-no2-loudspeaker-measurements

I’m not saying Focal and a tube amp are a technical match made in heaven in that tube amps seldom are for the impedance reasons mentioned, but I do think the tonal results might be of interest in this particular case as described.

Individuals tend to prefer many different flavors of sound, like flavors of ice cream. The best technical matches do not always win as is often cited here, although personally I tend to levitate towards things done right for the best chances of good results.

Alternately I have heard Focal sound very good with Krell SS amplification. Also Audio Research tube amplification (almost always a safe bet). Rogue is essentially a more cost effective alternate to ARC. A hybrid integrated like Rogue Pharoah is another I am familiar with that I would consider were it me. No impedance issues there.

I suspect Pharoah should sound very good in most any setup. It was awesome demoed to me with both Magnepan and Sonus Faber which tells me Focal would be no problem whatsoever.

@deep_333 So, a $1700 AVR has a great preamp section??? I beg to differ, and a good stereo preamp is absolutely critical. I’m a fan of Yammy AVRs, but no $1700 AVR has a “great” preamp section. Period.

Every dude has to start somewhere...But, as expected, @soix didn’t read the full post or even understood what it was about.... and assumes that a 1700 Yamaha AVR that he never played with has an abyssmal preamp section. He also didn’t read the part where i mentioned that the dude’s upgrade path should go to a Yamaha flagship prepro (since he has a hybrid stereo/multichannel setup), which holds its own against any preamp out there. It is indeed a possibility that soix knows nothing about the performance/value offered in Yamaha gear.

For reference, I have Yamaha’s flagship prepro, a 10k purist preamp (Yamaha C5000) and a 20k preamp (Luxman C900) currently. I have had the Gryphons and the Esoterics and the whatever else in the past...I sure as sht am not gonna suggest to a guy with a Focal Kanta that he should get a 20k preamp.

What cream preamp were you gonna suggest to a dude with a Focal Kanta soix? 40k? 80k? Gryphon? Boulder? Do you even know what his budget is soix?

I don’t know about the new Focal line; but  McIntosh and Focal was a good    
match  many years ago.

And you will not loose much money , if you resell McIntosh  .

Audioclassics  has used McIntosh gears.         
https://www.audioclassics.com

Have the speakers been broken in yet? Your description sounds very much like many speakers sound right out of the box; a few hundred hours later, they may sound much different.... 

Good point to determine if speakers are broken in yet. Could be that if not.

He also didn’t read the part where i mentioned that the dude’s upgrade path should go to a Yamaha flagship prepro (since he has a hybrid stereo/multichannel setup), which holds its own against any preamp out there.

@deep_333 So, a $2700 pre pro holds its own against any preamp out there?  No. Just…no.  That’s just silly talk.  There’s no way a $2700 pre pro can match the parts quality, power supply, etc. of the better stereo preamps out there.  No way.  And yes I did read and understand your prior post where you said the Yamaha RXA2080 has a “great” preamp section.  It does not and you’re just flat out wrong for saying it.  You can talk all you want, but your words are your words, and maybe you should just choose them more carefully when spewing out stuff here.

It's really good to get input from people with different experiences and preferences. Love it.

@deep_333 Thanks for the extensive Yamaha PEQ guide. I will give the Yamaha another 2 channel chance based on your tips, thanks for the push!

I have found that YPAO hasn't worked out for me though. I always ended up with measuring tape and manual PEQ settings, as you point out too. The other PEQ modes are not very good. Especially the subs needed manual setting as described. The enhancer gave me phase problems with the subs so it's turned off, as well as the other features you mention.

REW room simulator is a good tool, especially to identify the 32 Hz room mode I have. I have a Umik-1 as well but haven't overcome the hurdle to start measuring properly. Also on the todo list!

YPAO is not up to the same level as Dirac as I understand, thus a Marantz AVR was mentioned as a possible upgrade. Haven't heard one in action though...

I will do a shootout with the Eversolo/Purifi amp and the Yamaha with and without Purifi amp and see where that puts me.

The Eversolo is quite nice BTW, especially with the latest update which provided an impressive spectrum analyzer. Reminds me of my first stereo system I got in 1992, the Sony MHC 2600 which also had a spectrum analyzer 😀 Good memories from that one.

@soix I see the point here with the Yamaha AVR not having the best pre amp/ Dacs etc. It's a good allrounder with lots of functionality and is probably ok but not at the level of separates in a higher price range. That's also why I've been looking at a 2 channel path in parallell to the multichannel path.

@erik_squires I've also understood that the Kantas are current hungry despite they quite high sensitivity and need a capable amp to perform.

@larsman @mapman The speakers are indeed broken in and are 3-4 years old. I got them used 15 months ago or so and I have 1000+ playing hours myself on them. Some really loud hours as well, so they should be as soft and mellow as they could be.

@erik_squires Accurate well thought out and researched post. I own and love the Kanta Two,s. Your absolutely right on all counts and a tube amp should be a bad choice for this speakers impedance challenges. However I use them with both a Classe solid state amp and a Prima Luna Evo 400 tube amp and prefer the sound of the tubes with them. You can never tell what’ll work till you give it try right? Synergy ,room , individual tastes, so much goin on with this crazy hobby.

@soix 

+1

You seem that to think that as you keep spending on the powersupply, caps, parts quality or whatever (facepalm) till you hit a 100k, sonic nirvana will continue to flow expansively like the Niagara beyond any limits of perceptibility.
 

@deep_333 I think better parts quality properly implemented will outperform a properly implemented preamp with cheap parts.  Yeah, parts matter, and they matter a lot.  Compare an ARC preamp to an upgraded SE version or a McCormack amp upgraded by SMcAudio with better parts and you learn that lesson right quick.

You seem to not understand the diminishing returns or the limitations of a preamp section itself in a chain, a treated room, etc (no matter how much you spend)…To me, the extent of what a preamp can achieve in a chain ain’t all that much (as you seem to imagine).

Well, you seem to not understand the importance of a preamp in the context of overall system performance, and no one with any level of experience that you profess to have would ever say what you said.  And it’s not what I imagine but what I’ve heard in my system, and IME a preamp is one of the most critical components in a system.  If you think a preamp doesn’t achieve all that much in the context of a system I think you’re absolutely mistaken and that you’ll find most here very much on the opposite side of that argument. 

@donald_dac , On the same note, don't be fooled by the misinformation and the fact that  some of these insanely featured high quality prepros are still offered at "relatively affordable" prices (compared to purist gear). They are heavily subsidized for you by the motherload of hometheater people around the world and the system integrators who deploy them in houses. Yes, they come big with learning curves and its typically system integrators who deploy them for a pretty penny. 

If these things were marketed to purist audiophiles alone, they would cost magnitudes more. If cars weren't subsidized for you by the market scale, i.e., every other guy buying a car out there with a loan....a lotta guys couldn't afford cars and would walk everywhere...similar concept.... 

On the same note, don't be fooled by the misinformation and the fact that  some of these insanely featured high quality prepros are still offered at "relatively affordable" prices (compared to purist gear). They are heavily subsidized for you by the motherload of hometheater people

Well that’s just utter crap.  If a mass market prepro incorporated anywhere near the level of parts quality of a good stereo preamp its price would go up several times, which is exactly why the better prepros out there that actually do a decent job as a stereo preamp cost multiples of what mass market units go for.  You’re totally misrepresenting what economies of scale can accomplish, and saying a $2700 prepro can hold its own against the better stereo preamps out there is seriously misguided and is misleading the OP here.  That you can somehow use DSP to cover up the warts of a component designed to offer a host of features and meet a low price point is just polishing the turd, but it’s still a turd. 

What cream preamp were you gonna suggest to a dude with a Focal Kanta soix? 40k? 80k? Gryphon? Boulder? Do you even know what his budget is soix?

That's some high-school-level and tendentious trolling. Bad form.

+1 @soix 

@deep_333 You never got a chance to post those pics of your two channel system that incorporates Bache, Id still love to see that setup, thanks in advance.

Drinking raw eggs will help singing practice.

At least one audiophile have to try that tweak on speakers and see if they will start singing.

Well that’s just utter crap. If a mass market prepro incorporated anywhere near the level of parts quality of a good stereo preamp its price would go up several times, which is exactly why the better prepros out there that actually do a decent job as a stereo preamp cost multiples of what mass market units go for.

@soix , Sure, spend 60k on a Trinnov prepro. You will also pay/get a lifetime of free customer support anytime (US labor rates). I highly doubt a dude like you will still get anywhere with it without hiring a system integrator who knows what he is doing.

Hey guys, is there any way on this forum to put one clueless barking bozo (who follows me around on threads like a rabid creature)  in a permanent ignore blackhole?

Yep, it’s the speakers. No doubt about it. 
 

Ship them to me and I will dispose of them.

Hey guys, is there any way on this forum to put one clueless barking bozo (who follows me around on threads like a rabid creature) in a permanent ignore blackhole?

Yeah. Stop posting clueless and silly crap like what you’ve been posting here. That’ll work.

I've never owned Focal speakers but have heard them demonstrated at dealers and at shows. These include Kantas and Sopras and what I heard aligns with your experience that they sounded bright and thin and very much in your face. So my conclusion is ditch the speakers and look at something in the Sonus Faber range or Josephs and even electrostatics or planars from the likes of Martin Logan or Magneplanar

You can block anyone by going to your settings page 

Easy, drive them with an amplifier that's two ohm stable to deal with the impedance dip. 

Hegal sounds very good with them  detailed and a bit warmer.

I have Kanta 2's in an all tube 2 channel system. Carver Crimson 275 amp, PrimaLuna preamp and Allinic H-5500 phono stage. Vinyl and CD's sound fantastic. Your speakers are definitely not your weakest link. At a minimum, dump the Class D amp for a decent tube amp and you'll feel the difference. 

Misogyny, that is an incredible response.  You must have a lot of knowledge.

Donald, I noticed your units of measurement were in metric.  Do you live in Canada or Europe.

Great discussion.  There is a lot of knowledge in this group.

You can block anyone by going to your settings page

Good grief, i found it, thanks...Now, i can only hope that I am isolated from this one dude (either a genuine barking imbecile or peddler for some brands/paid pied piper, whatever he may be).

@deep_333 You never got a chance to post those pics of your two channel system that incorporates Bache, Id still love to see that setup, thanks in advance.

@bikeboy52 The virtual systems module has been broken for months. I can neither upload my system nor view anyone's system. IT guy around here must be on a permanent vacation.

I agree with Erik that tube gear is not a good match with most Focal speakers due to their erratic impedance curves. Kevin Deal shills his Prima Luna gear as being a good match with Focal speakers, but he doesn’t use Prima Luna gear to drive his 94 dB Focal Grand Utopias (he uses very high wattage and expensive tube Pathos amps).Macintosh solid state might warm the Kanta 2s up a bit, and several subs would help fill in the wimpy low frequencies. In the end I think they are a poorly balanced speaker. They are indeed thin and bright. I am a fan of the Electra and Sopra collections, but not Kanta.

It’s the tweeter. I had the Sopras 2 and they bled my ears till I sold them

I have some loss of hearing in the high frequencies, so the tweeter isn’t the issue for me. I’m led to believe it is the flax drivers and the lower frequencies in the Kanta line that are the weak link.

When I heard the focal Kanta , I did not hear any brightness and thin sound. I remember the gear are esoteric , all storm series power cables, and wireworld ic and speakers cable.I like them a lot.

For a high quality, effective, inexpensive, sonically quiet approach to the problem:

https://www.schiit.com/products/lokius

I  have focal scala v2 with ARC amp and preamp tubes 

No issue there

i have also used same speakers with CJ 27A amp and Cj preamp great warm sound with jazz , vocal  LPs

i have used big boy Mc1.2kw in past  no complaints but SS is not my cup of tea.

@donald_dac 

As a few others have said I also think the Kanta 2s are a fine speakers that can sound great. We have Kanta 3s in our home theatre with the Kanta center channel and Kanta 1s for surrounds and they all sound great. We have the Marantz 8805 processor with a McIntosh 8207 amp.  We have also heavily treated the room with Vicoustics panels ( located in Portugal ) and some Gik panels.  It’s probably more panels than you would want to do but it has worked out well in our room. You can see the room in my details section. Vicoustics also does a free analysis for you. Good luck whichever path you take ! 

Get a parasound JC5 amp it works amazing with Kanta’s because they need BALLS to drive and make any bass.
preamp do not do parasound do the Holo Audio Preamp forget the Schiit crap it’s total junk on amplification.
your cables are also probably horrible get Kubala Sosna Temptation level for speaker cables and interconnects.
Or spend $15800 get a Mola Mola Kula integrated or a spend 10k get the Modwright integrated. Your problem is you’re looking at complete midfi affordable stuff to play Nicer focal speakers because you want to beat the system psychologically. You should always spend more money on the Electronics than the speakers in your system!

I took a closer look at the directivity plots for this speaker, and while I stand by everything I said, there’s some additional thoughts:

This is, generally, a narrow directivity speaker, but the 5-8kHz range has a wider dispersion than the rest, while the top octaves are even narrower. So, yes to minimizing toe-in but also they will benefit a great deal from thin wall treatments to the sides. This will greatly reduce that excess 5-8kHz energy in the room, relative to the rest of the speaker. This should warm them up but also greatly improve imaging. The room treatment in this case is going to be a significantly better and more nuanced solution than simply applying EQ to the problem. Fixing it via EQ also means reducing on-axis performance. OTOH, if you are going to reduce toe in or eliminate it, then an EQ may be just the finishing touch.

If you feel this reduces the signature Focal air you may wish to add diffusion between the speakers to compensate.

Honestly I’m a little surprised at how well that large mid functions up to 3 kHz.

Just a reminder that technically "warmth" is associated with ~ 150-250hz frequency range which is the upper range of what is considered bass. Worth noting if one is to attempt to add "warmth" . A sub or two properly mixed in might be called for otherwise perhaps some simple equalization or DSP.

Also 2-6 khz range is high midrange and  associated with "crunch and edge" so too much of that is not a good thing.

I’d take a sound meter or good sound meter app to the problem with some streamed white noise to determine what is really going on. Adjectives alone may not be the best way to properly identify and resolve the issue.